YAY!!!!! Just in time! a monthly ''prince is done'' thread. Where is the monthly ''Prince is the best musician in history'' thread? I'M WAITING

Brilliantly said!

warning2all said:

He's a better musician and vocalist than ever, he's still a fine live act---but the songwriting generally isn't there. "Clouds" is at the level of "Strange Relationship"---that song wasn't the best off SOTT, but it was good. "Clouds" is just "good", but serves as the best song on AOA. AOA has no "If I Was Your Girlfriend"/"U Got The Look"/"I Could Never Take The Place of Your Man"/"Sign o The Times"/or "Housequake" level songs on it. Is he "done"? No. But best ideas have been done. We're in his " Universal James" phase now, not his "The Payback " phase.

Gunsnhalen said:

YAY!!!!! Just in time! a monthly ''prince is done'' thread. Where is the monthly ''Prince is the best musician in history'' thread? I'M WAITING

We're about due a "why is everyone here so mean about Prince " thread tbh

Well...Prince haven't done a song with Justin Bieber, so that's a major plus for P. And that's all that really matters. *walks away with a manly strut*

I wonder why leaks from the early 80s gets people on this site more worked up than the stuff he's putting out now?

NouveauDance said:

laurarichardson said:

Not when it is bullshit.

But then why are y..... Nah, too easy.

Ok Guys. Thanks for the interesting discussion. Let me try to respond to each substantive point in turn and see if that generates some more constructive discussion.

1.Nouveaudance I love me some Prince Borg! They are so cute. I used to be exactly the same, taking any criticism of Prince as if it was aimed at me and my worth as a human being. I hope they can find it in their hearts to forgive me and understand that the comments are directed at a musician they dont know personally and it has nothing to do with them.

2. On my "done" comment. I tried to be clear by what I meant but let me state it again. It doesnt mean he cant write dance sing or play well or at times with real flashes of brilliance. It is meant exclusively for the early 90s (or 80s) Prince fans like me who were waiting for the next Dirty Mind, 1999, Purple Rain, Sign of the Times, Lovesexy in the 1990s and it never came. We should be "done" waiting by now. I am sure I am not the first to say this and judging by some of the responses it is not terribly controversial.

1725stop , 100degrees willaimb610 I partially agree but what do you think of my thesis?

1725stop lets agree to disagree on the songs!

willaimb610 I dont have a lack of enthusiasm for most of the tracks I listed. On the contrary I think there are classic, brilliant songs within them waiting to get out. Its great that you like 'em but do you think they are as good as they could be? I don't.

3. No 90s album was equal parts creative, commercial and innovative that hangs together beautifully. Where are the 90s equals to Housequake, Starfish and Coffee, Dorothy Parker or Adore on a single album? They dont exist. TGE does not have that nor any 90s album but my thesis is that within his 90s output are the raw materials for such an album....and I picked a bunch of songs that if they could be reworked I think could be a part of that "uber" album.

4. Noodled I dont rate sales - its more about creative brilliance.

5. Puretsexy I agree partially that we are spoiled but we could have been a whole lot more with better editing, focus and discipline in the 90s and without a record label name change crisis...do you agree?

6.therat maybe it has something to do with the entire point of this thread?

[Edited 11/20/14 8:14am]

[Edited 11/20/14 9:01am]

[Edited 11/20/14 9:04am]

Noodled24 said:

Buttox said:

Noodledi was not denigrating his career in the 90s. There is lots there to enjoy. But id love to hear arguments about how his career and output in the 90s were on par with or exceeded the 80s or even contained one comparable iconic recording. To encourage responses here are three provocative points of view

1. I count 2-4 era defining albums in the 80s...none in the 90s. 2. Ask regular joes to list iconic Prince songs and the 80s list will be much larger than the 90s. 3. Without the 80s Prince would be in the same league as D'angelo or Lenny Kravitz...great artists but not iconic ones.

1) Era defining depends who you are and where you are. Prince only really had 1 huge selling record in the 80s and that was Purple Rain. Other albums sold a few million copies.

2) Again these regular Joes - depends who they are, where they are and what they listen to. The Most Beautiful Girl In the World is easily the song Prince is most recognised for in the UK. I suspect throughout europe too. Hence the reason so many UK concert reviews sound like they had no idea Prince played guitar.

3) You say without "the 80s" but really what you mean is without "Purple Rain" - This was the album that catapulted Prince into the stratosphere. If you imagine for a second that Purple Rain never happened 1999 was a pretty big album but not huge, ATWIAD sold pretty big off the back of PR - without PR you could probably half the sales. Parade wasn't huge, SOTT sold shocking numbers for such an outstanding album... not until the Batman album was he going to sell big numbers.

His first UK #1 album was Lovesexy in 1988 - only 2 years before the end of the decade. I fail to see how someone who's first #1 album didn't happen till the end of the decade can be credited with defining a decade (again I'm speaking from the point of view of someone living in the UK - I understand completely that things were very different in the USA). Batman in 89 also scored him a #1 album and he had plenty of top 10 hit singles in the UK but not so much with the albums.

Moving into the 90's Graffiti Bridge was a #1 album, D&P only managed a #2 position but spent fiftyseven weeks on the charts in a country where the charts are based on sales not airplay. In 1993 the hits 1 and the hits 2 hit the UK top five as well as the bsides triple disc also hitting the top 5 (3 hits cds in the top 5 in the same year!) and "Come" the following year - his final UK #1 album. Singles however were another story and he had a number of top 5, top 10 and top 20 singles right up until Emancipation

His popularity in the USA may have died off towards the end of the 80s but internationally he was bigger than ever.

Well said, Noodle24. A lot of good points made here. Buttox, Although some of the responses might have been harsh, I'd think you'd know after several years on the org, that you're not really encouraging open, and constructive critique with a lede like "Time to Stick a Fork in Prince ...".

dealodelandron said:

Noodled24 said:

1) Era defining depends who you are and where you are. Prince only really had 1 huge selling record in the 80s and that was Purple Rain. Other albums sold a few million copies.

2) Again these regular Joes - depends who they are, where they are and what they listen to. The Most Beautiful Girl In the World is easily the song Prince is most recognised for in the UK. I suspect throughout europe too. Hence the reason so many UK concert reviews sound like they had no idea Prince played guitar.

3) You say without "the 80s" but really what you mean is without "Purple Rain" - This was the album that catapulted Prince into the stratosphere. If you imagine for a second that Purple Rain never happened 1999 was a pretty big album but not huge, ATWIAD sold pretty big off the back of PR - without PR you could probably half the sales. Parade wasn't huge, SOTT sold shocking numbers for such an outstanding album... not until the Batman album was he going to sell big numbers.

His first UK #1 album was Lovesexy in 1988 - only 2 years before the end of the decade. I fail to see how someone who's first #1 album didn't happen till the end of the decade can be credited with defining a decade (again I'm speaking from the point of view of someone living in the UK - I understand completely that things were very different in the USA). Batman in 89 also scored him a #1 album and he had plenty of top 10 hit singles in the UK but not so much with the albums.

Moving into the 90's Graffiti Bridge was a #1 album, D&P only managed a #2 position but spent fiftyseven weeks on the charts in a country where the charts are based on sales not airplay. In 1993 the hits 1 and the hits 2 hit the UK top five as well as the bsides triple disc also hitting the top 5 (3 hits cds in the top 5 in the same year!) and "Come" the following year - his final UK #1 album. Singles however were another story and he had a number of top 5, top 10 and top 20 singles right up until Emancipation

His popularity in the USA may have died off towards the end of the 80s but internationally he was bigger than ever.

Well said, Noodle24. A lot of good points made here. Buttox, Although some of the responses might have been harsh, I'd think you'd know after several years on the org, that you're not really encouraging open, and constructive critique with a lede like "Time to Stick a Fork in Prince ...".

Fair point already made by Nouveaudance but if people bothered to read my whole post.... also, does the other part of the title "so many 90s quasi hits" not give a clue that this is not about mindless Prince bashing and is trying to make nuanced points? I guess people are much more attracted to the negative...the internet tends to do that to people. As some have stated my main point on the "done" comment is a good 10-15 years late at least...I wanted to check if the org had changed and improved with the benefit of time but I think it has gotten worse on some levels. All I need now is to find Bart Van Hemelen lurking in the thread, still hating Prince with an unyielding passion yet unable to move on and let his hate die....

[Edited 11/20/14 9:25am]

how come the people who say he's over ...r the same ones who wont go away

Buttox said:

dealodelandron said:

Well said, Noodle24. A lot of good points made here. Buttox, Although some of the responses might have been harsh, I'd think you'd know after several years on the org, that you're not really encouraging open, and constructive critique with a lede like "Time to Stick a Fork in Prince ...".

Fair point already made by Nouveaudance but if people bothered to read my whole post.... also, does the other part of the title "so many 90s quasi hits" not give a clue that this is not about mindless Prince bashing and is trying to make nuanced points? I guess people are much more attracted to the negative...the internet tends to do that to people. As some have stated my main point on the "done" comment is a good 10-15 years late at least...I wanted to check if the org had changed and improved with the benefit of time but I think it has gotten worse on some levels. All I need now is to find Bart Van Hemelen lurking in the thread, still hating Prince with an unyielding passion yet unable to move on and let his hate die....

[Edited 11/20/14 9:25am]

I read your post, and you do go on to elaborate. I'm just surprised that this comes as a shock when your title seems to be provacative by design. Its bound to prompt different types of responses. You made a choice (conscious or unconscious) to word it the way you did, so you can't really be too shocked that it might put people on the offensive.

Beyond that, I've got several favorites on each P release, but I rarely classify things as 80s, 90s era. I also believe that he still creates songs that reflect a creative brilliance. I've rarely judged his work by albums. Although Prince played a huge part in alienating some of his fan base, the industry also made some conscious efforts to alienate him. So its hard to gauge what kind of impact some of his later work might have had on the masses. For people I knew, it was all or nothing. They were either true fans, or they said "oh, he still makes music?". During his worst years for album sales, the dude was putting on legendary gigs in Europe and showcasing constant new material that always highlighted his genius.

Buttox said:

4. Noodled I dont rate sales - its more about creative brilliance.

Well then how do you define "hit" - if it's personal prefererence then the entire discussion is redundant.

It's just a fact that in the 80's Prince was huge in the states, by the 90's he was huge internationally on a Jackson/Madonna level, by the 00's he'd retreated completely into himself and started to release boring songs with dull music.

Buttox said:

1725stop , 100degrees willaimb610 I partially agree but what do you think of my thesis?

1725stop lets agree to disagree on the songs!

*

I think that, by definition, an artist can have only one "apex" moment. And while I define Purple Rain as Prince's commercial "apex" moment, I don't define it as his artistic "apex" moment so I can't say that Prince is "done" since beyond his "apex" moment I just want him to write songs that interest me, challenge me, and move me, making me want to sing, dance, and think. As such, Prince hasn't released an album in which most of the album hasn't been complied of songs that make me want to sing, dance, and think. Even one of my least favorite albums, Planet Earth, has four songs to which I grade as B and two songs that I grade as A. So, I don't know if he's "done" to others, but he's still creating art that moves me.

dealodelandron said:

Buttox said:

Fair point already made by Nouveaudance but if people bothered to read my whole post.... also, does the other part of the title "so many 90s quasi hits" not give a clue that this is not about mindless Prince bashing and is trying to make nuanced points? I guess people are much more attracted to the negative...the internet tends to do that to people. As some have stated my main point on the "done" comment is a good 10-15 years late at least...I wanted to check if the org had changed and improved with the benefit of time but I think it has gotten worse on some levels. All I need now is to find Bart Van Hemelen lurking in the thread, still hating Prince with an unyielding passion yet unable to move on and let his hate die....

[Edited 11/20/14 9:25am]

I read your post, and you do go on to elaborate. I'm just surprised that this comes as a shock when your title seems to be provacative by design. Its bound to prompt different types of responses. You made a choice (conscious or unconscious) to word it the way you did, so you can't really be too shocked that it might put people on the offensive.

--->Well I am surprised that you think that I am shocked. I think everything I've written indicates that the reaction of the Prince Borg (NouveauDance's term not mine) is par for the course. What I was mildly dissappointed by is that more people haven't moved on and can discuss Prince with more dispassion...but I don't think I registered shock at any point.

Beyond that, I've got several favorites on each P release, but I rarely classify things as 80s, 90s era. I also believe that he still creates songs that reflect a creative brilliance. I've rarely judged his work by albums. Although Prince played a huge part in alienating some of his fan base, the industry also made some conscious efforts to alienate him. So its hard to gauge what kind of impact some of his later work might have had on the masses. For people I knew, it was all or nothing. They were either true fans, or they said "oh, he still makes music?". During his worst years for album sales, the dude was putting on legendary gigs in Europe and showcasing constant new material that always highlighted his genius.

--->If you watch the recent Arsenio Hall interview Prince says he held back the Breakdown because he needed to create an album that fit with it. He has also stressed that he cares about creating good old fashioned albums and not just hit songs, so Prince himself views albums as cohesive wholes that should be judged as such. And his later albums just dont hold together like they did in his heyday.

--->On his creative brilliance...yes it is still there but you can extend my 90s thesis all the way to the present days...really good songs that lack that extra spark or that are burdened by his ego and/or his lack of creative discipline which would otherwise push them out into the stratosphere of greatness. Clouds is exhibit A and there are a couple of other tracks on AOA which I heard and went damn! another one! Why Prince Why??

[Edited 11/20/14 18:02pm]

Noodled24 said:

Buttox said:

4. Noodled I dont rate sales - its more about creative brilliance.

Well then how do you define "hit" - if it's personal prefererence then the entire discussion is redundant.

It's just a fact that in the 80's Prince was huge in the states, by the 90's he was huge internationally on a Jackson/Madonna level, by the 00's he'd retreated completely into himself and started to release boring songs with dull music.

Noodled I apologise. I dealt with your thoughts with a pretty shitty throwaway one liner. Let me elaborate and respond to your points.

I focused on "iconic" and "creative brilliance" because what made the 80s special is that he did creative stuff and different style albums (1999 is synth funk pop, Purple Rain is rock pop, ATWID is pschedelia/beatles, Parade is French Jazz, SoT is heavy bass soul funk etc) he hadn't made before (and no one else had) constantly different and challenging (songs that grow on you and also dont sit well in the album categories i set out above) and albums that worked as wholes but he also had a lot of commercial success.. that only happened in the 80s when he was most open to collaboration with others and he wasnt so preoccupied with total control over all aspects of his career.

On your 90s vs 80s points. I think Prince was never bigger in Europe than during Lovesexy and Diamonds and Pearls which you can argue is his international but not creative apex. But it all went downhill after 1993 with the only truly bright commercial blip being The Most Beautiful Girl in the World singlle. I think he was much closer to Madonna/MJ in late 80s and early 90s than during most of the 90s....

well...hard to reply to everything you say...

but about space and pheromone... these are hits in my universe..meaning they are among my top spins the last decade...specially the universal love mix...which is among my top 3...if they could be hits commercially..not sure...the main problem with P. in the 90's was that he was in Europe embraced by all...but lost a lot of goodwill with the symbol name change..and the rapping...from a music genius...he became a commercial wacko...something to stay clear of to stay cool...

as for love 2 the 9's...i love how it is done...also the rap...one of his top songs of the 90's...

tx for your post...