zennabell said:

Artistic decline or commercial decline?

He’s fallen hard in both respects.

Artistically, it’s not entirely his fault. What do they say? You have your whole life to make your debut album & two years to make your follow-up? While it took him until some time after his debut album to truly find his voice, once he did, Prince crafted a body of work that is unparalleled by other artists of his generation. His output from 1980 – 1988 is astonishing, even ignoring the countless songs he composed for other performers. His skills as a musician, composer & bandleader grew steadily during this period, due in no small part to the influence of people like Lisa & Wendy, Eric Leeds & others in his inner circle. Maybe it’s as simple as his best creative years are behind him.

Commercially? Tastes change. At a certain point, Prince found himself no longer setting trends in popular music, but struggling to keep up with them. The Lame Boyz & other attempts to gain a foothold in the genre were no match for legitimate rap & Prince was far too effeminate to be taken seriously as a new jack crooner by anyone but the true diehards.

Making matters worse, he continues to trample on his legacy by releasing bland, by the numbers albums that long time fans know the Prince of old could have polished off in a matter of hours. Nothing that challenges, excites or entices anyone with a discerning ear & only appeases the sycophants who will swallow anything he ejaculates. While religion & spirituality have long been a part of his music, it didn’t become so blatant & so dogmatic until the 1990s & his association with good old Brother Larry & in many ways, especially as it relates to the ongoing self-censorship, it’s been downhill ever since.

I'm inclined 2 agree.

bonatoc said:

The kind of "decline" you're referring to does not appy to Prince.

By the sheer volume of what he has produced, and with the help of God,
he will produce in the many years to come,

Prince is in a category of itself in the pop world.

I was talking mainly about the artistic (and critical) decline of Prince. Looking at allmusic.com's reviews (as close to "objective reviews" as we may get, whether you agree with their ratings or not), the first 10 Prince albums garnered an average of 4 stars (4.3 among fans). The next 17 albums get 3.2 stars (3.7 among fans).

So something happened around SOTT/Lovesexy. The one major thing that happened during that time was his freakout over The Black Album - he got spooked by it, and both Toure and Ronin Ro imply some possible drug use with Ingrid Chavez the night of the decision - and he started turning more religious, shelving that album and starting to work on Lovesexy, which some include in his best work, but I tend to rank it as the beginning of the decline.

The other big thing I get from this thread was his attempt to catch up with the musical Zeitgeist (New Jack Swing/hip-hop). He was trying to hard to catch up with the mainstream instead of doing whatever the hell he wanted to. He fired his interracial band and focused on being a purely R&B singer, which would have been fine if he had blazed his own path as he did in the early days. But too much of his later work is mushy ballads coupled with lite funk and some rap (there are exceptions to this, of course - "Loose" and "Lolita" are priceless, and "I Love You, But I Don't Trust U Anymore" is the best ballad he's done since "Sometimes It Snows In April").

Yes, I'm an 80s Prince fan. But I think there's a reason for that. He stopped evolving and treaded water for the next 25 years.

(And yes, I know there are fans who have loved every single thing he's ever put out and disagree with this entire thread. That's great. But if you accept my premise, I'd love to hear your theories.)

Sad but True..

This guy is looooong Gone!

jaawwnn said:

Aerogram said:

No way you can just dismiss age as a factor, both for the artist and his/her fan base -- not when the audience that drives pop culture remains young.

Oh commercially sure, but I don't really care how well prince does sales-wise anymore, he's had his moment in the pop sun. His age will always factor in his music, but it's not an excuse for having nothing to say about the world.

That's crazy, we just had Art Official Age, which certainly has statements "about the world" and is in my opinion his best album in ages. Other albums like TRC and Musicology had obvious artistic merit though they were not entirely successful (not a 3121 fan, couple of good songs on it). basically Prince had uneven output over the years, went through an artistic depression but I feel he did maintain his essence and it's still shining though brightly today, in spots on PlectrumElectrum and throughout AOA, which I'm convinced will ultimately stand tall in his discography.

You got to remember, there's many artists out there who wish they could have a "decline" as rich and interesting as Prince did.

[Edited 4/10/15 16:07pm]

bonatoc said:

The kind of "decline" you're referring to does not appy to Prince.

By the sheer volume of what he has produced, and with the help of God,
he will produce in the many years to come,

Prince is in a category of itself in the pop world.

Prince has to be judged on his Work, and that means from the massive influence

he had in the 00's and still has on today's productions
(no Pharrell without Prince, no "Slave 4 U", no "Toxic", heck, no Lady Gaga!).

The public ignores all the eras, all the richness there is, because it's too time-consuming.

Prince is a demanding artist. A very unique musician that puts out something,

and you hear that something, and you find it's crap, but then you're compelled to listen to it again

to make sure it's really crap. And most of the times, he has you.
You end to tell that sure, it's crap, but that even Prince's crap beats out anything you hear.

Which basically says that you don't think it's crap at all.

You're just pissed off because we can't have a world with radios blocked on Prince's frequencies.

We don't expect anything from The Vault because — hey! We already cracked it!

We zealots know the magnitude of the work accomplished.
Just the volume would be impressive.
And sure, there are failed experiments, but very few repetitions.
Of course, the same musical genres, but you can feel the man proceeding, polishing gimmicks,

perfecting his craft.

But when it's Genius (Moonbeam Levels, Dead On It, All My Dreams, and countless others),

it's bloody genius, and so the decline of Prince is something completely relative

to the person exposed to the real extent of his œuvre.

Prince showed the biggest balls of all the show-business by never replicating formulas,

and that cost him a career à la Sting, or McCartney, which would have make him a gazillionaire.

But he still made millions while keeping his total freedom (Whether he has too much is another ongoing debate).
And keeping this freedom while not giving a fuck of what people, heck, even fans, think of his music.
He puts it out there because he believes in it, but if people don't, that's fine.
How many of us would lie depressed in bed, drunk or drugged, remembering the Purple Rain years,
and thinking about your sales declinings, year after year after year?

What can I say? He's unique.

Decline does not apply to Prince.
He may be not the inventor of the home studio,

but he's surely the self-production ultimate Jedi, and that changed and still changes the whole music industry,

and is more and more relevant in its approach, considering the music industry budgets today,
apart of a few mammoths and the next teenager Kleenex thing, which are of course slaves to their contracts.

[Edited 4/10/15 7:00am]

This comment is perfection! YES.

emesem said:

Age does not account for a decline beginning in 1988. He was not even 30 then! Yes it explains why Bruno Mars can out Prince Prince in 2015 but does not explain what happened in 1989 and onwards Here is my list: 1) switch to digital synths and recording. This created a cheesier sound but worse it allowed him to layer track upon track upon track. 2) Prince's racial identity crisis. Too much of the 90s was spent on trying too hard. 3) Truth be told, Prince has terrible taste in contemporary music. He looked to the worst for musical inspiration. Don't even get me started on his fashion sense. 4) lacking a formal education and perhaps intellectually uninterested in the world during his 20s Prince was susceptible to conspiracy theories and pseudoreligious quackery. This filtered in to his music in unfortunate ways climaxing in the awfulness that was the worst parts of The Rainbow Children 5) really bad business, legal and marketing decisions 6) death of the baby and the end of his marriage with Mayte

7) He was a jerk to people in high places. He was a jerk to people in low places too but the people in high places were able to make life tough for him.

8) He never took a real break. No time off to recharge. No new life experiences to bring to his work. Result; Same topics over and over. He became a chareciture of himself.

[Edited 4/10/15 20:23pm]

Art Official Age Doesn't sound like a decline to me.

Aerogram said:

jaawwnn said:

Oh commercially sure, but I don't really care how well prince does sales-wise anymore, he's had his moment in the pop sun. His age will always factor in his music, but it's not an excuse for having nothing to say about the world.

That's crazy, we just had Art Official Age, which certainly has statements "about the world" and is in my opinion his best album in ages. Other albums like TRC and Musicology had obvious artistic merit though they were not entirely successful (not a 3121 fan, couple of good songs on it). basically Prince had uneven output over the years, went through an artistic depression but I feel he did maintain his essence and it's still shining though brightly today, in spots on PlectrumElectrum and throughout AOA, which I'm convinced will ultimately stand tall in his discography.

AOA doesn't do a lot for me, I think it sounds confused, disjointed and the theme all but disappears for the middle section of the album. I do like the album a fair bit nonetheless. If it works for you then cool, it's not his job to please everyone all of the time.

I suppose my standard for Prince is 'would I play this album to a new prince fan like i'd play them his 80's stuff'. The answer is rarely yes. I probably would play them the Rainbow Children, with a warning about the lyrics, and maybe Come, cos I think it's a solid listen. Otherwise i'd just be choosing tracks here and there from the past 20 years, you can make some amazing playlists.

You got to remember, there's many artists out there who wish they could have a "decline" as rich and interesting as Prince did.

True that. We're only so harsh because we hold him to the highest standards: his own.

[Edited 4/11/15 2:33am]

antics

arrogance, BS

lack of a hit single since 1994

bad production (mostly)

lack of world tours and real promo

RJOrion said:

the thread should be locked after bonatoc's comment...perfect closing argument...defense rests ...case closed...

bonatoc said:

RJOrion said:

the thread should be locked after bonatoc's comment...perfect closing argument...defense rests ...case closed...

Yes, thank you for that post. A lot of people point to artists who have sold better than Prince as if it somehow makes them smarter, never taking into account any of Prince's own decisions that influenced those sales (overflooding the market, for one). If he wanted to play the game, he would. But he didn't, and that's that...

BTW, Sting? I like the guy's music and The Police were/are a huge band, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's more popular/successful than Prince.

CharismaDove said:

A lot of people point to artists who have sold better than Prince as if it somehow makes them smarter, never taking into account any of Prince's own decisions that influenced those sales (overflooding the market, for one). If he wanted to play the game, he would. But he didn't, and that's that...

.

from the outside, how can you tell if prince doesn't want to play the game or if he's just playing the game poorly?

fusk said:

CharismaDove said:

A lot of people point to artists who have sold better than Prince as if it somehow makes them smarter, never taking into account any of Prince's own decisions that influenced those sales (overflooding the market, for one). If he wanted to play the game, he would. But he didn't, and that's that...

.

from the outside, how can you tell if prince doesn't want to play the game or if he's just playing the game poorly?

How can u tell?

I can't take this question seriously.

Any 1 that Puts Prince and Drugs 2gether has never really listen 2 HIS music. People that use always think all other do! Clean up ur act and put down the PIPE!

VERY TRUE

Ego101 said:

Sad but True..

This guy is looooong Gone!

RJOrion said:

if Prince never got high, how can his appearance at that James Brown concert years ago when BigChick carried him onstage and P clearly seemed too high to function properly , then BigChick had to carry him off the stage causing P to knock over some stage props...Michael Jackson and James Brown were looking at P like, "WTF is wrong with this boy?"...i proudly wave the superfan flag for Prince, but it seems he clearly, as most of us have, at least experimented with gettin high...different artists have maintained a clean public persona for years, only to reveal later that they did indeed use (philip bailey EWF) ...some never tell it because its really no ones business, and of course its always been illegal...considering how hes always tried to maintain his privacy, Prince would probably never admit to any drug use...why?

As any medical professional can tell you, cortisol, adrenaline and neorepinephrine all get you "high" (and not in a good way) in a way that can make you look like someone on drugs, but none require drugs to do so.

peege43 said:

I recently read a thread in which almost everyone designated Prince's "classic" period as around 1978-1988 - up through Lovesexy. I must admit, I stopped listening to most of his output regularly after SOTT, and even after revisiting all of his albums in the 90s and 2000s later, I was always drawn back to the 80s Prince.

I know there are those that like each of his albums since Lovesexy, and I recognize that TGE, 3121 and Musicology got somewhat favorable reviews. But the quality of the output clearly went down if you look at sales, chart success and (most) reviews.

What's the reason? Was it the departure of Wendy & Lisa? His series of religious conversions? His squabble with Warner Brothers? All of the above? Or do you have your own theory?

here's my theory: decline of prince??? please, in my opinion, no such thing! i've been loving the recent materials, prince has attained living legend status in the arts community, and dude still sells out his concerts in under an hour. what on earth are you even talking about????

CharismaDove said:

BTW, Sting? I like the guy's music and The Police were/are a huge band, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's more popular/successful than Prince.

The number of radio stations playing one of "Police" hits (90% composed/written by Sting) as I type,
is far higher than the number of radio stations playing "Kiss", "Cream" or "Purple Rain".
"Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic", "Roxane" amongst others are kind of mandatory for an european rock radio station play-list.

Sting is a cash-cow.
See how high The Police ranks.

Gordon Matthew Thomas Sumner cashes in most of it, since their first album.

I've seen that The Police sales are half of what Prince sold, but airplay, for 30 years?
Not to mention Puff Daddy.

[Edited 4/12/15 10:31am]

XxAxX said:

peege43 said:

I recently read a thread in which almost everyone designated Prince's "classic" period as around 1978-1988 - up through Lovesexy. I must admit, I stopped listening to most of his output regularly after SOTT, and even after revisiting all of his albums in the 90s and 2000s later, I was always drawn back to the 80s Prince.

I know there are those that like each of his albums since Lovesexy, and I recognize that TGE, 3121 and Musicology got somewhat favorable reviews. But the quality of the output clearly went down if you look at sales, chart success and (most) reviews.

What's the reason? Was it the departure of Wendy & Lisa? His series of religious conversions? His squabble with Warner Brothers? All of the above? Or do you have your own theory?

here's my theory: decline of prince??? please, in my opinion, no such thing! i've been loving the recent materials, prince has attained living legend status in the arts community, and dude still sells out his concerts in under an hour. what on earth are you even talking about????

Get out of your Prince worship mode for a moment and read the responses here. You're obviously in the minority.

I like deebee's interpretation of what happened to Prince.

Here...here!

jaypotton said:

lezama said:

The one that would throw the guitar after the solo and start doing splits and stuff...

PurpleSkipper58 said:

If Prince from 1985 came into a studio, and challenged today-Prince to a Guitar-solo Battle, who would win? The one with raw, young energy or the one with more experience?

RJOrion said:

lezama said:

As any medical professional can tell you, cortisol, adrenaline and neorepinephrine all get you "high" (and not in a good way) in a way that can make you look like someone on drugs, but none require drugs to do so.

Doctor Fink (a medical professional) and Susan Rogers and others say that P was tripping on E 12/1/1987.. [Edited 4/12/15 19:41pm] [Edited 4/12/15 19:57pm] [Edited 4/12/15 19:58pm]

Sorry but what does 1987 have to do with 1983? Do you know what E does? If you don't let me inform you that it doesn't make you do what Prince did onstage in 1983. I mentioned the neurochemicals I mentioned because I'm no stranger to any of this stuff.