I still dont like the way this infamous line reads on the back of the AOA album. It was ok when it ended with "Prince and the Revolution" and "Prince and the New Power Generation". But my initial impression of seeing it end with Joshua was 'who the hell is this young nobody punk?!" - I know it was not nice and I am a pitiful Prince worshipper of more than 35 YEARS (damn! thats a long time).

The main reason that Prince has always been my musical hero is that he was not like anyone else and did not seem to need anyone else. He actually was the self-contained, one man band that Chris Moon billed him to be when he brought Prince to Owen Husney in the 70s. This concept was maintained throughout his career and, even when including some bits and pieces contributed by associates here and there, remained unshaken for all this time. Those of us who are old enough can recall the vigorous conversations around Andre Cymone, Wendy and Lisa, Dez Dickerson, and whoever else wanted to stake a claim on the genius of Prince - some were less valid than others (dont get me started on W&L).

Fast forward to 2014 and for some unknown reason, here comes this obviously undeserving boy in what, on its face, smacks of some kind of tactic by Prince to get popular with the kids (being the unconventionally clever marketer that he has always been). While it is a departure from his formerly unblemished record of cutting edge, trend defying originality, it is surely not the first time (see Tony M and the introduction of hip hop into the Prince sound in the 90s - and even TC Ellis' mama wanted to forget his less than auspicious stint at Paisley Park).

That didnt phase me - Prince was easily still better than everyone else on the planet and still was managing to age with grace. Somehow, this was different. The dreadful album release party made me sick. I felt like the grumpy old man who hated all these punk ass kids for being punk ass kids - which would have been ok eventually because I am a grumpy old man now. The most distressing was the fact that I was justified! And Prince didnt seem to know it. Watching the clueless little chick walking around the Park searching for something cool to say and misidentifying the pictures of players and albums on the walls proved my point: unqualified youngsters being brought in just because they are young and pretty while being given too much exposure. The white boy who was doing some bullshit video effects or something in the studio and Joshua just playing music files that Prince called for at the soundboard. We all love that Prince changes all the time but when it becomes a departure from the basic essentials of what makes Prince the Prince we love, the flashing red lights go on and sirens go off .

Prince and Levi Seacer, jr.

Young people eh, ain't they just the worst!

JoshuaWho said:

I still dont like the way this infamous line reads on the back of the AOA album. It was ok when it ended with "Prince and the Revolution" and "Prince and the New Power Generation". But my initial impression of seeing it end with Joshua was 'who the hell is this young nobody punk?!" - I know it was not nice and I am a pitiful Prince worshipper of more than 35 YEARS (damn! thats a long time).

The main reason that Prince has always been my musical hero is that he was not like anyone else and did not seem to need anyone else. He actually was the self-contained, one man band that Chris Moon billed him to be when he brought Prince to Owen Husney in the 70s. This concept was maintained throughout his career and, even when including some bits and pieces contributed by associates here and there, remained unshaken for all this time. Those of us who are old enough can recall the vigorous conversations around Andre Cymone, Wendy and Lisa, Dez Dickerson, and whoever else wanted to stake a claim on the genius of Prince - some were less valid than others (dont get me started on W&L).

Fast forward to 2014 and for some unknown reason, here comes this obviously undeserving boy in what, on its face, smacks of some kind of tactic by Prince to get popular with the kids (being the unconventionally clever marketer that he has always been). While it is a departure from his formerly unblemished record of cutting edge, trend defying originality, it is surely not the first time (see Tony M and the introduction of hip hop into the Prince sound in the 90s - and even TC Ellis' mama wanted to forget his less than auspicious stint at Paisley Park).

That didnt phase me - Prince was easily still better than everyone else on the planet and still was managing to age with grace. Somehow, this was different. The dreadful album release party made me sick. I felt like the grumpy old man who hated all these punk ass kids for being punk ass kids - which would have been ok eventually because I am a grumpy old man now. The most distressing was the fact that I was justified! And Prince didnt seem to know it. Watching the clueless little chick walking around the Park searching for something cool to say and misidentifying the pictures of players and albums on the walls proved my point: unqualified youngsters being brought in just because they are young and pretty while being given too much exposure. The white boy who was doing some bullshit video effects or something in the studio and Joshua just playing music files that Prince called for at the soundboard. We all love that Prince changes all the time but when it becomes a departure from the basic essentials of what makes Prince the Prince we love, the flashing red lights go on and sirens go off .

You know, I feel you on this...BUT...Prince cannot stop the march of time, and he did what he should have to dip his toe into music as it sounds TODAY. He's looking for the click with the younger R&B or the younger EDM sound, it was an experiment really, and not a bad one. It was ballsy for him, if you ask me.

However, I'd like to hear him work with Jack White on something like PE or Diplo or Mark Ronson on AOA... but those dudes expect to get paid lololol I'm betting 3EG work dirt cheap to be able to work with Prince, and since he's running the business too, I can't get mad at him....the music doesnt give the $$$ return like it used to...so I'd guess these younger people are a way to save money, influence the younger artists and keep his ear to the ground with what shappening rt now. Albums for Prince are stages he moves thorough - this one was easy for him because musically, its easy. He's looking for a way to make himself interested....see what he can make his own and then we'll eventually see how he changes what he's absorbed...

terrig said:

JoshuaWho said:

I still dont like the way this infamous line reads on the back of the AOA album. It was ok when it ended with "Prince and the Revolution" and "Prince and the New Power Generation". But my initial impression of seeing it end with Joshua was 'who the hell is this young nobody punk?!" - I know it was not nice and I am a pitiful Prince worshipper of more than 35 YEARS (damn! thats a long time).

The main reason that Prince has always been my musical hero is that he was not like anyone else and did not seem to need anyone else. He actually was the self-contained, one man band that Chris Moon billed him to be when he brought Prince to Owen Husney in the 70s. This concept was maintained throughout his career and, even when including some bits and pieces contributed by associates here and there, remained unshaken for all this time. Those of us who are old enough can recall the vigorous conversations around Andre Cymone, Wendy and Lisa, Dez Dickerson, and whoever else wanted to stake a claim on the genius of Prince - some were less valid than others (dont get me started on W&L).

Fast forward to 2014 and for some unknown reason, here comes this obviously undeserving boy in what, on its face, smacks of some kind of tactic by Prince to get popular with the kids (being the unconventionally clever marketer that he has always been). While it is a departure from his formerly unblemished record of cutting edge, trend defying originality, it is surely not the first time (see Tony M and the introduction of hip hop into the Prince sound in the 90s - and even TC Ellis' mama wanted to forget his less than auspicious stint at Paisley Park).

That didnt phase me - Prince was easily still better than everyone else on the planet and still was managing to age with grace. Somehow, this was different. The dreadful album release party made me sick. I felt like the grumpy old man who hated all these punk ass kids for being punk ass kids - which would have been ok eventually because I am a grumpy old man now. The most distressing was the fact that I was justified! And Prince didnt seem to know it. Watching the clueless little chick walking around the Park searching for something cool to say and misidentifying the pictures of players and albums on the walls proved my point: unqualified youngsters being brought in just because they are young and pretty while being given too much exposure. The white boy who was doing some bullshit video effects or something in the studio and Joshua just playing music files that Prince called for at the soundboard. We all love that Prince changes all the time but when it becomes a departure from the basic essentials of what makes Prince the Prince we love, the flashing red lights go on and sirens go off .

You know, I feel you on this...BUT...Prince cannot stop the march of time, and he did what he should have to dip his toe into music as it sounds TODAY. He's looking for the click with the younger R&B or the younger EDM sound, it was an experiment really, and not a bad one. It was ballsy for him, if you ask me.

However, I'd like to hear him work with Jack White on something like PE or Diplo or Mark Ronson on AOA... but those dudes expect to get paid lololol I'm betting 3EG work dirt cheap to be able to work with Prince, and since he's running the business too, I can't get mad at him....the music doesnt give the $$$ return like it used to...so I'd guess these younger people are a way to save money, influence the younger artists and keep his ear to the ground with what shappening rt now. Albums for Prince are stages he moves thorough - this one was easy for him because musically, its easy. He's looking for a way to make himself interested....see what he can make his own and then we'll eventually see how he changes what he's absorbed...

I understand you point. I just dont need to hear him work with someone beyond a single. THere are no younger artists worthy of actually collaborating with him in mt opinion. Jack White is what passes for genius to a generation who simply doesnt knw bettr so they think he has the weight to be in the same room with Prince. If and when Prince does anything with a younger artist or targeting a younger audience, it is not a true mutual collaboration - it is strategic. He was getting exposure opening the Grammys with Beyonce. Same thing with doing American Idol. And most recetly, again, with that lame Kendrick rap on the Yahoo stream fiasco.

All of that is strategy - marketing, PR, product placement. As far as the art is concerned, Prince simply doesnt need them. Purists (of which I am one) dont want the flavoring, filter, or pollutant of inferior artists representing unsubstantial trends. Prince is the most self contained major artist. HE doesnt NEED anyone and has proven it more than once. That he chooses to employ others doesnt equate with a need to do so on an artistic basis.

[Edited 1/24/15 8:42am]

JoshuaWho said:

terrig said:

You know, I feel you on this...BUT...Prince cannot stop the march of time, and he did what he should have to dip his toe into music as it sounds TODAY. He's looking for the click with the younger R&B or the younger EDM sound, it was an experiment really, and not a bad one. It was ballsy for him, if you ask me.

However, I'd like to hear him work with Jack White on something like PE or Diplo or Mark Ronson on AOA... but those dudes expect to get paid lololol I'm betting 3EG work dirt cheap to be able to work with Prince, and since he's running the business too, I can't get mad at him....the music doesnt give the $$$ return like it used to...so I'd guess these younger people are a way to save money, influence the younger artists and keep his ear to the ground with what shappening rt now. Albums for Prince are stages he moves thorough - this one was easy for him because musically, its easy. He's looking for a way to make himself interested....see what he can make his own and then we'll eventually see how he changes what he's absorbed...

I understand you point. I just dont need to hear him work with someone beyond a single. THere are no younger artists worthy of actually collaborating with him in mt opinion. Jack White is what passes for genius to a generation who simply doesnt knw bettr so they think he has the weight to be in the same room with Prince. If and when Prince does anything with a younger artist or targeting a younger audience, it is not a true mutual collaboration - it is strategic. He was getting exposure opening the Grammys with Beyonce. Same thing with doing American Idol. And most recetly, again, with that lame Kendrick rap on the Yahoo stream fiasco.

All of that is strategy - marketing, PR, product placement. As far as the art is concerned, Prince simply doesnt need them. Purists (of which I am one) dont want the flavoring, filter, or pollutant of inferior artists representing unsubstantial trends. Prince is the most self contained major artist. HE doesnt NEED anyone and has proven it more than once. That he chooses to employ others doesnt equate with a need to do so on an artistic basis.

[Edited 1/24/15 8:42am]

Except Prince and "purism" don't go well together. He made his mark by fusing different styles and sounds.

JoshuaWho said:

terrig said:

You know, I feel you on this...BUT...Prince cannot stop the march of time, and he did what he should have to dip his toe into music as it sounds TODAY. He's looking for the click with the younger R&B or the younger EDM sound, it was an experiment really, and not a bad one. It was ballsy for him, if you ask me.

However, I'd like to hear him work with Jack White on something like PE or Diplo or Mark Ronson on AOA... but those dudes expect to get paid lololol I'm betting 3EG work dirt cheap to be able to work with Prince, and since he's running the business too, I can't get mad at him....the music doesnt give the $$$ return like it used to...so I'd guess these younger people are a way to save money, influence the younger artists and keep his ear to the ground with what shappening rt now. Albums for Prince are stages he moves thorough - this one was easy for him because musically, its easy. He's looking for a way to make himself interested....see what he can make his own and then we'll eventually see how he changes what he's absorbed...

I understand you point. I just dont need to hear him work with someone beyond a single. THere are no younger artists worthy of actually collaborating with him in mt opinion. Jack White is what passes for genius to a generation who simply doesnt knw bettr so they think he has the weight to be in the same room with Prince. If and when Prince does anything with a younger artist or targeting a younger audience, it is not a true mutual collaboration - it is strategic. He was getting exposure opening the Grammys with Beyonce. Same thing with doing American Idol. And most recetly, again, with that lame Kendrick rap on the Yahoo stream fiasco.

All of that is strategy - marketing, PR, product placement. As far as the art is concerned, Prince simply doesnt need them. Purists (of which I am one) dont want the flavoring, filter, or pollutant of inferior artists representing unsubstantial trends. Prince is the most self contained major artist. HE doesnt NEED anyone and has proven it more than once. That he chooses to employ others doesnt equate with a need to do so on an artistic basis.

[Edited 1/24/15 8:42am]

You're entirely right Prince doesn't need them, but he sucks the juice out and leaves the shell behind lolololol

Aerogram said:

JoshuaWho said:

I understand you point. I just dont need to hear him work with someone beyond a single. THere are no younger artists worthy of actually collaborating with him in mt opinion. Jack White is what passes for genius to a generation who simply doesnt knw bettr so they think he has the weight to be in the same room with Prince. If and when Prince does anything with a younger artist or targeting a younger audience, it is not a true mutual collaboration - it is strategic. He was getting exposure opening the Grammys with Beyonce. Same thing with doing American Idol. And most recetly, again, with that lame Kendrick rap on the Yahoo stream fiasco.

All of that is strategy - marketing, PR, product placement. As far as the art is concerned, Prince simply doesnt need them. Purists (of which I am one) dont want the flavoring, filter, or pollutant of inferior artists representing unsubstantial trends. Prince is the most self contained major artist. HE doesnt NEED anyone and has proven it more than once. That he chooses to employ others doesnt equate with a need to do so on an artistic basis.

[Edited 1/24/15 8:42am]

Except Prince and "purism" don't go well together. He made his mark by fusing different styles and sounds.

Understand the meaning and context of the term purism - your reference is not it. I am referring to pure original creation - not emulation.

JoshuaWho said:

I understand you point. I just dont need to hear him work with someone beyond a single. THere are no younger artists worthy of actually collaborating with him in mt opinion. Jack White is what passes for genius to a generation who simply doesnt knw bettr so they think he has the weight to be in the same room with Prince. If and when Prince does anything with a younger artist or targeting a younger audience, it is not a true mutual collaboration - it is strategic. He was getting exposure opening the Grammys with Beyonce. Same thing with doing American Idol. And most recetly, again, with that lame Kendrick rap on the Yahoo stream fiasco.

Jack White is very talented. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with his name.

As for Prince colaborations unless you're there at the time or an engineer has spoken on it then you have no idea who did what.

All of that is strategy - marketing, PR, product placement. As far as the art is concerned, Prince simply doesnt need them. Purists (of which I am one) dont want the flavoring, filter, or pollutant of inferior artists representing unsubstantial trends. Prince is the most self contained major artist. HE doesnt NEED anyone and has proven it more than once. That he chooses to employ others doesnt equate with a need to do so on an artistic basis.

[Edited 1/24/15 8:42am]

You are aware that Prince has colaborated with people his entire career? Former engineers have also produced Prince and contributed to tracks. That drum solo from "Shh" came from a young drummer who was paractically unknown at the time.

Your entire post reads like someone who is bitter towards Joshua Welton without actually knowing for a fact what he's contributed, and simultaniously ignoring the fact people like Michael Koppleman are all over D&P.

TwiliteKid said:

JoshuaWho said:

I still dont like the way this infamous line reads on the back of the AOA album. It was ok when it ended with "Prince and the Revolution" and "Prince and the New Power Generation". But my initial impression of seeing it end with Joshua was 'who the hell is this young nobody punk?!" - I know it was not nice and I am a pitiful Prince worshipper of more than 35 YEARS (damn! thats a long time).

The main reason that Prince has always been my musical hero is that he was not like anyone else and did not seem to need anyone else. He actually was the self-contained, one man band that Chris Moon billed him to be when he brought Prince to Owen Husney in the 70s. This concept was maintained throughout his career and, even when including some bits and pieces contributed by associates here and there, remained unshaken for all this time. Those of us who are old enough can recall the vigorous conversations around Andre Cymone, Wendy and Lisa, Dez Dickerson, and whoever else wanted to stake a claim on the genius of Prince - some were less valid than others (dont get me started on W&L).

Fast forward to 2014 and for some unknown reason, here comes this obviously undeserving boy in what, on its face, smacks of some kind of tactic by Prince to get popular with the kids (being the unconventionally clever marketer that he has always been). While it is a departure from his formerly unblemished record of cutting edge, trend defying originality, it is surely not the first time (see Tony M and the introduction of hip hop into the Prince sound in the 90s - and even TC Ellis' mama wanted to forget his less than auspicious stint at Paisley Park).

That didnt phase me - Prince was easily still better than everyone else on the planet and still was managing to age with grace. Somehow, this was different. The dreadful album release party made me sick. I felt like the grumpy old man who hated all these punk ass kids for being punk ass kids - which would have been ok eventually because I am a grumpy old man now. The most distressing was the fact that I was justified! And Prince didnt seem to know it. Watching the clueless little chick walking around the Park searching for something cool to say and misidentifying the pictures of players and albums on the walls proved my point: unqualified youngsters being brought in just because they are young and pretty while being given too much exposure. The white boy who was doing some bullshit video effects or something in the studio and Joshua just playing music files that Prince called for at the soundboard. We all love that Prince changes all the time but when it becomes a departure from the basic essentials of what makes Prince the Prince we love, the flashing red lights go on and sirens go off .

Whilst I would have agreed with you several years back, I am now of the opinion that Prince has been suffering writers block for quite some time. Its as if the well has run dry and he has been stretching to come up with new ideas. AOA seems to be a relative return to form. It feels like a fresh, new idea which has been lacking for so long. At this point in my Prince fandom, I really couldnt care less who or what lies behind the inspiration. I just want to hear new Prince music that excites me again as opposed to thinking "yeah, its alright.... not brilliant though", which is what every album since 3121 has made me think. And take away 3121, then we have to go back to TRC to really make me feel like his heart was in it.

So if he needs a Joshua WhatsHisName or some other young unknowns to inspire him to sound fresh again, then so be it. We all know at the end of the day that the songwriting is mainly all his, even if the arrangements and production were put together with fresh, young ears.

I dont think he will hang around for too long in whatever place he is currently in. He will move on pretty quickly. Hopefully though, he will move on with a renewed enthusiasm and some frsh ideas with which to work with. IF Prince decides to come out of hiding and give us anymore music (personally I think that is a big IF), then the next project will probably be one of his written, produced, arranged, composed and kitchen-sinked by Prince albums, with, hopefully, some new ideas he has garnered from the kids he has been working with.

So, Prince surrounds himself with young nobody's and we get AOA and Pectrumelectrum.

Have you forgotten when Prince was hanging out with the legends Larry Graham and Chakka Khan? We got New Power Soul.

Thank you Joshua Welton, thank you.

TheEnglishGent said:
Have you forgotten when Prince was hanging out with the legends Larry Graham and Chakka Khan? We got New Power Soul.

It is hard as hell to argue with this point...

TheEnglishGent said:

JoshuaWho said:

Aerogram said:

Except Prince and "purism" don't go well together. He made his mark by fusing different styles and sounds.

Understand the meaning and context of the term purism - your reference is not it. I am referring to pure original creation - not emulation.

"Purism" does't mean that something was done as a "pure original creation" excluding other people's input, it means it seeks something done in its alleged "pure original form" -- it can be a classical piece done with instruments of the period, done according to the original conventions, for instance. A good example of how Prince is not a purist: how he replaced live horns with synths initially, a major feature of the Minneapolis Sound. In a way, being a Prince purist would be to want that -- no horns, but synths, maybe just live drums and linn drum machine.

In answer to the OP, Prince's "adoption" of Welton is all but untypical. P has always, for one thing, tended to go for the most convenient option (musician who happens to be around vs. top-notch session musician who isn't) and the option he's more compfy with on the human side (a friend vs. a top-notch sessionb musician who isn't).

What he does now with Hosh is EXACTLY what he did in the 90's with Kirk Johnson: he made great friends with a dude who happened to be around and he felt that dude could bring a fresh, more contemporary sound to his music, so he let him toy with it a bit, under of course his direction.

Similarly for example the fact that Levi Seacer, Jr. and David Z. were in-house producers for Paisley Park productions at some point, then later Ricky Peterson: those people certainly have talent but if the goal was to sell records they weren't exactly Teddy Riley or L.A./Babyface or Jam/Lewis either, they just happened to be around and get along well with Prince. Even the decision to ask Koppleman to finish Ingrid's album was simply based on the fact that Koppleman... was there. He did a great job (Prince was reportedly mind-blown) but he could have done a lame one all the same: he was an in-house engineer and therefore it was convenient to have him do the job.

Similarly when Prince decided hip-hop had to be brought in the Paisley house, his first choice was Robin Power, who wasn't exactly the most promising rapper of her time but just... was there (and then all of a sudden Prince decided it should be Carmen, an even worse choice, and thanked Robin).

As for T.C. Ellis I'd like to remind the OP that actually it's WB who asked Prince to sign him: TC had asked Prince to produce him for years and Prince had always declined, then TC self-released a single that created some hype and WB told Prince they were interested in that rapper from Mpls, so Prince signed him rather than to have WB doing it without him. Also, TC wanted to work with Mico Weaver (how their collaborative work sounded, we may never know) but Prince forced Levi on him. TC wasn't very happy with the sound Levi designed for his album but he had no choice in the matter anbd expected to do "his thing" with the second album, which of course never materialised. It's possible that TC would have come-up with something that would have had more credibility if he'd been allowed to record the album he wanted to.

databank said:

TC wasn't very happy with the sound Levi designed for his album but he had no choice in the matter anbd expected to do "his thing" with the second album, which of course never materialised. It's possible that TC would have come-up with something that would have had more credibility if he'd been allowed to record the album he wanted to.

No, no, no...this shall not pass. The rest of your post is a good, interesting and very likley view as to what happened/took place. The problem with TC Ellis had nothing to do with tracks or production. His problem was his simple rap style. The ABC style he employed died years before he ever made a record. It was just dated upon release. He was a horrible rapper. Contrast his flow on ANY song on his album with Rakim on the Jody Watley song, "Friends" which was produced by Andre Cymone about 5 years earlier. Can't blame it on the producer.

You do realize that the Revolution and every new incarnation of the NPG were just as much 'nobodies' as you think Welton is, right?