novabrkr said:

leonche64 said:

I meant to say "Prince" music. It is a style all it's own.

I am positive.

You don't have to agree. Listen to ANY song and I challege you to go four measures without a turn around.

That really has nothing to do with the complexity of his arrangements.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the term "turn around", but if you are referring to chord progressions I can assure you that Prince has plenty of songs that break away from the pattern of repeating the same chords over and over again.

You sound like you've never listened to the Parade album, just to pick one album as an example.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the complexity of arrangements. Don't misunderstand, a complex arrangement does not automatically equal a good song, and the converse is true. This is pop music we are talking about, not a hundred piece orchestra.
The term "turn around" is a live musician's term for when a musical phrase ends and is then repeated. When you are a live session player, like I am, you often play with musicians you have never met, nor played with before. On stage they give you the key, the change and the turn around. The drummer or piano counts off the tempo.
Parade is a PERFECT example. You listen to that album and it is a musical journey with many textures and layers to it. It is a feast for the ears. That does not change the fact that when you start to play it yourself, start to make your chart and tab it out, you realize that it is not the arrangement, it is the instrumentation that makes it special. Just like it is not the singer, but the voice.
If we are tangled up in a semantics vortex, then okay, but my original point of different studio work would make his "new" stuff sound new, still stands.

databank said:

Maybe. From what I understood it was more literal, like them people who says contemporary art ain't art because it isn't "beautiful", that kind of outdated 19th century conservative right wing theory of art, but maybe I misunderstood. Where IMHO it is biased in the first place is maybe in the fact that there isn't just ONE set of rules in music in the first place because music theory wasn't an European privilege and even though it pushed the shit really far in terms of harmony, there were other sets of rules that could be followed or broken over the world, and IDK anyway where electroacoustic or breakbeat or glitch would fit in the world of music theory if not in yet another realm than the "classical" ones that depended on harmony and/or melody. Unfortunately I didn't have an opportunity to debate it with that person so IDK what they really meant

That presumes that European music was uninformed and created without a tradition entirely. In some ways, that presumption is probably true, since gaining an education of other musical traditions was near impossible, almost until modern times, actually. But music, and most forms of art did not originate out of the cosmos, and ideas permeate in the spiritual sense. It's why Satie goes hand in hand with East Indian influences, with the electro-accoustic, minimalist crowd. There is a commonality of musical language. Musicality, and harmony had already been challenged long before that though, whether you're talking about chanting monks, to difficult noisy pieces.

In about the mid-century you had people breaking away from traditional note structures, rebelling from the classical European training, throwing out the rules. They were almost all schooled, and many could read music, or approached it simply as fine art rather than music. Of course, Blues and Jazz already existed by then. The breakbeat came out of that, and the repition is the common ground. Then you get into tape music.

leonche64 said:

Prince music has never been about complicated arrangements, it has always been about a strong vocal melody and clever lyrics. If you are a decent musican and you put on a new Prince song, you have it figured out by the time it gets to the end. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is, and that is the beauty of it.

I've been a professional musician myself for 40 years and I strongly disagree. It's true enough perhaps for the hits, but digging down into the details of Prince's arrangements, I find his work endlessly fascinating. Among musicians who have had pop chart success, probably only Frank Zappa is comparable. Because Prince's oeuvre includes a great deal of funk, there are certainly a lot of songs with only a few chords or a repetitive bass groove -- but he often does some wild and brilliant stuff over the top. Among his most well-known work, The Lovesexy album comes to mind as a good example. But he can also be a magnificent songcraftsmen when he wants to be. If you figured out Condition Of The Heart in one listen, you've got better ears than anyone I've ever known or worked with, which includes some famous Hollywood composers.

I think Prnce is sometimes underestimated because he puts the simplistic and sophisticated side-by-side. Even a ridiculously simple rock tune like U Got The Look has a remarkable, contrapuntal coda that wouldn't be out of place on an ambitious prog-rock-fusion album. Some of his vocal harmonies are astounding. He is also vastly underestimated as a pianist (I prefer his piano playing to his guitar playing actually). I don't know too many artists in the pop sphere who could pull off the second half of U're Gonna C Me on the One Nite Alone piano album.

duccichucka said:

One of the reasons why Prince has hit a brick wall is because he does not know music theory.

.
It all comes down to what one means by "knowing music theory".

He may not have all the technical language down, but he clearly knows all his chords with extensions. I am sure if one asked him to play a G aeolian with an added major 3 he could do it. Listen to his piano playing on One Nite Alone. Sure, he has a preference for stock major/minor chords and doesn't venture too far out, but he isn't unaware of more complex stuff either. I think it's more than him just having "a good ear". He knows his stuff but probably has his own way of understanding it. We also know how much Prince loves to play the 'mysteriouso reclusive genius' role, so he's not going to give away too easily what's in his deck. I'm sure he couldn't tell us the range of a baritone sax or whether it's a concert-pitch, Bb or Eb instrument, but that's not relevant to him. He would play it on a guitar and tell the bari player to work it out.

.

[Edited 1/1/15 0:14am]

PlusSign said:

leonche64 said:

Prince music has never been about complicated arrangements, it has always been about a strong vocal melody and clever lyrics. If you are a decent musican and you put on a new Prince song, you have it figured out by the time it gets to the end. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is, and that is the beauty of it.

I've been a professional musician myself for 40 years and I strongly disagree. It's true enough perhaps for the hits, but digging down into the details of Prince's arrangements, I find his work endlessly fascinating. Among musicians who have had pop chart success, probably only Frank Zappa is comparable. Because Prince's oeuvre includes a great deal of funk, there are certainly a lot of songs with only a few chords or a repetitive bass groove -- but he often does some wild and brilliant stuff over the top. Among his most well-known work, The Lovesexy album comes to mind as a good example. But he can also be a magnificent songcraftsmen when he wants to be. If you figured out Condition Of The Heart in one listen, you've got better ears than anyone I've ever known or worked with, which includes some famous Hollywood composers.

I think Prnce is sometimes underestimated because he puts the simplistic and sophisticated side-by-side. Even a ridiculously simple rock tune like U Got The Look has a remarkable, contrapuntal coda that wouldn't be out of place on an ambitious prog-rock-fusion album. Some of his vocal harmonies are astounding. He is also vastly underestimated as a pianist (I prefer his piano playing to his guitar playing actually). I don't know too many artists in the pop sphere who could pull off the second half of U're Gonna C Me on the One Nite Alone piano album.

See my last post for further expansion. Lovesexy came out close to 30 years ago, anything on that album can not be considered new. But it does fit the same sound, which I also talked about.

Do u believe what was true in 1978 is true in 2015?

PlusSign said:

leonche64 said:

Prince music has never been about complicated arrangements, it has always been about a strong vocal melody and clever lyrics. If you are a decent musican and you put on a new Prince song, you have it figured out by the time it gets to the end. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is, and that is the beauty of it.

I've been a professional musician myself for 40 years and I strongly disagree. It's true enough perhaps for the hits, but digging down into the details of Prince's arrangements, I find his work endlessly fascinating. Among musicians who have had pop chart success, probably only Frank Zappa is comparable. Because Prince's oeuvre includes a great deal of funk, there are certainly a lot of songs with only a few chords or a repetitive bass groove -- but he often does some wild and brilliant stuff over the top. Among his most well-known work, The Lovesexy album comes to mind as a good example. But he can also be a magnificent songcraftsmen when he wants to be. If you figured out Condition Of The Heart in one listen, you've got better ears than anyone I've ever known or worked with, which includes some famous Hollywood composers.

I think Prnce is sometimes underestimated because he puts the simplistic and sophisticated side-by-side. Even a ridiculously simple rock tune like U Got The Look has a remarkable, contrapuntal coda that wouldn't be out of place on an ambitious prog-rock-fusion album. Some of his vocal harmonies are astounding. He is also vastly underestimated as a pianist (I prefer his piano playing to his guitar playing actually). I don't know too many artists in the pop sphere who could pull off the second half of U're Gonna C Me on the One Nite Alone piano album.

Agreed.

leonche64 said:

PlusSign said:

I've been a professional musician myself for 40 years and I strongly disagree. It's true enough perhaps for the hits, but digging down into the details of Prince's arrangements, I find his work endlessly fascinating. Among musicians who have had pop chart success, probably only Frank Zappa is comparable. Because Prince's oeuvre includes a great deal of funk, there are certainly a lot of songs with only a few chords or a repetitive bass groove -- but he often does some wild and brilliant stuff over the top. Among his most well-known work, The Lovesexy album comes to mind as a good example. But he can also be a magnificent songcraftsmen when he wants to be. If you figured out Condition Of The Heart in one listen, you've got better ears than anyone I've ever known or worked with, which includes some famous Hollywood composers.

I think Prnce is sometimes underestimated because he puts the simplistic and sophisticated side-by-side. Even a ridiculously simple rock tune like U Got The Look has a remarkable, contrapuntal coda that wouldn't be out of place on an ambitious prog-rock-fusion album. Some of his vocal harmonies are astounding. He is also vastly underestimated as a pianist (I prefer his piano playing to his guitar playing actually). I don't know too many artists in the pop sphere who could pull off the second half of U're Gonna C Me on the One Nite Alone piano album.

See my last post for further expansion. Lovesexy came out close to 30 years ago, anything on that album can not be considered new. But it does fit the same sound, which I also talked about.

Well, I was replying to the bit I quoted where you said "never" and "always" but perhaps I shouldn't have taken that literally. If you meant his post-80s work, then fine, although I still disagree. He hasn't done anything in the last five years that's grabbed me, but there's an enormous amount that I admire from his 90s and early 2000s output. We obviously have a very different sense of aesthetic, as basically I take the opposite view to your statement. I think he's a mediocre lyricist. Clever? Well he's occasionally witty, but judged against great lyricists I don't feel he even rates a mention. Musically, it is certainly not exclusively about his melodies for me. Yes he is a great melodist and I love many of them, but I don't think he quite ranks with The Beatles, Tori Amos, Queen et al. It is in fact Prince's harmonic sensibilities, musicianship and arrangements that imho constitute his greatest artistic (as opposed to commercial) achievements.

PlusSign said:

leonche64 said:

See my last post for further expansion. Lovesexy came out close to 30 years ago, anything on that album can not be considered new. But it does fit the same sound, which I also talked about.

Well, I was replying to the bit I quoted where you said "never" and "always" but perhaps I shouldn't have taken that literally. If you meant his post-80s work, then fine, although I still disagree. He hasn't done anything in the last five years that's grabbed me, but there's an enormous amount I admire from his 90s and early 2000s output. We obviously have a very different sense of aesthetic. I don't rate him as a lyricist at all, and although I do love many of his melodies I don't think that's where his absolute greatness lies. For me it is most definitely about his harmonic sensibilities, musicianship and arrangements.

PlusSign said:

PlusSign said:

Well, I was replying to the bit I quoted where you said "never" and "always" but perhaps I shouldn't have taken that literally. If you meant his post-80s work, then fine, although I still disagree. He hasn't done anything in the last five years that's grabbed me, but there's an enormous amount I admire from his 90s and early 2000s output. We obviously have a very different sense of aesthetic. I don't rate him as a lyricist at all, and although I do love many of his melodies I don't think that's where his absolute greatness lies. For me it is most definitely about his harmonic sensibilities, musicianship and arrangements.

We are talking about two completely different things here, but that is fine. I do not disagree with anything you have said.

toejam said:

duccichucka said:

One of the reasons why Prince has hit a brick wall is because he does not know music theory.

.
It all comes down to what one means by "knowing music theory".

He may not have all the technical language down, but he clearly knows all his chords with extensions. I am sure if one asked him to play a G aeolian with an added major 3 he could do it. Listen to his piano playing on One Nite Alone. Sure, he has a preference for stock major/minor chords and doesn't venture too far out, but he isn't unaware of more complex stuff either. I think it's more than him just having "a good ear". He knows his stuff but probably has his own way of understanding it. We also know how much Prince loves to play the 'mysteriouso reclusive genius' role, so he's not going to give away too easily what's in his deck. I'm sure he couldn't tell us the range of a baritone sax or whether it's a concert-pitch, Bb or Eb instrument, but that's not relevant to him. He would play it on a guitar and tell the bari player to work it out.

.

[Edited 1/1/15 0:14am]

There is no way Prince would be able to play a G Aeolian chord with any extension if it was
asked of him. He may use them inadvertently whilst composing/playing, but I don't think
he has the knowledge to know that you raise the G Aeolian third (Bb) to B natural per the
request. I believe you when you ask me to listen to his piano playing that he's some musical
appreciation for and ability/knowledge to play outside your basic harmonic approach in pop.
But this is because of his ear, and not because he studied harmony and chordal construction.

I believe that Prince knows rudimentary chords (the stock major/minor chords you mentioned),
and maybe even some modes. But either he clearly does not understand the science of western
music, or, he does know his music theory, but has no interest in "saying" anything musically that
he's never said.

So, in addition to having a great ear, and some basic knowledge, he's been able to handle him-
self within a pop context rather well! Music theory doesn't really involve knowing the range of
a baritone sax. It is, however, knowing the musical relationships between notes, keys, modes,
progressions, etc. It is knowing harmony for sure, too!

duccichucka said:

toejam said:

.
It all comes down to what one means by "knowing music theory".

He may not have all the technical language down, but he clearly knows all his chords with extensions. I am sure if one asked him to play a G aeolian with an added major 3 he could do it. Listen to his piano playing on One Nite Alone. Sure, he has a preference for stock major/minor chords and doesn't venture too far out, but he isn't unaware of more complex stuff either. I think it's more than him just having "a good ear". He knows his stuff but probably has his own way of understanding it. We also know how much Prince loves to play the 'mysteriouso reclusive genius' role, so he's not going to give away too easily what's in his deck. I'm sure he couldn't tell us the range of a baritone sax or whether it's a concert-pitch, Bb or Eb instrument, but that's not relevant to him. He would play it on a guitar and tell the bari player to work it out.

.

[Edited 1/1/15 0:14am]

There is no way Prince would be able to play a G Aeolian chord with any extension if it was
asked of him. He may use them inadvertently whilst composing/playing, but I don't think
he has the knowledge to know that you raise the G Aeolian third (Bb) to B natural per the
request. I believe you when you ask me to listen to his piano playing that he's some musical
appreciation for and ability/knowledge to play outside your basic harmonic approach in pop.
But this is because of his ear, and not because he studied harmony and chordal construction.

I believe that Prince knows rudimentary chords (the stock major/minor chords you mentioned),
and maybe even some modes. But either he clearly does not understand the science of western
music, or, he does know his music theory, but has no interest in "saying" anything musically that
he's never said.

So, in addition to having a great ear, and some basic knowledge, he's been able to handle him-
self within a pop context rather well! Music theory doesn't really involve knowing the range of
a baritone sax. It is, however, knowing the musical relationships between notes, keys, modes,
progressions, etc. It is knowing harmony for sure, too!

This is guess work to the maximum. Just because he has not recorded it, does not mean that he can't play it. His job is pop music. That is what he provides for consumption. It is the height of arrogance to think that because one has not personally born witness to something, it does not exist. Solipsism creeps up when unexpected, so be vigil.

leonche64 said:

duccichucka said:

There is no way Prince would be able to play a G Aeolian chord with any extension if it was
asked of him. He may use them inadvertently whilst composing/playing, but I don't think
he has the knowledge to know that you raise the G Aeolian third (Bb) to B natural per the
request. I believe you when you ask me to listen to his piano playing that he's some musical
appreciation for and ability/knowledge to play outside your basic harmonic approach in pop.
But this is because of his ear, and not because he studied harmony and chordal construction.

I believe that Prince knows rudimentary chords (the stock major/minor chords you mentioned),
and maybe even some modes. But either he clearly does not understand the science of western
music, or, he does know his music theory, but has no interest in "saying" anything musically that
he's never said.

So, in addition to having a great ear, and some basic knowledge, he's been able to handle him-
self within a pop context rather well! Music theory doesn't really involve knowing the range of
a baritone sax. It is, however, knowing the musical relationships between notes, keys, modes,
progressions, etc. It is knowing harmony for sure, too!

This is guess work to the maximum. Just because he has not recorded it, does not mean that he can't play it. His job is pop music. That is what he provides for consumption. It is the height of arrogance to think that because one has not personally born witness to something, it does not exist. Solipsism creeps up when unexpected, so be vigil.

Oh shut up. I'm going by what Prince has said in interviews in the past about his own musical

training and upbringing. And if you read my post correctly, you'll see that both Toejam and I

acknowledge that Prince can play a G Aeolian chord with a major third added onto it; my
contention is that he does not know the theory behind what he's played. It is also my contention
that if he did study music theory, he would have more to say musically. And just because the
context is pop does not mean music theory doesn't have a much to do - ALL music is grounded
in theory, so don't reductionistically tell me "his job is pop music" as if that absolves one from
learning it.

You play that smart ass role with someone else, dude; not with me.

duccichucka said:

leonche64 said:

This is guess work to the maximum. Just because he has not recorded it, does not mean that he can't play it. His job is pop music. That is what he provides for consumption. It is the height of arrogance to think that because one has not personally born witness to something, it does not exist. Solipsism creeps up when unexpected, so be vigil.

Oh shut up. I'm going by what Prince has said in interviews in the past about his own musical

training and upbringing. And if you read my post correctly, you'll see that both Toejam and I

acknowledge that Prince can play a G Aeolian chord with a major third added onto it; my
contention is that he does not know the theory behind what he's played. It is also my contention
that if he did study music theory, he would have more to say musically. And just because the
context is pop does not mean music theory doesn't have a much to do - ALL music is grounded
in theory, so don't reductionistically tell me "his job is pop music" as if that absolves one from
learning it.

You play that smart ass role with someone else, dude; not with me.

Oh my, how do I respond to this? Seems I have struck a pretentious nerve. Once again you seem to think you know the working of an individuals mind and abilities. All you have is what has been put out for public consumption, same as everyone else. You can suppose and theorize all you want, but the fact remains that you are just guessing as I said. There is a multitude of classically trained musicians making a living in pop music. They are not writing classical music to be released as a download. That is not what they are paid for, nor what the public wants. There is an infinite amount of expert "musical theorist" that have not said a fraction of what Prince has said musically, nor had any impact whatsoever upon any musical landscape. To say he would have more to say musically if he "played it this way" misses the entire point of his career. If you think it allows you to have some type of parity or musical superiority in your mind, you are mistaken.

Now, that is a mighty fine looking high horse you have, but you might want to hop off for a while and give him a rest.

Man sometimes the things said on this forum about Prince is so out of left field that I don't really understand where this shit comes from. Music theory is basic fundementals. Pitch, form, harmony, tonal scales, consonants, dissonants, rhythm and mixing it all together. So anyone claiming that Prince has no working knowledge of THE BASICS of music is either grasping for an argument or completely lacking any knowledge of music or Prince music because Prince attacked every aspect of music theory in his songs and sometimes redefined it and often toyed with it. There is no one that will ever say that Prince's chord progressions or melody structure doesn't make sense. What song is a jumbled mess? Put it out there, what songs are you calling Prince out on based on poor music theory? Is every song in the same key? NO! As far as Prince reading music, lucky for me that I attend a church and learned from two musicians that know Prince associates very well. Producer/Organist Stanley Brown, who worked with Morris Day and drummer Jeff Davis who is tight with Former Prince drummer Michael Bland. After much embarrassing laughter and prodding they reached out to Morris and Bland and only Bland has responded so far and his first response was......and I quote 'LOL.' So from an actual band member I can tell you that sometimes they'd come in and have sheet music written by Prince to record and sometimes he'd play the song on piano or guitar and let the band flesh it out together. Often Prince would change the tones, pitches, rhythms on the fly of various instuments{music theory in practice}. The same would apply to the NPG horn section, which would either have parts already written for them or Prince would let Dave and Kathy Jensen for the most part create parts. The point here is Prince wrote parts for different instruments and therefore would know how to read music. Now we know he didn't start out knowing how to read music but when you play music for a living for multiple decades you're bound to learn. BTW when I asked Stanley and Jeff about this they looked at me like I was stupid because I play piano and am a longtime musician and should know better. I think that people attribute hit records and albums sales to actual knowledge of music. Because Prince hasn't written another Purple Rain doesn't mean his talent of playing and composing has regressed, it means his ear for popular music has regressed. I really don't know how people com up with this stuff, if your "knowledge' of 'music theory' surpasses Prince on guitar then you'd better be the fucking man somewhere and how about putting yourself out there for all to see and judge for ourselves. Link me to a youtube or a soundcloud of your songs. Put Prince to shame by comparing the lack of 'music theory' in Prince's songs to the brilliance in yours. Show and prove!

Polo1026 said:

Man sometimes the things said on this forum about Prince is so out of left field that I don't really understand where this shit comes from. Music theory is basic fundementals. Pitch, form, harmony, tonal scales, consonants, dissonants, rhythm and mixing it all together. So anyone claiming that Prince has no working knowledge of THE BASICS of music is either grasping for an argument or completely lacking any knowledge of music or Prince music because Prince attacked every aspect of music theory in his songs and sometimes redefined it and often toyed with it. There is no one that will ever say that Prince's chord progressions or melody structure doesn't make sense. What song is a jumbled mess? Put it out there, what songs are you calling Prince out on based on poor music theory? Is every song in the same key? NO! As far as Prince reading music, lucky for me that I attend a church and learned from two musicians that know Prince associates very well. Producer/Organist Stanley Brown, who worked with Morris Day and drummer Jeff Davis who is tight with Former Prince drummer Michael Bland. After much embarrassing laughter and prodding they reached out to Morris and Bland and only Bland has responded so far and his first response was......and I quote 'LOL.' So from an actual band member I can tell you that sometimes they'd come in and have sheet music written by Prince to record and sometimes he'd play the song on piano or guitar and let the band flesh it out together. Often Prince would change the tones, pitches, rhythms on the fly of various instuments{music theory in practice}. The same would apply to the NPG horn section, which would either have parts already written for them or Prince would let Dave and Kathy Jensen for the most part create parts. The point here is Prince wrote parts for different instruments and therefore would know how to read music. Now we know he didn't start out knowing how to read music but when you play music for a living for multiple decades you're bound to learn. BTW when I asked Stanley and Jeff about this they looked at me like I was stupid because I play piano and am a longtime musician and should know better. I think that people attribute hit records and albums sales to actual knowledge of music. Because Prince hasn't written another Purple Rain doesn't mean his talent of playing and composing has regressed, it means his ear for popular music has regressed. I really don't know how people com up with this stuff, if your "knowledge' of 'music theory' surpasses Prince on guitar then you'd better be the fucking man somewhere and how about putting yourself out there for all to see and judge for ourselves. Link me to a youtube or a soundcloud of your songs. Put Prince to shame by comparing the lack of 'music theory' in Prince's songs to the brilliance in yours. Show and prove!

Why on Earth would come in here and post some rational comments? This place has lost all rational thinking when it comes 2 Prince.

Even if he couldn't read music is 1977/8 it is completely assine 2 think he hasn't learned a damn thing in 30 plus years.

Prince probably reads this stuff and has a good LAUGH every single time. In the Key of C.

Graycap23 said:

Polo1026 said:

Man sometimes the things said on this forum about Prince is so out of left field that I don't really understand where this shit comes from. Music theory is basic fundementals. Pitch, form, harmony, tonal scales, consonants, dissonants, rhythm and mixing it all together. So anyone claiming that Prince has no working knowledge of THE BASICS of music is either grasping for an argument or completely lacking any knowledge of music or Prince music because Prince attacked every aspect of music theory in his songs and sometimes redefined it and often toyed with it. There is no one that will ever say that Prince's chord progressions or melody structure doesn't make sense. What song is a jumbled mess? Put it out there, what songs are you calling Prince out on based on poor music theory? Is every song in the same key? NO! As far as Prince reading music, lucky for me that I attend a church and learned from two musicians that know Prince associates very well. Producer/Organist Stanley Brown, who worked with Morris Day and drummer Jeff Davis who is tight with Former Prince drummer Michael Bland. After much embarrassing laughter and prodding they reached out to Morris and Bland and only Bland has responded so far and his first response was......and I quote 'LOL.' So from an actual band member I can tell you that sometimes they'd come in and have sheet music written by Prince to record and sometimes he'd play the song on piano or guitar and let the band flesh it out together. Often Prince would change the tones, pitches, rhythms on the fly of various instuments{music theory in practice}. The same would apply to the NPG horn section, which would either have parts already written for them or Prince would let Dave and Kathy Jensen for the most part create parts. The point here is Prince wrote parts for different instruments and therefore would know how to read music. Now we know he didn't start out knowing how to read music but when you play music for a living for multiple decades you're bound to learn. BTW when I asked Stanley and Jeff about this they looked at me like I was stupid because I play piano and am a longtime musician and should know better. I think that people attribute hit records and albums sales to actual knowledge of music. Because Prince hasn't written another Purple Rain doesn't mean his talent of playing and composing has regressed, it means his ear for popular music has regressed. I really don't know how people com up with this stuff, if your "knowledge' of 'music theory' surpasses Prince on guitar then you'd better be the fucking man somewhere and how about putting yourself out there for all to see and judge for ourselves. Link me to a youtube or a soundcloud of your songs. Put Prince to shame by comparing the lack of 'music theory' in Prince's songs to the brilliance in yours. Show and prove!

Why on Earth would come in here and post some rational comments? This place has lost all rational thinking when it comes 2 Prince.

Even if he couldn't read music is 1977/8 it is completely assine 2 think he hasn't learned a damn thing in 30 plus years.

Prince probably reads this stuff and has a good LAUGH every single time. In the Key of C.

This sums up the whole thread! Lock it up and close it.

leonche64 said:

duccichucka said:

Oh shut up. I'm going by what Prince has said in interviews in the past about his own musical

training and upbringing. And if you read my post correctly, you'll see that both Toejam and I

acknowledge that Prince can play a G Aeolian chord with a major third added onto it; my
contention is that he does not know the theory behind what he's played. It is also my contention
that if he did study music theory, he would have more to say musically. And just because the
context is pop does not mean music theory doesn't have a much to do - ALL music is grounded
in theory, so don't reductionistically tell me "his job is pop music" as if that absolves one from
learning it.

You play that smart ass role with someone else, dude; not with me.

Oh my, how do I respond to this? Seems I have struck a pretentious nerve. Once again you seem to think you know the working of an individuals mind and abilities. All you have is what has been put out for public consumption, same as everyone else. You can suppose and theorize all you want, but the fact remains that you are just guessing as I said. There is a multitude of classically trained musicians making a living in pop music. They are not writing classical music to be released as a download. That is not what they are paid for, nor what the public wants. There is an infinite amount of expert "musical theorist" that have not said a fraction of what Prince has said musically, nor had any impact whatsoever upon any musical landscape. To say he would have more to say musically if he "played it this way" misses the entire point of his career. If you think it allows you to have some type of parity or musical superiority in your mind, you are mistaken.

Now, that is a mighty fine looking high horse you have, but you might want to hop off for a while and give him a rest.

But of course you struck a nerve, Leon, for whoever told you that I suffer fools gladly was lying
to you.

I'm going by what Prince has said in interviews. And you continue to miss my point judging by
the content of your post. Of course all I have is what's "public consumption" - Prince has said
in interviews that he doesn't know how to read music. You say there are classically trained
musicians working in pop - what is that in response to? I never said the two were mutually
exclusive. You guess that there are an infinite amount of expert musical theorists who have not
said anything that Prince has said. Okay, now whose the one guessing?! But even if I grant you
the veracity of this argument, so the fuck what? It still does not speak to the point I'm making:
if you learn music theory, that will enable to you to carry on musically once your ear has
uttered everything it could possibly say as a musician if you haven't learned theory.

Furthermore, I never said Prince had to "play it this way." Never did I say Prince had to learn
jazz or classical music. I never said there was a "wrong" way to doing music or a "right" way to
doing music. I simply said if Prince wants to widen his musical vocabulary, he should learn
music theory, similar to jazz musicians and classical composers/musicians who appear to age
better than pop musicians. But who are these infinite musical theorists that have not said a
fraction of what Prince has said that you speak of? What are their names? What has Prince said
musically that hasn't been said before? Does he use otherworldly harmonic inventions that the
West has never heard? And just because one is a music theorist does not mean one has to be a
composer or songwriter in order to even utter something musically. Your argument here ist nicht
so gut.

And finally, no, I don't think there is a superior music. But I think there is a more sophisticated
type of music that involves the learnedness of classical/jazz training that pop music does not
subsist upon. This does not mean that pop music can't be sophisticated. It just means that good
pop music doesn't necessarily have to be the result of a musical theorist. But good classical
music and jazz music requires some type of music theory. All I'm saying is that someone with
Prince's talent could stand to learn how to read music and learn some theory in an effort to stop
rehashing old ideas. But you're right, Leon. My assumption could be misplaced because maybe
Prince doesn't want to grow as a musician. Maybe he's content with his present amount of musical
knowledge and has deemed it more than necessary in order to continue to put out albums that
absolutely suck and are cringe-worthy when compared to what he released from 1982 - 1987.

By the way, I'm staying on my high horse, otherwise who's gonna be the one to let people know
when their posts are retardo? Sigh, it's my duty, Leon; it's my duty.

I can read music upside down and sideways, but can't compose anything interesting.

Prince almost certainly reads music, but he doesn't compose or perform with music sheets -- he memorizes and records, then he knows it by heart. Maybe he needs to listen to songs when he has not performed them in a while, but for a guy as talented as this music sheets would just slow things down.

In regards to the rather bitter discussion above, Prince almost certainly was required to learn how to read music in high school, no matter what he said in interviews.

Being able to tell C from F on music sheets and actually being very skilled at reading a full score with different keys are two things. Most likely, he once could read a a piano socre in two keys at some point but had little use for it and so he did not maintain or develop that skill. I think he has basic music theory knowledge, he knows why chords sound that way and sometimes this way, but he just didn't develop this knowledge much, there was no reason for him to take counterpoint/orchestration, he was interested in being a rock star abd already could play be ear from the time he was a toddler.

It may be just my impression, but many Jazz musicians (such as Coltrane, Don Cherry, Pharoah Sanders, Ornette Coleman) developed and made progression by getting rid of their classical trained background. They reduced their sound to the essentials and combined them with african and asian styles of music. You might say: You have to know exactly (in theory) what to add and what to leave out to make a song structure sound unique and new. I might answer: No. You can just feel it. And for me Prince did that. And he still does. But still it feels like you say, duccichucka: best in 86-88. I explain that with MY lack of developping on from that point. I still see the continuing progression (here: reducing the Funk) from Sign O to Black Sweat. And I like the development of Prince's Rock output especially on plec. But again: looking at 2014 and regarding NEW sounds and attitudes by "old" artists, Neneh Cherry's Blanc Project made it for me.

And as far as I know Neneh has no music theory background either. Less than P, I would suppose. My point: You don't need musical theory to create new, brilliant music when you're 50 and over.

TrevorAyer said:

prince can likely read music .. even before PR movie .. how could he not .. probably cant play perfect on sight for the first time like someone classically trained, but can certainly figure out what notes are what, memorize them and then play fluidly

however .. what is most likely is that the horn players write most of it .. he may have a simple melody they work off of or actually come up with the whole part themselves

p fans tend to credit prince with writing everything .. which is a joke .. at this point prince barely even writes lyrics that he sings, let alone any of the music

Trevor, he cannot read music at all, few recording artists can with the exceptions being Eddie Van Halen and Billy Joel to my knowledge. You must also remember that reading the note is only one part of it, you have to simultaneously read the speed of the passage, it's timing and its mood, all in an instant. Believe me, he cannot do this, but he doesn't need to in the world of songwriting. He's just practised quite a lot over his career, but you still never see him jam with accomplished musicians and if he doe, it's always his music. I think he'd come up short trying to jam with others.

Prince cannot read music - end of story.

He has most definitely hit a brickwall since he shot his load with all the unrealeased music from 84-87. He truly does revisit the same old styles ad infinitum because he doesn't know how to expand his abilities. Some of you fans on this site are obseessed with him in an unhealthy way. He is a very gifted musician but he is no way one of the greatest guitarists ever. Come on, is he better or equal to Edward Van Halen? Could he even attempt to play anything EVH composed on the early VH albums? NO. But he's a good guitarist and composer. He should listen to classical music for one, and there are poeple out there who run circles round him when it comes to innovation, David Byrne and David Bowie come to mind, and both are able to utilie those forms within the confines of pop/rock song formats. Bowie is the real genius here, frankly, and the fact that Prince can play several instruments well should make him feel shameful in comparison to Bowie's anthology. We all agree his quality has stagnated and that is because he plays on all the tracks, thus showing how limited he is. He needs to let a band play on his records for a better feel.Since he's no virtuoso he's never going to make great recordplaying everything himself. But I guess his greatest stumbling block is the desire to remain relavant and be a superstar. Nobody buys his records, nobody under the age of 40 cares, nobody cares about his outfits or hairstyles - only he does. He stills wants to be the belle of the ball yet he's nearly 60, time to act your age not your..... until then he'll just release one crap disc after another and live off the hype of his unreleased material and once great live shows. Every few years he gets a break where he's in the press then disappears again. Time for the overdue elder statesman mode, the music biz is dead anyway but he acts like it's still the 80's, just like we wish his quality was.

HenkL said:

And as far as I know Neneh has no music theory background either. Less than P, I would suppose. My point: You don't need musical theory to create new, brilliant music when you're 50 and over.

There is no jazz composer or classical composer who wrote anything meaningful to me and is
considered a part of the western canon that didn't have a grasp of music theory.

Sorry, but it's true.

HenkL said:

It may be just my impression, but many Jazz musicians (such as Coltrane, Don Cherry, Pharoah Sanders, Ornette Coleman) developed and made progression by getting rid of their classical trained background. They reduced their sound to the essentials and combined them with african and asian styles of music. You might say: You have to know exactly (in theory) what to add and what to leave out to make a song structure sound unique and new. I might answer: No. You can just feel it. And for me Prince did that. And he still does. But still it feels like you say, duccichucka: best in 86-88. I explain that with MY lack of developping on from that point. I still see the continuing progression (here: reducing the Funk) from Sign O to Black Sweat. And I like the development of Prince's Rock output especially on plec. But again: looking at 2014 and regarding NEW sounds and attitudes by "old" artists, Neneh Cherry's Blanc Project made it for me.

You're missing my point, like everyone else in this thread seems to be doing.

Never did I say in this thread that in order to create meaningful, lasting, beautiful music that one
has to be classically trained. I never said that - so y'all need to stop writing posts with the
notion that is the claim I'm making.

My claim is that composers and musicians who have a grasp of music theory, specifically classical
composers and jazz musicians, tend to create pieces of music that get better as they age; this is
in contrast to pop musicians, who are mostly devoid of a comparable musical education, and tend
to rehash and revisit the same old ideas at a clip much more significant than their classical and
jazz counterparts.

And the reason why you're talking about Neneh Cherry, as opposed to her father, who definitely

knew music theory, I have no earthly idea! Don Cherry is just another example of how a
musician who knows theory can stretch genre boundaries in order to bend their musical imagi-
nation towards the unheard.

Aerogram said:

In regards to the rather bitter discussion above, Prince almost certainly was required to learn how to read music in high school, no matter what he said in interviews.

Being able to tell C from F on music sheets and actually being very skilled at reading a full score with different keys are two things. Most likely, he once could read a a piano socre in two keys at some point but had little use for it and so he did not maintain or develop that skill. I think he has basic music theory knowledge, he knows why chords sound that way and sometimes this way, but he just didn't develop this knowledge much, there was no reason for him to take counterpoint/orchestration, he was interested in being a rock star abd already could play be ear from the time he was a toddler.

I agree with you, Aero.

Prince wanted to be a pop star. He didn't want to be a jazzer or classical musicians/composer. In
that particular context, one does not need to have a supreme grasp of music theory, only a
working grasp is sufficient. He knows just enough (with a superb ear and level of musicianship) to
create Dirty Mind, 1999, Purple Rain, and Parade (these are the only required Prince albums, in
my opinion).

How-evah, if that pop musician wants to break out and write some new shit without repeating the
same old ideas he had twenty, thirty years ago, a good idea would be to get in the woodshed and
learn some more theory so that your ear hears new sounds and your knowledge of the relation-
ships between notes, keys, modes, scales, chords, progressions, harmony, counter-point, etc.

increases!

ashynevermind said:

Prince cannot read music - end of story.

He has most definitely hit a brickwall since he shot his load with all the unrealeased music from 84-87. He truly does revisit the same old styles ad infinitum because he doesn't know how to expand his abilities. Some of you fans on this site are obseessed with him in an unhealthy way. He is a very gifted musician but he is no way one of the greatest guitarists ever. Come on, is he better or equal to Edward Van Halen? Could he even attempt to play anything EVH composed on the early VH albums? NO. But he's a good guitarist and composer. He should listen to classical music for one, and there are poeple out there who run circles round him when it comes to innovation, David Byrne and David Bowie come to mind, and both are able to utilie those forms within the confines of pop/rock song formats. Bowie is the real genius here, frankly, and the fact that Prince can play several instruments well should make him feel shameful in comparison to Bowie's anthology. We all agree his quality has stagnated and that is because he plays on all the tracks, thus showing how limited he is. He needs to let a band play on his records for a better feel.Since he's no virtuoso he's never going to make great recordplaying everything himself. But I guess his greatest stumbling block is the desire to remain relavant and be a superstar. Nobody buys his records, nobody under the age of 40 cares, nobody cares about his outfits or hairstyles - only he does. He stills wants to be the belle of the ball yet he's nearly 60, time to act your age not your..... until then he'll just release one crap disc after another and live off the hype of his unreleased material and once great live shows. Every few years he gets a break where he's in the press then disappears again. Time for the overdue elder statesman mode, the music biz is dead anyway but he acts like it's still the 80's, just like we wish his quality was.

Sorry, very unlikely he passed music in high school without being able to read music sheets at a basic level. It's not rocket science to just know how to read music in at least one key, but let's just say he was already highly skilled at doing things by ear, did not feel a need to be very versed in music theory or score reading.

You're attempting to connect this lack of skill with your perceived notion that he would need more knowledge to go further beyond those ideas you say he "shot his load" with.

There's a pronounced tendency on this site to talk down about Prince and his skills, to dismiss his accomplisments and artistry.

Aerogram said:

ashynevermind said:

Prince cannot read music - end of story.

He has most definitely hit a brickwall since he shot his load with all the unrealeased music from 84-87. He truly does revisit the same old styles ad infinitum because he doesn't know how to expand his abilities. Some of you fans on this site are obseessed with him in an unhealthy way. He is a very gifted musician but he is no way one of the greatest guitarists ever. Come on, is he better or equal to Edward Van Halen? Could he even attempt to play anything EVH composed on the early VH albums? NO. But he's a good guitarist and composer. He should listen to classical music for one, and there are poeple out there who run circles round him when it comes to innovation, David Byrne and David Bowie come to mind, and both are able to utilie those forms within the confines of pop/rock song formats. Bowie is the real genius here, frankly, and the fact that Prince can play several instruments well should make him feel shameful in comparison to Bowie's anthology. We all agree his quality has stagnated and that is because he plays on all the tracks, thus showing how limited he is. He needs to let a band play on his records for a better feel.Since he's no virtuoso he's never going to make great recordplaying everything himself. But I guess his greatest stumbling block is the desire to remain relavant and be a superstar. Nobody buys his records, nobody under the age of 40 cares, nobody cares about his outfits or hairstyles - only he does. He stills wants to be the belle of the ball yet he's nearly 60, time to act your age not your..... until then he'll just release one crap disc after another and live off the hype of his unreleased material and once great live shows. Every few years he gets a break where he's in the press then disappears again. Time for the overdue elder statesman mode, the music biz is dead anyway but he acts like it's still the 80's, just like we wish his quality was.

Sorry, very unlikely he passed music in high school without being able to read music sheets at a basic level. It's not rocket science to just know how to read music in at least one key, but let's just say he was already highly skilled at doing things by ear, did not feel a need to be very versed in music theory or score reading.

You're attempting to connect this lack of skill with your perceived notion that he would need more knowledge to go further beyond those ideas you say he "shot his load" with.

There's a pronounced tendency on this site to talk down about Prince and his skills, to dismiss his accomplisments and artistry.

I should add that IF brand new, innovative rock/pop/funk/soul/EDM/younameit music was written by people with a full knowledge of music theory, top students from conservatories, this would be well-known and cekebrated fact. It isn't, most famous artists did not go that route and the new ones are not coming from that path, so any notion that Prince is somehow stuck creatuvekt because he didn't learn music formally enough is very dubious. There were some "progressive rock" bands that went that route and that's when the whole punk "three chords" movement erupted. That tells you everything you need to know about why great pop/rock/soul musicians don't become greater if they have more formal music knowledge.

ashynevermind said:

He has most definitely hit a brickwall since he shot his load with all the unrealeased music from 84-87. He truly does revisit the same old styles ad infinitum because he doesn't know how to expand his abilities. Some of you fans on this site are obseessed with him in an unhealthy way. He is a very gifted musician...{but}We all agree his quality has stagnated...

Ashy, I agree with these parts of your post.

The push back I'm getting in this thread is from stans wanting to defend Prince's musical legacy
and abilities. I'm the biggest Prince fan in the world. Like I said, for about five years in the 80s,
he was doing only what Paul McCartney could do when he was with the Beatles: writing,
producing, playing, singing, and arranging as if possessed by Euterpe.

But he's hit a brick wall because he's not expanded his musical vocabulary. He truly does revisit
the same pop formulas over and over again. Sure, he stretched out a bit with N.E.W.S. But he
doesn't have the chops to play straight jazz; and he doesn't have the musical wherewithal to
stretch pass what he knows innately in order to write something entirely different.

He's fucking boring the shit outta me. And he's boring me because he hasn't said anything new
since 1987! He's relaxing on a legacy he created thirty years ago; but I'm no stan. I want new
art. Not Art Official Age, or whatever the fuck.

Again, Miles Davis the perfect example of a gifted musician whose knowledge of music theory,
in addition to his innate talent, work ethic and musical imagination played a part in helping him
to be a major player at the advent of four modes of jazz.