Many people on this forum have pointed out that AOA is sonically different from previous albums. How much of this is down to Prince getting help with new technology? How easy is it to learn how to use the latest studio gadgets? Was Prince starting to repeat himself because he hadn't bothered to learn how to use new technology? Was he finding it difficult to translate his ideas with equipment he didn't have much experience with? Is this where Josh comes in?

I know there are plenty of people on the org with studio experience. What do you think?

paulludvig said:

Many people on this forum have pointed out that AOA is sonically different from previous albums. How much of this is down to Prince getting help with new technology? How easy is it to learn how to use the latest studio gadgets? Was Prince starting to repeat himself because he hadn't bothered to learn how to use new technology? Was he finding it difficult to translate his ideas with equipment he didn't have much experience with? Is this where Josh comes in?

I know there are plenty of people on the org with studio experience. What do you think?

it was actually produced my someone who knew what they were doing with contemporary equipment - pretty obvious.

Zannaloaf said:

paulludvig said:

Many people on this forum have pointed out that AOA is sonically different from previous albums. How much of this is down to Prince getting help with new technology? How easy is it to learn how to use the latest studio gadgets? Was Prince starting to repeat himself because he hadn't bothered to learn how to use new technology? Was he finding it difficult to translate his ideas with equipment he didn't have much experience with? Is this where Josh comes in?

I know there are plenty of people on the org with studio experience. What do you think?

it was actually produced my someone who knew what they were doing with contemporary equipment - pretty obvious.

So it's about technical know-how, rather than musical creativity and ideas?

I'd say there's actually nothing really new on this album in terms of filters or production, it's just that's it's all layered up more thick and dialed up (which is the more conventional way to do it in top 40 pop music). Normally Prince was more minimal with these things, but his stuff has always used the the latest techniques and filters and gadgets. But he normally kept it very simple and dry for that "Prince" brand sound. That's where another producer's touch is possible... parts of this sound much more produced (more effects, more typical edits in the vein of contemporary pop)

He's tried different off-Prince things before like the early pop techno dance sound of "Loose" or the synth dance beat heavy "New World".

But there's tracks on AOA that sound no different at all then any past Prince album (like "The Gold Standard").

ufoclub said:

I'd say there's actually nothing really new on this album in terms of filters or production, it's just that's it's all layered up more thick and dialed up (which is the more conventional way to do it in top 40 pop music). Normally Prince was more minimal with these things, but his stuff has always used the the latest techniques and filters and gadgets. But he normally kept it very simple and dry for that "Prince" brand sound. That's where another producer's touch is possible... parts of this sound much more produced (more effects, more typical edits in the vein of contemporary pop)

He's tried different off-Prince things before like the early pop techno dance sound of "Loose" or the synth dance beat heavy "New World".

But there's tracks on AOA that sound no different at all then any past Prince album (like "The Gold Standard").

Interesting that you find the production on AOA more conventional. How would you describe the production on classic records like Shockadelica? Certainly not conventional, I guess?

paulludvig said:

Many people on this forum have pointed out that AOA is sonically different from previous albums. How much of this is down to Prince getting help with new technology? How easy is it to learn how to use the latest studio gadgets? Was Prince starting to repeat himself because he hadn't bothered to learn how to use new technology? Was he finding it difficult to translate his ideas with equipment he didn't have much experience with? Is this where Josh comes in?

I know there are plenty of people on the org with studio experience. What do you think?

Its not so much its hard to learn, its more time consuming and alot of trial and error and patience is needed, even alot of big artists that you think produce their own stuff use Ghost writers (IE someone they tell what they want and this person with the knowledge lays it down in the software) you look at the like of David guetta (terrible) but his career is built on other people making his music.

This is rife in the industry even as far as people getting ghost writers to produce stuff over skype for them from a different country.

[Edited 10/14/14 14:23pm]

fnksoul said:

Its not so much its hard to learn, its more time consuming and alot of trial and error and patience is needed, even alot of big artists that you think produce their own stuff use Ghost writers (IE someone they tell what they want and this person with the knowledge lays it down in the software) you look at the like of David guetta (terrible) but his career is built on other people making his music.

This is rife in the industry even as far as people getting ghost writers to produce stuff over skype for them from a different country.

[Edited 10/14/14 14:23pm]

But it's still HIS music? He "just" had someone programme it.

paulludvig said:

fnksoul said:

Its not so much its hard to learn, its more time consuming and alot of trial and error and patience is needed, even alot of big artists that you think produce their own stuff use Ghost writers (IE someone they tell what they want and this person with the knowledge lays it down in the software) you look at the like of David guetta (terrible) but his career is built on other people making his music.

This is rife in the industry even as far as people getting ghost writers to produce stuff over skype for them from a different country.

[Edited 10/14/14 14:23pm]

But it's still HIS music? He "just" had someone programme it.

Yeah, I didnt say it wasnt his music anywhere in there? Making a point about ghost writers being used by people who are not great with digital production, and that they are used to produce for alot of people that you may not expect.

[Edited 10/14/14 14:52pm]

[Edited 10/14/14 14:53pm]

paulludvig said:

ufoclub said:

I'd say there's actually nothing really new on this album in terms of filters or production, it's just that's it's all layered up more thick and dialed up (which is the more conventional way to do it in top 40 pop music). Normally Prince was more minimal with these things, but his stuff has always used the the latest techniques and filters and gadgets. But he normally kept it very simple and dry for that "Prince" brand sound. That's where another producer's touch is possible... parts of this sound much more produced (more effects, more typical edits in the vein of contemporary pop)

He's tried different off-Prince things before like the early pop techno dance sound of "Loose" or the synth dance beat heavy "New World".

But there's tracks on AOA that sound no different at all then any past Prince album (like "The Gold Standard").

Interesting that you find the production on AOA more conventional. How would you describe the production on classic records like Shockadelica? Certainly not conventional, I guess?

Correct, Prince normally had own style of production, and especially with SOTT, I remember back then in '87 being shocked by how sparse and beat-centric the music was with no warm melodic bass lines (there was simply bass in the kick in many songs).

•

A song like Forever in My Life, The Cross or Play in the Sunshine almost sounded like they had the friendly parts of a mix, the sweetening rhythm chords or melodic bass played down or deleted, and it seemed like the beat was laid bare like a spine. Keyboard parts and little percussion noices were raw and almost naked in front. I found it to be very experimental at the time.

•

These days you have a lot of people copying that style (but so many many years later).

•

But AOA has more ear friendly lush layers and reverb and melodic touches. And the digital effects also fit in with contemporary trends. But it's not like he hasn't used auto-tune or phone voice filters before. The beats sound more submeged and not naked.

•

If anything I feel like the signs of another producer is more layering and reverb and synth tones. It makes it easier to "get" on a first listen.

[Edited 10/14/14 15:49pm]

ufoclub said:

paulludvig said:

Interesting that you find the production on AOA more conventional. How would you describe the production on classic records like Shockadelica? Certainly not conventional, I guess?

Correct, Prince normally had own style of production, and especially with SOTT, I remember back then in '87 being shocked by how sparse and beat-centric the music was with no warm melodic bass lines (there was simply bass in the kick in many songs).

•

A song like Forever in My Life, The Cross or Play in the Sunshine almost sounded like they had the friendly parts of a mix, the sweetening rhythm chords or melodic bass played down or deleted, and it seemed like the beat was laid bare like a spine. Keyboard parts and little percussion noices were raw and almost naked in front. I found it to be very experimental at the time.

•

These days you have a lot of people copying that style (but so many many years later).

•

But AOA has more ear friendly lush layers and reverb and melodic touches. And the digital effects also fit in with contemporary trends. But it's not like he hasn't used auto-tune or phone voice filters before. The beats sound more submeged and not naked.

•

If anything I feel like the signs of another producer is more layering and reverb and synth tones. It makes it easier to "get" on a first listen.

[Edited 10/14/14 15:49pm]

Indeed! The minimalist approach on many of the songs from that period was commented on by critics at the time and considered almost avant garde in a pop context. At the same time the minimalist approach to pop music has been highly influential (influence is usually a criterion when judging the quality of art). Some of the songs that get the least love here on the org (It, Hot Thing), are the most influential tracks in the context of pop history. Maybe that is why we sometimes forget how radical Prince's arrangements and production was (and perhaps still is?)? His influence is everywhere?

[Edited 10/15/14 9:53am]

I may of course be completely wrong but when I listen to AOA there are many sounds, effects and specific arangements that I immediately recognize as being Josh. Some others I'm not sure, though.

databank said:

I may of course be completely wrong but when I listen to AOA there are many sounds, effects and specific arangements that I immediately recognize as being Josh. Some others I'm not sure, though.

Do you have some examples? Where do you draw the line between sounds/effects and arrangements and between arrangement and production?

paulludvig said:

databank said:

I may of course be completely wrong but when I listen to AOA there are many sounds, effects and specific arangements that I immediately recognize as being Josh. Some others I'm not sure, though.

Do you have some examples? Where do you draw the line between sounds/effects and arrangements and between arrangement and production?

I mean that there are some keyboard sounds, drum machine sounds/programmings, sound effects and filters that are at the same totally untypical of 's usual musical palette and typically sounding like today's radio-friendly music. It also seems ovious to me on Fallinlove2nite. IDK, but my take is that the things that were never here before are Josh'.

I think Prince was more on top of what was happening in studio/music technology pre Mid 1990's.

I think he's very comfortable with analog and tape machines and the wonderful sound of Real gear that 'Cannot' be achieved in digital.

I think All musicians that have grown up using real gear will find it difficult to come to grips with the limitations of digital technology **specifically the sound** thats why the gold standard doesnt sound as warm/fat as Head or Sexy Dancer ect...

go listen to the Written, Produced, Performed & Composed 'Analog' Prince albums

**everything pre 1990*** then listen to 20Ten, 3121 or AOA..

Ego101 said:

I think Prince was more on top of what was happening in studio/music technology pre Mid 1990's.

I think he's very comfortable with analog and tape machines and the wonderful sound of Real gear that 'Cannot' be achieved in digital.

I think All musicians that have grown up using real gear will find it difficult to come to grips with the limitations of digital technology **specifically the sound** thats why the gold standard doesnt sound as warm/fat as Head or Sexy Dancer ect...

go listen to the Written, Produced, Performed & Composed 'Analog' Prince albums

**everything pre 1990*** then listen to 20Ten, 3121 or AOA..

If working with new recording technology requires a lot of tweaking and twiddling. I imagine that could be a problem for Prince. He's not a patience guy, is he?

You may be correct.. I've personally found that the convienience of Digital is what makes it difficult for many people to continue doing things the old ways.. people like Jack White are still doing things that way.. as well as Lenny Kravitz on his 1st 4 albums..

its expensive & time consuming maintaining a tape machine and everything else that goes with an analog studio.. Im sure that Prince mainly is attracted to Modern recording technology because its Tremendously quicker to use & anyone can basically have a 'Studio' capable of releasing professional results sitting in their laptop. the advantages in theory sound Amazing compared to what 'professional' recording meant in the 70s- 80s.. (Most of Princes 80s classics were recorded in his own ANALOG home studio and a warehouse where he had his studio set up for a while)

There are huge analog vs digital debates that will never die & there seems to be very few modern records that have the 'sound' or timelessness of older (pre digital) music.. + i'd say more than 75% of the software's used in DAWS (digital audio workstations) are trying desperately to mimic something analog. ie: Who needs that $5000 piece of Bulky hardware? when for just $149 you can buy our digitally modeled reproduction and use as many instances of it in your song as you want!

Who needs live drums..? mics? great recording rooms? or even the ability to sing a chorus throughout the song... why do that when you can just do it once.. then copy and paste it each time the chorus is sung! dont worry about bad notes.. any notes can be turned musical and in tune.

Unfortunately most of the people buying these digital tools have no idea what the real thing actually sounds and feels like and they Dont ever sound as good as the real thing!

Just like many Oldschool photographers know that the nicest digital camera's cant compare to what you can do with Real Film & natural Lighting.

paulludvig said:

Ego101 said:

I think Prince was more on top of what was happening in studio/music technology pre Mid 1990's.

I think he's very comfortable with analog and tape machines and the wonderful sound of Real gear that 'Cannot' be achieved in digital.

I think All musicians that have grown up using real gear will find it difficult to come to grips with the limitations of digital technology **specifically the sound** thats why the gold standard doesnt sound as warm/fat as Head or Sexy Dancer ect...

go listen to the Written, Produced, Performed & Composed 'Analog' Prince albums

**everything pre 1990*** then listen to 20Ten, 3121 or AOA..

If working with new recording technology requires a lot of tweaking and twiddling. I imagine that could be a problem for Prince. He's not a patience guy, is he?

[Edited 10/16/14 10:27am]

[Edited 10/17/14 4:02am]

I don't feel that Prince has adapted well to the digital world. He was a master back in the day when everything was hardware and wires that plug into each other. He experimented and came up with brand new sounds. Even his drum programming was on physical hardware with knobs and switches.

Today, with things like Pro Tools and Cubase etc, it is a different animal entirely. If you are not too computer savvy and you havent sat down to learn the software, then it is a very hard thing to pick up. Irrelevant of your musical mastery. Its a bit like a professional photographer making the move from developing his own pictures in a dark room, to using Photoshop. Photoshop is a beast and a very powerful peice of software, but it doesnt matter how accomplished you are in a dark room, if you do not take the time to learn it, you will be quite lost other than being able to do the basics.

Prince, I think, is able to do the basics with digital software, but doesnt have the chops that students of the software have. MPLSound and 20ten convince me of that. The basics are there, but studied knowledge of the software isnt. But Im sure he is learning. Josh is a great addition to Prince's music. Not just because of what he can do with said software, but also what he is no doubt teaching Prince about the software. This can only reenergise Prince, hopefully resulting in him experimenting and inventing again like he did back in the day.

databank said:

I may of course be completely wrong but when I listen to AOA there are many sounds, effects and specific arangements that I immediately recognize as being Josh. Some others I'm not sure, though.

Yeah, me too.

I find it quite frustrating to try to point out that to some people here because they seem to think that "everything that sounds" good on AOA was done by Josh. About half of the tracks seem to have been done even before he got involved with Prince.

As for the Photoshop comparison, well, I think the way Prince and Josh have used DAW technology on AOA is pefectly comparable to how people that aren't that good on Photoshop overuse the filters, lighting effects, the smudge tool etc. It's just too obvious.

If you've used such programs a lot yourself you should be able to hear how stuck to beginner level DAW stuff the release actually is. It's the same basic production tricks done over and over again and I don't think it always blends that successfully with the way the songs themselves are written (I do like "This Could Be Us" quite a lot, but the "production" on it is pretty hacky).

Ego101 said:

You may be correct.. I've personally found that the convienience of Digital is what makes it difficult for many people to continue doing things the old ways.. people like Jack White are still doing things that way.. as well as Lenny Kravitz on his 1st 4 albums..

[...]

I appreciate your comments and agree with the point about digital emulations never really sounding like the real thing. I became disillusioned with it myself ages ago already and we've had that emulation stuff around for 15+ years. It's hardly a "new" thing.

However,

The image you've posted is way too big for this site and on some browsers that don't scale it down successfully your entire post is difficult to read. The text doesn't wrap correctly (so you should stick to posting smaller images).

novabrkr said:

databank said:

I may of course be completely wrong but when I listen to AOA there are many sounds, effects and specific arangements that I immediately recognize as being Josh. Some others I'm not sure, though.

Yeah, me too.

I find it quite frustrating to try to point out that to some people here because they seem to think that "everything that sounds" good on AOA was done by Josh. About half of the tracks seem to have been done even before he got involved with Prince.

As for the Photoshop comparison, well, I think the way Prince and Josh have used DAW technology on AOA is pefectly comparable to how people that aren't that good on Photoshop overuse the filters, lighting effects, the smudge tool etc. It's just too obvious.

If you've used such programs a lot yourself you should be able to hear how stuck to beginner level DAW stuff the release actually is. It's the same basic production tricks done over and over again and I don't think it always blends that successfully with the way the songs themselves are written (I do like "This Could Be Us" quite a lot, but the "production" on it is pretty hacky).

Perhaps to trained ears. But I am no DAW expert so I couldnt say. I do feel it has brought something new sounding to the table in as far as Prince is concerned, even if it isnt new in as far as the technology allows.

Perhaps that is exactly why Prince has opted for an unknown like Josh to work with him. Whilst he may not be an outright expert, he knows his way around enough to point Prince in the right direction. The two of them can then explore things further and, ultimately, Prince can start fucking around with it in his own way. A well known, seasoned DAW producer may not provide that flexibility (read control) Prince wants.

cool thanks.

novabrkr said:

Ego101 said:

You may be correct.. I've personally found that the convienience of Digital is what makes it difficult for many people to continue doing things the old ways.. people like Jack White are still doing things that way.. as well as Lenny Kravitz on his 1st 4 albums..

[...]

I appreciate your comments and agree with the point about digital emulations never really sounding like the real thing. I became disillusioned with it myself ages ago already and we've had that emulation stuff around for 15+ years. It's hardly a "new" thing.

However,

The image you've posted is way too big for this site and on some browsers that don't scale it down successfully your entire post is difficult to read. The text doesn't wrap correctly (so you should stick to posting smaller images).

Rebeljuice said:

Rebeljuice said:

I don't feel that Prince has adapted well to the digital world. He was a master back in the day when everything was hardware and wires that plug into each other. He experimented and came up with brand new sounds. Even his drum programming was on physical hardware with knobs and switches.

Today, with things like Pro Tools and Cubase etc, it is a different animal entirely. If you are not too computer savvy and you havent sat down to learn the software, then it is a very hard thing to pick up. Irrelevant of your musical mastery. Its a bit like a professional photographer making the move from developing his own pictures in a dark room, to using Photoshop. Photoshop is a beast and a very powerful peice of software, but it doesnt matter how accomplished you are in a dark room, if you do not take the time to learn it, you will be quite lost other than being able to do the basics.

Prince, I think, is able to do the basics with digital software, but doesnt have the chops that students of the software have. MPLSound and 20ten convince me of that. The basics are there, but studied knowledge of the software isnt. But Im sure he is learning. Josh is a great addition to Prince's music. Not just because of what he can do with said software, but also what he is no doubt teaching Prince about the software. This can only reenergise Prince, hopefully resulting in him experimenting and inventing again like he did back in the day.

I think you got this spot on, and when he finally finds his perfect software geek mastermind, wooooohooooo!

its one hting to play instruments its another to learn the ins and outs of software, and frankly why woud we even expect him to bother with that? if anything thats what these younger kids are really good at...we may see a succession of josh's in the coming years

Prince is pretty tech savy.

He's a a rich musician with his own massive and expensive recording studio. Even as far back as TGE and Exodus - there was a clear influence of computers. He obviously spent a lot of time around Morris Hays. The modern software - it's designed to be user friendly. It's designed to look like a studio. Why wouldn't be he able to pick it up?

His main problem in terms of production has been the sounds he chose to represent the albums. Often going overboard and making things too glossy. Tinkering too much if anything.