thedance said:

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

I think he's been massively successful integrating rap in the early 90s. The songs charted, the tours were big scale, Albums among his best sellers...

There is certainly an argument that later around 1994 he was influenced by Dre/snoop/2pac on things like 18 & over which screams "westside". But initially in the early 90s Prince had mainstream commercial success with rap.

I can't get past the fact you think rap was something you had to look for. You said your angle was this:
My stance is that it wasn't very mainstream. You could find it if you looked.

Sorry, a stance has to be based on something solid. It's just not true you had to look for rap, it was absolutely mainstream. There is a big difference between being mainstream and being dominant. Lots of music has been mainstream for ages without being dominant. Don't you think it's reductive to have such a before and after outlook? Just think about the fact Parents Just Don't Understand begath The Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

But it was still largely absent from the top 10. A handful of artists having top ten hits over 5 year period doesn't scream mainstream. Just as Jazz isn't a mainstream genre.

I'm just saying, if you look at the pop charts at the time. Rap music was there but regardless of if we're looking at the top 10 or Compilation CDs of the time. Rap is in the minority, and when it is there it's often a part of a pop song.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think hip-hop owes anything to Prince. It would have blown up regardless. But before the "rap superstars" blew up on an international level - which is when I believe rap/hip-hop entered the mainstream. Prince had done his thing with rap and moved on.

Noodled24 said:

If the other artists you mentioned were mainstream then were where all the top 10 singles?

If you're going by the Top 10 pop singles in Billboard, then acts like Pink Floyd, Kenny G, Metallica, KISS, Black Sabbath, Garth Brooks, & Led Zeppelin generally didn't do that well. Maybe you should check out the album chart. Some acts are popular with singles, others with albums, and some with both. Van Halen with Sammy Hagar had more Top 40 success with singles than with David Lee Roth, but the 2 biggest selling Van Halen albums are with Roth.

This is a Billboard year end list from the December 26, 1987 issue of the biggest selling albums of 1987. 4 rap albums are on it. Beastie Boys are at #3. Remember during this time, not many rap acts released albums. Most hip hop was 12" singles. That's why it usually didn't hit the top 10, which only counted 7" 45s.

Although not hip hop per se, Oran Juice Jones was on Def Jam and his single The Rain went to #9 on the pop singles chart. The Fat Boys album Crushin' went to #8 on the Top 100 Pop albums. The Fat Boys were popular enough to get their own movie by a major studio (Warner Brothers) Disorderlies. They did colabos with The Beach Boys & Chubby Checker and had a song on a soundtrack for A Nightmare On Elmstreet 4 and appeared on Miami Vice. In 1985, there was a rap single by the Chicago Bears (Superbowl Shuffle) and an album by WWF wrestlers which had a rap song on it by Junk Yard Dog (Grab Them Cakes). In the US, you can't get more mainstream than the NFL and pro wrestling. There were even songs with rapping "Ronald Reagans" and The Rappin Duke.

.

There were the breakdancing or hip hop based movies Breakin', Breakin' 2, Wild Style, Beat Street, & Krush Groove. Run DMC performed at Live Aid and were on the cover of Rolling Stone. There were other popular genres like Latin Freestyle & New Jack Swing that were hip hop based. Rappers were on the Sun City song.

.

Here's the highest position for some other 1980s hip hop albums on the Top 200 pop album chart:

.

#4 - DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince ~ He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper (1988)

#9 - Run DMC ~ Tougher Than Leather (1988)

#1 - Tone Loc ~ Loc-ed After Dark (1989)

#29 - 2 Live Crew ~ As Nasty As They Wanna Be (1989)

#9 - Young MC ~ Stone Cold Rhymin' (1989)

#3 - L.L. Cool J ~ Bigger And Deffer (1987)

#6 - L.L. Cool J ~ Walking With A Panther (1989)

#35 - Whodini ~ Escape (1984)

#1 - Beastie Boys ~ Licensed To Ill (1986)

#14 - Beastie Boys ~ Paul's Boutique (1989)

#30 - MC Hammer ~ Let's Get It Started (1988)

#26 - Salt N' Pepa ~ Hot, Cool & Vicious (1986)

#25 - Kool Moe Dee ~ Knowledge Is King (1989)

#37 - N.W.A. ~ Straight Outta Compton (1988)

#37 - Too $hort ~ Life Is...Too Short (1989)

#22 - Eric B & Rakim ~ Follow The Leader (1988)

KingSausage said:

Fear of a Black Planet was released on March 20, 1990. It went platinum in its first week.

Yes. I haven't said there wasn't an audience. It did well on the Rap & RnB charts. Any hit singles on the mainstream charts?

Public Enemy didn't need Prince to light the way to their vision.

Agreed.

funksterr said:

Noodled24 said:

No it wasn't. For a start nobody refered to rap music as "hip-hop" it was 1999 when MTV gave it's first "best hip-hop" award. Up until then it was "best Rap"

No disrepect to you, but you are way too ignorant about the history of hip hop to have this discussion. Maybe start there first, then assess what Prince's complete lack of any meritous role in the development of the genre was.

You highlighted a point, called me ignorant then completely failed to address the point. I can do is shrug and repeat myself.

Whatever your feelings regarding soundscan, the fact remains that MTV did't start using the term "Hip-Hop" at the VMA's until 1999.

No, MTV did not coin the term. Yes it can be traced back further. But in the late 90s MTV was still relivant and mainstream.

Aerogram said:

If you check anything on the history of rap on the web, you'll almost invariably have this sequence :

Early 80s: Rap breaking into RnB charts and making appearances in pop songs.

We're talking about Rapper's Delight, The Message, Rapture, etc.

1986: Rap becomes mainstream, breaking into the Pop Top ten, starting with Walk This Way (Run DMC/Aerosmith) -- number 4 on the hot 100), then you have (just to name a few) Young MC, Fresh Prince, Tone Loc, LL Cool J, etc. all having pop chart hits. Just "Wild Thing" by Tone Loc was all over the place, it was played ad nauseum just like Parents Just Don't Understand, which I couldn't stand after hearing it over 100 times just watching those video shows over a couple of months. "It Takes Two", "Bust a Move", "Don't Believe The Hype", "Push It", "Going Back to Cali", "I'm That Kind of Guy" -- all of those were ultra familiar for anyone listening to radio or video shows at the time.

Yes... again I'm aware there were Rap and RnB charts - that alone indicates the genre was alive and kicking. But it doesn't demonstrate mainstream. When the #1 single on the Rap chart isn't in the top 10 on the mainstream chart.

As for the term hip hop, it's a terminology thing or what you'd call semantics. While the mainstream media called "rap" "rap music" for a long time, "hip hop" was referenced in the first rap song to chart, Rapper's Delight, it was another way of referring to the broad practice of having rythmic rhymes/poetry over beats. The Village Voice was the first to describe an artist (the immortal Afrika Kambata) in 1981 and the term gradually supplanted terms like "rap culture" as a way of describing the movement, so much so that today most of this is described as "hip hop history" going back to the very beginning of mceeing over beats in the mid to late 70s and early 80s.

Yes, but the term wasn't popularised "mainstream" until the late 90s.

So when award shows started handing out trophies for hip hop, they were simply catching up to the culture in addition to broadening the palette of "rap" to include new branches of the movement.

Agreed. But award shows are mainstream though right? So it must have been the late 90s when the term came into mainstream use.

Of course you can trace hip-hop back a full decade before 1990. But I'm talking purely "mainstream" pop charts, the top 10. Fear of a black planet did a million units in a week. But had very little impact in terms of singles on the POP charts.

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

If the other artists you mentioned were mainstream then were where all the top 10 singles?

If you're going by the Top 10 pop singles in Billboard, then acts like Pink Floyd, Kenny G, Metallica, KISS, Black Sabbath, Garth Brooks, & Led Zeppelin generally didn't do that well. Maybe you should check out the album chart. Some acts are popular with singles, others with albums, and some with both. Van Halen with Sammy Hagar had more Top 40 success with singles than with David Lee Roth, but the 2 biggest selling Van Halen albums are with Roth.

[I snipped the images for space]

That's a really good point. Singles just seem to be a better indication of what people were listening to. You can go to any given week and see what the 10 most listened to songs were - in terms of "mainstream"

I'm aware there was a huge audience for rap. But would you disagree that in 1991 rap songs were still infrequent in the pop charts?

This is a Billboard year end list from the December 26, 1987 issue of the biggest selling albums of 1987. 4 rap albums are on it. Beastie Boys are at #3. Remember during this time, not many rap acts released albums. Most hip hop was 12" singles. That's why it usually didn't hit the top 10, which only counted 7" 45s.

I'm sure that has something to do with it. Along with the reluctance of many stations initially to play rap music. But my arument here isn't a political one. There are multiple reasons it was difficult to get rap onto the charts, but because of those reasons - thats why I don't think rap had become a mainstream genre unto itself. Even fewer artists had international success with singles.

Here's the highest position for some other 1980s hip hop albums on the Top 200 pop album chart:

.

#4 - DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince ~ He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper (1988)

#9 - Run DMC ~ Tougher Than Leather (1988)

#1 - Tone Loc ~ Loc-ed After Dark (1989)

#29 - 2 Live Crew ~ As Nasty As They Wanna Be (1989)

#9 - Young MC ~ Stone Cold Rhymin' (1989)

#3 - L.L. Cool J ~ Bigger And Deffer (1987)

#6 - L.L. Cool J ~ Walking With A Panther (1989)

#35 - Whodini ~ Escape (1984)

#1 - Beastie Boys ~ Licensed To Ill (1986)

#14 - Beastie Boys ~ Paul's Boutique (1989)

#30 - MC Hammer ~ Let's Get It Started (1988)

#26 - Salt N' Pepa ~ Hot, Cool & Vicious (1986)

#25 - Kool Moe Dee ~ Knowledge Is King (1989)

#37 - N.W.A. ~ Straight Outta Compton (1988)

#37 - Too $hort ~ Life Is...Too Short (1989)

#22 - Eric B & Rakim ~ Follow The Leader (1988)

I still feel like you think that I think rap wasn't around back then. Thats not my angle. I own almost all those albums.

I'm saying if you go back to 1990/1991. There were infrequent hit rap singles in the pop charts, very little recognition at award shows. Few international success stories.

[Edited 3/7/15 17:04pm]

skywalker said:

thedance said:

In case "Pope" is Prince doing hiphop.

Then I hate Prince doing hiphop.... cuz that's a really bad track. Awful.

On my iTunes list to The Hits/ The B-sides, I have The Most Beautiful Girl In The World, right before Purple Rain, and not the totally lame "Pope" / hiphop track....

- What about Pussy Control? Gett Off? Race? Days of Wild

^ Ooops, those are really good Prince-tracks, I have just changed my mind then, thanks to you... to some degree, only.....(haha)...!

BUT in general, I really dislike the genre - hiphop, its like radio-polution, imo....... to name an example from the 90s:

- I prefer the original Chic & Sister Sledge-songs from the late 70s to Will Smith's re-doing of those classics.... Yeah I am old fashioned, I know...... I am over 40 and old old old..... and, I hate when hiphop & rap artists are sampling from the classics.... and what I don't like is the misogynee, the lyrical content, mostly about "style" and hate towards women... not me - the "bad attitude", is not my cup of tea at all.

I just know I love other genres of music, I love lots and lots of other music....

I am listening to music all day long - mostly from the 60-70-80s, but modern radio with r'n'b and hiphop just ain't my fave, no not at all. Most of it really is CRAP (imho).

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

If you check anything on the history of rap on the web, you'll almost invariably have this sequence :

Early 80s: Rap breaking into RnB charts and making appearances in pop songs.

We're talking about Rapper's Delight, The Message, Rapture, etc.

1986: Rap becomes mainstream, breaking into the Pop Top ten, starting with Walk This Way (Run DMC/Aerosmith) -- number 4 on the hot 100), then you have (just to name a few) Young MC, Fresh Prince, Tone Loc, LL Cool J, etc. all having pop chart hits. Just "Wild Thing" by Tone Loc was all over the place, it was played ad nauseum just like Parents Just Don't Understand, which I couldn't stand after hearing it over 100 times just watching those video shows over a couple of months. "It Takes Two", "Bust a Move", "Don't Believe The Hype", "Push It", "Going Back to Cali", "I'm That Kind of Guy" -- all of those were ultra familiar for anyone listening to radio or video shows at the time.

Yes... again I'm aware there were Rap and RnB charts - that alone indicates the genre was alive and kicking. But it doesn't demonstrate mainstream. When the #1 single on the Rap chart isn't in the top 10 on the mainstream chart.

Yes, but the term wasn't popularised "mainstream" until the late 90s.

So when award shows started handing out trophies for hip hop, they were simply catching up to the culture in addition to broadening the palette of "rap" to include new branches of the movement.

Agreed. But award shows are mainstream though right? So it must have been the late 90s when the term came into mainstream use.

Of course you can trace hip-hop back a full decade before 1990. But I'm talking purely "mainstream" pop charts, the top 10. Fear of a black planet did a million units in a week. But had very little impact in terms of singles on the POP charts.

Sorry to say it does demonstrate mainstream, unless you live on a small island in the middle of the ocean. Mainstream refers to something accepted by a wide audience, you confuse that with dominant.

Noodled24 said:

funksterr said:

No disrepect to you, but you are way too ignorant about the history of hip hop to have this discussion. Maybe start there first, then assess what Prince's complete lack of any meritous role in the development of the genre was.

You highlighted a point, called me ignorant then completely failed to address the point. I can do is shrug and repeat myself.

Whatever your feelings regarding soundscan, the fact remains that MTV did't start using the term "Hip-Hop" at the VMA's until 1999.

No, MTV did not coin the term. Yes it can be traced back further. But in the late 90s MTV was still relivant and mainstream.

You wrote "NOBODY referred to rap as hip-hop", when it was always hip hop. I don't know what to say about MTV and why it named as award one way and then another. All I know is the term "hip-hop music" was around when I was growing up and rap was an element of it, like beat-boxing, scratching, sampling, beats, etc. You made it sound like the term didn't gain general use until 1999,

I didn't address your point because you were so far off base and wrong on so many points I thought it was simpler to reduce my comments to the simplest and most direct form I could. So I just said "ignorant", which I didn't mean as name-calling. I apologise for that.

Noodled24 said:

I'm sure that has something to do with it. Along with the reluctance of many stations initially to play rap music. But my arument here isn't a political one. There are multiple reasons it was difficult to get rap onto the charts, but because of those reasons - thats why I don't think rap had become a mainstream genre unto itself. Even fewer artists had international success with singles.

Songs generally get on the hit radio stations with payola. Many rap records in the 1980s were on small independent labels, especially pre-1985 when Def Jam got with CBS Records (later Sony). Run DMC was on the indie Profile. LL Cool J & Beastie Boys were on Def Jam. The indies might not have had the funds to get widespread radio airplay. Some records became regional hits, but not the whole US. I used to hear a lot of Bobby Jimmy on a couple of local radio stations, but I don't think he was played in many other places. Early rap records were usually long songs, often around 10 minutes or more, and they weren't released on 45 which is what the regular charts were like pop, R&B, & country. Some didn't have 45 edits which is usually what pop stations play. R&B stations in the late 1970s & early 1980s did play longer songs and so did AOR and college radio. Many R&B stations avoided playing hip hop in the beginning other than a few songs. A lot of rap singles in the 1980s were only available on maxi singles and this was where the sales were. Maxi single sales were usually only counted on the dance chart, not the other ones. It has been known in some years as the disco singles chart. Rapper's Delight was so popular that it managed to get #4 R&B & #36 pop as a maxi single. There was an edited 45 version though for jukeboxes that had a red label instead of the usual light blue Sugarhill label.

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

Agreed. But award shows are mainstream though right? So it must have been the late 90s when the term came into mainstream use.

Of course you can trace hip-hop back a full decade before 1990. But I'm talking purely "mainstream" pop charts, the top 10. Fear of a black planet did a million units in a week. But had very little impact in terms of singles on the POP charts.

Sorry to say it does demonstrate mainstream, unless you live on a small island in the middle of the ocean. Mainstream refers to something accepted by a wide audience, you confuse that with dominant.

No, I've used the term mainstream in reference to the charts. You must have read my first post. Although you make a good point that rap was big in the USA, it took much longer for the genre to go international, where we saw more than one hit wonders. Over a 5 year period people are naming the same 4/5/6 songs that broke the mainstream charts.

There are plenty of genres that are widely accepted and listened to... but you don't see them on the mainstream charts. You're confusing something "existing" with it being "mainstream". 14 year old white girls weren't running out to buy rap singles in 1990 hence the infrequancy with which we saw rap in the top 10 back then. A few years later 14 year old white girls had posters of 2pac shirtless on their wall.

funksterr said:

Noodled24 said:

You highlighted a point, called me ignorant then completely failed to address the point. I can do is shrug and repeat myself.

Whatever your feelings regarding soundscan, the fact remains that MTV did't start using the term "Hip-Hop" at the VMA's until 1999.

No, MTV did not coin the term. Yes it can be traced back further. But in the late 90s MTV was still relivant and mainstream.

You wrote "NOBODY referred to rap as hip-hop", when it was always hip hop. I don't know what to say about MTV and why it named as award one way and then another. All I know is the term "hip-hop music" was around when I was growing up and rap was an element of it, like beat-boxing, scratching, sampling, beats, etc. You made it sound like the term didn't gain general use until 1999,

Well, since I've used the terms "mainstream" and "charts" so frequently throughout this entire thread I thought the sentiment behind my statement would have been obvious. Regardless. The "term" hip-hop was not in common use in the mainstream media in 1990. MTV adapting their awards is an example of this. The Grammys did it even later.

I didn't address your point because you were so far off base and wrong on so many points I thought it was simpler to reduce my comments to the simplest and most direct form I could. So I just said "ignorant", which I didn't mean as name-calling. I apologise for that.

Ironic that you refer to me as ignorant then openly admit you were unable to find the words needed to articulate your own counter-argument.

Noodled24 said:

A few years later 14 year old white girls had posters of 2pac shirtless on their wall.

So you're saying that songs can only be popular & mainstream if white people listen to it? What about Vicente Fernandez, Juan Luis Guerra, Selena, Celia Cruz, Antonio Carlos Jobim, and Julio Iglesias?

Michael Jackson and Prince were both using guest rappers on theit tracks in the early-90s. With the masculinization of music as a whole (black music particularly with the rise of hip hop), the two gayest pop stars ever (who were already aging) didn't stand a chance unless they played a role to appeal to teens. Michael did a full-out New Jack Swing album (Dangerous is great R&B), while Prince had the entire NPG which he often treated as if it was a gang (especially in 1992). Overall, I love the NPG look/era with Rosie Gaines, Diamond and Pearl, even Tony M. to a degree.. and then Mayte and the newer line-up. Did Prince do anything to aid hip hop? IMO, no. Do a shit load of rappers claim to love/sample Prince? Yes. Has he made some amazing hip-hop tracks? Yes. There are days where I can't stop playing some of his more hardcore catchy badass tracks like Sexy MF, My Name is Prince, Love 2 the 9's, Days of Wild, Endorphin, Gett Off, etc..

I also just realized how for much of the 90s, Prince's hair in the back was always short (aka somewhat masculine)... After his long waves in 1990, it was the typhoon in 91/92, mushroom in 93, short in 94/95/96/97, and only grown out fully in 1999.

[Edited 3/8/15 13:35pm]

skywalker said:

thedance said:

In case "Pope" is Prince doing hiphop.

Then I hate Prince doing hiphop.... cuz that's a really bad track. Awful.

On my iTunes list to The Hits/ The B-sides, I have The Most Beautiful Girl In The World, right before Purple Rain, and not the totally lame "Pope" / hiphop track....

- What about Pussy Control? Gett Off? Race? Days of Wild - By in large, I really enjoy when Prince raps. He's underrated and has good delivery. - Play something like "18 and over" for someone that doesn't know who it is. Usually they are surprised it is Prince. His style is authentic enough to get the job done. A master MC? No. But miles better than a lot of early 90's rap. - I think it works best when he uses hiphop elements like he uses jazz elements: as enhancing flourishes. - Just as I would never call Prince a jazz artist, I know he is not a hip hop artist...I do like when he plays around and mixes it up with different genres. [Edited 3/7/15 14:14pm] [Edited 3/7/15 14:20pm]

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

I'm sure that has something to do with it. Along with the reluctance of many stations initially to play rap music. But my arument here isn't a political one. There are multiple reasons it was difficult to get rap onto the charts, but because of those reasons - thats why I don't think rap had become a mainstream genre unto itself. Even fewer artists had international success with singles.

Songs generally get on the hit radio stations with payola. Many rap records in the 1980s were on small independent labels, especially pre-1985 when Def Jam got with CBS Records (later Sony). Run DMC was on the indie Profile. LL Cool J & Beastie Boys were on Def Jam. The indies might not have had the funds to get widespread radio airplay. Some records became regional hits, but not the whole US. I used to hear a lot of Bobby Jimmy on a couple of local radio stations, but I don't think he was played in many other places. Early rap records were usually long songs, often around 10 minutes or more, and they weren't released on 45 which is what the regular charts were like pop, R&B, & country. Some didn't have 45 edits which is usually what pop stations play. R&B stations in the late 1970s & early 1980s did play longer songs and so did AOR and college radio. Many R&B stations avoided playing hip hop in the beginning other than a few songs. A lot of rap singles in the 1980s were only available on maxi singles and this was where the sales were. Maxi single sales were usually only counted on the dance chart, not the other ones. It has been known in some years as the disco singles chart. Rapper's Delight was so popular that it managed to get #4 R&B & #36 pop as a maxi single. There was an edited 45 version though for jukeboxes that had a red label instead of the usual light blue Sugarhill label.

Good points, but I'm not saying there wasn't a thriving rap scene.

UK charts are based on sales - Rappers Delight managed to hit #3 which is undoubtably a hit. #1 in the Dutch chart. Still no big followup single. Subsiquent re-releases of Rappers Delight have all failed to crack the top 50 (in the UK).

Some songs blew up into the mainstream. But it was infrequent at best as far as the charts are concerned. You're right that the charts don't give the whole story in the USA. Thats why I say there was a vibrant rap scene. But it really wasn't on the mainstream charts that often. Outside of the USA it was even less frequent.

Just looking at #1 US singles after "Ice Ice Baby" in '90

1991 - we have Kriss Kross and Sir-Mix-a-Lot.
'93 Snow "Informer"

'94 No #1 Rap song.
'95 TLC "Creep", "Waterfalls", Coolio "Gangsters Paradise"

'96 BoneThugs "Tha Crossroads" 2pac/Dre "How do you want it/California Love","No Diggity"
'97 "Can't nobody hold me down" "Hypnotise", I'll be missin you" "Mo Money Mo Problems"

Again this is no reflection on the genre. It was thriving. But in the early 90s it wasn't burning up the pop charts.

MickyDolenz said:

Noodled24 said:

A few years later 14 year old white girls had posters of 2pac shirtless on their wall.

So you're saying that songs can only be popular & mainstream if white people listen to it? What about Vicente Fernandez, Juan Luis Guerra, Selena, Celia Cruz, Antonio Carlos Jobim, and Julio Iglesias?

Thats not what I'm saying, and I suspect you know it.

Are you saying that in 1990 teenage (and predominantly white if you want to be crude about it) girls were not a major consumer of pop singles? You don't think their purchasing decisions impact what is sold?

Once again. I don't think hip-hop owes anything to Prince. BUT He was already an established international artist and had some international chart success with some hiphop songs a couple of years before hiphop was on the charts with any kind of frequency. Before we saw the emergence of the superstars of rap.

[Edited 3/8/15 15:49pm]

Noodled24 said:

MickyDolenz said:

So you're saying that songs can only be popular & mainstream if white people listen to it? What about Vicente Fernandez, Juan Luis Guerra, Selena, Celia Cruz, Antonio Carlos Jobim, and Julio Iglesias?

Thats not what I'm saying, and I suspect you know it.

Are you saying that in 1990 teenage (and predominantly white if you want to be crude about it) girls were not a major consumer of pop singles? You don't think their purchasing decisions impact what is sold?

Teenage white girls bought Tone Loc. Teenage white girls loved Will Smith, LL Cool J, Young MC. Virginal teenage white young women hopped to Walk This Way.

There is too much you get waaaaaay wrong. Not just a little, you are completely off-track-crashing-through-fences-hitting-grazing-cows-falling-face-first-in-manure W.R.0.N.G.

You were either not old enough to remember or you lived in a remote, all-white community where nothing but country played on the radio.

0

Prince is too good for hip hop and always has been

Noodled24 said:

'The paradigm of Prince & Hip-hop'

I just want to thank you for starting this thread. It's one of the more interesting ones I've read around here in some time and reading people's different opinions on the matter is intersting for a change. I pretty much said what I wanted to about the matter in the "Rock in Rio" thread but...

.

To bring it back to Prince for a bit and keep it from being moved off topic, I actually enjoy a lot of Prince's forays into hip hop. "Days of Wild" is rap and one of my all time favorite Prince tracks.

.

I like "18 and Over", "My Name is Prince", "Funky Design", "Sexy MF", "Face Down", "Why Should I do That", "The Pope", "Dead On It"...there are a lot of them I like but they're mostly when Prince is doing the vocals. "D.M.S.R." is arguably rap. I think the problem is that Prince simply used horrible rappers to fill in the blanks before he felt entirely confident with the style. Think about it. The rap tracks that everyone hates almost always feature a really shitty rapper.

.

Having said that, some folks here just HATE rap and hip hop as a genre, period, and want to puke every time they hear it. Over the years I've noticed that a lot of times when Prince sounds "too black" or whatever, it's met with a negative reaction by a large segment of fans. Those folks usually like the ballads, the jazz, the pop and the rock stuff. I like parts of it all and specifically as it relates to Prince, I like how he spins it all in makes his own thing.

.

He's never really been a pioneer beyond the ways he can take established stuff and make it his own. That was always what drew me to him. I liked Zeppelin but I also likes James Brown. I liked Marvin Gaye but I also liked Pink Floyd, the Clash, the Beatles, the Stones and Peter Gabriel. Hendrix. Prince threw it all together in a way I never heard besides Sly, Funkadelic and later, the Red Hot Chille Peppers. Rap came later, past his heyday and creative peak, so I don't fault him for incorporating it. Before rap and hip and hip hop, he was weaving sounds and musical style together that he had lived through when he was growing up. Rap came AFTER he was grown up and already an established superstar and he wove it in after the fact, sometimes with clunky results but often with success once he found his wa around it.

.

Hope that make sense.

.

TL/DR: Prince built his musical style as a child and teenager based on funk, punk, disco and rock, all genres that had preceded his stardom. After he became a star, rap and hip hop came along and he had to add it to his stew after it had already been cooked.

.

And Days of Wild is rather bad ass so I'll take me some rap.

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

TrevorAyer said:

Gett Off is not rap.. Genius guitar / flute riff ... sexy subject catchy chorus 2 verses SUNG ... and a mediocre at best rap in it PRINCE HAS NEVER HAD A RAP HIT! His beats and raps were more than played out before p ever got hold of them P influenced pop landscape which influenced rap ... But prince is just really bad at rap .... No rapper having heard real rap , wants to sound like prince rapping .. It's really bad

This rap says otherwise:

-

"One, two, three, no, little cutie, I ain't drinkin'
Scope this, I was just thinkin'
You + me, what a ride
If you was thinkin' the same
We could continue outside
Lay your pretty body against a parkin' meter
Strip your dress down
Like I was strippin' a Peter Paul's Almond Joy
Lemme show you baby I'm a talented boy

-

Everybody grab a body
Pump it like you want somebody

-

Gett off

-

So here we-so here we-so here we are, here we are
In my paisley crib
Whatcha want to eat? "Ribs"
Ha, toy, I don't serve ribs,
You better be happy that dress is still on
I heard the rip when you sat down

-

Honey them hips is gone
That's alright, I clock 'em that way
Remind me of something James used to say

-

"I like 'em fat"
"I like 'em proud"
"Ya gotta have a mother for me"

-

Now move your big ass 'round this way
So I can work on that zipper, baby
Tonight your a star
And I'm the big dipper..."

---

Also, Art Official Age was #1 on the Hip/hop & R&B charts.

[Edited 3/8/15 21:22pm]

Aerogram said:

Noodled24 said:

Thats not what I'm saying, and I suspect you know it.

Are you saying that in 1990 teenage (and predominantly white if you want to be crude about it) girls were not a major consumer of pop singles? You don't think their purchasing decisions impact what is sold?

Teenage white girls bought Tone Loc. Teenage white girls loved Will Smith, LL Cool J, Young MC. Virginal teenage white young women hopped to Walk This Way.

There is too much you get waaaaaay wrong. Not just a little, you are completely off-track-crashing-through-fences-hitting-grazing-cows-falling-face-first-in-manure W.R.0.N.G.

You were either not old enough to remember or you lived in a remote, all-white community where nothing but country played on the radio.

0

If I was wrong then this thread would have been over 2 pages ago because someone would have said Here's a #1 single, and another and another.

Until then it was a few break out songs. You're naming a handful of artists who had a handful of top 10 hits over 4/5 year period. Thats why you're not giving me chart positions just names of artists who today we look back on as innovators but who at the time had very little chart success.

Tone Loc - 1 hit album, 2 US top 10 hits in 1989. Internationally, he never broke the UK top 10 album or single.

Young MC - 1 Top 10 album, no top 10 singles, Internationally never broke the UK top 10 album or single.

LL Cool J - First US top 10 single 1990. Another in 1995 and two more in 1996. With the same trend in the UK one top ten hit single in '87, then he didn't dent the charts again until 95 where he had a string of top 10 singles...

Will Smith - First top 10 hit 1991, "Boom Shake the Room" in 1993 didn't make the US top 10 but was a UK #1 - success that wasn't repeated until '97. "Parents Just Don't Understand" was huge... but still no top 10.

[Edited 3/9/15 15:10pm]

TrevorAyer said:

Gett Off is not rap.. Genius guitar / flute riff ... sexy subject catchy chorus 2 verses SUNG ... and a mediocre at best rap in it PRINCE HAS NEVER HAD A RAP HIT!

You're saying Prince sings all the lyrics in "Gett Off"? The delivery is clearly closer to Rap than Singing. The same with MNIP & Sexy MF.

His beats and raps were more than played out before p ever got hold of them P influenced pop landscape which influenced rap ... But prince is just really bad at rap .... No rapper having heard real rap , wants to sound like prince rapping .. It's really bad

Yet both D&P and the album are two of his best selling and produced several international hit singles.

Noodled24 said:

Aerogram said:

Teenage white girls bought Tone Loc. Teenage white girls loved Will Smith, LL Cool J, Young MC. Virginal teenage white young women hopped to Walk This Way.

There is too much you get waaaaaay wrong. Not just a little, you are completely off-track-crashing-through-fences-hitting-grazing-cows-falling-face-first-in-manure W.R.0.N.G.

You were either not old enough to remember or you lived in a remote, all-white community where nothing but country played on the radio.

0

If I was wrong then this thread would have been over 2 pages ago because someone would have said Here's a #1 single, and another and another.

Until then it was a few break out songs. You're naming a handful of artists who had a handful of top 10 hits over 4/5 year period. Thats why you're not giving me chart positions just names of artists who today we look back on as innovators but who at the time had very little chart success.

Tone Loc - 1 hit album, 2 US top 10 hits in 1989. Internationally, he never broke the UK top 10 album or single.

Young MC - 1 Top 10 album, no top 10 singles, Internationally never broke the UK top 10 album or single.

LL Cool J - First US top 10 single 1990. Another in 1995 and two more in 1996. With the same trend in the UK one top ten hit single in '87, then he didn't dent the charts again until 95 where he had a string of top 10 singles...

Will Smith - First top 10 hit 1991, "Boom Shake the Room" in 1993 didn't make the US top 10 but was a UK #1 - success that wasn't repeated until '97. "Parents Just Don't Understand" was huge... but still no top 10.

[Edited 3/9/15 15:10pm]

So according to you, "rap" went from not being mainstream to being dominant, with only insignificant chart action or cultural impact before that big year?

Also, since you're talking about international charts now, you think it went from the kind of stuff you had to look for to the kind of stuff available internationally nearly anywhere?

Prince had no impact on hip hop other than making the genre even more common place than it already was.