Noodled24 said:

Adam Ant? but not DMSR? ...Really? It's funk-rap right? Is it just because he doesn't use the word rap in the title?

Convoy by CW McCall & Uneasy Rider by Charlie Daniels Band is more rap than DMSR. So is The Day Basketball Was Saved by the Jackson 5

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

Well how else but the pop charts would one use to gauge what the mainstream public was listening to at any given time?

So according to you Isn't She Lovely by Stevie Wonder is not mainstream. It was never actually released as a single so didn't chart, except on the adult contemporary one. But it recieved a lot of airplay on multiple radio formats when the album originally came out and still gets played today.

Well, that's a good point, but in the US it did get a lot of airplay on mainstream radio as well as contemporary and RnB stations? Stevie had multiple acomplishments under his belt by the time he release "Keys of Life".

Which rapper was having that kind of success?

George Thorogood's Bad To The Bone was not a big Top 10 hit, but it's well known in the US. The USA is a large place with many types of people. A song could be popular in a certain area, like zydeco music in Louisiana & Texas or Miami bass in the south or with a certain ethnicity like salsa, reggaeton, tejano, or Hawaiian music. That's why there is a Latin Grammys and different country music awards. In the "heartland" stuff like Bob Seger, John Mellencamp, and country music tends to be more popular, which is generally what you'd see at a Farm Aid concert. There's southern soul (aka soul blues) & southern rock which are more popular in the south. In the 1980s, there were 2 local Top 40 stations. One played more hair metal acts than the other and the other played more dance music like Erasure & Depeche Mode and AC acts. There's singles which hit #10 that sold more than ones that made it to number #1. There was another chart magazine called Cashbox, which tends to be different from Billboard. The Jet Magazine chart is also generally different than the Billboard R&B chart.

Again good points. I'm looking at billboard because it's the "main" one. When people hold records, they're generally in reference to the "Billboard" charts?

I understand the diverse tastes across the US. If you grew up in one place your idea of "mainstream" (ie what you heard or listened to most) could be completely different to someone who grew up in another town. But again the BB charts are the most mainstream.

Why do you think it was 1991 before the US had a #1 rap song? What happened in the years between that and 1995 when there were 2 or 3 #1 rap songs - and from then on it was as common to see #1 rap songs as it was #1 rock songs. Why wasn't that happening in the 80s?

Can we agree that Prince had little or no influence on hip hop and rap, that his biggest problems with exploring with the genre were due to having really shitty rappers and the "Days of Wild" is rap and that it is awesome?

herb4 said:

Can we agree that Prince had little or no influence on hip hop and rap, that his biggest problems with exploring with the genre were due to having really shitty rappers and the "Days of Wild" is rap and that it is awesome?

Nope.

Noodled24 said:

Why do you think it was 1991 before the US had a #1 rap song? What happened in the years between that and 1995 when there were 2 or 3 #1 rap songs - and from then on it was as common to see #1 rap songs as it was #1 rock songs. Why wasn't that happening in the 80s?

Did any kind of music become instantly popular with the masses? When it was called "race music" or "blues" or "R&B" mostly black people listened to it. It was stuck in the juke joints & TOBA clubs. When it was called "hillbilly" music mostly poor rural whites listened to it. A lot of this "niche music" was on small labels like rap was in the beginning. It wasn't on the majors like Columbia & RCA who mostly put out "high class" music for well to do people who had a lot of money to spend on their products. The majors had more power & money to get their records on the radio. Whenever the majors see that something is becoming popular with a certain group of people, they buy out their contracts like RCA did with Elvis Presley who was at Sun Records and Sam Cooke who was at Keen. Or they sign a bunch of similar sounding acts like the swing jazz, crooner pop, doo wop, girl group, hair metal, & disco eras.

Noodled24 said:

So myself and a couple of other Orgers hijacked another thread with this topic, and it was suggested a new thread was created.

The story of Prince and Rap/Hiphop generally goes something like this:

Once upon a time there was a little dressed head to toe in 100% silk imported gypsy lace, and custom handmade high heel boots. He was a rude and funky man. Then came 1992 hip-hop had taken over and Prince was suddenly playing catch up.

I think thats a grossly oversimplified version of events.

When the subject of Prince and Hip-Hop arises I think most fans minds automatically default first to the song "Dead on it" where Prince "disses" hip-hop, and second to the "O( >" album because it seems to be the album where hip-hop is most prominant. However it was the "Lovesexy" album where he first called for Cat to rap. One could argue the toss about earlier songs where Prince talks rather than sings (DMSR, Shockadelica etc) but we'll leave that be for the moment.

Now, there is no question that Prince somewhat missed the point of Rap music early on. He saw it as dressing on a party song. He didn't understand the authentic nature of what kids were listening to. There was a vibrant rap scene from the late 80s onwards but it hadn't gone mainstream yet.

Part of the discussion in the previous thread was "How mainstream was Rap in 1990/91/92" when Prince was incorporating it in his own way.

My stance is that it wasn't very mainstream. You could find it if you looked. The names who really helped take Rap mainstream had yet to come. Dr Dre, 2Pac, Snoop, BIG, Puffy, Jay-Z, Nas, were just beginning their careers in these years. Thats not to say there weren't rappers before them, there obviously were. But they weren't making huge production videos or tours like rappers today. There had been a handful of top 10 singles (mainstream charts).

In 1991 Vanilla Ice became the first rapper to top the billboard charts with a #1 rap single. THAT was what mainstream Rap looked like back then. *Again, there was a vibrant and authentic rap scene in the USA at the time... but it wasn't dominating the pop charts.

Of course there were other artists who'd had some success with rap singles. But no Rap artist had blown up in the pop charts and managed to sustain a successful career. Few if any Rappers had a string of hit singles or commercially successful second album.

Once again for clarity - there is no question that in the late 80s and early 90s there was a vibrant rap scene, but it was nothing close to the way hip-hop dominated the charts by the end of the millenium. (It was 1999 when MTV gave it's first "Best Hip-Hop" award.)

I don't think Hip-Hop owes anything to Prince. But I think he did to a degree help establish hip-hop on the mainstream charts. He was still a multi-million seller, he was still banging out top 10 hits... Nobody was buying D&P or O( > thinking they were getting a rap album, both are clearly pop efforts. But back in 91/92 before hip-hop went mainstream Prince was taking it to a mainstream international audence.

By the time he'd sacked Tony.M Prince's rap had evolved. He was delivering his flow over funk rather than trying to sound hard. Prince later came up with some more clearly hiphop influenced stuff. 18&Over seems like his take on the westside sound. I've heard other people liken "Emale" from Emancipation to a "Dr Dre like beat"

With all due respect, you're absolutely wrong about rap not really going mainstream until the era of Dr Dre, 2Pac, Snoop, BIG, Puffy, Jay-Z, Nas. No matter how you define "mainstream", whether it be Billboard 200 (albums) or Billboard Hot 100 (singles) or #1 songs on the Hot 100, rap very much had a mainstream presence in the 80's and early 90's. It began in the clubs back in the mid-80's when you couldn't go to any establishment without hearing The Message or White Lines or Rapture repeatedly over the course of the evening.

Billboard 200? Hammer's album ranked #1 for 21 weeks in 1990 - no other Rap/Hip Hop album has EVER been top ranked that long. In 1986 the Beastie's License To Ill became rap's first-ever #1. LL's Bigger & Deffer reached #3 in 1987. Etc etc.

Billboard Hot 100? Tone Loc's Wild Thing ranked #2 in 1989 as rap songs dominated the Top 10 in the late 80's/early 90's and Run DMC had the groundbreaking #4 hit Walk This Way in 1986.

You think hip-hop dominated the charts by the end of the millenium? During the year 1999 it was Santana, Enrique Iglesias, Christina Aguilera, Destiny's Child, Ricky Martin, Cher, Britney Spears and Brandy that were atop the charts for a combined 31 weeks.

As for Prince, he wasn't influenced by anyone that became big in the 90's. Genres? Yes. Musicians? No.

TheGoldStandard said:

. Hammer did "Pray" with When Doves Cry, 2Pac did "2 Live & Die in LA" (Do Me Baby) and "What'z Your Phone #" (777-9311). Any others?

http://www.whosampled.com...ing-Nikki/

Noodled24 said:

PM Dawn didn't crack the US top 10 until 93.

Is that right? Hmm.. Then how did "Set Adrift On Memory Bliss" chart at #1 on the US Billboard Hot 100 in 1991? Or "I'd Die Without You" at #3 on the US Billboard Hot 100 in 1992?

Noodled24 said:

Why do you think it was 1991 before the US had a #1 rap song? What happened in the years between that and 1995 when there were 2 or 3 #1 rap songs - and from then on it was as common to see #1 rap songs as it was #1 rock songs. Why wasn't that happening in the 80s?

2 or 3? Try 6

Good Vibrations
Set Adrift
Jump
Baby Got Back
Informer
Gangsta's Paradise

I can't help but wonder if this thread is just a roundabout way to hype West Coast Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap. So many people in their 20's and 30's (not saying the OP is one of 'em) want to believe rap became popular because of NWA, Pac, Snoop etc that it's clear they haven't a clue how big an impact other 80's and early 90's rappers and Rock HOF'ers such as Run DMC, Beasties and PE had on mainstream music.

funksterr said:

herb4 said:

Can we agree that Prince had little or no influence on hip hop and rap, that his biggest problems with exploring with the genre were due to having really shitty rappers and the "Days of Wild" is rap and that it is awesome?

Nope.

Which part? That it's not rap or that it's not awesome? This important. Because that song owns.

Pokeno4Money said:

Noodled24 said:

2 or 3? Try 6

Good Vibrations
Set Adrift
Jump
Baby Got Back
Informer
Gangsta's Paradise

I can't help but wonder if this thread is just a roundabout way to hype West Coast Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap. So many people in their 20's and 30's (not saying the OP is one of 'em) want to believe rap became popular because of NWA, Pac, Snoop etc that it's clear they haven't a clue how big an impact other 80's and early 90's rappers and Rock HOF'ers such as Run DMC, Beasties and PE had on mainstream music.

It's not. Maybe shit just became "mainstream" for different folks at different times and their definitions of it vary. I couldn't walk down the street in Philadelphia in 1987 and 88 without hearing "It Takes Two" or "Rebel Without a Pause" blasting from every car speaker that drove by.

.

I assert and maintain that rap and hip hop went truly mainsteam with "Walk This Way", "Fight for Your Right (To Party)" and, yes, "Mr. T's Commandments". I'm only partially joking about the last one. It might have been as early as "Rock Box", "King of Rock", "White Lines", "Dear Evette", or "The Show". Probably more accurate to say it went mainstream when it started to be used in commercials and prime time TV shows, since that's the very definition of mainstream. That happened early to mid 80's.

.

Beyond that, I think we're just arguing semantically about what constitutes popular and mainstream. Also Prince's role in it which wasn't much.

.

Also, anyone who doesn't like "Days of Wild" can straight up hit the door.

NWA and the others you mentioned were part of it. NWA blew up in 1988. As others have pointed out, Run DMC, Beastie Boys, Ice-T, Tone Loc, Salt N Pepa, Young MC and PE where when it went "mainstream" for me, even if "mainstream" didn't mean "dominant". Shit, the Timex Social Club positively destryed with "Rumours" around 1988.

I think the way hiphop became "more accepted" in Europe was because big stars like MJ and Prince had rappers "guesting" on their songs. It took a while. Most people really didn't like the style and didn't even consider it music at first, but they could tolerate it for 20-30 seconds at the time. If they liked a "rap song" it usually had to be somewhat funny. Humour music even. The rappers appearing in "techno" might have been the first ones that the mainstream radios started playing regularly (Snap!, 2 Unlimited etc.). At one point it seemed like that shit just wouldn't go away and we had to listen to it all the time.

MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice were big stars everywhere, of course - for like a few months. I don't think they had too many grown-ups as fans though.

Hard to say for me to be honest. I was in my early teens at the time and people in that age don't usually get the most truthful overall impressions of what people of all ages were listening to at the time.

herb4 said:

I assert and maintain that rap and hip hop went truly mainsteam with "Walk This Way", "Fight for Your Right (To Party)

Exactly, mainly because rock fans were drawn into those songs and finally realized rap is a lot more than just spoken words.

Another group that was highly influential in bringing rap mainstream in the mid-80's were Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince, whose 1988 album made it to #4 on Billboard. The OP has kept harping on #1 singles, but when you've got an entire album in the Top 5 you've definitely gone mainstream.

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

Pokeno4Money said:

herb4 said:

Stuff about rap

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

I'm not sure about that. I think the PMRC stickers, the vulgarity and the taboo element of the whoe thing actually helped it go mainstream. Like I said before, rap supplanted punk as the voice of the underground, the underpriveledged and the voiceless. NWA and Ice-T specifically were hugely popular precisely of their vulgarity, willingness to speak to truth to power and and act as voices for the weak and the powerless. SAme with Public Enemy. A lot of people miunderstood the Beastie Boys and "Lisenced to Ill", faling to realize that it was meant as a parody. The Beasties even aplogized for it and felt embarrased by the album but, like Elvis, it took white guys singing black music to bring it into the mainstream.

.

Pokeno4Money said:

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

Crossover does not necessarily originate from airplay. Let us not forget that the "Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics" sticker slowly became a kids magnet, inflated sales and influenced lyrics writing.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Prince to hip-hop's mass adoption has been "Darling Nikki", quite by accident.

[Edited 3/13/15 14:59pm]

bonatoc said:

Pokeno4Money said:

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

Crossover does not necessarily originate from airplay. Let us not forget that the "Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics" sticker slowly became a kids magnet, inflated sales and influenced lyrics writing.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Prince to hip-hop's mass adoption has been "Darling Nikki", quite by accident.

[Edited 3/13/15 14:59pm]

Yep. I said as much in the post right above yours. I agree.

bonatoc said:

Pokeno4Money said:

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

Crossover does not necessarily originate from airplay. Let us not forget that the "Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics" sticker slowly became a kids magnet, inflated sales and influenced lyrics writing.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Prince to hip-hop's mass adoption has been "Darling Nikki", quite by accident.

[Edited 3/13/15 14:59pm]

Please elaborate.

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

Why do you think it was 1991 before the US had a #1 rap song? What happened in the years between that and 1995 when there were 2 or 3 #1 rap songs - and from then on it was as common to see #1 rap songs as it was #1 rock songs. Why wasn't that happening in the 80s?

Did any kind of music become instantly popular with the masses?

No... but that's been my point from the start hasn't it?

Aerogram said:

bonatoc said:

Crossover does not necessarily originate from airplay. Let us not forget that the "Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics" sticker slowly became a kids magnet, inflated sales and influenced lyrics writing.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Prince to hip-hop's mass adoption has been "Darling Nikki", quite by accident.

[Edited 3/13/15 14:59pm]

Please elaborate.

I think he means that Prince was a central figure ("Darling Nikki") in getting the PMRC to slap warning labels on albums and that, after a while it, became a badge of honor to have the parental advisory sticker. Like, you WANTED the sticker - almost HAD to have it to be taken seriously - and it actually boosted sales, street cred and made people want the product more. When people like NWA, 2 Live Crew and Ice-T (or rap and hip hop in general for that matter) began getting the vast majority of the warning labels, it created a buzz around the product.

.

In that sense, Prince did sort of contribute to the culture and influenced rap. Madonna too. They (along with some punk and metal acts) were the first ones to be "dirty" and "vulgar" to the point where it essentially became cool.

.

I can't speak for Bonatic but that's how I read his/her post. Not sure what's unclear about it.

Noodled24 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Did any kind of music become instantly popular with the masses?

No... but that's been my point from the start hasn't it?

Dear lord, you are stubborn. You ridiculously said:

My stance is that it wasn't very mainstream. You could find it if you looked. The names who really helped take Rap mainstream had yet to come. Dr Dre, 2Pac, Snoop, BIG, Puffy, Jay-Z, Nas, were just beginning their careers in these years. Thats not to say there weren't rappers before them, there obviously were. But they weren't making huge production videos or tours like rappers today. There had been a handful of top 10 singles (mainstream charts).

The part is bold is particularly ignorant. The notion you had to "look for it" is simply gut-bustingly laughable not to mention the fact that according to you, Run DMC, Public Enemy, LL Cool J, Tone Loc, Hammer.... are not "the names that really helped take Rap mainstream". Tone Loc and Hammer, in particular, were as mainstream as a Big Mac, you wanted to destroy that TV with a shutgun rather than to hear Can't Touch This one more time (at least I did).

Your whole problem is that you have a very poor grasp of the word "mainstream". It does not refer at all to the point where a genre is dominant internationally. The second something stops being contained in a subculture, it starts being part of the mainstream -- a little bit, like Rappers' Delight made millions of white teenagers aware there was this thing called rap, a lot when a rock band like Aerosmith decides rap is known enoughi to make an hit single with Run DMC, a great deal when radio stations simply won't stop playing "Wild Thing" or "Can't Touch This", and you can't go anywhere without riskng hearing those songs.

It is historically dumb to say Dr. Dre "helped make rap mainstream", he helped make it the dominant genre on the planet when it was already extremely common in the mainstream. Jay Z didn't take any risks, he was a practitioner of an already very well- established genre and helped make it dominant, not "mainstream".

Words matters -- use them wisely and you'll be taken seriously. Don't and you'll get a backlash over your poor grasp of vocabulary.

Pokeno4Money said:

With all due respect, you're absolutely wrong about rap not really going mainstream until the era of Dr Dre, 2Pac, Snoop, BIG, Puffy, Jay-Z, Nas. No matter how you define "mainstream", whether it be Billboard 200 (albums) or Billboard Hot 100 (singles) or #1 songs on the Hot 100, rap very much had a mainstream presence in the 80's and early 90's. It began in the clubs back in the mid-80's when you couldn't go to any establishment without hearing The Message or White Lines or Rapture repeatedly over the course of the evening.

But not much on the singles chart - which in the USA is based of what mainstream radio plays?

In the UK Tony M might just be the first rapper to have featured on 3 top 10 hit singles. As of 1992 not many rappers had more than 1 top 10 hit. - Possibly LL Cool J in the USA.

Billboard 200? Hammer's album ranked #1 for 21 weeks in 1990 - no other Rap/Hip Hop album has EVER been top ranked that long. In 1986 the Beastie's License To Ill became rap's first-ever #1. LL's Bigger & Deffer reached #3 in 1987. Etc etc.

But the only hit song from the beastie boys album was "Right to Party" - that was the only top 10 hit song right? Was mainstream commercial radio playing non-single album tracks from their album?

LL Cool J had a couple of top 10 singles, but his career didn't pick up again until the mid/late 90s when he had a string of hits.

Hammers album was a phenomenon. Despite the albums success, 2 hit singles? Then he was bankrupt? 2Pac wasn't shifting 10 million albums until '95. Jay-Z didn't see a spike in his album sales until 1998. Will Smith in 98.

Billboard Hot 100? Tone Loc's Wild Thing ranked #2 in 1989 as rap songs dominated the Top 10 in the late 80's/early 90's and Run DMC had the groundbreaking #4 hit Walk This Way in 1986.

You think hip-hop dominated the charts by the end of the millenium? During the year 1999 it was Santana, Enrique Iglesias, Christina Aguilera, Destiny's Child, Ricky Martin, Cher, Britney Spears and Brandy that were atop the charts for a combined 31 weeks.

In 1999 TLC also had two #1 hits "No Scrubs" & "Unpretty". Will Smith's #1 "Wild Wild West" and Jay-Z featured on a Mariah Careys #1 single. Even if we're strict and discount Mariah and TLC, there was still a '1 Rap song that year.

By 1999 there were hiphop artists who'd had a number of international top 10 singles, and there was a rich hip-hop discography.

As for Prince, he wasn't influenced by anyone that became big in the 90's. Genres? Yes. Musicians? No.

Well... thats unknowable without asking him.

Aerogram said:

1989: the Year that Rap Exploded -- that's an article from Billboard's editor, who must have known a thing or two about charts and culture. By that year, rap was part of the music scene in dozens of countries and while it didn't yet dominate the mainstream proper, it certainly was not music you had to look for. It was available in malls internationally, there were rap video shows on MTV and on other similar channels. I think Yo! MTV Raps was th station number 1 show for a while. As "black music", hip hop's dominance was understandably long in the making, from the novelty of Rappers'Delight to the first massively influential and popular tracks to huge international hits from Tone Loc and to Hammer. It reached new heights in the 90s, heights that were the top of the mainstream mountain, where hip hop stayed until maybe a few years ago.

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

Rzeplica said:

Noodled24 said:

PM Dawn didn't crack the US top 10 until 93.

Is that right? Hmm.. Then how did "Set Adrift On Memory Bliss" chart at #1 on the US Billboard Hot 100 in 1991? Or "I'd Die Without You" at #3 on the US Billboard Hot 100 in 1992?

You're right they did. Not sure why I missed that.

Mainstream is when it makes it's way into advertising, commercials and when white people start copying it. That was well under way by the mid 80's at least. Like I posted, "CHEERS", one of the whitest shows ever made, did a rapping joke in 1984. I think we're confusing "mainstream" with "dominant".

Pokeno4Money said:

herb4 said:

I assert and maintain that rap and hip hop went truly mainsteam with "Walk This Way", "Fight for Your Right (To Party)

Exactly, mainly because rock fans were drawn into those songs and finally realized rap is a lot more than just spoken words.

Yeh... then neither of those two bands had another hit song until the late 90s.

Another group that was highly influential in bringing rap mainstream in the mid-80's were Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince, whose 1988 album made it to #4 on Billboard. The OP has kept harping on #1 singles, but when you've got an entire album in the Top 5 you've definitely gone mainstream.

Certainly a part of popular culture. If you sell a million albums but can't break the top 10 singles chart... is that mainstream? In 1992 no mainstream commerical radio stations had non-single album tracks in heavy rotation. So while there was clearly an audience, there were very few hit singles.

I keep talking about #1 singles because it's a good indication of what was "mainstream" at the time.

And BTW, another reason why West Coast Gangsta wasn't responsible for taking rap mainstream: The lyrics were so vulgar that most mainstream radio stations wouldn't play it and most parents wouldn't allow their kids to listen to it.

Which likely made even more kids listen - they're some of the biggest names in rap to this day. From "California Love" to Beats Headphones.

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

1989: the Year that Rap Exploded -- that's an article from Billboard's editor, who must have known a thing or two about charts and culture. By that year, rap was part of the music scene in dozens of countries and while it didn't yet dominate the mainstream proper, it certainly was not music you had to look for. It was available in malls internationally, there were rap video shows on MTV and on other similar channels. I think Yo! MTV Raps was th station number 1 show for a while. As "black music", hip hop's dominance was understandably long in the making, from the novelty of Rappers'Delight to the first massively influential and popular tracks to huge international hits from Tone Loc and to Hammer. It reached new heights in the 90s, heights that were the top of the mainstream mountain, where hip hop stayed until maybe a few years ago.

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

What do you mean? You have no say in the definition of mainstream. It is already defined not only for you, but for everyone. "Your" definition of mainstream doesn't matter.

The opposite of mainstream is subculture. Even Rappers' Delight was a foray into the mainstream -- it was heard by millions of people with zero connection to the original subculture of rap.

Each big rap song was one more step into the mainstream. From 1980 to 1985, there were quite a few, but when Walk This Way came along, that was literaly done straight into the big living room of mainstream for all to hear. At the time, you would have needed to be completely disconnected not to know that rap had arrived and was then fully accepted as another element of American music. What do you think Aerosmith's message was? Are they known for their exploration of obscure, little known genres?

In the second part of the eighties, rap was not only mainstream, it was being marketed like a new offering from MacDonald or Burger King, it had a look, a language, a music, an ever present "brand". Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

1989: the Year that Rap Exploded -- that's an article from Billboard's editor, who must have known a thing or two about charts and culture. By that year, rap was part of the music scene in dozens of countries and while it didn't yet dominate the mainstream proper, it certainly was not music you had to look for. It was available in malls internationally, there were rap video shows on MTV and on other similar channels. I think Yo! MTV Raps was th station number 1 show for a while. As "black music", hip hop's dominance was understandably long in the making, from the novelty of Rappers'Delight to the first massively influential and popular tracks to huge international hits from Tone Loc and to Hammer. It reached new heights in the 90s, heights that were the top of the mainstream mountain, where hip hop stayed until maybe a few years ago.

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

What do you mean? You have no say in the definition of mainstream. It is already defined not only for you, but for everyone. "Your" definition of mainstream doesn't matter.

The opposite of mainstream is subculture. Even Rappers' Delight was a foray into the mainstream -- it was heard by millions of people with zero connection to the original subculture of rap.

Each big rap song was one more step into the mainstream. From 1980 to 1985, there were quite a few, but when Walk This Way came along, that was literaly done straight into the big living room of mainstream for all to hear. At the time, you would have needed to be completely disconnected not to know that rap had arrived and was then fully accepted as another element of American music. What do you think Aerosmith's message was? Are they known for their exploration of obscure, little known genres?

In the second part of the eighties, rap was not only mainstream, it was being marketed like a new offering from MacDonald or Burger King, it had a look, a language, a music, an ever present "brand". Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

1989: the Year that Rap Exploded -- that's an article from Billboard's editor, who must have known a thing or two about charts and culture. By that year, rap was part of the music scene in dozens of countries and while it didn't yet dominate the mainstream proper, it certainly was not music you had to look for. It was available in malls internationally, there were rap video shows on MTV and on other similar channels. I think Yo! MTV Raps was th station number 1 show for a while. As "black music", hip hop's dominance was understandably long in the making, from the novelty of Rappers'Delight to the first massively influential and popular tracks to huge international hits from Tone Loc and to Hammer. It reached new heights in the 90s, heights that were the top of the mainstream mountain, where hip hop stayed until maybe a few years ago.

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

What do you mean? You have no say in the definition of mainstream. It is already defined not only for you, but for everyone. "Your" definition of mainstream doesn't matter.

The opposite of mainstream is subculture. Even Rappers' Delight was a foray into the mainstream -- it was heard by millions of people with zero connection to the original subculture of rap.

Each big rap song was one more step into the mainstream. From 1980 to 1985, there were quite a few, but when Walk This Way came along, that was literaly done straight into the big living room of mainstream for all to hear. At the time, you would have needed to be completely disconnected not to know that rap had arrived and was then fully accepted as another element of American music. What do you think Aerosmith's message was? Are they known for their exploration of obscure, little known genres?

In the second part of the eighties, rap was not only mainstream, it was being marketed like a new offering from MacDonald or Burger King, it had a look, a language, a music, an ever present "brand". Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

1989: the Year that Rap Exploded -- that's an article from Billboard's editor, who must have known a thing or two about charts and culture. By that year, rap was part of the music scene in dozens of countries and while it didn't yet dominate the mainstream proper, it certainly was not music you had to look for. It was available in malls internationally, there were rap video shows on MTV and on other similar channels. I think Yo! MTV Raps was th station number 1 show for a while. As "black music", hip hop's dominance was understandably long in the making, from the novelty of Rappers'Delight to the first massively influential and popular tracks to huge international hits from Tone Loc and to Hammer. It reached new heights in the 90s, heights that were the top of the mainstream mountain, where hip hop stayed until maybe a few years ago.

Are you just arguing about my definition of "mainstream"?

What do you mean? You have no say in the definition of mainstream. It is already defined not only for you, but for everyone. "Your" definition of mainstream doesn't matter.

The opposite of mainstream is subculture. Even Rappers' Delight was a foray into the mainstream -- it was heard by millions of people with zero connection to the original subculture of rap.

Each big rap song was one more step into the mainstream. From 1980 to 1985, there were quite a few, but when Walk This Way came along, that was literaly done straight into the big living room of mainstream for all to hear. At the time, you would have needed to be completely disconnected not to know that rap had arrived and was then fully accepted as another element of American music. What do you think Aerosmith's message was? Are they known for their exploration of obscure, little known genres?

In the second part of the eighties, rap was not only mainstream, it was being marketed like a new offering from MacDonald or Burger King, it had a look, a language, a music, an ever present "brand". Yo! MTV Raps! was MTV's most popular show -- MTV was not exactly known as a network providing strange, little known content. Indeed, whatever was in heavy rotation on MTV was the very definition of mainstream.