herb4 said:

Mainstream is when it makes it's way into advertising, commercials and when white people start copying it. That was well under way by the mid 80's at least. Like I posted, "CHEERS", one of the whitest shows ever made, did a rapping joke in 1984. I think we're confusing "mainstream" with "dominant".

I'm talking about mainstream music... which is unquestionably the charts. In the UK it represents what songs people were buying. In the US it represents the songs commercial mainstream radio is playing.

Where were the hit songs? We always come back to the same

Even by the mid/late 90s - I don't think 3/4 #1 hit rap songs a year is dominance. It just became as common place as rock, rnb, pop/dance in the charts. It was Eminem who kicked off the dominance of Rap. Rap was common on the charts before Eminem came along though.

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

Adam Ant? but not DMSR? ...Really? It's funk-rap right? Is it just because he doesn't use the word rap in the title?

Convoy by CW McCall & Uneasy Rider by Charlie Daniels Band is more rap than DMSR. So is The Day Basketball Was Saved by the Jackson 5

I wouldn't disagree with that, but the lyrics are somewhat rapped. As much as "Westend Girls"

Prince has a female rapper on the biggest single from his '88 album. But it's 1991/1992 where people generaly say Prince was chasing rap... Despite having incorporated visual elements as far back as SOTT.

Prince's 1991/1992 albums are the "chasing rap" albums although neither is a rap album. If he was chasing rap he certainly wasn't going "all in". The album with the most Rap is his self described "Rock Opera".

Noodled24 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Convoy by CW McCall & Uneasy Rider by Charlie Daniels Band is more rap than DMSR. So is The Day Basketball Was Saved by the Jackson 5

I wouldn't disagree with that, but the lyrics are somewhat rapped. As much as "Westend Girls"

Prince has a female rapper on the biggest single from his '88 album. But it's 1991/1992 where people generaly say Prince was chasing rap... Despite having incorporated visual elements as far back as SOTT.

Prince's 1991/1992 albums are the "chasing rap" albums although neither is a rap album. If he was chasing rap he certainly wasn't going "all in". The album with the most Rap is his self described "Rock Opera".

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

Have to disagree here. MTV was one of the few outlets for lesser known alternative bands, epspecially in thier early years and, later on, in the wee hours of the morning. 120 Minutes and Liquid television turned me on to a LOT of stuff I'd never heard anywhere else. They provided a LOT of strange, lesser known content, from rap, to the shows I mentioned and even stuff like "The Young Ones". They broke Beavis and Butthead too.

.

MTV exposed me to stuff like Love and Rockets, Bauhaus, The Cure, Fishbone, The Red Hot Chille Peppers, The Waterboys, The Cocteau Twins, Skinny Puppy, Scritti Pollitti, Living Color, The Cult, GWAR, Bad Brains, The Damned and, yes, a lot of rap as well. At one point, MTV was very well known as a place for new artists to be seen and heard. In fact, it was one of the ONLY places beyond college radio providing that outlet.

.

Why'd you post that thing threee times anyway?

[Edited 3/16/15 12:44pm]

herb4 said:

Aerogram said:

Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

Have to disagree here. MTV was one of the few outlets for lesser known alternative bands, epspecially in thier early years and, later on, in the wee hours of the morning. 120 Minutes and Liquid television turned me on to a LOT of stuff I'd never heard anywhere else. They provided a LOT of strange, lesser known content, from rap, to the shows I mentioned and even stuff like "The Young Ones". They broke Beavis and Butthead too.

.

MTV exposed me to stuff like Love and Rockets, Bauhaus, The Cure, Fishbone, The Red Hot Chille Peppers, The Waterboys, The Cocteau Twins, Skinny Puppy, Scritti Pollitti, Living Color, The Cult, GWAR, Bad Brains, The Damned and, yes, a lot of rap as well. At one point, MTV was very well known as a place for new artists to be seen and heard. In fact, it was one of the ONLY places beyond college radio providing that outlet.

.

Why'd you post that thing threee times anyway?

[Edited 3/16/15 12:44pm]

You're right, those channels also did expose me to some varied music, Love and Rockets was one of my faves. Still they also showed what was on the charts quite a bit, so it's no historical accident that rap show was one of their most popular.

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

What do you mean? You have no say in the definition of mainstream. It is already defined not only for you, but for everyone. "Your" definition of mainstream doesn't matter.

Right - and when talking about music. "Mainstream" is the charts.

The opposite of mainstream is subculture. Even Rappers' Delight was a foray into the mainstream -- it was heard by millions of people with zero connection to the original subculture of rap.

Because if something isn't mainstream it must be the opposite of?

Each big rap song was one more step into the mainstream. From 1980 to 1985, there were quite a few, but when Walk This Way came along, that was literaly done straight into the big living room of mainstream for all to hear. At the time, you would have needed to be completely disconnected not to know that rap had arrived and was then fully accepted as another element of American music. What do you think Aerosmith's message was? Are they known for their exploration of obscure, little known genres?

Right... and Run DMC's follow-up single? People were so into rap they went onto huge success right? But it was 1998 before they had another hit song? (with Jason Nevins)

In the second part of the eighties, rap was not only mainstream, it was being marketed like a new offering from MacDonald or Burger King, it had a look, a language, a music, an ever present "brand". Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

But no #1 single? and only a handful of top 10 singles in that decade. So every element of rap was selling... except the music?

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

No... but that's been my point from the start hasn't it?

Dear lord, you are stubborn. You ridiculously said:

My stance is that it wasn't very mainstream. You could find it if you looked. The names who really helped take Rap mainstream had yet to come. Dr Dre, 2Pac, Snoop, BIG, Puffy, Jay-Z, Nas, were just beginning their careers in these years. Thats not to say there weren't rappers before them, there obviously were. But they weren't making huge production videos or tours like rappers today. There had been a handful of top 10 singles (mainstream charts).

The part is bold is particularly ignorant. The notion you had to "look for it" is simply gut-bustingly laughable not to mention the fact that according to you, Run DMC, Public Enemy, LL Cool J, Tone Loc, Hammer.... are not "the names that really helped take Rap mainstream". Tone Loc and Hammer, in particular, were as mainstream as a Big Mac, you wanted to destroy that TV with a shutgun rather than to hear Can't Touch This one more time (at least I did).

"look for it" - also noted I was looking at the charts. Because there were a handful of hit rap songs in the 80s... chart music is what mainstream radio plays.

Your whole problem is that you have a very poor grasp of the word "mainstream". It does not refer at all to the point where a genre is dominant internationally. The second something stops being contained in a subculture, it starts being part of the mainstream -- a little bit, like Rappers' Delight made millions of white teenagers aware there was this thing called rap, a lot when a rock band like Aerosmith decides rap is known enoughi to make an hit single with Run DMC, a great deal when radio stations simply won't stop playing "Wild Thing" or "Can't Touch This", and you can't go anywhere without riskng hearing those songs.

Wrong again

It wasn't "normal" to see rap in the charts in the 80s. Not compared to other more common genres. There wasn't even a #1 rap single in the 80s. We both know mainstream radio wasn't playing Public Enemy. "Most people" weren't buying rap singles. Thats why we don't have a #1 rap song and only a handful of songs from the few artists you mentioned.

I can name 10 #1 Rock/Pop/Soul/RnB songs from the 80s because they were the mainstream genres.

It is historically dumb to say Dr. Dre "helped make rap mainstream", he helped make it the dominant genre on the planet when it was already extremely common in the mainstream. Jay Z didn't take any risks, he was a practitioner of an already very well- established genre and helped make it dominant, not "mainstream".

Jay-Z didn't make Rap dominant check the figures instead of assuming you know it all. Jay-Z never sold anything like 30 Million copies of an album. Eminem has had more #1 singles than any rapper EVER, more than many pop stars even.

Words matters -- use them wisely and you'll be taken seriously. Don't and you'll get a backlash over your poor grasp of vocabulary.

I was tempted to post the dictionary definition of "mainstream" here.

Noodled24 said:

Right... and Run DMC's follow-up single? People were so into rap they went onto huge success right? But it was 1998 before they had another hit song? (with Jason Nevins)

You're still dissing DMC? Seriously?

3 Billboard Top Ten albums
Over 15 million albums sold in the US alone

• A No. 1 R&B charting rap album
• The second rap act to appear on American Bandstand (the Sugar Hill Gang appeared first on the program in 1981)
• The first rap act to chart in the Top 40 of the Billboard Hot 100 more than once
• The first rap artist with a Top 10 pop charting rap album
• One of the first rap artists with gold, platinum, and multi-platinum albums
• The first rap act to appear on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine
• One of the first rap acts to receive a Grammy Award nomination
• The first rap act to make a video appearance on MTV
• The first rap act to perform at a major arena
• Signed to a major product endorsement deal (Adidas)
• The second rap act to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (and they did it on the first ballot)
  
  
  And if you need to hear it from a rapper that you idolize, watch this:
  
  

"Something is only mainstream if it dominates the Billboard charts" - A point that NOODLE24 seems to really want to make.

.

"Mainstream" and "Dominance" are two different things. As others have pointed out, rap was being used in ads, spoofed, paorodied and also sold. Heavy Metal was mainstream back in the mid 80's too but wasn't "Dominant".

.

You're confusing "mainstream" with "dominance". I think that's what people are arguing with you about (the semantics of it) and, even by that standard, your argument doesn't really hold up since rap (In the years that you say it was "dominant" and hence "mainstream") routinely gave way and ceded ground on the charts to pop acts like Britney Spears, Christine Aguilera, Coldplay, Nickleback, Jewel...Santana...even Madonna, R.E.M, U2 and Radiohead. Not to mention several country and boy band acts that I don't listen to and can't be bothered to remember. During your so-called "dominant, golden age of rap and hip hop" where it became "mainstream and dominant", you had Garth Brooks, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, Tim McGraw, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackosn, Whitney Houston...fucking Cher...Justin Timberlake and all sorts of shit mixed in there for chart dominance and Grammy Awards along with the rap and hip hop acts you cited.

.

Here:

The following artists achieved four or more number-one hits during the 1990s.

.

Look at all of those dominant, mainstream rap acts.

.

Here's a list of the top selling ALBUMS of the 1990's in the United States. It's no different than the 80's Find ONE rap act on it. You'll have to scroll down by decade.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ates#1990s

.

Now in the 2000's is where you may start to have a point. I see Eminiem, 50 Cent, Lil Wayne and Usher in the top ten.

Noodled24 said:

herb4 said:

Mainstream is when it makes it's way into advertising, commercials and when white people start copying it. That was well under way by the mid 80's at least. Like I posted, "CHEERS", one of the whitest shows ever made, did a rapping joke in 1984. I think we're confusing "mainstream" with "dominant".

I'm talking about mainstream music... which is unquestionably the charts. In the UK it represents what songs people were buying. In the US it represents the songs commercial mainstream radio is playing.

Where were the hit songs? We always come back to the same

Even by the mid/late 90s - I don't think 3/4 #1 hit rap songs a year is dominance. It just became as common place as rock, rnb, pop/dance in the charts. It was Eminem who kicked off the dominance of Rap. Rap was common on the charts before Eminem came along though.

Well me and my school mates were going to see Run DMC in London in 1987. We were white, middle class 16 year olds from the English Shires. How more mainstream could it have become?? And we called it hip hop (thank you Sugarhill).

Prince always dabbled (forget Cat in 88, try Sheila in 87, P on Girls & Boys in 86) but didn't bring ANY influence. UK rap radio shows (Mike Allen Hip Hop Show 84-87) would even pull out the like of DMSR on occasion. But you know it was mainstream when Tears For Fears SHOUT was getting a dub remix and play on hip hop shows (1985).

Even Kylie had rappers on her singles in the late 80's.

Saying Hip Hop went mainstream in the 90's is like saying rock didn't really land until Nirvana.

herb4 said:

"Something is only mainstream if it dominates the Billboard charts" - A point that NOODLE24 seems to really want to make.

.

"Mainstream" and "Dominance" are two different things. As others have pointed out, rap was being used in ads, spoofed, paorodied and also sold. Heavy Metal was mainstream back in the mid 80's too but wasn't "Dominant".

.

You're confusing "mainstream" with "dominance". I think that's what people are arguing with you about (the semantics of it) and, even by that standard, your argument doesn't really hold up since rap (In the years that you say it was "dominant" and hence "mainstream") routinely gave way and ceded ground on the charts to pop acts like Britney Spears, Christine Aguilera, Coldplay, Nickleback, Jewel...Santana...even Madonna, R.E.M, U2 and Radiohead. Not to mention several country and boy band acts that I don't listen to and can't be bothered to remember. During your so-called "dominant, golden age of rap and hip hop" where it became "mainstream and dominant", you had Garth Brooks, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, Tim McGraw, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackosn, Whitney Houston...fucking Cher...Justin Timberlake and all sorts of shit mixed in there for chart dominance and Grammy Awards along with the rap and hip hop acts you cited.

.

Here:

The following artists achieved four or more number-one hits during the 1990s.

Janet Jackson	6
Boyz II Men	5
Celine Dion	4
Whitney Houston	4
Madonna	4
TLC	4

.

Look at all of those dominant, mainstream rap acts.

.

Here's a list of the top selling ALBUMS of the 1990's in the United States. It's no different than the 80's Find ONE rap act on it. You'll have to scroll down by decade.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ates#1990s

.

Now in the 2000's is where you may start to have a point. I see Eminiem, 50 Cent, Lil Wayne and Usher in the top ten.

Just so I'm clear, as I don't always get what you're stance is on subjects, are you saying rap didn't have much of a presence on the charts until the 2000's? Or that rap didn't have a majority of each year's top albums until the 2000's?

If so, I'm having a hard time finding any year in the 2000's where the majority of the Billboard 200 Top 10 or Top 20 was by rappers. Take 2005 for instance, since it's in the middle of the decade:

Mariah Carey
Green Day

Kelly Clarkson
Gwen Stefani
Destiny's Child
U2

Shania Twain
Rascal Flatts

That's 8 of the Top 10 at 2005 yearend that WEREN'T rappers. And BTW, Usher is R&B only ... not Rap, not Hip Hop.

Name any other year in the 2000's and I'll gladly recap the Billboard 200 yearend Top 10 by genre.

Pokeno4Money said:

herb4 said:

"Mainstream" and "Dominance" are two different things.

Just so I'm clear, as I don't always get what you're stance is on subjects, are you saying rap didn't have much of a presence on the charts until the 2000's? Or that rap didn't have a majority of each year's top albums until the 2000's?

.

If so, I'm having a hard time finding any year in the 2000's where the majority of the Billboard 200 Top 10 or Top 20 was by rappers.

I'm saying that "mainstream" and "dominance" are two different things and that Noodle24 seems to have a hard time understanding or acknowledging this fact. I think I've been quite clear about what I mean. He's saing "mainstream" equals "Billboard Chart Dominance" and I'm syaing it's not but that by the 2000's, rap really started to "dominate" the charts in a way that I think Noodle24 suggests is truly "mainstream". Rap and Hip Hop have never really been the majority. The question is "when did it become "mainstream?" and we seem to be arguing about that.

.

I think it was mainstream well before that (by the mid 1980's) and that it wasn't even "dominant" in the 90's, as Noodle24 also seems to imply.

.

Was that clear? I can elaborate some more.

If you look out there for the definition of mainstream music, you get "music that's usually on the radio, Top 40 and is well known to the general public. "

and "music that is familiar to the masses, "

If the only thing in the mainstream were one or two dominant genres, then we would not need cultural studies, basically everything but two or three things would be out of the "mainstream", and therefore would be "underground", "alternative", "local", "ethnic", "subcultural".

herb4 said:

Pokeno4Money said:

Just so I'm clear, as I don't always get what you're stance is on subjects, are you saying rap didn't have much of a presence on the charts until the 2000's? Or that rap didn't have a majority of each year's top albums until the 2000's?

.

If so, I'm having a hard time finding any year in the 2000's where the majority of the Billboard 200 Top 10 or Top 20 was by rappers.

I'm saying that "mainstream" and "dominance" are two different things and that Noodle24 seems to have a hard time understanding or acknowledging this fact. I think I've been quite clear about what I mean. He's saing "mainstream" equals "Billboard Chart Dominance" and I'm syaing it's not but that by the 2000's, rap really started to "dominate" the charts in a way that I think Noodle24 suggests is truly "mainstream". Rap and Hip Hop have never really been the majority. The question is "when did it become "mainstream?" and we seem to be arguing about that.

.

I think it was mainstream well before that (by the mid 1980's) and that it wasn't even "dominant" in the 90's, as Noodle24 also seems to imply.

.

Was that clear? I can elaborate some more.

Yes, you and I agree. Seems like he's still harping on #1 songs on the Hot 100 as his definition of mainstream.

About Prince's influence on hip-hop...

... didn't Prince influence hiphop at least in the sense that his drum machine programming was imitated by many in the 80s? The rhythmic stuff on Old-school hip hop and on "1999" and The Time records wasn't worlds apart. The whole 80s funk sound that Prince was one of the most important names of, probably the most important, sure could be heard on early hiphop records too.

Pokeno4Money said:

Noodled24 said:

You're still dissing DMC? Seriously?

3 Billboard Top Ten albums
Over 15 million albums sold in the US alone

Not dissing them at all. They're awesome (and I read the same wiki when I looked up their singles discography) - I was shocked. Their albums sold... but until 1998 they'd only had one had one US top 10 single. Thats weird isn't it?

Honestly, when you look back at the charts in the late 80s and early 90s it's surprising how little rap was in the charts. In the 80s there were a handful of top 10 rap songs. Things picked up in the early 90s, but then by 1995/1996 there are suddenly 3/4 #1 rap songs each year. Where rap/hip-hop occupies a position next to any mainstream genre (on the charts)

herb4 said:

"Something is only mainstream if it dominates the Billboard charts" - A point that NOODLE24 seems to really want to make.

.

"Mainstream" and "Dominance" are two different things. As others have pointed out, rap was being used in ads, spoofed, paorodied and also sold. Heavy Metal was mainstream back in the mid 80's too but wasn't "Dominant".

There was a mainstream awareness of rap. If you said to someone "Do you like Rap music" they wouldn't reply "What's rap"...

As I've said all along there was a vibrant rap scene. But the pop charts didn't reflect it at the time. Despite what people seem to think, Rap/Hip-hop didn't dominate the pop charts in the 90s, by the late 90s it was as common as the other mainstream genres. Thats not dominating.

You're confusing "mainstream" with "dominance". I think that's what people are arguing with you about (the semantics of it) and, even by that standard, your argument doesn't really hold up since rap (In the years that you say it was "dominant" and hence "mainstream") routinely gave way and ceded ground on the charts to pop acts like Britney Spears, Christine Aguilera, Coldplay, Nickleback, Jewel...Santana...even Madonna, R.E.M, U2 and Radiohead. Not to mention several country and boy band acts that I don't listen to and can't be bothered to remember. During your so-called "dominant, golden age of rap and hip hop" where it became "mainstream and dominant", you had Garth Brooks, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, Tim McGraw, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackosn, Whitney Houston...fucking Cher...Justin Timberlake and all sorts of shit mixed in there for chart dominance and Grammy Awards along with the rap and hip hop acts you cited.

Of course. I didn't say RnB or Pop suddenly gave way to Rap.

People are talking about "mainstream" awareness of Rap. Thats fine. But as I've said all along, I'm looking at the charts and what story they tell. There is a clear and massive spike in the mid/late 90s. Those other genres didn't go away. Rap sat beside them equally represented on the charts.

Here:

The following artists achieved four or more number-one hits during the 1990s.

Janet Jackson	6
Boyz II Men	5
Celine Dion	4
Whitney Houston	4
Madonna	4
TLC	4

.

Look at all of those dominant, mainstream rap acts.

Right but you've picked an arbitrary 4 #1 singles... There were unquestionably more #1 rap singles in the late 90s... not all by the same artist though.

Here's a list of the top selling ALBUMS of the 1990's in the United States. It's no different than the 80's Find ONE rap act on it. You'll have to scroll down by decade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ates#1990s

But again you're looking at only one album each year. The ONE best selling album. There were 6 #1 Rap albums in the year 1996. Two of them by the same rapper.

Jagged Little Pill was the best selling album of that year but it was knocked off the #1 spot for two weeks by "All Eyez On Me".

Now in the 2000's is where you may start to have a point. I see Eminiem, 50 Cent, Lil Wayne and Usher in the top ten.

There is no doubt Eminem had a huge impact on hip-hop. Didn't Prince have his own Eminem clone for about a week?

Noodled24 said:

Pokeno4Money said:

You're still dissing DMC? Seriously?

3 Billboard Top Ten albums
Over 15 million albums sold in the US alone

Not dissing them at all. They're awesome (and I read the same wiki when I looked up their singles discography) - I was shocked. Their albums sold... but until 1998 they'd only had one had one US top 10 single. Thats weird isn't it?

Honestly, when you look back at the charts in the late 80s and early 90s it's surprising how little rap was in the charts. In the 80s there were a handful of top 10 rap songs. Things picked up in the early 90s, but then by 1995/1996 there are suddenly 3/4 #1 rap songs each year. Where rap/hip-hop occupies a position next to any mainstream genre (on the charts)

It's not surpising or shocking at all.

.

A quick glance at the top 20 of the top 100 selling albums of the 70's nets exactly TWO black artists. MJ's "Off the Wall" and Stevie's "Songs in the Key of Life". From there, it took me to reach #78 before I found another black artist/band, Earth Wind and Fire.

.

Here:

http://www.superseventies...lbums.html

So...would you argue that Stevie Wonder, Micheal Jackson and Earth Wind and Fire weren't "mainstream" in the 70's based simply on this chart position/Top 100 research I did? The definition of "mainstream" that you seem to find so relevant?

Noodled24 said:

Pokeno4Money said:

You're still dissing DMC? Seriously?

3 Billboard Top Ten albums
Over 15 million albums sold in the US alone

Not dissing them at all. They're awesome (and I read the same wiki when I looked up their singles discography) - I was shocked. Their albums sold... but until 1998 they'd only had one had one US top 10 single. Thats weird isn't it?

Honestly, when you look back at the charts in the late 80s and early 90s it's surprising how little rap was in the charts. In the 80s there were a handful of top 10 rap songs. Things picked up in the early 90s, but then by 1995/1996 there are suddenly 3/4 #1 rap songs each year. Where rap/hip-hop occupies a position next to any mainstream genre (on the charts)

There actually isnt really any particular genre that lights up the charts at any given point in time. The majority of pop charts are made up of pop music. Pop music is a generic name for pretty much anything. In the 80s it was MJ, Prince, Madonna, Wham etc. In the 90s it was the Spice Girls, Take That, Whitney Houston, Oasis etc. In the 00's we have the likes of One Direction, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Beyonce etc. Essentially, the people that put artists at the top of the charts are the kids. And amongst all that pop nonsence occasionally another genre breaks through, becomes bastardised and turned into pop and become dominant for a while.

You are arguing that to be mainstream a specific genre has to be dominating the charts. Specifically the top 10. But by your definition, genres such as rock are very rarely mainstream. Maybe once in a while guitar driven music will dominate the charts for a short period of time, but by and large, generic pop music is what stays there throughout. So if rock music over the decades hasnt dominated the top 10 too often, by your definition, it is still relatively underground. I would argue that rock music has been mainstream going back to the 60s. It never went underground, even if at times it didnt really dominate the top 10 very often.

the same can be said of hip hop/rap. Despite it not charting the top 10 very often in the 80s it had become mainstream. It came from being underground and was in the mainstream consciousness. When it did dominate the top 10, it did so for a while, but it hasnt remained dominant in the charts. The dominance, as it always has been, is the generic pop music many of us middle aged folk dont pay much attention to anymore. And every now and then, a specific genre pops up and dominates for a season or two. Hip hop has had periods of domination, rock has had periods of domination, EDM has periods of domination. But what always rises to the top more than anything else is generic pop.

What tends to happen is a genre becomes mainstream and then the suits at record companies get their hands on it and commercialise it. We then get boy/girl bands and other talentless people bringing that basterdised genre into their repetoir. It then becomes pop music and dominates. This has always happened. For every great artist/band that has succeeded in the charts there are countless talentless, manufactured one hit, one album wonders. The charts show, more than anything, how many train wrecks have come and gone. The ones that stand out and endure are few and far between, irrelevant of genre. Every genre gets its chance to be poppified and made dominant. Whatever record execs think the flavour of the month is, is what gets pushed to the top. Rock has had many incarnations at the top, hip hop has had its fair share of poppification, EDM too. Even big band, jazz, punk, disco and more have had their fair share of popification and consequent dominance for a period of time.

Mainstream is not the same as dominance. House music emerged in the 80s and by the end of the decade had become mainstream. It was played in clubs all over the world. That generation of kids (i include myself in that) bought into and loved it. But it didnt break out and start dominating the charts until the mid to late 90s. And what did dominate the charts was actually basterdised commercial versions of the genre. Didnt mean House music proper wasnt mainstream, it just meant that the juggernaut that is pop music took elements from it and kept house music, the real stuff, out of the charts.

So, I argue that rap/hip hop was indeed mainstream in the 80s it just hadnt yet had the suits get their hands on it and bastardise it commercially.

Most underground genres became mainstream when they started adding melodic choruses to them.

How's that for an attempt to put it in a nutshell?

KingSausage said:

Yeah, but has Prince ever written a rap song as meaningful as Imagine or What's Going On?

Youve heard Jughead, right?

Rebeljuice said:

Ahh nevermind, just realized I was referencing a UK list.

[Edited 3/19/15 7:19am]

KingSausage said:

Rebeljuice said:

Youve heard Jughead, right?

Is that how I got stupid?

KingSausage said:

Yeah, but has Prince ever written a rap song as meaningful as Imagine or What's Going On?

LOL... we're trying to let this thread die man!

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

Aerogram said:

No major influence other than being sampled (like JB, Sly and others) and somewhat reflecting the rise of rap lightly (spoken parts or near spoken parts in his music) to add a few drops to the large cultural bucket (bathtub? pool?) that gradually got audiences to enjoy records on which people didn't just sing (along with many other artists).

If there is a significant "Prince effect" in hip hop, it's in reaction and more cultural than musical. Some have interpreted the rise of hyper masculine "gangsta rap" as a delayed reaction to the fact that 80s black superstars were definitely on the feminine side. According to this interpretation, white audiences long liked their black male artists "trained" to have a contained, non threatening image in the 60s and 70s (lots of Motown acts for instance though not all), then when there was some serious global crossover action, black male sexuality was expressed by slighter-built/lighter skinned types like MJ and Prince, paving the way for (or provoking, according to some) the rawer, blacker, manlier types that would have been too threatening to mainstream America earlier.

Btw, are there any particularly high-profile examples of Prince getting sampled in Hip-Hop music? The only one that comes to my mind is Arrested Development's Tennessee, but that's a very small vocal section of the song, certainly nothing like the wholesale mining of breaks from James Brown's catalogue.

2Pac sampled a few Prince songs, like Gigolos Get Lonely Too and a few others.

Then there was a mid 80s rap song by Grandmaster Melle Mel and Van Silk called What´s The Matter With Your World, a forgotten song that wasn´t really bad and it was on one of the Police Academy soundtracks.

It sampled Prince´s "Oh yeah!" vocal from Sign of the Times and they sung the line "What´s the matter with your world..." from Pop Life.

I´m sure there were tons of other songs that used Prince´s songs without clearing samples but I don´t remember them off the top of my head right now.

Rebeljuice said:

Noodled24 said:

Not dissing them at all. They're awesome (and I read the same wiki when I looked up their singles discography) - I was shocked. Their albums sold... but until 1998 they'd only had one had one US top 10 single. Thats weird isn't it?

Honestly, when you look back at the charts in the late 80s and early 90s it's surprising how little rap was in the charts. In the 80s there were a handful of top 10 rap songs. Things picked up in the early 90s, but then by 1995/1996 there are suddenly 3/4 #1 rap songs each year. Where rap/hip-hop occupies a position next to any mainstream genre (on the charts)

There actually isnt really any particular genre that lights up the charts at any given point in time. The majority of pop charts are made up of pop music. Pop music is a generic name for pretty much anything. In the 80s it was MJ, Prince, Madonna, Wham etc. In the 90s it was the Spice Girls, Take That, Whitney Houston, Oasis etc. In the 00's we have the likes of One Direction, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Beyonce etc. Essentially, the people that put artists at the top of the charts are the kids. And amongst all that pop nonsence occasionally another genre breaks through, becomes bastardised and turned into pop and become dominant for a while.

I get what you're saying about Pop, but then Houston is RnB, Oasis Rock, Madonna has always been quick to bring new trends in dance music to the mainstream. It was 2000-something before she hooked up with missy elliot.

You are arguing that to be mainstream a specific genre has to be dominating the charts. Specifically the top 10. But by your definition, genres such as rock are very rarely mainstream. Maybe once in a while guitar driven music will dominate the charts for a short period of time, but by and large, generic pop music is what stays there throughout. So if rock music over the decades hasnt dominated the top 10 too often, by your definition, it is still relatively underground. I would argue that rock music has been mainstream going back to the 60s. It never went underground, even if at times it didnt really dominate the top 10 very often.

I'm not arguing it has to be dominant. I'm saying if it's not in the charts "most people" aren't buying it so it isn't really a mainstream genre at that time. While the mainstream may well be aware of it... they weren't buying much of it (evidenced from the charts).

Opera isn't mainstream... I'm not saying people don't go to the theatre, because they do. But it's not a mainstream genre because it's so rarely in the top ten that clearly "most people" aren't buying it.

Rock has always featured in the charts in various forms, Dance music - as it evolves and #trends is common in the charts, RnB is common in the charts

the same can be said of hip hop/rap. Despite it not charting the top 10 very often in the 80s it had become mainstream. It came from being underground and was in the mainstream consciousness. When it did dominate the top 10, it did so for a while, but it hasnt remained dominant in the charts. The dominance, as it always has been, is the generic pop music many of us middle aged folk dont pay much attention to anymore. And every now and then, a specific genre pops up and dominates for a season or two. Hip hop has had periods of domination, rock has had periods of domination, EDM has periods of domination. But what always rises to the top more than anything else is generic pop.

I'm not sure what to say to that... Other than perhaps you don't really follow the charts? Or you're being quite harsh? Hozier has just had a huge international hit, Ed Sheeran has been everywhere, Oasis are both continuing with their own solo projects, Jack White... you might not consider them more than generic pop but they're musicians and all fall into the Rock genre.

There is plenty of EDM and bubblegum pop but equally plenty of bands chart.

What tends to happen is a genre becomes mainstream and then the suits at record companies get their hands on it and commercialise it. We then get boy/girl bands and other talentless people bringing that basterdised genre into their repetoir. It then becomes pop music and dominates. This has always happened. For every great artist/band that has succeeded in the charts there are countless talentless, manufactured one hit, one album wonders. The charts show, more than anything, how many train wrecks have come and gone. The ones that stand out and endure are few and far between, irrelevant of genre. Every genre gets its chance to be poppified and made dominant. Whatever record execs think the flavour of the month is, is what gets pushed to the top. Rock has had many incarnations at the top, hip hop has had its fair share of poppification, EDM too. Even big band, jazz, punk, disco and more have had their fair share of popification and consequent dominance for a period of time.

Absolutely we see trends in music.

Mainstream is not the same as dominance. House music emerged in the 80s and by the end of the decade had become mainstream. It was played in clubs all over the world. That generation of kids (i include myself in that) bought into and loved it. But it didnt break out and start dominating the charts until the mid to late 90s. And what did dominate the charts was actually basterdised commercial versions of the genre. Didnt mean House music proper wasnt mainstream, it just meant that the juggernaut that is pop music took elements from it and kept house music, the real stuff, out of the charts.

Agreed. Madonna is famed for "her" ability to "popify" EDM trends.

So, I argue that rap/hip hop was indeed mainstream in the 80s it just hadnt yet had the suits get their hands on it and bastardise it commercially.

There was a definite mainstream awareness... But as I've said, in the 80s there were a handful of hit rap singles. So while the clubs were pumping it... the people weren't going out and buying millions of copies of the albums.

Tupac, Biggie, Puffy, Jay etc - I don't think anyone considers them bastardised (with the exception of the deceased)...

MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice, PM Dawn... Tony M? - the dude in all fairness he's featured on at least 3 UK top 10 singles. More than the Beastie Boys (at the time) - Which I say only for the sake of controversy. Pretty sure it's true though.

RE: Prince - hip-hop didn't become a crutch. He wasn't relying on it heavily at all. He seemed keen to have Tony thoughout his albums, but he wasn't on every single. Despite claims that "in the 90s Prince jumped on the hip-hop bandwagon blah blah" - he's never made a hip-hop album. Though he's definitely assimilated it in his own ways.

herb4 said:

Noodled24 said:

Not dissing them at all. They're awesome (and I read the same wiki when I looked up their singles discography) - I was shocked. Their albums sold... but until 1998 they'd only had one had one US top 10 single. Thats weird isn't it?

Honestly, when you look back at the charts in the late 80s and early 90s it's surprising how little rap was in the charts. In the 80s there were a handful of top 10 rap songs. Things picked up in the early 90s, but then by 1995/1996 there are suddenly 3/4 #1 rap songs each year. Where rap/hip-hop occupies a position next to any mainstream genre (on the charts)

It's not surpising or shocking at all.

.

A quick glance at the top 20 of the top 100 selling albums of the 70's nets exactly TWO black artists. MJ's "Off the Wall" and Stevie's "Songs in the Key of Life". From there, it took me to reach #78 before I found another black artist/band, Earth Wind and Fire.

Here:

http://www.superseventies...lbums.html

So...would you argue that Stevie Wonder, Micheal Jackson and Earth Wind and Fire weren't "mainstream" in the 70's based simply on this chart position/Top 100 research I did? The definition of "mainstream" that you seem to find so relevant?

(You've now moved from a "genre" to specific artists)

They're obviously mainstream - you have just pointed out all 3 feature in the top 100 albums of a decade. They all also have a string of hit singles behind them. So yes they're mainstream.

Rap clearly isn't a mainstream genre in the 70s because not only is it not on that list, rap singles weren't in the charts either. I'd suspect the same is true in the 80s While there was far more mainstream awareness of the rap genre - it still wasn't a huge selling genre. So while there may have been rap jokes on "Cheers" - there was no #1 rap single.

It is a bit of a stretch to say that Prince had any influence regarding the rise of rap in the mainstream charts but the Purple Rain phenomenon definitely had an effect on the style and look of some rap artists back then. This is Dr.Dre before he was all gangsta.

[Edited 3/19/15 16:23pm]