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Thread started 03/20/15 7:09pm

JoeyCococo

Crappy sound- WB and Prince - embarrassing

I am an audiophile. That is a relative term. The guy who spent $25000 on his system laughs at me. However the one who spent $5000 on his, well, I laugh at him.

The point is I love amazing music and the recording itself. daft Pubks RAM- amazing. Prince - ONA , very good.

All of his back catalogue- terrible. As I am not in the industry, I often wander if the source material or age of the original trac is the issue or not .

However tonight I listen to my amps let loose on OffThe Wall and am sitting here laughing at Prince or WB at their seemingly total disregard for Prince's albums and back catalogue.

Come on...idiots. We don't have forever....I wants to hear my man I my ass kicking system. I wants to heathen BLAST like Mike.
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Reply #1 posted 03/20/15 7:17pm

JoeyCococo

JoeyCococo said:

I am an audiophile. That is a relative term. The guy who spent $25000 on his system laughs at me. However the one who spent $5000 on his, well, I laugh at him.

The point is I love amazing music and the recording itself. daft Pubks RAM- amazing. Prince - ONA , very good.

All of his back catalogue- terrible. As I am not in the industry, I often wander if the source material or age of the original trac is the issue or not .

However tonight I listen to my amps let loose on OffThe Wall and am sitting here laughing at Prince or WB at their seemingly total disregard for Prince's albums and back catalogue.

Come on...idiots. We don't have forever....I wants to hear my man I my ass kicking system. I wants to heathen BLAST like Mike.




Sorry,- have to preview my posts more.

Peince- I know you or someone who works for you reads this. If you want my money ( and all the other. 40 something's that have been with you for too damn long) release some old live stuff on the best quality possible and/or Starr rerelease go your greatness as reissues and revamped albums. We need to hear more clearly what you played on the bass, or the drums or the guitar etc. put another way, less Ghana sound way better than your recordings. I am aware of thateach and Black podcast where they reported or implied that WB was there euro elm....that they kept changing mgt..

Does not matter- it is your legacy.
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Reply #2 posted 03/20/15 7:39pm

V10LETBLUES


Agree about Off The Wall & Thriller. I am not a huge MJ fan but every time his music from that era plays can't help and be amazed at how great that sounds. And how well that "sound" has held up.
Sure MJ is a great artist, but a lot of credit also has to go to the producer, in that case Quincy Jones, and who did get his fair share of credit and grammy's for his work.

At this point in time maybe it is not worth dwelling on it any longer. Maybe it just is what it is, and we should just accept it. Accept that that is what the classic Prince sound is.

Not to compare, but there was a huge "restoration" of the paintings at the Sistine Chapel a few years back. A lot of work went into "restoring" them. And when it was all done, the paintings looked bright and cheerful and colorful. Gone were many layers that had acumulated over time, and look vastly diffrent from what we had known and loved. Many were not impressed.

Who know's, Prince is the artist. And we have all come to love the original work, so who is to really say? I've always liked it. Would we like it more if we fidled around with it? Maybe, but sometimes things are better left alone if preserved in their original state.

Prince himself re-recorded some tracks, notably 1999. Even when the artist himself goes back and mucks around with his own work, the results are not always as beloved. Cue George Lucas and his own "restorations" of his own work.

[Edited 3/21/15 12:03pm]

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Reply #3 posted 03/20/15 9:05pm

funksterr

Same here. It's almost impossible to hip anyone to The Time or Controversy because you can't even hear the shit on modern equipment.

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Reply #4 posted 03/21/15 1:21pm

stillwaiting

Have you given AOA a listen? It sounds awful...and if you thought that was bad, give a listen to Plect Elect. AOA is on volume 11 out of 10, and PE is on volume 15 out of 10...just awful distortion, and not the good kind Nirvana had going on way back when.

The pre 1994 albums have no bass at all, yeah, they sound awful...but the remasters ship has already sailed. There's no real money in reissues unless you make big deluxe box sets...and Prince and WB have the collective marketing genius of say a dead waterbug circling the drain. None at all. Prince recorded AOA with the Auto Tune Dim Wit with no musical knowledge, and Prince is probably confused that all the people who are into that did not become big Prince fans...and he's shocked that the "Prize Patrol Horn" in the intro of Art Official Cage did not have the effect Josh probably promised him when Josh likely told him how innovative and groundbreaking it was...

With no money in remasters, we will be lucky to get Purple Rain, 1999, and SOTT...and probably just get PR, if we get anything.

I've said it a billion times, but the only way to make money on Prince remasters are Big Box Sets with Tons of outtakes and live material..

Box 1 1978-1981 8 or CD for $110

Box 2 1982-1984 just 1999 and Purple Rain 8 CD $110

Box 3 1985-1995 20 CD $200

Box 4 More Outtakes 1976-2015 10 CD $120

That pretty much would be his entire career...and would make a tiny profit...not enough to inspire Prince or WB to actually do it.

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Reply #5 posted 03/21/15 2:02pm

V10LETBLUES

stillwaiting said:

Have you given AOA a listen? It sounds awful...and if you thought that was bad, give a listen to Plect Elect. AOA is on volume 11 out of 10, and PE is on volume 15 out of 10...just awful distortion, and not the good kind Nirvana had going on way back when.

The pre 1994 albums have no bass at all, yeah, they sound awful...but the remasters ship has already sailed. There's no real money in reissues unless you make big deluxe box sets...and Prince and WB have the collective marketing genius of say a dead waterbug circling the drain. None at all. Prince recorded AOA with the Auto Tune Dim Wit with no musical knowledge, and Prince is probably confused that all the people who are into that did not become big Prince fans...and he's shocked that the "Prize Patrol Horn" in the intro of Art Official Cage did not have the effect Josh probably promised him when Josh likely told him how innovative and groundbreaking it was...

With no money in remasters, we will be lucky to get Purple Rain, 1999, and SOTT...and probably just get PR, if we get anything.

I've said it a billion times, but the only way to make money on Prince remasters are Big Box Sets with Tons of outtakes and live material..

Box 1 1978-1981 8 or CD for $110

Box 2 1982-1984 just 1999 and Purple Rain 8 CD $110

Box 3 1985-1995 20 CD $200

Box 4 More Outtakes 1976-2015 10 CD $120

That pretty much would be his entire career...and would make a tiny profit...not enough to inspire Prince or WB to actually do it.


AOA has issues. It sounds so fucking bright, tinny and annoying. But the problems go far beyond that.

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Reply #6 posted 03/21/15 2:16pm

tobydavies

I was listening to AOA flac files, on a high resolution player, with some $750 dollar in ear monitors earlier today and some of the distortion on some tracks is #$%@ing awful. I always thought the album was badly recorded, ut I thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and try listeing to it on some decent gear (though the OP would laugh at my setup as it cost less than $5000).

Personally, I don't think his 80s albums sounds awful. They are not the best recorded albums ever, but they still sound better than almost anything that's been recorded in the past 20 years.

Anyone who thinks remasters (if they ever happen) will sound better than the originals is living in cloud cuckoo land.

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Reply #7 posted 03/21/15 2:34pm

stillwaiting

tobydavies said:

I was listening to AOA flac files, on a high resolution player, with some $750 dollar in ear monitors earlier today and some of the distortion on some tracks is #$%@ing awful. I always thought the album was badly recorded, ut I thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and try listeing to it on some decent gear (though the OP would laugh at my setup as it cost less than $5000).

Personally, I don't think his 80s albums sounds awful. They are not the best recorded albums ever, but they still sound better than almost anything that's been recorded in the past 20 years.

Anyone who thinks remasters (if they ever happen) will sound better than the originals is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The originals sound fine on vinyl. Since the transfers to CD were done in the dark ages, somebody forgot to make sure you could hear the bass. The Black Album and SOTT are by far the worst. From Lovesexy on, they get a little better, but the Symbol album is the first one where it even sounds good...and Gold is the first one that sounds really good. From 1997 on, most sound great, but from around 2009 or so...Prince's albums got too loud. So basically 1978-1990 too quiet 1991-1994 getting better, 1995-2004 fine... 2006-2010 a little too loud 2014: Are you kidding me? Did the producers of Metallica's Death Magnetic do this?

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Reply #8 posted 03/21/15 2:54pm

tobydavies

stillwaiting said:

Since the transfers to CD were done in the dark ages, somebody forgot to make sure you could hear the bass. The Black Album and SOTT are by far the worst.



I'll agree the Black Album doesn't sound great, but I don't get why people say Sign O the Time sounds bad ... it sounds okay to me.

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Reply #9 posted 03/21/15 3:14pm

V10LETBLUES

tobydavies said:



stillwaiting said:


Since the transfers to CD were done in the dark ages, somebody forgot to make sure you could hear the bass. The Black Album and SOTT are by far the worst.





I'll agree the Black Album doesn't sound great, but I don't get why people say Sign O the Time sounds bad ... it sounds okay to me.



It sounds muddy compared to the vinyl version.
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Reply #10 posted 03/21/15 3:23pm

jjam

Off The Wall's great but...I prefer the grittiness of Dirty Mind.

It's the source material. Prince, like Todd Rundgren, was more concerned about getting stuff down quickly as opposed to making sure it sounded the best it possibly could audio quality wise. A small price to pay for impulsive creative genius in both cases for me.

Give me rough around the edges any day.

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Reply #11 posted 03/21/15 5:33pm

TraSoul82

If Prince had somehow linked up with the audio engineers at Motown... DAMN. The thought of Prince working cordially with Berry Gordy is one that induces laughter, however.


Motown's mixing and mastering was simply unfair. I swear if you want to hear one of the greatest engineered albums of all time, pick up The Last Dragon soundtrack on CD. Even if you don't like the music, any audiophile will appreciate the sound. It's like every instrument is in is own perfect space relative to what's and it. And it has Vanity's 2nd greatest song on there.

Btw, according to wiki, John Matousek mastered the album. It's even more amazing considering the array of artists, genres, and production styles that he had to pull into such a cohesive package.
[Edited 3/21/15 17:41pm]
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Reply #12 posted 03/22/15 5:45am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

stillwaiting said:

Have you given AOA a listen? It sounds awful...and if you thought that was bad, give a listen to Plect Elect. AOA is on volume 11 out of 10, and PE is on volume 15 out of 10...just awful distortion, and not the good kind Nirvana had going on way back when.

.

The Nevermind remaster from a couple of years ago is equally shite. Utter disgrace. Thankfully the In Utero one is brilliant. Now let's hope they redo Nevermind properly.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #13 posted 03/22/15 5:56am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

jjam said:

Off The Wall's great but...I prefer the grittiness of Dirty Mind.

It's the source material. Prince, like Todd Rundgren, was more concerned about getting stuff down quickly as opposed to making sure it sounded the best it possibly could audio quality wise. A small price to pay for impulsive creative genius in both cases for me.

Give me rough around the edges any day.

.

The sourc ematerial is badly presented. Simply compare older editions of Sly Stone's Riot with recent remasterings and it is a world of difference: that's because the source material is in a bad state because Sly promised his one night stands to be featured on the album so he first took them to the recording studio in his house and had them sing ON THE ORIGINAL MASTER and then erased them. The original tape is in a seriously bad state and it took multiple tries over the years to improve the quality of the digital transfer.

.

Jimi Hendrix's records also received improved masters over the years, partly because technology advanced and because technicians became better at their jobs.

.

The same care should be applied to Prince's master tapes, so we can get rid of those barely adequate mastering jobs from the 1980s. The HDTracks releases already were some improvement and I'm guessing those were sourced from the "re-"mastering done in the early 1990s for The Hits/The B-Sides. There is plenty of room for improvement without brickwalling.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #14 posted 03/22/15 6:47am

jjam

Remastering can only do so much. Riot will never be even a near audiophile experience.

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Reply #15 posted 03/22/15 7:59am

funksterr

There is no hope for improving the sound of AOA. I think, they fucked that up at the recording stage and as far as I know, it is impossible to fix.

All the 80's albums have the potential for incredible remastering. I remember when SOTT came out. I was listening to EPMD and DJ Cash Money and Marvelous records. SOTT sounded so thin and weak in comparison. Especially the lower frequencies. I ripped the audio off the SOTT movie to a cassette and even that stood up better sonically against contemporary music at the time than what was on the SOTT album.

There is enormous headroom on the original master tapes for most of the Prince albums that truly matter, which is far more preferable for remastering. It's easier to remaster say, SOTT and Dirty Mind, than MJ's Dangerous or JJ Rhythm Nation, just because Prince's masters had a comparitively weak sound and didn't use the full range of decibels to begin with. Now if we can just get a Kickstarter up so Prince can pay for it. biggrin

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Reply #16 posted 03/22/15 9:04am

V10LETBLUES

^
Better yet, I'll leave a jar with Prince's face where I get coffee. We'll get her done.
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Reply #17 posted 03/22/15 10:46am

leecaldon

tobydavies said:

stillwaiting said:

Since the transfers to CD were done in the dark ages, somebody forgot to make sure you could hear the bass. The Black Album and SOTT are by far the worst.



I'll agree the Black Album doesn't sound great, but I don't get why people say Sign O the Time sounds bad ... it sounds okay to me.

It is the worst professionally released CD I own, in terms of its mastering.

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Reply #18 posted 03/22/15 10:58am

luvsexy4all

so basically EVEN with top quality headphones...one couldnt enjoy the full experience?

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Reply #19 posted 03/22/15 12:22pm

Aerogram

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Sure, the old albums need remastering, but I never trust anyone that self-describes as an audiophile, you know it's going to be the same deal as having diner with a self-described wine connoiseur: you'll have to sit there repeatedly paying homage to the person's refined taste (and generally more opulent lifestyle).

That's why I just love blind tests done on audiophiles and foodies --- sooo fun to watch them praise the hell out of a cheap bottle of wine they think is expensive or to describe all the "notes" they detect in "organic" food that's basically a Happy Meal cut in little slices and dressed to look homemade.

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Reply #20 posted 03/22/15 12:29pm

tobydavies

leecaldon said:

tobydavies said:



I'll agree the Black Album doesn't sound great, but I don't get why people say Sign O the Time sounds bad ... it sounds okay to me.

It is the worst professionally released CD I own, in terms of its mastering.



This comment must be down to one of the following ...

A) complete hyperbole
B) you only own one CD
C) there is more than one versions of the CD and you've got a very poor one

... because I've just had a quick listen to SOTT and there is plenty of bass, it's sounds crisp and clear, with plenty of dynamic range.

I've heard far, far worse.

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Reply #21 posted 03/23/15 4:37am

leecaldon

tobydavies said:

leecaldon said:

It is the worst professionally released CD I own, in terms of its mastering.



This comment must be down to one of the following ...

A) complete hyperbole
B) you only own one CD
C) there is more than one versions of the CD and you've got a very poor one

... because I've just had a quick listen to SOTT and there is plenty of bass, it's sounds crisp and clear, with plenty of dynamic range.

I've heard far, far worse.

I don't think my opinion on this is an uncommon one on here - people have been complaining about the SOTT CD for years.

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Reply #22 posted 03/24/15 6:16pm

JoeyCococo

Aerogram said:[quote]

Sure, the old albums need remastering, but I never trust anyone that self-describes as an audiophile, you know it's going to be the same deal as having diner with a self-described wine connoiseur: you'll have to sit there repeatedly paying homage to the person's refined taste (and generally more opulent lifestyle).



That's why I just love blind tests done on audiophiles and foodies --- sooo fun to watch them praise the hell out of a cheap bottle of wine they think is expensive or to describe all the "notes" they detect in "organic" food that's basically a Happy Meal cut in little slices and dressed to look homemade.



I started this- I do agree with what you said. There is a lot of BS out there but not exactly as you described. Being I to great quality sound is one thing. It is another when you lose perspective and try to convince people less interested than you to the virtues if one type of speaker cable vs another. It is too slight to mention to someone who does not really care.


Having said that, Prince albums of the last 10-15 years are too loud. So many of his contemporaries have out out much better sounding albums- TTF Vibrator!! Fantastic. D'Angelo
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Reply #23 posted 03/24/15 7:55pm

TikiColadas

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Sure the older albums on CD could be better mastered however, they still sound great to me as I loev the music and I especially LOVE Art Official Age. I have a high end system and regardless of if listen to the AOA album on that, headphones or in the car I feel it sounds just fine. I love the music, the album and the current output from PRINCE.

Dad. Cartoonist. Illustrator. TOPPS Star Wars and Walking Dead Illustrator. Film Illustrator. JEDI. PRINCE Fan. www.theartofprince.com

www.jonathancaustrita.com
www.theartofprince.com
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Reply #24 posted 03/26/15 12:06am

breakdown2k14

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Sign of the Times CD sounds awful ,the sound is so low on most of the tracks
There's Joy in repetition
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Reply #25 posted 03/26/15 12:07am

breakdown2k14

avatar

TikiColadas said:

Sure the older albums on CD could be better mastered however, they still sound great to me as I loev the music and I especially LOVE Art Official Age. I have a high end system and regardless of if listen to the AOA album on that, headphones or in the car I feel it sounds just fine. I love the music, the album and the current output from PRINCE.


I agree with that ,well said
There's Joy in repetition
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Reply #26 posted 03/30/15 1:29am

SanDiegoFunkDa
ddy

All of the 80's Paisley stuff was meant to be listened to on vinyl. I don't own any Prince music from the 80's on CD, it all sounds bad. Prince could have went into any studio but he wanted that raw sound. The mics on Little Red Corvette and If I Was Your Girlfriend are distorted on purpose. The latter being a recording mistake that he happened to like.

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Reply #27 posted 03/30/15 5:25am

BartVanHemelen

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SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

All of the 80's Paisley stuff was meant to be listened to on vinyl.

.

Why not cassette? Or 8-track? 45 rpm vinyl or 33rpm? Etc. Or to be clear: nonsense.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #28 posted 03/30/15 9:52am

scratch

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

All of the 80's Paisley stuff was meant to be listened to on vinyl.

.

Why not cassette? Or 8-track? 45 rpm vinyl or 33rpm? Etc. Or to be clear: nonsense.

because of the unique mastering required for vinyl-- come on, you know this. i usually agree with you on this, but this Paisley stuff was much more engineered (or at least more well engineered) for vinyl. they're right when they say it was meant to be listened to on vinyl: the harmonic distortion that format provides makes prince's signature sound really pop and ties together the sometimes rushed mixes on Prince albums. even today, i only listen to high-quality vinyl rips of Prince albums on my hard drive, especially sign o' the times and purple rain.

by the way-- the high-quality vinyl rips sound amazing. seek them out. almost defeats the purpose of remasters for me, although i would like them just in case there's any bonus content P throws in or they really have been delicately (read: not loudly) restored from the original tapes.

[Edited 3/30/15 9:59am]

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Reply #29 posted 03/30/15 10:28am

paisleypark4

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SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

All of the 80's Paisley stuff was meant to be listened to on vinyl. I don't own any Prince music from the 80's on CD, it all sounds bad. Prince could have went into any studio but he wanted that raw sound. The mics on Little Red Corvette and If I Was Your Girlfriend are distorted on purpose. The latter being a recording mistake that he happened to like.





I started rebuying the albums pre Grafitti Bridge on vinyl because the sound is indeed much better.

As well, they have remastered a couple albums already and are avail on download as well.

Do some research
Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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