I remember people crushing "what if" in part becuase of its evangelical lyrics. I also remember people impugning Prince's motives for releasing "Baltimore" in the context of a concert around a issue of social injustice. A lot of the usual hater suspects in here stomped the guy out for both. But, it seems to me that they are missing something completely. To me as the man has matured as a full-fledged human being [as much as being a brilliant-eccentric allows] his spirituality has grown and he has learned to tone down the didactics and preachiness. In that vein, I'm surprised people have missed the all of the Heaven/God references in AoA, PlecElec and some of his other new stuff. Even "Baltimore" has a civil rights social activist religious tone to it. I'm not a Christian or practicing any formal religion, but I think its great that his music has evolved from all the fun and frolic of the 80s and 90s (which we all probalby went through in our own way....assuming this electronic space is populated by real Prince fans and not haters posing as such), to the unfocused stuff he put out in the 00's to now where he seems to have found a center. Lyrics seem to indicate that he has found a happy spiritual medium and that he'd love for us to be there too, but different from some of his 00's stuff, we don't HAVE to worship the way he does or at all....he seems to be ok with that grey area.

I'm curious if people picked this up, as a non-affiliated but spiritual person it hit me right away. All the space/heaven/God metaphors similar to African American spirituals or even Sun Ra or Parliament/Funkadelic in AoA (AoA, Marz, Way Back Home, Breakdown), all the civil rights and anti-sin language in Plec Elec (Stop this Train/Ain't Turnin' Around, Fixurlifeup). He's evolving spiritually and channeling that into his music I believe, and I think he is successful because if you listen without bias there is an uplifting undertone to both recent releases. And, you listen and don't believe you are being lectured to. Its no surprise that he is moving in the direction of social justice for African Americans and all Americans really, it all fits together. What do you think [btw, it would be cool it you stay on topic and stay above personal barbs and insults since we've never met....and probably won't].

Interesting theory, although I don't know if I would equate political activism with spiritual evolution, necessarily. I'll have to think on it more...

Honestly, I think Prince is a slighly depressed musical genius who wishes he was those things (like most people) but it's outside of his wheelhouse (again, like most people)

He's just a man. Most people, as they get older, wish they could help lift other people up. Most good people saw what was happening in Baltimore and wished they could do something.

Prince has the tools and he's trying to use them. I don't know if I would call AoA or Plectrum Electrum spiritual albums but they do seem to be personal albums of a man still searching.

NorthC said:

Yes, even Mick Jagger recently said he would have liked to be a teacher. Lots of young people are obsessed with becoming famous and the few that do, once they get older, realize that's not all there is. That's what AOA is about if you ask me. I'm not sure if it's spiritual, because that's such a vague term that it could mean anything. And at the same time, he's still putting out funny nonsense like The Ex's Face!I can't make heads nor tails of most of the lyrics on Plec. (Except Marz, which I actually think is a better song about the whole race thing than Baltimore.) Maybe having these young musicians and singers around him is his way of making up for the fact that he has no children.

NorthC solid points. As someone who is 3 years younger than Prince and who has been a fan of his from 1978, I think you are spot on. The maturity thing is what I vibed with immediately and save "The Gold Standard" which I don't like, everything is foward looking and circumspect. The music is as well, he's not re-treading the 1980s or 1990s which I like. Not many mega-artists do that, only the best ones keep moving forward...Bowie comes to mind and Madonna up until about 2004....she's retreading like crazy now and its sad [ironically she gets plenty of marketing support and airplay....Prince's AoA, Plec Elec, and one side of Lotus Flow3r are better than anything she's done since Ray of Light IMHO]. Having the young musicians has energized him and I think owning or profiting from his massive catalogue have helped too. Beyond that, I think he has moved beyond the recent convert zealousness about his faith and being more subtle and skillful....an excellent pedagogy through music....I just listened to the Baltimore concert. My comment on the ex's face......the EX is a metaphor for fame, fortune, celebrity and that crazy world he was a part of ..... when I heard it this was the first thing I thought of upon vibing on the lyrics.

Strive said:

Honestly, I think Prince is a slighly depressed musical genius who wishes he was those things (like most people) but it's outside of his wheelhouse (again, like most people)

He's just a man. Most people, as they get older, wish they could help lift other people up. Most good people saw what was happening in Baltimore and wished they could do something.

Prince has the tools and he's trying to use them. I don't know if I would call AoA or Plectrum Electrum spiritual albums but they do seem to be personal albums of a man still searching.

Strive, on point! When I heard "Breakdown" [which was about fighting God in some Saul/Paul conversion thing if you ask me] and "Way Back Home" for the first time I was significantly moved...had not felt like that about a Prince song in maybe 25 years. And as I stated in my OP, I'm not a Church guy on any real level. The depressed thing, stuck in his head/world thing struck me right away, and the guy has had some dramatic failed marriages....the thing with the baby is still so sad and we don't know the details. Anyway, I buy your thesis and agree the man is trying and stretching out. I've always thought there was some level of autism spectrum stuff with the man....his IQ is probably off the charts but sometimes those spectrum conditions are present? Just me riffing off stuff I've thought about over the years, but frankly its a beautiful thing to witness the turn he has taken up to and including AoA and PlecElec. Can't wait for the next 4 years as he heads into his 60s!

bluefish said:

Interesting theory, although I don't know if I would equate political activism with spiritual evolution, necessarily. I'll have to think on it more...

Yes, it is something that grabbed me from the moment I listened to AoA. I'm African American and Latino and there is a strong tradition of the spiritual becoming the social in terms of social justice. Liberation Theology taught by the Jesuits in Central and South America helped people survive and resist, the Spirituals helped people get through Slavery by focusing on God's judgement on the wicked and on a better place after surviving "hell on earth." Rastafarianism is all based on reaching Zion "heaven" after Jesus came back in the form of Haile Selasie (spl wrong I know....). Of course the Civil Rights Era was connected to the African American church. Prince has been tapping into it for years ("The Cross", "The Ladder") but I think now he is doing so in an unambiguous way because he knows who he is? Listen to AoA again and make note of all the references to kneeling, praying, standing up to temptation, and being broken down and humbled. "Breakdown" is all about that....those laser sound effects are almost like some sort of heavenly chastisement or some laser like chipping away. Yeah, check out AoA again.

thats like saying his other albums r not....not

RJOrion said:

@mrgone777 ...very well written...great points...im the same age as well, and it seems that on AOA, P is truly embracing his age and status as an elder, when on prior albums, it seems he was intent on staying "young" and current...WayBackHome, Time, Clouds, AOC, Breakdown,all mirror some the thoughts and concerns any man over 50 may experience...the spiritual overtures in AOA strike me as coming from a man who has spent alot of time on this planet enjoying the fruits of success, and has become increasingly aware of his mortality, and wants to discover his divine purpose on Earth..."Way Back Home" and "Time" touch my soul so profoundly without being "preachy" or having any overt spiritual references [Edited 5/17/15 8:12am]

I agree I found AOA heartbreakingly honest....

AOA is definitely a spiritual album and I love it because its about his own place in todays world, and a more open-ended spirituality and not the judgemetnal/lecturing place ....I'd bet Prince has been doing some yoga and has maybe loosened up his outlook a little...

if you look at it in the context of Madonnas Ray of Light which William Orbit produced...you can see the limitations of Weltons input...but AOA is a really really good Prince album. I'm still listening to it along with Black Messiah.

terrig said:

RJOrion said:

@mrgone777 ...very well written...great points...im the same age as well, and it seems that on AOA, P is truly embracing his age and status as an elder, when on prior albums, it seems he was intent on staying "young" and current...WayBackHome, Time, Clouds, AOC, Breakdown,all mirror some the thoughts and concerns any man over 50 may experience...the spiritual overtures in AOA strike me as coming from a man who has spent alot of time on this planet enjoying the fruits of success, and has become increasingly aware of his mortality, and wants to discover his divine purpose on Earth..."Way Back Home" and "Time" touch my soul so profoundly without being "preachy" or having any overt spiritual references [Edited 5/17/15 8:12am]

I agree I found AOA heartbreakingly honest....

AOA is definitely a spiritual album and I love it because its about his own place in todays world, and a more open-ended spirituality and not the judgemetnal/lecturing place ....I'd bet Prince has been doing some yoga and has maybe loosened up his outlook a little...

if you look at it in the context of Madonnas Ray of Light which William Orbit produced...you can see the limitations of Weltons input...but AOA is a really really good Prince album. I'm still listening to it along with Black Messiah.

I don't see a hint of spirituality in AOA or PE. Yes, there is political commentary, social commentary, and self-reflection -- but where's the spirituality? Does he sing about God or a universal "spirit" in any of the AOA/PE songs?

.

Honestly, I think AOA/PE could've been written by a borderline aethist/hedonist. Please don't misinterpret that as a slam on Prince, because it isn't, nor is it a slam on the music at all.

Se7en said:

terrig said:

I agree I found AOA heartbreakingly honest....

AOA is definitely a spiritual album and I love it because its about his own place in todays world, and a more open-ended spirituality and not the judgemetnal/lecturing place ....I'd bet Prince has been doing some yoga and has maybe loosened up his outlook a little...

if you look at it in the context of Madonnas Ray of Light which William Orbit produced...you can see the limitations of Weltons input...but AOA is a really really good Prince album. I'm still listening to it along with Black Messiah.

I don't see a hint of spirituality in AOA or PE. Yes, there is political commentary, social commentary, and self-reflection -- but where's the spirituality? Does he sing about God or a universal "spirit" in any of the AOA/PE songs?

.

Honestly, I think AOA/PE could've been written by a borderline aethist/hedonist. Please don't misinterpret that as a slam on Prince, because it isn't, nor is it a slam on the music at all.

if you've ever done any yoga - this album is rife with concepts that speak to a more evolved self thats not defined by time and space...starting with group name 3rd Eye itself is a direct reference to the 3rd eye thats connected with an expanded consciousness and a sort of time travel yogis like to describe when they meditate...

the subtle ways he's woven the concepts into the lyrics are in such a way as I hear them, yet you don't, and that is BRILLIANT.

Time Breakdown affirmation 1-2-3 way back home, even art official cage 'welcome home class'..."we need you to tell us what you know"...the answer coming in guitar....

it doesn't have to be LITERAL for it to reference spirituality...

AOA is 8 dollars on sale at Target this week.

kewlschool said:

AOA is 8 dollars on sale at Target this week.

Good for Prince, I would see them at Wal*Mart from October 2014 to about March 2015. They kept it in stock and they would sell them all up here in Portland, OR and in Seattle, WA (Tukwila area). This is without little if any radio, sattelite or other media support....not even background music for sports channels or commericials. Good that Target is selling them aggressively, although $8 is an odd pricepoint.

terrig said:

Se7en said:

I don't see a hint of spirituality in AOA or PE. Yes, there is political commentary, social commentary, and self-reflection -- but where's the spirituality? Does he sing about God or a universal "spirit" in any of the AOA/PE songs?

.

Honestly, I think AOA/PE could've been written by a borderline aethist/hedonist. Please don't misinterpret that as a slam on Prince, because it isn't, nor is it a slam on the music at all.

if you've ever done any yoga - this album is rife with concepts that speak to a more evolved self thats not defined by time and space...starting with group name 3rd Eye itself is a direct reference to the 3rd eye thats connected with an expanded consciousness and a sort of time travel yogis like to describe when they meditate...

the subtle ways he's woven the concepts into the lyrics are in such a way as I hear them, yet you don't, and that is BRILLIANT.

Time Breakdown affirmation 1-2-3 way back home, even art official cage 'welcome home class'..."we need you to tell us what you know"...the answer coming in guitar....

it doesn't have to be LITERAL for it to reference spirituality...

@terrig, Awesome post and 100% on point!

[Edited 5/20/15 2:43am]

RJOrion said:

@mrgone777 ...very well written...great points...im the same age as well, and it seems that on AOA, P is truly embracing his age and status as an elder, when on prior albums, it seems he was intent on staying "young" and current...WayBackHome, Time, Clouds, AOC, Breakdown,all mirror some the thoughts and concerns any man over 50 may experience...the spiritual overtures in AOA strike me as coming from a man who has spent alot of time on this planet enjoying the fruits of success, and has become increasingly aware of his mortality, and wants to discover his divine purpose on Earth..."Way Back Home" and "Time" touch my soul so profoundly without being "preachy" or having any overt spiritual references [Edited 5/17/15 8:12am]

@RJOrion....thank you and a wonderful response! I agree with you about all of the songs you noted!

terrig said:

if you've ever done any yoga - this album is rife with concepts that speak to a more evolved self thats not defined by time and space...starting with group name 3rd Eye itself is a direct reference to the 3rd eye thats connected with an expanded consciousness and a sort of time travel yogis like to describe when they meditate...

.

So what? He just appropriated a term he read somewhere. Doesn't mean anything.

.

the subtle ways he's woven the concepts into the lyrics are in such a way as I hear them, yet you don't, and that is BRILLIANT.

.

Translation: you're just trying to find clues where they're not.

BartVanHemelen said:

terrig said:

if you've ever done any yoga - this album is rife with concepts that speak to a more evolved self thats not defined by time and space...starting with group name 3rd Eye itself is a direct reference to the 3rd eye thats connected with an expanded consciousness and a sort of time travel yogis like to describe when they meditate...

.

So what? He just appropriated a term he read somewhere. Doesn't mean anything.

.

the subtle ways he's woven the concepts into the lyrics are in such a way as I hear them, yet you don't, and that is BRILLIANT.

.

Translation: you're just trying to find clues where they're not.

Well, at the very least... its apparent you and your 3rd eye haven't been acquainted yet. So your comments aren't much of a surprise.

mrgone777 said:

I remember people crushing "what if" in part becuase of its evangelical lyrics. I also remember people impugning Prince's motives for releasing "Baltimore" in the context of a concert around a issue of social injustice. A lot of the usual hater suspects in here stomped the guy out for both. But, it seems to me that they are missing something completely. To me as the man has matured as a full-fledged human being [as much as being a brilliant-eccentric allows] his spirituality has grown and he has learned to tone down the didactics and preachiness. In that vein, I'm surprised people have missed the all of the Heaven/God references in AoA, PlecElec and some of his other new stuff. Even "Baltimore" has a civil rights social activist religious tone to it. I'm not a Christian or practicing any formal religion, but I think its great that his music has evolved from all the fun and frolic of the 80s and 90s (which we all probalby went through in our own way....assuming this electronic space is populated by real Prince fans and not haters posing as such), to the unfocused stuff he put out in the 00's to now where he seems to have found a center. Lyrics seem to indicate that he has found a happy spiritual medium and that he'd love for us to be there too, but different from some of his 00's stuff, we don't HAVE to worship the way he does or at all....he seems to be ok with that grey area.

I'm curious if people picked this up, as a non-affiliated but spiritual person it hit me right away. All the space/heaven/God metaphors similar to African American spirituals or even Sun Ra or Parliament/Funkadelic in AoA (AoA, Marz, Way Back Home, Breakdown), all the civil rights and anti-sin language in Plec Elec (Stop this Train/Ain't Turnin' Around, Fixurlifeup). He's evolving spiritually and channeling that into his music I believe, and I think he is successful because if you listen without bias there is an uplifting undertone to both recent releases. And, you listen and don't believe you are being lectured to. Its no surprise that he is moving in the direction of social justice for African Americans and all Americans really, it all fits together. What do you think [btw, it would be cool it you stay on topic and stay above personal barbs and insults since we've never met....and probably won't].

Listening to more recent stuff, I've also been left with the impression that he's toned things down a bit since the 00s (the dogmatism of TRC, etc) - although even what made it onto that record seems only show a sliver of the full picture of just how all-consuming his religiosity was at that time, when you hear Kevin Smith's recollections of the Celebration discussions with fans. I wonder if he sublimates his more overtly religious ideas into a 'spiritual' form that has wider appeal with his audience out of necessity as much as anything else. It'd be interesting to know how he actually talks about that in private.

That said, it feels to me like 'What If' completely bucks that trend! In many ways, it's the most straightforwardly 'religious' song he's done - a Christian rock cover with a dull, didactic message and little of his unique spiritual modes of expression, etc. (Lovesexy it ain't!) How do you see that as fitting with this apparent evolution of his thinking? It makes me wonder whether he's actually still quite heavily into religion as such on the quiet but keeps it out of sight as he knows it's somewhat divisive amongst fans.

deebee said:

mrgone777 said:

I remember people crushing "what if" in part becuase of its evangelical lyrics. I also remember people impugning Prince's motives for releasing "Baltimore" in the context of a concert around a issue of social injustice. A lot of the usual hater suspects in here stomped the guy out for both. But, it seems to me that they are missing something completely. To me as the man has matured as a full-fledged human being [as much as being a brilliant-eccentric allows] his spirituality has grown and he has learned to tone down the didactics and preachiness. In that vein, I'm surprised people have missed the all of the Heaven/God references in AoA, PlecElec and some of his other new stuff. Even "Baltimore" has a civil rights social activist religious tone to it. I'm not a Christian or practicing any formal religion, but I think its great that his music has evolved from all the fun and frolic of the 80s and 90s (which we all probalby went through in our own way....assuming this electronic space is populated by real Prince fans and not haters posing as such), to the unfocused stuff he put out in the 00's to now where he seems to have found a center. Lyrics seem to indicate that he has found a happy spiritual medium and that he'd love for us to be there too, but different from some of his 00's stuff, we don't HAVE to worship the way he does or at all....he seems to be ok with that grey area.

I'm curious if people picked this up, as a non-affiliated but spiritual person it hit me right away. All the space/heaven/God metaphors similar to African American spirituals or even Sun Ra or Parliament/Funkadelic in AoA (AoA, Marz, Way Back Home, Breakdown), all the civil rights and anti-sin language in Plec Elec (Stop this Train/Ain't Turnin' Around, Fixurlifeup). He's evolving spiritually and channeling that into his music I believe, and I think he is successful because if you listen without bias there is an uplifting undertone to both recent releases. And, you listen and don't believe you are being lectured to. Its no surprise that he is moving in the direction of social justice for African Americans and all Americans really, it all fits together. What do you think [btw, it would be cool it you stay on topic and stay above personal barbs and insults since we've never met....and probably won't].

Listening to more recent stuff, I've also been left with the impression that he's toned things down a bit since the 00s (the dogmatism of TRC, etc) - although even what made it onto that record seems only show a sliver of the full picture of just how all-consuming his religiosity was at that time, when you hear Kevin Smith's recollections of the Celebration discussions with fans. I wonder if he sublimates his more overtly religious ideas into a 'spiritual' form that has wider appeal with his audience out of necessity as much as anything else. It'd be interesting to know how he actually talks about that in private.

That said, it feels to me like 'What If' completely bucks that trend! In many ways, it's the most straightforwardly 'religious' song he's done - a Christian rock cover with a dull, didactic message and little of his unique spiritual modes of expression, etc. (Lovesexy it ain't!) How do you see that as fitting with this apparent evolution of his thinking? It makes me wonder whether he's actually still quite heavily into religion as such on the quiet but keeps it out of sight as he knows it's somewhat divisive amongst fans.

"What If" gave me hives and I felt a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that it spelled the beginning of the REAL,like forever end of Prince and thennnnnnn.

the next day he dropped the EX's face and I was like ...."whew! that was a close one."

I could get with Prince and some real serious amazing gospel music....but what if made me think he lost a bet to hannah cuz - his taste level has never sunk thaaaaaat low. i'll bet what if was somehow hannahs idea lololol I think Prince is definitely moving toward a less dogmatic approach even if its only to be more inclusive, thats a good thing.

I'm going to stick with my original assessment that to me these are not spiritual albums, which probably means our definitions of "spiritual" are different, which is OK.

Se7en said:

I'm going to stick with my original assessment that to me these are not spiritual albums, which probably means our definitions of "spiritual" are different, which is OK.

Fair enough Se7en! My definintion is quite expansive......as in spirituality (which can be negative or positive) can be seen at 1:30 am at the climax of a deep house music {which uses worship music forms in dance contexts} sets by someone that DJs with love the intent to uplift folks like Marques Wyatt or Osunlade. I've seen people's faces and watched/participated in those moments. Not sexual just community driven euphoria and healing just like people singing in tongues in evangelic churches. Just what the late Larry Levan and the late Frankie Knuckles intended when they helped create that style of dance music. I cast a pretty wide net as far as spirituality is concerned!

mrgone777 said:

Se7en said:

I'm going to stick with my original assessment that to me these are not spiritual albums, which probably means our definitions of "spiritual" are different, which is OK.

Fair enough Se7en! My definintion is quite expansive......as in spirituality (which can be negative or positive) can be seen at 1:30 am at the climax of a deep house music {which uses worship music forms in dance contexts} sets by someone that DJs with love the intent to uplift folks like Marques Wyatt or Osunlade. I've seen people's faces and watched/participated in those moments. Not sexual just community driven euphoria and healing just like people singing in tongues in evangelic churches. Just what the late Larry Levan and the late Frankie Knuckles intended when they helped create that style of dance music. I cast a pretty wide net as far as spirituality is concerned!

.

Talk about putting the cart before the house. "X give sme the same feeling as Y so X = Y." No, X and Y simply appeal to the same parts of your brain using very similar techniques, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.

KingSausage said:

If we cast the net that wide it might just be easier to identify albums that AREN'T spiritual. I mean, I think I took a dump this morning that was spiritual under that definition.

.

Exactly.

terrig said:

Well, at the very least... its apparent you and your 3rd eye haven't been acquainted yet. So your comments aren't much of a surprise.

.

Religious people all say the same crap, and then they fall out of their religion and suddenly they realise they've just been parrotting nonsense. You have a worldview and try to fit Prince into it, but you're just fooling yourself. Years ago Prince was babbling about pharaos, not it's this third eye schtick. And next week he'll discover another guru and some other shit will be injected into his lyrics or his art. Dude isn't deep.