The moment U came 2 town

My life changed all around

I always loved this song and thought it was a beautiful short piece of work, that doesnt get talked about quite often. Love the intro. In the live version there is some vinyl sample he used perhaps from some showtune. Claire brings in those dramatic orchestrations later used for the Ladder. A very warm track I always loved even when it was in very bad circulating sound.

Love the version with Prince on vocals at the birthday gig, with the 'ooowoo' and atmospheric synths at the start. It's a great, punchy synth-laden funk-rock song and it fits perfectly back to back with Roadhouse Garden (would have made a great one-two album opener). The studio version with Wendy's vocals (edit: Lisa's even), Clare's orchestra and all the extra W&L work doesn't really do it for me.

[Edited 7/6/15 10:30am]

I love the instrumentation on Wendy's version, but Prince has the vocals for me. It's a beautifuly crafted song and the lyrics are amoungst his best.

Is it Wendy? Crap, I was sure it was Lisa

paisleypark4 said:

EDIT: It seems that Novi Novog may not have been involved in the 1984 orchestral overdub sessions. Perhaps "musicians under the direction of David Coleman" might be more accurate and comprehensive of all involved in those sessions.

.

.

It seems that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about this song and its circulating bootleg formats.

.

The more recently leaked recording with Lisa Coleman's vocals, I believe is merely a mix-down or a guide sent to Claire Fischer to add his orchestral parts (with Prince perhaps intending to provide, or later recording, a more poetic and melodramatic delivery of the lyrics after the newly assembled version was completed, since these modifications changed the dynamics of the song entirely).

.

It appears to date from sometime towards the very end of the Revolution era, circa mid-1986.

.

Certainly, this is not a fully fleshed out effort in this leak, nor are all of the multitracks involved, and the song presumably progressed further and in a more completed form beyond what this leak suggests before the Revolution disbanded.

.

Likewise, without all the multitracks and proper mixing, it is presumably not even the full sense of what the song was, at the very moment in time this leak is derived from. In fact, the leak is so 'crippled', we can only begin to speculate about what the song in this 1986 configuration must really sound like.

.

Why is Lisa Coleman on the 'lead' vocal on this leak? Likely since W&L were assigned duties to update or help complete a number of these earlier tracks late 1984-Summer 1986 while P laid down new material or pursued other ventures. This 'lead vocal' seems only a one-take, perfunctory, unserious one meant to serve as a stand-in or guide of some sort.

.

I certainly do not believe Lisa was ever meant to appear on lead vocals on a completed version of this track.

.

'All Day, All Night', 'Baby, You're a Trip', 'Witness for the Prosecution', 'We Can Funk', 'Neon Telephone', 'Teacher, Teacher', 'Strange Relationship' and 'Wonderful Ass' are some other languishing or set-aside tracks that underwent their care and oversight to help update or complete during roughly this same time period.

.

This track, along with 'Roadhouse Garden', received a full David Coleman, Suzie Katayama, Novi Novog orchestral strings treatment in late 1984, similar in manner to the overdubs made to the track 'Purple Rain' (and for that matter, 'Take Me With U', 'Next Time Wipe the Lipstick Off Your Collar', etc.).

.

These additions were most likely recorded during the same set of sessions that such overdubs were recorded for 'Pop Life' and 'Raspberry Beret'.

.

The more recently leaked bootleg mentioned above, I very strongly believe, has been partially tweaked or faked by the bootleggers themselves.

.

All of the orchestration properly appearing on it is a previously unheard 1985/1986 Claire Fischer contribution to the track that apparently was to supplant the earlier Coleman/Katayama/Novog strings work recorded in late 1984. That is not in dispute, and it is one of the most legitimately interesting things about the leak (and something I think we all should have assumed existed, given that known studio session dates for this track have been documented well into 1986).

.

The bootleggers, however, seem to have added the famous little bit of C/K/N 'Our Destiny' strings that we have known for a long time to have been recycled for use at the beginning of 'The Ladder' (also the high hat is part of that original 'Our Destiny' segue into 'Roadhouse Garden', as well).

.

Unfortunately, the bootleggers evidently lack the limited musical sophistication necessary, or assume their audience lacks the mental wherewithal, to recognize that this particular snippet of strings logically and structurally matches only the 'I Want You, I Want You' pleading at the end of the original 1984 recording (again, serving as as a fade-out and the segue point at the end into 'Roadhouse Garden').

.

The bootleggers, instead, dubbed it in themselves at some random point towards the beginning of the song. And it stands out like a sore thumb in contrast to the Claire Fischer orchestration on this 1986 version, not to mention having a discernable difference in audio quality (taken, it would seem, and artificially digitially downgraded a bit, from the ATWIAD album), and not to mention that it is the only C/K/N orchestration rearing its head in the entire leak.

.

It seems to have been added only to make this odd and somewhat disappointing rendering of the song, in some way, match our earlier expectations, or to make us think this is a or 'the' studio-overdubbed 1984 version of this song.

.

The actual source of this leaked 1986 working version likely is entirely absent that and any other Coleman/Katayama/Novog string contribution (and, most likely as well, other tracks belonging to the 'Our Destiny' multitrack that are, for whatever reason, missing or muted on this leaked mix-down.)

.

All of this said, my opinion is that a cleaned-up, C/K/N overdubbed semi-live version of the track, in the manner of 'Purple Rain', would be the only way to give proper justice to the song. It would probably feel quite similar in production to how 'Raspberry Beret' sounds on the ATWIAD album (or especially in its 12" format).

.

Stripping away late early 80s/early mid-80s production and reconfiguring it with over-the-top and garish Claire Fischer pseudo-intellectual whimsy simply does not work. It fits in comfortably with the spirit of the post-Parade period, but a completed version faithful to the original 1984 live recording and its 1984 studio overdubs, ought to be the 'definitive' one.

.

.

[Edited 7/6/15 13:15pm]

warning2all said:

imprimis said:

First I must say that I find your contribution highly interesting and quite thought-provoking even though i'm not sure I agree with everything. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us

.

It seems that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about this song and its circulating bootleg formats.

.

The more recently leaked recording with Lisa Coleman's vocals, I believe is merely a mix-down or a guide sent to Claire Fischer to add his orchestral parts (with Prince perhaps intending to provide, or later recording, a more poetic and melodramatic delivery of the lyrics after the newly assembled version was completed, since these modifications changed the dynamics of the song entirely).

It seems to me that Clare Fischer's orchestral parts are indeed real and present on the leaked version: some of the orchestral parts are obviously the work of a full orchestra, and as far as I can tell include some horns that can't be the work of the 1984 string section. My ears could deceive me but I don't think they do. However I'm puzzled by the fact that no contribution by Fischer has ever been evidenced by the work of Nilsen and Uptown. But there's even MORE puzzling: the June 1984 live version, that is supposed to have served as basic tracks for the studio cut, contains samples of an orchestra of unkown origin, that sounds a lot like Clare Fischer's. This could mean one of several things:

- Prince had, in fact, recorded a studio demo earlier and asked Fischer to add orchestration to it, which would make it the first collaboration between P and Fischer as far as I know.

- Same as above but Prince had that work done by another orchestra.

- The samples used in the live cut come from some sound library that Prince managed to use with the song (or maybe served as a base for it).

Of note is the fact that the orchestra appears on the pre-soundboard leak of the live track, which is obviously an audience recording, so this would indicate that the orchestra sample has not been overdubbed in the soundboard recording but was played live.

.

It appears to date from sometime towards the very end of the Revolution era, circa mid-1986.

Might be, but we don't know, Lisa's vocals could have been recorded at any time between 84 and 86, and not necessarily at the same time as Fischer's contribution.

.

Certainly, this is not a fully fleshed out effort in this leak, nor are all of the multitracks involved, and the song presumably progressed further and in a more completed form beyond what this leak suggests before the Revolution disbanded. Or not, many vault songs have been left in a form that could be deemed unfinished, and finalized years later when the time came to release them. Prince also has a taste for bare-bone, minimalist recordings and it's absolutely certain, for example, that anyone hearing "It", if it was an outtake, would claim the track is unfinished. Some songs have even been "downgraded" from a more orchestrated version to a near demo state for release (NC2U, Dorothy Parker, Something In The Water), so I'm always uncomfortable when fans claim that such or such outtake is "unfinished". Fact is, we don't know and we have no way to know.

.

Likewise, without all the multitracks and proper mixing, it is presumably not even the full sense of what the song was, at the very moment in time this leak is derived from. In fact, the leak is so 'crippled', we can only begin to speculate about what the song in this 1986 configuration must really sound like. IF such a configuration exists.

.

Why is Lisa Coleman on the 'lead' vocal on this leak? Likely since W&L were assigned duties to update or help complete a number of these earlier tracks late 1984-Summer 1986 while P laid down new material or pursued other ventures. This 'lead vocal' seems only a one-take, perfunctory, unserious one meant to serve as a stand-in or guide of some sort. Most of what Prince has recorded was recorded in a single take. Once again it's hard to say whether Lisa's vocals were meant to be temporary or not.

.

I certainly do not believe Lisa was ever meant to appear on lead vocals on a completed version of this track. For all we know the track was never intended for release at all, it isn't in any known configuration of any album from that era and hasn't been offered to any other artists as far as we know. It seems to have been intended as a "vault track" from the beginning.

.

'All Day, All Night', 'Baby, You're a Trip', 'Witness for the Prosecution', 'We Can Funk', 'Neon Telephone', 'Teacher, Teacher', 'Strange Relationship' and 'Wonderful Ass' are some other languishing or set-aside tracks that underwent their care and oversight to help update or complete during roughly this same time period. Some of the songs you mention were indeed left to the care of W&L but several others were not, ever, reworked by them as far as we know. I'm picky I know, but since we're into technicalities I believe there should be a sense of accuracy

.

This track, along with 'Roadhouse Garden', received a full David Coleman, Suzie Katayama, Novi Novog orchestral strings treatment in late 1984, similar in manner to the overdubs made to the track 'Purple Rain' (and for that matter, 'Take Me With U', 'Next Time Wipe the Lipstick Off Your Collar', etc.). There is no evidence that Roadhosue Garden was ever overdubbed with strings as far as I know. What is your source?

.

These additions were most likely recorded during the same set of sessions that such overdubs were recorded for 'Pop Life' and 'Raspberry Beret'. This has been documented, no "most likely" here. It was in late September 84.

.

The more recently leaked bootleg mentioned above, I very strongly believe, has been partially tweaked or faked by the bootleggers themselves.

More on that later

.

All of the orchestration properly appearing on it is a previously unheard 1985/1986 Claire Fischer contribution to the track that apparently was to supplant the earlier Coleman/Katayama/Novog strings work recorded in late 1984. That is not in dispute, and is one of the most legitimately interesting things about the leak (and something I think we all should have assumed existed, given that known studio session dates for this track have been documented well into 1986). No such 1986 sessions have been documented as far as I know: please tell what your source is. However I agree on the fact that Fischer's orchestra is present and like you, I'm surprised no one (me included) hasn't so far paid attention to this "detail". The fact that the orchestra samples in the 84 show have never been discussed (as far as I know) before is even more surprising.

.

The bootleggers, however, seem to have added the famous little bit of C/K/N 'Our Destiny' strings that we have known for a long time to have been recycled for use at the beginning of 'The Ladder' (also the high hat is part of that original 'Our Destiny' segue into 'Roadhouse Garden', as well).

I find this an extremely interesting theory and I'm willing to buy it, even though it seems contradicted by the fact that, once more on the base of my ears only, the orchestration on that track seems, in fact, to be a mix of the 1984 string session AND Fischer's orchestra. Some string songs, later on the track, are very distinctive of the 84 string group. I might be wrong though: Fischer might have wanted to emulate the 84 string section, too. I also find that the "Ladder" string part works quite well in the intro of the song, but this might just be me.

.

Unfortunately, the bootleggers evidently lack the limited musical sophistication necessary, or assume their audience lacks the mental wherewithal, to recognize that this particular snippet of strings logically and structurally matches only the 'I Want You, I Want You' pleading at the end of the original 1984 recording (again, serving as as a fade-out and the segue point at the end into 'Roadhouse Garden').

I'd be really curious to know when exactly, to the second, you'd put the string section to work with "I want u": the experiment can easily be done with Audacity, I think it'd be worth giving it a try

.

The bootleggers, instead, dubbed it in themselves at some random point towards the beginning of the song. And it stands out like a sore thumb in contrast to the Claire Fischer orchestration on this 1986 version, not to mention having a discernable difference in audio quality (taken, it would seem, and artificially digitially downgraded a bit, from the ATWIAD album), and not to mention that it is the only C/K/N orchestration rearing its head in the entire leak. As said above I'm not entirely sure about that, but I'm not sure of the opposite either.

.

It seems to have been added only to make this odd and somewhat disappointing rendering of the song, in some way, match our earlier expectations, or to make us think this is a or 'the' studio-overdubbed 1984 version of this song.

I fail to see the purpose of such a tweak, though stranger things have been seen (see some of 4DF's "experimentations" for example). However, I think there is a way to know this, as some people here know perfectly where the leak comes from and whom was the source of the original tape. I hope those people manifest themselves in the thread and clarify this.

.

The actual source of this leaked 1986 working version likely is entirely absent that and any other Coleman/Katayama/Novog string contribution (and, most likely as well, other tracks belonging to the 'Our Destiny' multitrack that are, for whatever reason, missing or muted on this leaked mix-down.)

.

All of this said, I believe a cleaned-up, C/K/N overdubbed 'live feeling' in the manner of 'Purple Rain' 1984 version of this song would be the only way to do this song its proper justice. It would probably feel quite similar in production to how 'Raspberry Beret' sounds on the ATWIAD album.

.

Stripping away late early 80s/early mid-80s production and reconfiguring it with over-the-top and garrish Claire Fischer pseudointellectual whimsy simply does not work. It fits in comfortably with the spirit of the post-Parade period, but a completed version faithful to the original 1984 live recording and its 1984 studio overdubs, ought to be the definitive one.

.

.

[Edited 7/6/15 10:45am]

databank said:

jaawwnn said:

Is it Wendy? Crap, I was sure it was Lisa

It is Lisa's
I believe this is one of her compositions

as well as the orchastra
.

the Ladder
2 violin players: Sid Page and Marcy Vaj
2 viola players: Denise Buffam and Laury Woods
2 cello players: David Coleman and Suzi Katayama
2 stand up bass players: Tim Barr and Annette Atkinson

KingSausage said:

warning2all said:

Our Destiny into Roadhouse Garden is vintage Revolution. That would have been a great open er for the "Roadhouse Garden" album that never happened in 1998

That transition is my single favorite Prince moment. It's so funky.

Same here, this transition is some serious, heavy shit

U know what pisses me to HELL? For years I had only a crappy audience recording of it and those were the years I tripped on it like a MF. By the time I finally got the soundboard it was somehow too late for me to trip on this as much as I would have 15 or 20 years earlier. And this can be said for lots of outtakes that surfaced in superior quality only recently. Now I don't have the taste to listen all day to Prince bootlegs I already know by heart, even if I have them with better sound quality.

Why the hell didn't I get all this 20 years ago, when I could really appreciate it?

[Edited 7/6/15 12:08pm]

TwiliteKid said:

paisleypark4 said:

The moment U came 2 town

My life changed all around

I always loved this song and thought it was a beautiful short piece of work, that doesnt get talked about quite often. Love the intro. In the live version there is some vinyl sample he used perhaps from some showtune. Claire brings in those dramatic orchestrations later used for the Ladder. A very warm track I always loved even when it was in very bad circulating sound.

Great song, though I hope there's a version with Prince on vocals. FYI, the strings on this (and The Ladder) were done by Wendy & Lisa, not Clare Fischer.

The strings also sound very similar in touch to the string ending of Purple Rain which was composed by Lisa Coleman (and Wendy Melvoin)

.

Novi Novog said she did a lot of work on the music back then including Ice Cream Castles and the Glamorous Life

Why Lisa's vocals: 1.) it was her composition 2.) (like Boni Boyer on the Line)he needed to hear a females vocals because it could have been prepared for a female lead(protege ie the Family -Jill Jones) 3.) Maybe she was going to be the lead or co-lead

over-the-top and garrish Claire Fischer pseudointellectual whimsy

hahaha ouch, take that Clare Fischer!

[Edited 7/6/15 12:28pm]

databank said:

databank said:

imprimis said:

First I must say that I find your contribution highly interesting and quite thought-provoking even though i'm not sure I agree with everything. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us

.

It seems that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about this song and its circulating bootleg formats.

.

The more recently leaked recording with Lisa Coleman's vocals, I believe is merely a mix-down or a guide sent to Claire Fischer to add his orchestral parts (with Prince perhaps intending to provide, or later recording, a more poetic and melodramatic delivery of the lyrics after the newly assembled version was completed, since these modifications changed the dynamics of the song entirely).

It seems to me that Clare Fischer's orchestral parts are indeed real and present on the leaked version: some of the orchestral parts are obviously the work of a full orchestra, and as far as I can tell include some horns that can't be the work of the 1984 string section. My ears could deceive me but I don't think they do. However I'm puzzled by the fact that no contribution by Fischer has ever been evidenced by the work of Nilsen and Uptown. But there's even MORE puzzling: the June 1984 live version, that is supposed to have served as basic tracks for the studio cut, contains samples of an orchestra of unkown origin, that sounds a lot like Clare Fischer's. This could mean one of several things:

- Prince had, in fact, recorded a studio demo earlier and asked Fischer to add orchestration to it, which would make it the first collaboration between P and Fischer as far as I know.

- Same as above but Prince had that work done by another orchestra.

- The samples used in the live cut come from some sound library that Prince managed to use with the song (or maybe served as a base for it).

Of note is the fact that the orchestra appears on the pre-soundboard leak of the live track, which is obviously an audience recording, so this would indicate that the orchestra sample has not been overdubbed in the soundboard recording but was played live.

.

It appears to date from sometime towards the very end of the Revolution era, circa mid-1986.

Might be, but we don't know, Lisa's vocals could have been recorded at any time between 84 and 86, and not necessarily at the same time as Fischer's contribution.

.

Certainly, this is not a fully fleshed out effort in this leak, nor are all of the multitracks involved, and the song presumably progressed further and in a more completed form beyond what this leak suggests before the Revolution disbanded. Or not, many vault songs have been left in a form that could be deemed unfinished, and finalized years later when the time came to release them. Prince also has a taste for bare-bone, minimalist recordings and it's absolutely certain, for example, that anyone hearing "It", if it was an outtake, would claim the track is unfinished. Some songs have even been "downgraded" from a more orchestrated version to a near demo state for release (NC2U, Dorothy Parker, Something In The Water), so I'm always uncomfortable when fans claim that such or such outtake is "unfinished". Fact is, we don't know and we have no way to know.

.

Likewise, without all the multitracks and proper mixing, it is presumably not even the full sense of what the song was, at the very moment in time this leak is derived from. In fact, the leak is so 'crippled', we can only begin to speculate about what the song in this 1986 configuration must really sound like. IF such a configuration exists.

.

Why is Lisa Coleman on the 'lead' vocal on this leak? Likely since W&L were assigned duties to update or help complete a number of these earlier tracks late 1984-Summer 1986 while P laid down new material or pursued other ventures. This 'lead vocal' seems only a one-take, perfunctory, unserious one meant to serve as a stand-in or guide of some sort. Most of what Prince has recorded was recorded in a single take. Once again it's hard to say whether Lisa's vocals were meant to be temporary or not.

.

I certainly do not believe Lisa was ever meant to appear on lead vocals on a completed version of this track. For all we know the track was never intended for release at all, it isn't in any known configuration of any album from that era and hasn't been offered to any other artists as far as we know. It seems to have been intended as a "vault track" from the beginning.

.

'All Day, All Night', 'Baby, You're a Trip', 'Witness for the Prosecution', 'We Can Funk', 'Neon Telephone', 'Teacher, Teacher', 'Strange Relationship' and 'Wonderful Ass' are some other languishing or set-aside tracks that underwent their care and oversight to help update or complete during roughly this same time period. Some of the songs you mention were indeed left to the care of W&L but several others were not, ever, reworked by them as far as we know. I'm picky I know, but since we're into technicalities I believe there should be a sense of accuracy

.

This track, along with 'Roadhouse Garden', received a full David Coleman, Suzie Katayama, Novi Novog orchestral strings treatment in late 1984, similar in manner to the overdubs made to the track 'Purple Rain' (and for that matter, 'Take Me With U', 'Next Time Wipe the Lipstick Off Your Collar', etc.). There is no evidence that Roadhosue Garden was ever overdubbed with strings as far as I know. What is your source?

.

These additions were most likely recorded during the same set of sessions that such overdubs were recorded for 'Pop Life' and 'Raspberry Beret'. This has been documented, no "most likely" here. It was in late September 84.

.

The more recently leaked bootleg mentioned above, I very strongly believe, has been partially tweaked or faked by the bootleggers themselves.

More on that later

.

All of the orchestration properly appearing on it is a previously unheard 1985/1986 Claire Fischer contribution to the track that apparently was to supplant the earlier Coleman/Katayama/Novog strings work recorded in late 1984. That is not in dispute, and is one of the most legitimately interesting things about the leak (and something I think we all should have assumed existed, given that known studio session dates for this track have been documented well into 1986). No such 1986 sessions have been documented as far as I know: please tell what your source is. However I agree on the fact that Fischer's orchestra is present and like you, I'm surprised no one (me included) hasn't so far paid attention to this "detail". The fact that the orchestra samples in the 84 show have never been discussed (as far as I know) before is even more surprising.

.

The bootleggers, however, seem to have added the famous little bit of C/K/N 'Our Destiny' strings that we have known for a long time to have been recycled for use at the beginning of 'The Ladder' (also the high hat is part of that original 'Our Destiny' segue into 'Roadhouse Garden', as well).

I find this an extremely interesting theory and I'm willing to buy it, even though it seems contradicted by the fact that, once more on the base of my ears only, the orchestration on that track seems, in fact, to be a mix of the 1984 string session AND Fischer's orchestra. Some string songs, later on the track, are very distinctive of the 84 string group. I might be wrong though: Fischer might have wanted to emulate the 84 string section, too. I also find that the "Ladder" string part works quite well in the intro of the song, but this might just be me.

.

Unfortunately, the bootleggers evidently lack the limited musical sophistication necessary, or assume their audience lacks the mental wherewithal, to recognize that this particular snippet of strings logically and structurally matches only the 'I Want You, I Want You' pleading at the end of the original 1984 recording (again, serving as as a fade-out and the segue point at the end into 'Roadhouse Garden').

I'd be really curious to know when exactly, to the second, you'd put the string section to work with "I want u": the experiment can easily be done with Audacity, I think it'd be worth giving it a try

.

The bootleggers, instead, dubbed it in themselves at some random point towards the beginning of the song. And it stands out like a sore thumb in contrast to the Claire Fischer orchestration on this 1986 version, not to mention having a discernable difference in audio quality (taken, it would seem, and artificially digitially downgraded a bit, from the ATWIAD album), and not to mention that it is the only C/K/N orchestration rearing its head in the entire leak. As said above I'm not entirely sure about that, but I'm not sure of the opposite either.

.

It seems to have been added only to make this odd and somewhat disappointing rendering of the song, in some way, match our earlier expectations, or to make us think this is a or 'the' studio-overdubbed 1984 version of this song.

I fail to see the purpose of such a tweak, though stranger things have been seen (see some of 4DF's "experimentations" for example). However, I think there is a way to know this, as some people here know perfectly where the leak comes from and whom was the source of the original tape. I hope those people manifest themselves in the thread and clarify this.

.

The actual source of this leaked 1986 working version likely is entirely absent that and any other Coleman/Katayama/Novog string contribution (and, most likely as well, other tracks belonging to the 'Our Destiny' multitrack that are, for whatever reason, missing or muted on this leaked mix-down.)

.

All of this said, I believe a cleaned-up, C/K/N overdubbed 'live feeling' in the manner of 'Purple Rain' 1984 version of this song would be the only way to do this song its proper justice. It would probably feel quite similar in production to how 'Raspberry Beret' sounds on the ATWIAD album.

.

Stripping away late early 80s/early mid-80s production and reconfiguring it with over-the-top and garrish Claire Fischer pseudointellectual whimsy simply does not work. It fits in comfortably with the spirit of the post-Parade period, but a completed version faithful to the original 1984 live recording and its 1984 studio overdubs, ought to be the definitive one.

.

.

[Edited 7/6/15 10:45am]

I greatly appreciate your contributions, but I believe you are too forgiving as to what P's reasoning or intentions may or may not have been, in the interests of caution on some points.

.

There are few legitimately authoritative sources to rely on here, but I am not certain that those should always be necessary to reach a reasoned determination.

.

It can be a healthy practice to challenge the orthodoxy on the production and behind-the-scenes matters, as it is for one to express skepticism to admitted speculation.

.

The more recently leaked studio version of 'Our Destiny' should commensensically seem to be missing too many of certain fundamental sonic elements, and have in the mix too much of certain other fundamental elements to be deemed even a true "demo". It is not merely spartan, it is almost beneath an acceptable standard of mere listenability, and it is not "consistently bare" on what is left in it and what is not.

.

I appreciate that he has made it a career highlight to force upon WB skin-and-bones[-seeming] productions that proved to be commercial successes, but in this instance, the leak is most likely a mix-down of a more complete demo multitrack, and nowhere near finished, even in the sense of how some outtakes simply do not reach the stage or subjective grade of quality to make a tracklist.

.

We know what isn't in it, which are the Lisa/David Coleman-directed strings, much of the live elements to the 1984 recording, and likely additional synth and vocal overdubs at various times. Even Claire Fischer's contribution seems only partially revealed here.

.

Wendy and Lisa personally indicated to me that 'All Day, All Night', and OD/RHG were 'always' intended to be for the first post-UTCM album project. On that information, I cannot accept that it was conceived as a private piece to be relegated to the Vault from the very beginning. On the other side of the coin, my suspicions would lead me to doubt that those three tracks were 'pre-planned' for a specific album project that far ahead of time.

.

I have to imagine, without tangible evidence, that those tracks were written/recorded for consideration on the album to follow PR, of which AWTIAD contains only some of the possible material recorded for use on such an album, and before he began to deflect aspects of his image from that era beginning late 1984/early 1985.

.

If the bootleggers, or someone in their foodchain, did not themselves introduce that alleged 'tweak', at the very minimum it should still be self-evident that the musical piece was *originally* recorded as the fade-out to and beginning of the segue from the 'I Want You, I Want You' ending to the 1984 recording. Its placement on the leaked studio take, however, makes little aesthetic sense, is out-of-place from its original purpose, and is curiously the only non-Claire Fischer orchestral contribution appearing on the track. I believe it fair to presume that the Coleman-directed overdubs produced enough material to fill up much of the total length of the track (largely, but not exclusively, as a replacement for, or as accoutrement to, any appearance of the Oberheim strings in the live performance, as was the case with 'Purple Rain').

.

And, added to that, if Prince saw fit to set the song aside (for possible further work or use on a more distant project) in 1984, and use its ending as the beginning to an completely new track on 'The Ladder', and at the same time have an entirely different musician arrange a new set of overdubs, the it seems even less likely that the very same musical excerpt should be making a "second coming" in 1985 or 1986.

.

There likely exist material and sound elements of sufficient production quality to assemble a '1984' studio version of the song (if one was never fully pieced together), one likely to be at least as good as most of his better circulating 1980s outtakes or non-single album tracks. This wasn't the direction he chose to pursue shortly after this time, however.

.

[Edited 7/6/15 14:35pm]

databank said:

.

There is no evidence that Roadhosue Garden was ever overdubbed with strings as far as I know. What is your source?

.

___________________________________________________

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I had the opportunity to meet Wendy and Lisa in the 2000's. 'All Day, All Night', 'Our Destiny' and 'Roadhouse Garden' were three particular tracks I quizzed them on.

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They did indicate that both 'Our Destiny' and 'Roadhouse Garden' received string overdubs.

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Of course, in the brevity of the conversation, and being years prior to our more recent leak, I did not have the privilege of asking whether that meant Claire Fischer, a Coleman-directed effort, or something else.

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Even without that somewhat open-ended response I have to rely on, I believe it is an entirely 'safe' presumption that the track received string overdubs, given that it is part of a suite with overlapping musical production and styling recorded live in sequence.

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Having gone to pains to assemble all of these musicians together to record overdubs, why should only the first half of this musical dyad have received the pleasure of this treatment? I view OD/RHG as virtually inseparable, unlike with, for example, IWD4U/BIAS (which can more comfortably stand on their own).

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For that matter, I wouldn't find it entirely beyond the realm of plausibility that 'Roadhouse Garden' has not only a Coleman strings treatment, but a Clare Fischer one as well, collecting dust in the Vault.

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I believe the only reason 'Our Destiny' is allegedly 'confirmed' to have been string-overdubbed in late 1984 is on the basis of another archivist's recognizing the chord structures in 'The Ladder' (or even the high hat, if they had early access to the soundboard of the '84 First Avenue Birthday Show). If any of the players on it confirmed as much later on, or any of the personnel involved offered documentation where it is listed in hardcopy, I image it was in reference to being asked on the basis of this exact suspicion.

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Now, arguing from the other direction, given the 'faux high art sensibilities' (and, by the way, that term is not necessarily a disparaging one) which sometimes characterize the 1985 and 1986 studio output, it is, I suppose, entirely possible that the Coleman string excerpt could have been inserted or applied like 'patchwork', almost capriciously, to that ~1986 studio version, by P or Lisa, and that the more elite traders with access to this version recognized its use in 'The Ladder', and this is in turn is how we managed to be informed of where that interlude must come from, but I find this possibility intuitively difficult to accept as a likelihood.

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You indicate that your listening of the ~1986 'Our Destiny' left you with the impression that there is other 1984 strings session work left in. I would have to closely scrutinize again. I am operating from memory at the present. If there is other 1984 string work in the mix, it still wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of a little bit of bootlegger trickery, as the placement of that one excerpt is, to my ears at least, decidedly 'off'. And why are the high-hats, from the seconds before 'Roadhouse Garden' is set to begin, left in there-- surely P/Lisa would have drawn from the string sessions multitrack alone?

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[The high-hats are playing in isolation after the strings on 'The Ladder', and also during the string section (if you have sensitive ears) in this leak and on 'The Ladder'. This is, naturally, carried over from the live multitrack of the '84 First Avenue Birthday performance]

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To compare, I assume the OD->RHG high-hats were left in with the strings on 'The Ladder' only to help create an overall opening atmosphere for that track; as 'The Ladder' is built on a briefly rehearsed semi-live recording, the actual song begins a bit abruptly. This cleverly repurposed discard from OD, in its new role, is also being used, *perhaps*, to 'suggest' some kind of structural lead-on from the ending of the track 'Purple Rain', TL's nearest spiritual/anthemic equivalent from the previous album, which (needless to say, and among other things) ends with some high-hats and a similar string assembly.

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But it doesn't make much sense to cut-and-paste *both of those elements* into a more-or-less random part of a reconfigured 'Our Destiny' (where they collectively served as its ending in a previous life).

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Did the bootleggers [incorrectly, I say] believe it had to be something from the beginning of the 'Our Destiny', due to its use/placement on 'The Ladder', forced then to find the earliest workable spot to paste it in to a source lacking it? Or at least think that the average listener would have been clueless enough to expect it somewhere at/near the beginning?

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Why might they have done this? Well, quite frankly, the leaked version is rather different from the average person's expectations of the song on the basis of the live 1984 performance, and it very much seems to be only a specific-purpose mixdown rather than a proper outtake (in relatively poor sound quality at that)-- perhaps they felt it necessary to give 'substance' or 'import' to this potentially underwhelming leak by trying to make it align with some aspect of our preconceptions, using that coda/interlude as a 'marker' readily identifiable from what we already have learned in Prince-lore. What the source tape of the leak offers, for such a highly mythologized and coveted track, is one of those so-close-yet-so-far things (even if there is no bootlegger chicanery here).

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Is the leak of this studio version of 'Our Destiny' in any way related to some of the before-and-after instructional material Claire Fischer granted access to during the ten or so years prior to his death?

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[Edited 7/7/15 10:51am]

The only thing I can add to this with 100% certainy, is that "Bootleggers" never messed with this version of the track. The 6/7/84 soundboard and this outtake have been in the hands of a few outtake collectors since 96. The first time "Our Destiny" popped as was on "Perfect Prince" which was really something that was more of as a rouge operation than some cordinated and planned fan release. Actually that fucked up a few things, someones trust of puttin out a decent 3 disc Free Fan release. But instead people had to wait three years later to hear the other outtakes that were with "Our Destiny" on Eye Blast from the past 2.0. That excellent "Dance Electric',"Purple Music" "Neon Telephone"#2, "Baby I'm A Star" #1" "Splash"#1,"Lust U Always" and the other tracks were all with "Our Destiny" which was actually labelled as "Our Destiny"#2. Unfortunately when that type of material is obtained it doesn't come with liner notes (LOL) so I couldn't tell you the how and why of "Our Destiny"#2 or specifics about the recording(overdub) session for the track. That's stuff has been was around in some hands for actually for a long time. Like I said it first popped up around 95/96 and was later moved to a few other people in 2002/2003. The only thing the bootleggers did was try to boost the volume and try to EQ(ie."Lust U Always(Stereo Spread):which was completely uneccesary and dumb to do). They just tried to clean up what was sourced from "Perfect Prince Vol. 1 and Vol.2" and Eye released it on Blast Volume 1. But I can tell you theres versions of all those "Perfect Prince" tracks that are about 2 gens lower in sound quality. But so you know, no one added or screwed around with "Our Destiny"#2 thats the way it actually is.

Big Chick

"Security Ensuring Thee'

imprimis said:

The more recently leaked bootleg mentioned above, I very strongly believe, has been partially tweaked or faked by the bootleggers themselves.

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All of the orchestration properly appearing on it is a previously unheard 1985/1986 Claire Fischer contribution to the track that apparently was to supplant the earlier Coleman/Katayama/Novog strings work recorded in late 1984. That is not in dispute, and it is one of the most legitimately interesting things about the leak (and something I think we all should have assumed existed, given that known studio session dates for this track have been documented well into 1986).

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The bootleggers, however, seem to have added the famous little bit of C/K/N 'Our Destiny' strings that we have known for a long time to have been recycled for use at the beginning of 'The Ladder' (also the high hat is part of that original 'Our Destiny' segue into 'Roadhouse Garden', as well).

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Unfortunately, the bootleggers evidently lack the limited musical sophistication necessary, or assume their audience lacks the mental wherewithal, to recognize that this particular snippet of strings logically and structurally matches only the 'I Want You, I Want You' pleading at the end of the original 1984 recording (again, serving as as a fade-out and the segue point at the end into 'Roadhouse Garden').

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The bootleggers, instead, dubbed it in themselves at some random point towards the beginning of the song. And it stands out like a sore thumb in contrast to the Claire Fischer orchestration on this 1986 version, not to mention having a discernable difference in audio quality (taken, it would seem, and artificially digitially downgraded a bit, from the ATWIAD album), and not to mention that it is the only C/K/N orchestration rearing its head in the entire leak.

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[Edited 7/7/15 12:27pm]

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'Bootleggers' could entail any nearly link in the chain through non-official sources, at any possible point in time, not necessarily something done very recently, or even at the earliest known stages of a track reaching the general trading community.

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At the very minimum, if this stems directly from a legitimate, through-and-through, unaltered official source, it needs to be said that this represents entirely different use and placement in 1985/1986 of the string coda it from how it was originally recorded and executed in late 1984.

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[Edited 7/7/15 13:35pm]

imprimis said:

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'Bootleggers' could entail any nearly link in the chain through non-official sources, at any possible point in time, not necessarily something done very recently, or even at the earliest known stages of a track reaching the general trading community.

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[Edited 7/7/15 13:27pm]

If the bootleggers actually had those tracks back in the day(which they didn't) they would've put them out along time ago. None of the things I mentioned never came from that type of food chain. Thats as much as I can go into it.

[Edited 7/7/15 13:36pm]

I am using a very comprehensive sense of 'bootlegger', basically anyone engaged in the circulation, whether with a commercial interest or not, of these officially unauthorized or unreleased materials. It can be construed as narrowly or as broadly as necessary in a particular context.

[Edited 7/7/15 13:39pm]

While anything is always possible, even the unlikely, Big Chick's infos are usually accurate so OD would have been tempered with so early in the foodchain of elite collectors, and I really fail to see why anyone would have done this: if anything you'd think elite collectors, trading or selling for high prices uncirculating tracks to each other, would respect the original material given that it's highly valuable. So my take on this is until it is contradicted by any reliable source there is no need for further speculation and we can consider the track that we have genuine. It doesn't have to mean it was a definitive version (there could be later versions) but one that's as it was when it leaked out of the vault.

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The information u had from W&L is very interesting: the fact that Roadhouse Garden received a string treatment of any kind is new and should be added to Princevault. I'd also be interested to know more of what they told u about this post-Parade pre-Dream Factory project that would also have contained ADAN, this is new information AFAIK, and quite big news in fact.

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As far as I know no guide track has ever leaked from Clare Fischer or Brent Fischer save the I Wonder U demos that were in fact officially streamed by them (though most likely without Prince's authorization). The Fischers are high profile professionals, not the kind to leak tapes at the risk of losing credibility in the profession. It is possible, though, that some of the boots we have come from tapes they would have given to close friends or collaborators, but I have never heard any confirmation of it.

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Unanswered questions remain:

- Where did the orchestra sample that was played during the 84 performance come from?

- When was Fischer's orchestration overdubbed?

- When were Lisa's vocals added and to what purpose? (if an official release was planned a scenario à la I Wonder U/A Place In heaven is not unthinkable)

databank said:

While anything is always possible, even the unlikely, Big Chick's infos are usually accurate so OD would have been tempered with so early in the foodchain of elite collectors, and I really fail to see why anyone would have done this: if anything you'd think elite collectors, trading or selling for high prices uncirculating tracks to each other, would respect the original material given that it's highly valuable. So my take on this is until it is contradicted by any reliable source there is no need for further speculation and we can consider the track that we have genuine. It doesn't have to mean it was a definitive version (there could be later versions) but one that's as it was when it leaked out of the vault.

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The information u had from W&L is very interesting: the fact that Roadhouse Garden received a string treatment of any kind is new and should be added to Princevault. I'd also be interested to know more of what they told u about this post-Parade pre-Dream Factory project that would also have contained ADAN, this is new information AFAIK, and quite big news in fact.

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As far as I know no guide track has ever leaked from Clare Fischer or Brent Fischer save the I Wonder U demos that were in fact officially streamed by them (though most likely without Prince's authorization). The Fischers are high profile professionals, not the kind to leak tapes at the risk of losing credibility in the profession. It is possible, though, that some of the boots we have come from tapes they would have given to close friends or collaborators, but I have never heard any confirmation of it.

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Unanswered questions remain:

- Where did the orchestra sample that was played during the 84 performance come from?

- When was Fischer's orchestration overdubbed?

- When were Lisa's vocals added and to what purpose? (if an official release was planned a scenario à la I Wonder U/A Place In heaven is not unthinkable)

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I believe Fischer made some of this material/played some of the material, in before and after comparison, during a few academic (music departmental) symposia during the very late 1990's and 2000's. I was wondering whether anything surfaced from that.

[Edited 7/9/15 14:59pm]

databank said:

Unanswered questions remain:

- Where did the orchestra sample that was played during the 84 performance come from?

I am 99% certain that's a synth.

WOW thank you all for the information. Eating popcorn like Michael Jackson to all this

Just a note to possibly help in timeline when it comes to the strings on Our Destiny,
Clare Fischer was friends with Susannah & Wendy's father.
It was Susannah after listening to some Rufus & Chaka Khan albums with Prince, said to him, maybe he could do some string arrangements on the Families album.
So I doubt in 1983 Clare did anything for Our Destiny

Clare added his parts to the Family album late 1984

That was the first album with Prince that he did any work on

Clare Fischer did no work on ATWIAD Purple Rain, Ice Cream Castles or the Glamorous Life

Lisa Coleman & Wendy Melvoin conducted most of the string arrangements for these albums

along with the the celloist voilinist violaist etc

bluegangsta said:

databank said:

Unanswered questions remain:

- Where did the orchestra sample that was played during the 84 performance come from?

I am 99% certain that's a synth.

No way, absolutely no way.