V10LETBLUES said:

Polo1026 said:

Prince didn't really decline as much as he lost the cool factor to a new generation of fans. A lot of people will say that Prince stopped being relevent in 1988-90 but in truth he was still being featured on MTV/BET/VH1 in 1994-96. As a kid I got Prince because he was my Uncles favorite star and he was a huge rebel of that time. By the time the mid 90's was around none of the kids wanted a tiny man with high heeled boots and a falsetto singing to them and no urban radio was playing anything with a guitar on it. It's not that people no longer understood that Prince was an incredible musician, it was that a generation of kids chose rap and grunge as the cool rebel music. This kind of thing happens all the time in music. The generation that loved Elvis is not the generation that loved Elton John. This is a natural thing but people always want to make it out to be some kind of fatal flaw of Prince or that the Revolution was disbanded and neither of those have any merit as reasons. Time waits for no man and just like today, Jay-Z's time has passed and Kendrick Lamar and J. Cole have arrived. It's nothing that Jay-Z did or could be blamed on Jay-Z, he doesn't have the music that grabs kids anymore. An artist just has to sit back and wait for their time to come again and as you can see now Prince is more respected and creates more buzz today than back in his heyday. It's all cyclical, what Prince should be applauded for is that he stayed his course and stayed ready. He didn't disappear and use drugs and waste his talents and become a typical former big star sad story. He did jazz albums, concept albums and music he wanted to try and kept his skills sharp. People will also use religion as his downfall which is ridiculous becuase his music always had a God influence and what would the climax to story of his life be if he never surrendered to God? Who didn't see that coming especially after Lovesexy? Everything about his music was juxtaposed to his torment of God 'calling' him and his own sinful desires. That tension had to be resolved and if anyone thought Prince was always going to be the pied piper of sexuality then what can say is those people never got his lyrics. Bottomline for me is, people will come up with all kinds of bogus reasons but the truth is it passed him by just like it passed others before him.

Well he was never that big with mainstream audiences, but had a devoted hardcore following that was hardcore because he was THAT good.

REGARDLESS of how weird or freaky he came across, his talent always trumped the spectacle.

I think he kinda abandoned that hardcore demographic who loved all his work as aesoteric as some of it was, and watered it down to try and jump on the then MTV gloss.

Maybe that's the reason for the decline. He wanted a bigger audience, to be everything to everybody, and was in turn rejected for coming off as pandering and lightweight for courting the transient disposibe youth market at ripe old age of 35. I guess to the MTV generation he was old. He was a legendary creative artist muscian pedeling down instead of keeping up. Thats never a good look.

[Edited 4/9/15 15:01pm]

I agree with you. If we are talking about MAINSTREAM Prince... Honestly I can only say Purple Rain era and Diamonds and Pearls era were his real mainstream appeal to the public.

Even with albums like 1999 selling over 6M it didn't start to sell that well until after Purple Rain was released and exposed Prince to the world.

Batman was more succesfull due to the movie and the fans of the film buying that album then the general music audience.

Purple Rain he was everwhere, tours, sales, etc... Diamonds and Pearls was his last real mainstream appeal, even with the surface of grunge, hip hop and house music being the popularity during that time Prince still was very commercial that year. With tv appearcnes, Arsenio Hall, MTV music awards, soul train award honor, selling over 6.7m copies, the tour, another #1 hit with Cream, etc...

V10LETBLUES said:

Polo1026 said:

Prince didn't really decline as much as he lost the cool factor to a new generation of fans. A lot of people will say that Prince stopped being relevent in 1988-90 but in truth he was still being featured on MTV/BET/VH1 in 1994-96. As a kid I got Prince because he was my Uncles favorite star and he was a huge rebel of that time. By the time the mid 90's was around none of the kids wanted a tiny man with high heeled boots and a falsetto singing to them and no urban radio was playing anything with a guitar on it. It's not that people no longer understood that Prince was an incredible musician, it was that a generation of kids chose rap and grunge as the cool rebel music. This kind of thing happens all the time in music. The generation that loved Elvis is not the generation that loved Elton John. This is a natural thing but people always want to make it out to be some kind of fatal flaw of Prince or that the Revolution was disbanded and neither of those have any merit as reasons. Time waits for no man and just like today, Jay-Z's time has passed and Kendrick Lamar and J. Cole have arrived. It's nothing that Jay-Z did or could be blamed on Jay-Z, he doesn't have the music that grabs kids anymore. An artist just has to sit back and wait for their time to come again and as you can see now Prince is more respected and creates more buzz today than back in his heyday. It's all cyclical, what Prince should be applauded for is that he stayed his course and stayed ready. He didn't disappear and use drugs and waste his talents and become a typical former big star sad story. He did jazz albums, concept albums and music he wanted to try and kept his skills sharp. People will also use religion as his downfall which is ridiculous becuase his music always had a God influence and what would the climax to story of his life be if he never surrendered to God? Who didn't see that coming especially after Lovesexy? Everything about his music was juxtaposed to his torment of God 'calling' him and his own sinful desires. That tension had to be resolved and if anyone thought Prince was always going to be the pied piper of sexuality then what can say is those people never got his lyrics. Bottomline for me is, people will come up with all kinds of bogus reasons but the truth is it passed him by just like it passed others before him.

Well he was never that big with mainstream audiences, but had a devoted hardcore following that was hardcore because he was THAT good.

REGARDLESS of how weird or freaky he came across, his talent always trumped the spectacle.

I think he kinda abandoned that hardcore demographic who loved all his work as aesoteric as some of it was, and watered it down to try and jump on the then MTV gloss.

Maybe that's the reason for the decline. He wanted a bigger audience, to be everything to everybody, and was in turn rejected for coming off as pandering and lightweight for courting the transient disposibe youth market at ripe old age of 35. I guess to the MTV generation he was old. He was a legendary creative artist muscian pedeling down instead of keeping up. Thats never a good look.

[Edited 4/9/15 15:01pm]

First you say it's the drugs, then you admit you don't have a shred of evidence, then to top it all you argue that Prince was never that big with mainstream audiences, when in fact he's the only person to place a single, an album AND a movie at the top of the charts in the same week. The album stayed there for the better part of a whole year. I wonder which non-mainstream audience kept it there.

Polo1026 got it exactly right, read his post again and weep.

Prince's last real Platinum album was the Love Symbol album which sold around 1.2M in the U.S. alone.

After that he never had a real Platinum album based on sales that was not a Hits compilation or a Very Best of album. Come, Gold, Chaos, Emancipation, NPS, Rave, Rainbow Children... All never made the Platinum mark... Even Musicology was certified 2x Platinum in the U.S. due to more of the concert give aways that were included in the "sales"...

feeluupp said:

Prince's last real Platinum album was the Love Symbol album which sold around 1.2M in the U.S. alone.

After that he never had a real Platinum album based on sales that was not a Hits compilation or a Very Best of album. Come, Gold, Chaos, Emancipation, NPS, Rave, Rainbow Children... All never made the Platinum mark... Even Musicology was certified 2x Platinum in the U.S. due to more of the concert give aways that were included in the "sales"...

Prince decline in sales is very much a natural aspect of pop music, you can deny it but it happens to the vast majority of recording artists.

Artistically, completely dismissing Prince after Lovesexy is the height of superficiality because you just stick the safest canon, people do that all the time. "Only the early stuff" is such a cliché, it's the laziest view to take in most cases, you hear that all the time about scores of artists and people who say those things are probably the same ones you can fool with McDonald food at a foodie convention if you first slice the Happy Meal artistically then call it organic.

Fact is Prince went on to write many great songs after Lovesexy, right up to his latest effort, Art Official Age.

luvsexy4all said:

[Name calling snip - luv4u]

it wasnt to a specific entity....just in general

if u think purple rain is his best stuff ..u shouldnt be on here

Polo1026 said:

Prince didn't really decline as much as he lost the cool factor to a new generation of fans. A lot of people will say that Prince stopped being relevent in 1988-90 but in truth he was still being featured on MTV/BET/VH1 in 1994-96. As a kid I got Prince because he was my Uncles favorite star and he was a huge rebel of that time. By the time the mid 90's was around none of the kids wanted a tiny man with high heeled boots and a falsetto singing to them and no urban radio was playing anything with a guitar on it. It's not that people no longer understood that Prince was an incredible musician, it was that a generation of kids chose rap and grunge as the cool rebel music. This kind of thing happens all the time in music. The generation that loved Elvis is not the generation that loved Elton John. This is a natural thing but people always want to make it out to be some kind of fatal flaw of Prince or that the Revolution was disbanded and neither of those have any merit as reasons. Time waits for no man and just like today, Jay-Z's time has passed and Kendrick Lamar and J. Cole have arrived. It's nothing that Jay-Z did or could be blamed on Jay-Z, he doesn't have the music that grabs kids anymore. ... Bottomline for me is, people will come up with all kinds of bogus reasons but the truth is it passed him by just like it passed others before him.

That's true - and, ultimately, that is kind of the main story. I suppose I wonder why, unlike some other artists, he never really had a 'second coming', even with stuff that only fans were listening to, but which felt like he was really inspired again. Some singers get a new method, or find some new musicians that really contribute something new to their sound - say, like Paul Simon finding African music and a new way of composing songs, after having been a bit washed-up in the early 80s.

With Prince, he put out a lot of really good stuff in the 90s, but it's less consistent, and I think post-1997 he never really seemed to get his mojo going again as a recording artist, at least in a sustained way. And then he started trying to imitate his old sound and method of making albums (Musicology, 20Ten, etc). It seems he's never stopped putting in the hours, and he's always been able to bring it live, but on record he's often tended to sound a bit uninspired, certainly in the 00s. And, tbh, it is a bit odd that, unlike his contemporaries like U2 or Madonna, even most of his live set is 'golden oldies', rather than material from his 'second wave'.

[Edited 4/9/15 16:15pm]

Polo1026 said:

Prince didn't really decline as much as he lost the cool factor to a new generation of fans. A lot of people will say that Prince stopped being relevent in 1988-90 but in truth he was still being featured on MTV/BET/VH1 in 1994-96. As a kid I got Prince because he was my Uncles favorite star and he was a huge rebel of that time. By the time the mid 90's was around none of the kids wanted a tiny man with high heeled boots and a falsetto singing to them and no urban radio was playing anything with a guitar on it. It's not that people no longer understood that Prince was an incredible musician, it was that a generation of kids chose rap and grunge as the cool rebel music. This kind of thing happens all the time in music. The generation that loved Elvis is not the generation that loved Elton John. This is a natural thing but people always want to make it out to be some kind of fatal flaw of Prince or that the Revolution was disbanded and neither of those have any merit as reasons. Time waits for no man and just like today, Jay-Z's time has passed and Kendrick Lamar and J. Cole have arrived. It's nothing that Jay-Z did or could be blamed on Jay-Z, he doesn't have the music that grabs kids anymore. An artist just has to sit back and wait for their time to come again and as you can see now Prince is more respected and creates more buzz today than back in his heyday. It's all cyclical, what Prince should be applauded for is that he stayed his course and stayed ready. He didn't disappear and use drugs and waste his talents and become a typical former big star sad story. He did jazz albums, concept albums and music he wanted to try and kept his skills sharp. People will also use religion as his downfall which is ridiculous becuase his music always had a God influence and what would the climax to story of his life be if he never surrendered to God? Who didn't see that coming especially after Lovesexy? Everything about his music was juxtaposed to his torment of God 'calling' him and his own sinful desires. That tension had to be resolved and if anyone thought Prince was always going to be the pied piper of sexuality then what can say is those people never got his lyrics. Bottomline for me is, people will come up with all kinds of bogus reasons but the truth is it passed him by just like it passed others before him.

I agree with 98% of this with the exception of religion. Prince has been on the religious/spiritual side from day one but he never let it taint his art, at least not 2 me. As of 1996, once he converted to J.W. he has self censored his own art the point that even the hard core fans has gotten bored with it on some level. It's like a ball player playing with one hand behind his back and trying 2 complete as if he is playing with both hands. If u read or listen 2 his lyrics pre 1996 vs post 1996, it is so obvious that a blind man can see the difference.

Prince already told ya'll on theTavis Smiley show back in 1998..

After a while its all just OLD skin!

Aerogram said:

feeluupp said:

Prince's last real Platinum album was the Love Symbol album which sold around 1.2M in the U.S. alone.

After that he never had a real Platinum album based on sales that was not a Hits compilation or a Very Best of album. Come, Gold, Chaos, Emancipation, NPS, Rave, Rainbow Children... All never made the Platinum mark... Even Musicology was certified 2x Platinum in the U.S. due to more of the concert give aways that were included in the "sales"...

Prince decline in sales is very much a natural aspect of pop music, you can deny it but it happens to the vast majority of recording artists.

Artistically, completely dismissing Prince after Lovesexy is the height of superficiality because you just stick the safest canon, people do that all the time. "Only the early stuff" is such a cliché, it's the laziest view to take in most cases, you hear that all the time about scores of artists and people who say those things are probably the same ones you can fool with McDonald food at a foodie convention if you first slice the Happy Meal artistically then call it organic.

Fact is Prince went on to write many great songs after Lovesexy, right up to his latest effort, Art Official Age.

Prince did indeed write many great songs after Lovesexy no doubt... However personally I can never compare all those other albums he released to anything of his "early stuff" cause it's just transparent... The genius and brilliance of those early albums to his other works...

I always like to compare this to fighting, it's like seeing the old boxers back in the day after they pass their prime the fact is they are just not as good as they once were. Prince's prime was his 80's albums. Yes he made some great songs, some decent albums after Lovesexy... But none can hold up to the GENIUS that he became credited for.

the reason is obvious. He's burnt out. It happens to all artists no matter how great you are. Look at what happened to Stevie Wonder. Another contributing factor is his partial hearing loss. he must have tinnitus something awful

warning2all said:

The decline started with "Diamonds and Pearls" when he put out there: "Modern-Day Mozart". With that, he was telling the world that he was a "Genius". With that, he thought that anything he released was worthy. With that era, he was no longer hungry- but started acting like an angry, spoiled child with a $100 Million Dollar Contract--delivering "Contractual Obligation" albums thereby deliberately shortchanging Warners and his record buying following. I dont blame anyone for not buying Prince albums ever since. In reality- he should have always given his best and realized how fortunate he was in this world to have the opprutunity to release albums to people supporting him. Once he got his "Emancipation"- "free to do what I want to". By that point- he'd alienated too many people and more and more and more weaker tracks appeared on albums with this so called "emancipation" that it just became obivious he peaked as a creative Songwriter. Now hes just about Power. Control. Ego. Somebody needs to tell him hes an oldies act who doesnt sell albums- dont blame Warner (AOA).

Yeah, I think you bring up some important points here.

Polo1026 said:

Prince didn't really decline as much as he lost the cool factor to a new generation of fans. A lot of people will say that Prince stopped being relevent in 1988-90 but in truth he was still being featured on MTV/BET/VH1 in 1994-96. As a kid I got Prince because he was my Uncles favorite star and he was a huge rebel of that time. By the time the mid 90's was around none of the kids wanted a tiny man with high heeled boots and a falsetto singing to them and no urban radio was playing anything with a guitar on it. It's not that people no longer understood that Prince was an incredible musician, it was that a generation of kids chose rap and grunge as the cool rebel music. This kind of thing happens all the time in music. The generation that loved Elvis is not the generation that loved Elton John. This is a natural thing but people always want to make it out to be some kind of fatal flaw of Prince or that the Revolution was disbanded and neither of those have any merit as reasons. Time waits for no man and just like today, Jay-Z's time has passed and Kendrick Lamar and J. Cole have arrived. It's nothing that Jay-Z did or could be blamed on Jay-Z, he doesn't have the music that grabs kids anymore. An artist just has to sit back and wait for their time to come again and as you can see now Prince is more respected and creates more buzz today than back in his heyday. It's all cyclical, what Prince should be applauded for is that he stayed his course and stayed ready. He didn't disappear and use drugs and waste his talents and become a typical former big star sad story. He did jazz albums, concept albums and music he wanted to try and kept his skills sharp. People will also use religion as his downfall which is ridiculous becuase his music always had a God influence and what would the climax to story of his life be if he never surrendered to God? Who didn't see that coming especially after Lovesexy? Everything about his music was juxtaposed to his torment of God 'calling' him and his own sinful desires. That tension had to be resolved and if anyone thought Prince was always going to be the pied piper of sexuality then what can say is those people never got his lyrics. Bottomline for me is, people will come up with all kinds of bogus reasons but the truth is it passed him by just like it passed others before him.

If you really believe that Prince's music is still as good as it used to be, then I can't help you...

Of course the 'kids' get new heroes, and with that comes commercial decline. But that doesn't explain the artistic decline.

He did what he wanted to some extent, yes; he did bad jazz albums, badconcept albums etc. And where he was searching before, religiously, he now has all the answers. Never a very fruitful state to be in. PLUS, he still uses extremely silly double entendres to get his sexual side out. If he was really serious about adhering to his JW tenets, he wouldn't do that. Prince wants to have his cake and eat it too. He stands for nothing.

Never really did, but as has been many said many times: if the music is great, you can forgive and choose to ignore a lot of things.

Aerogram said:

jaawwnn said:

Yeah, i don't buy prince's age as an excuse at all. Plenty of older artists release brilliant work as they get older, as long as they stay inspired and interact with the world. I'm not sure I see prince doing that though.

Bigger question though, will we ever be allowed rediscover Prince's life-long catalogue? Will there ever be a box set with F.U.N.K. on it for example? Prince'll probably just burn it all on his deathbed.

No way you can just dismiss age as a factor, both for the artist and his/her fan base -- not when the audience that drives pop culture remains young.

Oh commercially sure, but I don't really care how well prince does sales-wise anymore, he's had his moment in the pop sun. His age will always factor in his music, but it's not an excuse for having nothing to say about the world.

Graycap23 said:

His albums are no longer artistic statements, they are business transactions or strategic maneuvers (promoting tours, positioning himself for various deals). The only reason he communicates with fans is because he needs our money. If he hadn't he would continue to record, but straight for the vault. He is a bit of an outsider artist in his personality. I think he would be perfectly happy playing live for hours to an empty room in Paisley Park and continue to hoard tons of material in the vault for no one to hear.

jaypotton said:

And some other general comments... Who decides on the artistic merit of an artists work? Personally I don't play TRC that much because the Darth Vadar pseudo religious racist babble is too distracting but...the musicianship and music itself is awesome and easily a match for the 80s peak

Where is Prince now, 35 albums or more? How many songs released? How many written? Is that a fairer comparison to make when we talk about the well running dry (or drier)? [Edited 4/10/15 1:42am]

Sure, artistic merit can be subjective and no, I don't think the music on TRC is awesome. At least, it's nothing new if you've heard the Madhouse recordings.

As for the well running dry: recording one bad song each month or recording thirty bad songs a month....

Pentacle said:

I just can't believe what I am reading here. Post after post about how Prince has declined and he basically is some kind of douche bag ego maniac who is all about money and control. Now there are others here who are far more balanced in thier opinion. I just can't believe this a online fan community?! Just weird.

It's as simple as this to me. He has evolved as an artist and as a musician. He has chosen different avenues to express himself. I am very happy to just witness and experience what he chooses to share with the world. It's such a better place with him in it. As always I want Prince to do what Prince wants. If I don't like it I can move on. But I wouldn't come here and express my displeasure with him. I would have better things to do.

Some of you bring up very valid points. Like age and religion. But it's all saying the same thing to me. As one gets older one's perspective on life changes. I am just happy he is still touring and putting out music that I still love seeing and listening too. Still, I wouldn't want him to change one thing about the way he has made his career. It's his journey and my choice to keep it in my life.

In the end I would'nt say Prince has declined, I would say he has evolved!

vinaysfunk said:

In the end I would'nt say Prince has declined, I would say he has evolved!

I can see that side of it as well.

At the end of the day, I'm riding with Prince.

It's that simple if u ask me.

No artist is going 2 be 100% what u want him or her 2 be.

[Edited 4/10/15 6:40am]

Prince is someone who has his own visions of the world.

Would he have them if he was not a musician, who knows? Probably.

Because of the "job" destiny gave him, the horses went wild.

And so he's commited to his visions, even if he himself clearly has doubts on the road he should take.

One may wonder at the contumes and looks changes over the years : are they just to follow trends,

or are they a constant run for finding his own true persona?

I think he's the first to admit that he accomplished great things in his golden years.

But obviously he turned the page long ago.

I think he found himself in a position where he could just live as he intended.
To have an already paid psychoanalysis, while keeping on being creative,

being autist and dealing with all the shit Prince has in his brains.

Comfortably, with time for research and developement (N.E.W.S., The Sacrifice Of Victor, all the 90's basically),

and without having to turn MTV or the radio on : when Prince wants to hear FM Pop,

he goes in the studio, and a few hours later he's got the #1 of the week on Prince's Radio (broadcasting 24/24 in his head).

And he's all excited about it (till next week), and so he runs to his current ambassador to the real world,

and tries to make an interplanetary deal between Neptune and Earth.

The ambassador knows his Prince is nuts, but has all the prestige and the past legend to ease the selling to the discmaker.

And that's how Prince records continue to be printed.

He puts out 3121 and Musicology to sustain himself,

and he also takes great fun in quoting himself, rework old ideas, etc.

But the way I see it, at a certain point he enjoyed live more and more,

and so the record output is what it is.

But if you consider live...

Man.

He just got better and better in the last 20 years.

What if the REAL Prince discography was really his best live bootlegs,
starting from this so-called "decline"?

I always find "Sssh" to be an OK song.
But live, it's the best fucking awesome extraordinary kick-ass song there is.

And then you find yourself classifying the best live versions of "Sssh", and it's damn impossible.

[Edited 4/10/15 7:03am]

The kind of "decline" you're referring to does not appy to Prince.

By the sheer volume of what he has produced, and with the help of God,
he will produce in the many years to come,

Prince is in a category of itself in the pop world.

Prince has to be judged on his Work, and that means from the massive influence

he had in the 00's and still has on today's productions
(no Pharrell without Prince, no "Slave 4 U", no "Toxic", heck, no Lady Gaga!).

The public ignores all the eras, all the richness there is, because it's too time-consuming.

Prince is a demanding artist. A very unique musician that puts out something,

and you hear that something, and you find it's crap, but then you're compelled to listen to it again

to make sure it's really crap. And most of the times, he has you.
You end to tell that sure, it's crap, but that even Prince's crap beats out anything you hear.

Which basically says that you don't think it's crap at all.

You're just pissed off because we can't have a world with radios blocked on Prince's frequencies.

We don't expect anything from The Vault because — hey! We already cracked it!

We zealots know the magnitude of the work accomplished.
Just the volume would be impressive.
And sure, there are failed experiments, but very few repetitions.
Of course, the same musical genres, but you can feel the man proceeding, polishing gimmicks,

perfecting his craft.

But when it's Genius (Moonbeam Levels, Dead On It, All My Dreams, and countless others),

it's bloody genius, and so the decline of Prince is something completely relative

to the person exposed to the real extent of his œuvre.

Prince showed the biggest balls of all the show-business by never replicating formulas,

and that cost him a career à la Sting, or McCartney, which would have make him a gazillionaire.

But he still made millions while keeping his total freedom (Whether he has too much is another ongoing debate).
And keeping this freedom while not giving a fuck of what people, heck, even fans, think of his music.
He puts it out there because he believes in it, but if people don't, that's fine.
How many of us would lie depressed in bed, drunk or drugged, remembering the Purple Rain years,
and thinking about your sales declinings, year after year after year?

What can I say? He's unique.

Decline does not apply to Prince.
He may be not the inventor of the home studio,

but he's surely the self-production ultimate Jedi, and that changed and still changes the whole music industry,

and is more and more relevant in its approach, considering the music industry budgets today,
apart of a few mammoths and the next teenager Kleenex thing, which are of course slaves to their contracts.

[Edited 4/10/15 7:00am]

Diamonds and Pearls was the first album for me that made me question my love for Prince.

Why did Prince try to look hard and get into rap? What made him think people who liked rap music would accept him as "gangster"?

What did he see in Tony M?