Graycap23 said:

fusk said:

.

from the outside, how can you tell if prince doesn't want to play the game or if he's just playing the game poorly?

How can u tell?

I can't take this question seriously.

.

? It's a rhetorical question. You can't tell what his intentions are. The post I was responding to was arguing that Prince isn't a poor businessman, he just doesn't care to do "good business". I'm saying you can't tell one way or the other.

I personally rate Prince 92-96 up there with 80-88, he'd just lost his popularity by then.

81 - 88: Prolific, pioneering genius. Fantastic protege output. The planets aligned.

89 - 95: Prolific genius, updated instruments and recording equipment with a new sound for a new generation - A new power generation... A new name. Mixed bag of protege output. The planet alignment was a little wonky at times but still very straight by and large.

96 - 00: Prolific, searching for a hit, the wilderness years, new name is actually silly it turns out. Not much protege output. The planets did not align.

01 - 03: Prolific, god bothering jazziness, great tours, average output. Prince is back... in name only. Not much protege output. Planet alignment? What planets? Perhaps the planets of pseudo-jazz showed up for a brief zig zag.

04 - 10: Prolific but uneven, god bothering at times, searching for a hit at times but steady. Some great tours, poor protege output. Occasional planet alignment could be seen through a good telescope.

11 - 13: Not so prolific, no searching for hits, no albums, a little god bothering, weird look, mid life crisis, ok protege output. Telescope broken, planets gone.

14 - ??: Schitzophrenic releases, fresh (Josh) sound on one hand, a little dull (3EG) on the other, confused output, erratic touring, potentially good protege projects. Two universes where the planets aligned in one, and imploded under their own gravity in another.

If Prince worked for CERN he would have discovered gravity waves, dark energy and the Higgs boson in the 80's and would have confirmed his discoveries, on an updated collider in the early 90s. After that he would have spent most of his time making coffee with the occasional quantum physics discovery keeping him in employment.

lezama said:

RJOrion said:

if Prince never got high, how can his appearance at that James Brown concert years ago when BigChick carried him onstage and P clearly seemed too high to function properly , then BigChick had to carry him off the stage causing P to knock over some stage props...Michael Jackson and James Brown were looking at P like, "WTF is wrong with this boy?"...i proudly wave the superfan flag for Prince, but it seems he clearly, as most of us have, at least experimented with gettin high...different artists have maintained a clean public persona for years, only to reveal later that they did indeed use (philip bailey EWF) ...some never tell it because its really no ones business, and of course its always been illegal...considering how hes always tried to maintain his privacy, Prince would probably never admit to any drug use...why?

As any medical professional can tell you, cortisol, adrenaline and neorepinephrine all get you "high" (and not in a good way) in a way that can make you look like someone on drugs, but none require drugs to do so.

Everyone who thinks he never did drugs is VERY naive.

pray4rain said:

lezama said:

As any medical professional can tell you, cortisol, adrenaline and neorepinephrine all get you "high" (and not in a good way) in a way that can make you look like someone on drugs, but none require drugs to do so.

Everyone who thinks he never did drugs is VERY naive.

I didnt say he didnt. Learn to read please. I was responding to the person who specifically mentioned the James Brown concert as if that was drug related.

fusk said:

Graycap23 said:

How can u tell?

I can't take this question seriously.

.

? It's a rhetorical question. You can't tell what his intentions are. The post I was responding to was arguing that Prince isn't a poor businessman, he just doesn't care to do "good business". I'm saying you can't tell one way or the other.

Ok..........I get it. Thanks 4 the clarification.

fusk said:

Graycap23 said:

How can u tell?

I can't take this question seriously.

.

? It's a rhetorical question. You can't tell what his intentions are. The post I was responding to was arguing that Prince isn't a poor businessman, he just doesn't care to do "good business". I'm saying you can't tell one way or the other.

Depends on what you mean by good and poor no? The relevant questions are what are the specific objectives Prince was looking for. If it was just commercial success then we could say that he was a poor businessman, without question. But we know that independence was just as much a factor and concern for him in much of his career, which changes the definition of what it meant for him to be successful. Playing "the game" of the music industry by conventional standards would have gone against one of his leading criteria of personal success.

RJOrion said:

lezama said:

As any medical professional can tell you, cortisol, adrenaline and neorepinephrine all get you "high" (and not in a good way) in a way that can make you look like someone on drugs, but none require drugs to do so.

Doctor Fink (a medical professional) and Susan Rogers and others say that P was tripping on E 12/1/1987.. [Edited 4/12/15 19:41pm] [Edited 4/12/15 19:57pm] [Edited 4/12/15 19:58pm]

Is he really a medical professional?

I don't believe he's declined, just changed with age.

His new music doesn't captivate me like his pre-Rainbow Chilidren output but he's just not the same person/musician (to me) anymore.

-

I read through the recent Detroit show thread and while the comments are very positive, those shows do absolutely nothing for me. He's perfected the 'show' but he's not 'living' the music that once so capitivated me. This isn't a critisism, just my pov.

-

I believe he's too old (life experience, not age) to ever have a broken heart again and it's that longing that funked me. We still buy every new release/single/album/whatever but it's the Vault stuff we want. That pasion of desperation that he very rarely has anymore (The Breakdown) has faded greatly. Just life.

-

We already have more music from Prince than we ever deserved.

There hasn't been 2 days in a row the past 20 years that I haven't listened to his music.

peege43 said:

I recently read a thread in which almost everyone designated Prince's "classic" period as around 1978-1988 - up through Lovesexy. I must admit, I stopped listening to most of his output regularly after SOTT, and even after revisiting all of his albums in the 90s and 2000s later, I was always drawn back to the 80s Prince.

I know there are those that like each of his albums since Lovesexy, and I recognize that TGE, 3121 and Musicology got somewhat favorable reviews. But the quality of the output clearly went down if you look at sales, chart success and (most) reviews.

What's the reason? Was it the departure of Wendy & Lisa? His series of religious conversions? His squabble with Warner Brothers? All of the above? Or do you have your own theory?

The existence of a "classic period" doesn't necessarly imply a loss in quality or a decline afterwards, simply that a moment in the artist's history had more cultural significance that what came next. The premise of the thread is flawed.

In the past, he was all about building a legacy. Now he seems content to enjoy the legacy he's already built. You know what? That is perfeclty fine. Others have rested on far less impressive laurels, and Prince deserves to enjoy what he's worked hard and sacrificed for. That being said, it's hard to write songs with the same inspiration and urgency when people will love and revere you no matter what for already having written Purple Rain and Sign 'O' the Times.

[Edited 4/14/15 9:52am]

databank said:

peege43 said:

I recently read a thread in which almost everyone designated Prince's "classic" period as around 1978-1988 - up through Lovesexy. I must admit, I stopped listening to most of his output regularly after SOTT, and even after revisiting all of his albums in the 90s and 2000s later, I was always drawn back to the 80s Prince.

I know there are those that like each of his albums since Lovesexy, and I recognize that TGE, 3121 and Musicology got somewhat favorable reviews. But the quality of the output clearly went down if you look at sales, chart success and (most) reviews.

What's the reason? Was it the departure of Wendy & Lisa? His series of religious conversions? His squabble with Warner Brothers? All of the above? Or do you have your own theory?

The existence of a "classic period" doesn't necessarly imply a loss in quality or a decline afterwards, simply that a moment in the artist's history had more cultural significance that what came next. The premise of the thread is flawed.

The "flawed premise" has generated 5 pages of interesting discussion. Face it: For the most part, the quality of his work after Lovesexy declined. Period. Discuss that instead of poking holes in a sentence.

peege43 said:

databank said:

The existence of a "classic period" doesn't necessarly imply a loss in quality or a decline afterwards, simply that a moment in the artist's history had more cultural significance that what came next. The premise of the thread is flawed.

The "flawed premise" has generated 5 pages of interesting discussion. Face it: For the most part, the quality of his work after Lovesexy declined. Period. Discuss that instead of poking holes in a sentence.

I don't really agree with this.

There are many factors other than quality of work.

Graycap23 said:

peege43 said:

The "flawed premise" has generated 5 pages of interesting discussion. Face it: For the most part, the quality of his work after Lovesexy declined. Period. Discuss that instead of poking holes in a sentence.

I don't really agree with this.

There are many factors other than quality of work.

Sure, and there have been discussions on this thread about commercial success, reaching a new generation of fans, religion and live shows. There is no doubt that Prince is still a draw, and is one of the best entertainers ever. My premise (along with others including v10letblues) is still the same: Something happened suddenly around the Lovesexy period. You look at critical reviews, threads on prince.org, and they mostly all agree that his best work - critically, artistically - was 1978-1988. That's what I'm trying to get at is what happened to the quality of work.

peege43 said:

Graycap23 said:

I don't really agree with this.

There are many factors other than quality of work.

Sure, and there have been discussions on this thread about commercial success, reaching a new generation of fans, religion and live shows. There is no doubt that Prince is still a draw, and is one of the best entertainers ever. My premise (along with others including v10letblues) is still the same: Something happened suddenly around the Lovesexy period. You look at critical reviews, threads on prince.org, and they mostly all agree that his best work - critically, artistically - was 1978-1988. That's what I'm trying to get at is what happened to the quality of work.

If you truly listened to a lot of the stuff unreleased from the acclaimed high periods there has always been lackluster songs produced. We can gloss over it as much as we like but thats the truth. He's never stopped producing quality, there's just less cohesion and more aesthetic diversion than ever that loses people. He's mentally all over the place, and most people like what they like and don't compromise. Thats not quality, thats aesthetics (at least at the song level). I dont think you'd find people that would deny the fact that his albums as a whole could be more cohesive (a la PR, Lovesexy, TRC etc). So maybe when you're saying quality, you're talking more about what's chosen for release and how it was released than the songs in and of themselves. Albums that I absolutely abhor with a passion (e.g. For You, GoldNigga, Exodus, Emancipation) others love, but I don't listen to anything of that aesthetic. I don't call them crap because I dont like them, I just accept that they're not for me. In the same way the people who like those albums may hate PlectrumElectrum I think that album is one of the best he's released in the past 15 years. So different strokes for different folks.

Recently I watched that officially filmed Musicology-show and it bored me to tears.

Entertainment-wise it seems pretty much over as well.

this is a ridiculous argument....he doesnt release his best stuff.

Pentacle said:

Recently I watched that officially filmed Musicology-show and it bored me to tears.

Entertainment-wise it seems pretty much over as well.

Graycap23 said:

Pentacle said:

Recently I watched that officially filmed Musicology-show and it bored me to tears.

Entertainment-wise it seems pretty much over as well.

Double . What the heck are you talking about?
Even his meh-est songs are transfigured live.

bonatoc said:

Graycap23 said:

Double . What the heck are you talking about?
Even his meh-est songs are transfigured live.

Yeah, I am very critical of Prince, but his live shows are still undeniably impressive.

I'm in the camp that believes he's totally washed up as a recording artist but almost just as good live as he ever was.

When the music historians put together their Essential Prince box, they will use next to nothing of his 21st century studio output.

As for live - maybe Gotta Broken Heart Again and Anotherloverholenyohead/Rock Lobster. That would be about it.

He should put himself in the vault.

dadeepop said:

Rumor is it's because he misplaced his LinnDrum and got all discombobulated.

HAHA!

yeah

apparently the 3 CD album Emancipation was a paean to XML tags!

Cx

PurpleKnight said:

In the past, he was all about building a legacy. Now he seems content to enjoy the legacy he's already built. You know what? That is perfeclty fine. Others have rested on far less impressive laurels, and Prince deserves to enjoy what he's worked hard and sacrificed for. That being said, it's hard to write songs with the same inspiration and urgency when people will love and revere you no matter what for already having written Purple Rain and Sign 'O' the Times.

[Edited 4/14/15 9:52am]

I don't think he is enjoying his 'Legacy' as much as he's enjoying the fruits of it

I don't think he allows himself or other to enjoy his legacy, like most people can't even view his videos

luvsexy4all said:

this is a ridiculous argument....he doesnt release his best stuff.

right?

peege43 said:

XxAxX said:

here's my theory: decline of prince??? please, in my opinion, no such thing! i've been loving the recent materials, prince has attained living legend status in the arts community, and dude still sells out his concerts in under an hour. what on earth are you even talking about????

Get out of your Prince worship mode for a moment and read the responses here. You're obviously in the minority.

clearly, not everyone got it right!

PRINCE has NOT declined. He is doing what he has always done...create music. If you don't like what he has released after Purple Rain, Parade, Sign O The Times, Lovesexy or The Gold Experience than that is "your" thing. NOT Prince's or the people who respect, enjoy and follow his art. He is just fine on his own, doing his thing.

PRINCE 1978 - 2015 = Exceptional Music.

Most talk about the "decline" I assume is limited, more or less, to him not turning out hits. To me, it goes beyond him simply getting too old for the kiddies. Instead, it was about Prince not fully embracing the Adult R&B market when it was fully embracing him during the Musicology era. Poor decisions on the business side of hit-making ruined his chance to start a new era of "lesser" hits from 2004 onward:

1. Not releasing singles to Urban AC radio.

2. Then not releasing the most radio-friendly singles.

3. Not vigorously supporting new singles with television performances, if at all.

As I've said to others, if he had done it right, then Prince would likely have 10 songs that would have appeared on the Pop 100 and Top 25 R&B...minimum! I submit that with his already amazing library of classic hits, this second era of "lesser" hits would be enough to keep him relevant. For those who listen to Adult R&B - think Charlie Wilson, who is 62. Imagine Prince getting the type of radio airplay that Uncle Charlie gets. R&B hits with an audience of about 10 million might not be the same as a Top 10 pop hit, but it would keep Prince out there in a meaningful way and inject freshness into his brand.

Sadly, based on the performance of This Could Be Us, it's possible that he has lost this market. If so, then Prince will likely never produce a "hit" of any kind again.