The secret Jewish history of Prince’s 'Purple Rain’

How 'the artist formerly known as' got together with some Jewish guys to make music. A story to mark the legendary album’s 30th anniversary.

http://www.haaretz.com/je...s/1.605050

In 1993, at the height of his fame, after selling millions of albums, collecting a closetful of Grammy, Golden Globe and Academy awards, and establishing himself as one of the all-time greats of rock ’n’ roll, Prince did an odd thing: He changed his name to an unpronounceable glyph.

Changing one’s name, of course, has a long and venerable history, going back at least as far as biblical times, and often reflects inner or outer turmoil, such as when Abram and Jacob became Abraham and Israel. In Prince’s case, replacing his name with what he called the “love symbol” — something approximating a union of the symbols for male and female, but not quite — was meant as a protest against the executives at his label, Warner Records, with whom he was struggling for creative and financial control of his career. Imagine you were one of those record label honchos — how infuriating it would be for your biggest star and cash cow to refuse to allow his recordings to bear his name, or any name! Prince — or at this point, “the Artist Formerly Known as Prince” — even began writing the word “slave” on his cheek whenever going out in public.

For the man born Prince Rogers Nelson, this was ultimately an act of self-emancipation; indeed, he titled an album “Emancipation” in 1996. A year earlier, his offshoot band, the New Power Generation, released an album called “Exodus.” Also in 1996, Prince released an album called “Chaos and Disorder,” a loose translation of two key words in the second verse of the Bible — “the earth was tohu v’vohu” — probably a good description of what it felt like to be sitting in a marketing meeting at Warner trying to figure out how to promote the star’s next album without using the name “Prince.”

A decade after his name change, in 2003, Prince found himself at the center of a quieter but no less unusual episode. On Erev Yom Kippur, a Minneapolis woman answered her doorbell to find two gentlemen standing in her doorway: her hometown’s most famous son — whom she recognized instantly — along with Larry Graham, former bassist for Sly and the Family Stone — whom she didn’t recognize. The two offered her pamphlets and asked if they could come inside to talk about the Bible. Prince, it turned out, had become a Jehovah’s Witness.

Prince was no stranger to the Jewish part of town. When he originally put together his band the Revolution — the group that accompanied him on his breakthrough album and subsequent film, “Purple Rain,” which celebrates its 30th anniversary this summer — he made a conscious decision to have a multiracial outfit featuring both men and women. Having come up through the ranks of Minneapolis’s thriving funk scene, Prince’s ultimate musical goal was always to be a mainstream pop star and not to be consigned to rhythm and blues. The distinguishing characteristic of his music, what probably accounted for its mass appeal, was precisely that it incorporated many styles not often associated with black music, including new wave, heavy metal, synth-pop, psychedelia and even classical — into what came to be called “the Minneapolis sound.”

So when he hired musicians, they included drummer Bobby Z, who was really Robert Rivkin, a nice Jewish boy from the St. Louis Park section of Minneapolis, the same neighborhood that produced other nice Jewish boys including the moviemaking Coen Brothers, comedian and politician Al Franken, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, and Peter Himmelman, the Orthodox singer-songwriter son-in-law of Bob Dylan. Prince found Robert Rivkin through his brother, David Rivkin, who worked with Prince as a producer and engineer. Later on, Prince would engage the services of a third brother, film editor Stephen E. Rivkin, on several of his movie projects. The Revolution’s keyboardist, “Doctor” Matthew Fink, also hailed from St. Louis Park. Violinist Novi Novog, who later went on to play with the group Extreme Klezmer Makeover, also contributed her efforts to “Purple Rain” and subsequent Prince recordings.

Around this time Prince began his association with the Melvoin twins, Wendy and Susannah, daughters of famed studio musician and former National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences president, Michael Melvoin. Melvoin, whose family name was originally Mehlworm, had been a member of the famed “Wrecking Crew,” the studio outfit that played on numerous hit albums by the Beach Boys, Barbra Streisand, John Lennon, the Jackson 5, and dozens of others.

Wendy joined the Revolution as a guitarist and played on “Purple Rain,” and Susannah Melvoin signed on as a backup vocalist. Susannah also nearly became the princess of the royal court of the Revolution, one of several women who were engaged to be married to Prince without ultimately tying the knot; she is supposedly the inspiration for the Prince song “Nothing Compares 2 U,” made famous in a hit version by Sinéad O’Connor. The twins’ brother, Jonathan Melvoin, played percussion on Prince’s “Around the World in a Day” album. (He went on to play keyboards with the band Smashing Pumpkins before dying of a heroin overdose in 1996.)

It turned out to be somewhat fortuitous that Prince chose purple to be his identifying color. One might imagine he adopted purple for its association to royalty, which dates back at least as far as King Solomon, who had the artisans of Tyre provide purple fabrics to decorate the Temple. Purple is also a color associated with psychedelia, such as in the Jimi Hendrix song “Purple Haze.” But purple would gain additional resonance for Prince later on — in Nazi Germany, prisoners in concentration camps who were members of “non-conformist” religious groups, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, were required to wear a purple triangle.

So when you’re cueing up your anniversary edition of “Purple Rain,” do so with the knowledge that half of the band plus the guest violinist on this revolutionary album were Jewish.

Seth Rogovoy is a frequent contributor to the Forward’s arts pages, where he has explored the Jewish affinities of such unlikely subjects as David Bowie, Apple Computers, Cher and Tupac Shakur.

Oh, no! Jeeeewwwwwwwssssss!

Wow! In retrospect, Prince has one more thing in common with Michael & Madonna. Good Jewish folks were involved in their music careers in certain fashions.

Genesia said:

Oh, no! Jeeeewwwwwwwssssss!

I don't think OldFriends is Jew bashing.

Genesia said:

Oh, no! Jeeeewwwwwwwssssss!

I did consider upon reading the title that the article might be about the sinister Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the 1980s youth through Prince, but the article is from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, so probably not a hotbed of anti-semitic conspiracy theories

I think the article's a tad tongue in cheek, but it was quite a fun read and had some interesting facts, I'd never previously known that Wendy and Susannah were Jewish (or I'd forgotten). Thanks for the link OldFriends4Sale.

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

Genesia said:

Oh, no! Jeeeewwwwwwwssssss!

I did consider upon reading the title that the article might be about the sinister Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the 1980s youth through Prince, but the article is from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, so probably not a hotbed of anti-semitic conspiracy theories

I think the article's a tad tongue in cheek, but it was quite a fun read and had some interesting facts, I'd never previously known that Wendy and Susannah were Jewish (or I'd forgotten). Thanks for the link OldFriends4Sale.

I think maybe only on their dad's side - and not sure how observant they are. Doesn't seem like Trevor Horn thought Wendy was Jewish enough when working with them, according to Lisa in an interview with Out mag:

"I hate to say it, but he wouldn’t even let us eat off of his silverware on Friday because he was Jewish. It turned into this nightmare."

http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=2&id=25083

But yeah, I wonder what Dr Fink, Bobby and Wendy felt about some of the more overtly Christian stuff they were recording with P.

Robbajobba said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I did consider upon reading the title that the article might be about the sinister Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the 1980s youth through Prince, but the article is from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, so probably not a hotbed of anti-semitic conspiracy theories

I think the article's a tad tongue in cheek, but it was quite a fun read and had some interesting facts, I'd never previously known that Wendy and Susannah were Jewish (or I'd forgotten). Thanks for the link OldFriends4Sale.

I think maybe only on their dad's side - and not sure how observant they are. Doesn't seem like Trevor Horn thought Wendy was Jewish enough when working with them, according to Lisa in an interview with Out mag:

"I hate to say it, but he wouldn’t even let us eat off of his silverware on Friday because he was Jewish. It turned into this nightmare."

http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=2&id=25083

But yeah, I wonder what Dr Fink, Bobby and Wendy felt about some of the more overtly Christian stuff they were recording with P.

Robbajobba said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I did consider upon reading the title that the article might be about the sinister Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the 1980s youth through Prince, but the article is from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, so probably not a hotbed of anti-semitic conspiracy theories

I think the article's a tad tongue in cheek, but it was quite a fun read and had some interesting facts, I'd never previously known that Wendy and Susannah were Jewish (or I'd forgotten). Thanks for the link OldFriends4Sale.

I think maybe only on their dad's side - and not sure how observant they are. Doesn't seem like Trevor Horn thought Wendy was Jewish enough when working with them, according to Lisa in an interview with Out mag:

"I hate to say it, but he wouldn’t even let us eat off of his silverware on Friday because he was Jewish. It turned into this nightmare."

http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=2&id=25083

But yeah, I wonder what Dr Fink, Bobby and Wendy felt about some of the more overtly Christian stuff they were recording with P.

I never thought his 1980s stuff was overtly Christian. Many Jews are cool with it. As one Jewish person said about Mary Joseph & Jesus, "Hey they were Jews too"

.

But a think a lot of the 'Christian' themed music was more about the subject of Love and not anti-Jewish or doctrinal to be an issue

.

A lot of the songs were more pre-Judaic covenant like God-the Dance Electric

or about Heaven, even the Cross and 4 the Tears In Your Eyes were more about compassion and hope. All very purple Utopian 1980s Prince

Who is surprised, before the anti Semitic crap on Family name, I alway thought Prince appreciated Jewish people. Many Jewish people made him a star, think of his first manager Owen Husney - Jewish. The people at Warners who signed him - Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin - Jewish. Band Members - Robert Rivkin, Mathew Finkelstein and Wendy Melvoin, producer David Rivkin, all Jewish. Warner Brothers a company started by the Jewish Warner Brothers.

.

These were fabulous talented people all instrumental in Prince's success, they just happened to be Jewish. Strange hopw his success dropped off as the Jewish involvement ebbed off, and it was another successful Jewish executive who risked his career on him in 1999 and finished off poorly - Clive Davis.

.

I have read Clive Davis's autobiography, where mentions his two firings as the worst time in his life - 1975 from Columbia and then 2000 from his own company Arista. He never really says why, but its obvious the flop of Rave un2 the Joy fantastic was the reason, The recipe he used on Santana was a flop for Prince. Thank God he bounced back with J records is refreshing at least.

.

If I was a star I would choose managers, band members, musicians and the like base don their talent, passion for me and the business and skills rather than their race or religion. The fact most of the good ones are Jewish means nothing to me. If anything I am actually pro Jewish and pro Israel. If theres any Jewish conspiracy behind Purple Rain, its helped it rather than hinder it.

.

And I know its strange as I am a Catholic, but to be honest if I was a star I would not want any Catholics anywhere on my payroll except as comic relief and janitors!!!

Adorecream said:

Who is surprised, before the anti Semitic crap on Family name, I alway thought Prince appreciated Jewish people. Many Jewish people made him a star, think of his first manager Owen Husney - Jewish. The people at Warners who signed him - Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin - Jewish. Band Members - Robert Rivkin, Mathew Finkelstein and Wendy Melvoin, producer David Rivkin, all Jewish. Warner Brothers a company started by the Jewish Warner Brothers.

.

These were fabulous talented people all instrumental in Prince's success, they just happened to be Jewish. Strange hopw his success dropped off as the Jewish involvement ebbed off, and it was another successful Jewish executive who risked his career on him in 1999 and finished off poorly - Clive Davis.

.

I have read Clive Davis's autobiography, where mentions his two firings as the worst time in his life - 1975 from Columbia and then 2000 from his own company Arista. He never really says why, but its obvious the flop of Rave un2 the Joy fantastic was the reason, The recipe he used on Santana was a flop for Prince. Thank God he bounced back with J records is refreshing at least.

.

If I was a star I would choose managers, band members, musicians and the like base don their talent, passion for me and the business and skills rather than their race or religion. The fact most of the good ones are Jewish means nothing to me. If anything I am actually pro Jewish and pro Israel. If theres any Jewish conspiracy behind Purple Rain, its helped it rather than hinder it.

.

And I know its strange as I am a Catholic, but to be honest if I was a star I would not want any Catholics anywhere on my payroll except as comic relief and janitors!!!

I suspect he had Catholics (Italian) Albert Magnoli(Purple Rain director) Robert Cavallo, Joseph Ruffalo, and Steve Fargnoli,

It's been a while since I've listened to Family Name. But, what was anti-semitic about it? I only remember him saying something about "Rosenbloom" or something like that. Can someone refresh my memory on this?

SeventeenDayze said:

It's been a while since I've listened to Family Name. But, what was anti-semitic about it? I only remember him saying something about "Rosenbloom" or something like that. Can someone refresh my memory on this?

I think it was something along the line of prince citing names like "blackburn" and "lynch" for black people and jewish names like "rosenbloom" and "goldenqueef" and prince was saying hmmmm .. i wonder why jewish people had these names and black people had those names. It's not exacly racist if it is true. How true it is is hard to say tho. Otherwise it could be said prince is picking a fight. Seems like people like mel gibson believe the jews control all of hollywood and the media in general. This likely includes what is left of the pathatec music industry. Believable but hard to confirm.

[Edited 8/8/14 9:44am]

TrevorAyer said:

SeventeenDayze said:

It's been a while since I've listened to Family Name. But, what was anti-semitic about it? I only remember him saying something about "Rosenbloom" or something like that. Can someone refresh my memory on this?

I think it was something along the line of prince citing names like "blackburn" and "lynch" for black people and jewish names like "rosenbloom" and "goldenqueef" and prince was saying hmmmm .. i wonder why jewish people had these names and black people had those names. It's not exacly racist if it is true. How true it is is hard to say tho. Otherwise it could be said prince is picking a fight. Seems like people like mel gibson believe the jews control all of hollywood and the media in general. This likely includes what is left of the pathatec music industry. Believable but hard to confirm.

[Edited 8/8/14 9:44am]

Okay, that jogs my memory a bit. I remember him performing Family Name during the ONA tour and he talked more about slavery, from what I recall. I think I remember some backlash about the lyrics but never quite made the connection with any potential anti-Semitic sentiment.

I still haven't quite figured out why it's considered anti-Semitic to say that Jews control Hollywood. That's not a fact? The first post kind of gives a glimpse of it. This also includes pro sports. I think the only way it would be anti-Semitics is if someone made disrespectful comments within that context. I wouldn't be offended if someone said black guys dominate the NBA. That's a fact, but if someone said those (fill in the blank) black guys dominate the NBA, then it would be racist.

I am open to being enlightened here.

Thanks!

TrevorAyer said:

SeventeenDayze said:

It's been a while since I've listened to Family Name. But, what was anti-semitic about it? I only remember him saying something about "Rosenbloom" or something like that. Can someone refresh my memory on this?

I think it was something along the line of prince citing names like "blackburn" and "lynch" for black people and jewish names like "rosenbloom" and "goldenqueef" and prince was saying hmmmm .. i wonder why jewish people had these names and black people had those names. It's not exacly racist if it is true. How true it is is hard to say tho. Otherwise it could be said prince is picking a fight. Seems like people like mel gibson believe the jews control all of hollywood and the media in general. This likely includes what is left of the pathatec music industry. Believable but hard to confirm.

[Edited 8/8/14 9:44am]

I thought it was more about 'their pain is worse than yours' type of crap

sorta along the lines of what you've said: um at least you still have your name etc

U might say, "what u mad about?"
But u still got ur Family Name
Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Rosenbloom
I'll b John Blackwell just the same
What's ur Family Name?
.

.

"Black men and white men,

Jews and Gentiles,

Protestants and Catholics will b able 2 join hands in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

"free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!"
.

.

I always looked at this piece when he says From the Tribe of .... Is also including or even more directly talking about Jewish people.

.

When a minority realizes its similarities on a higher level- not just "black"

- but PEOPLE OF COLOR,

and higher still "INDIGENOUS",

and even higher still, "FROM THE TRIBE OF.", Judah Levi Dan Ephraim etc

and yet higher- the "RAINBOW CHILDREN". When this understanding comes, the so-called minority becomes a majority in the wink of an eye.

OldFriends4Sale said:

TrevorAyer said:

I think it was something along the line of prince citing names like "blackburn" and "lynch" for black people and jewish names like "rosenbloom" and "goldenqueef" and prince was saying hmmmm .. i wonder why jewish people had these names and black people had those names. It's not exacly racist if it is true. How true it is is hard to say tho. Otherwise it could be said prince is picking a fight. Seems like people like mel gibson believe the jews control all of hollywood and the media in general. This likely includes what is left of the pathatec music industry. Believable but hard to confirm.

[Edited 8/8/14 9:44am]

I thought it was more about 'their pain is worse than yours' type of crap

sorta along the lines of what you've said: um at least you still have your name etc

U might say, "what u mad about?"
But u still got ur Family Name
Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Rosenbloom
I'll b John Blackwell just the same
What's ur Family Name?
.

.

"Black men and white men,

Jews and Gentiles,

Protestants and Catholics will b able 2 join hands in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

"free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!"
.

.

I always looked at this piece when he says From the Tribe of .... Is also including or even more directly talking about Jewish people.

.

When a minority realizes its similarities on a higher level- not just "black"

- but PEOPLE OF COLOR,

and higher still "INDIGENOUS",

and even higher still, "FROM THE TRIBE OF.", Judah Levi Dan Ephraim etc

and yet higher- the "RAINBOW CHILDREN". When this understanding comes, the so-called minority becomes a majority in the wink of an eye.

So, all things considered in this post thus far, I am wondering what could Prince have possibly experienced that made him at one point surrounded by Jewish people and the years later writing what many of you are saying are anti-Semitic lyrics. What happened?

The impression I got from Family Name the first time I heard it, was that it was more about how black Americans (and Latin America who had their names changed as well) don't have the same ancestral ties, etc. because of the legacy of slavery. Again, I am not talking about slavery in other parts of the world because it's not relevant to the discussion about Prince's lyrics where he's clearly talking about black slavery happening in America.

The second half of the lyrics don't seem anti-Semitic to me. What am I missing here? Thanks

SeventeenDayze said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I thought it was more about 'their pain is worse than yours' type of crap

sorta along the lines of what you've said: um at least you still have your name etc

U might say, "what u mad about?"
But u still got ur Family Name
Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Rosenbloom
I'll b John Blackwell just the same
What's ur Family Name?
.

.

"Black men and white men,

Jews and Gentiles,

Protestants and Catholics will b able 2 join hands in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

"free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!"
.

.

I always looked at this piece when he says From the Tribe of .... Is also including or even more directly talking about Jewish people.

.

When a minority realizes its similarities on a higher level- not just "black"

- but PEOPLE OF COLOR,

and higher still "INDIGENOUS",

and even higher still, "FROM THE TRIBE OF.", Judah Levi Dan Ephraim etc

and yet higher- the "RAINBOW CHILDREN". When this understanding comes, the so-called minority becomes a majority in the wink of an eye.

So, all things considered in this post thus far, I am wondering what could Prince have possibly experienced that made him at one point surrounded by Jewish people and the years later writing what many of you are saying are anti-Semitic lyrics. What happened?

The impression I got from Family Name the first time I heard it, was that it was more about how black Americans (and Latin America who had their names changed as well) don't have the same ancestral ties, etc. because of the legacy of slavery. Again, I am not talking about slavery in other parts of the world because it's not relevant to the discussion about Prince's lyrics where he's clearly talking about black slavery happening in America.

The second half of the lyrics don't seem anti-Semitic to me. What am I missing here? Thanks

yeah, that's what I'm getting, I never got 'Anti-Sematic' from this album.

making a commentary about Jewish people does NOT make one anti-semetic. Let's not even get into the fact that the euro-Jews who occupy Israel aren't even "semetic" as the Arabs and sephardic Jews are.

I don't recall Moses and Jesus being from Poland, Russia or Germany.

Prince made an astute commentary on Family name about name changes, ownership and hstory.

Mention anything even remotely related to Jews and all of a sudden it's anti-semetic.

garbage.

clay said:

Let's not even get into the fact that the euro-Jews who occupy Israel aren't even "semetic" as the Arabs and sephardic Jews are.

Jews don't make that distinction.

The diaspora that ended up in Europe are indeed Semitic. Where do you think "Euro-Jews" came from, outer space?

Robbajobba said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I did consider upon reading the title that the article might be about the sinister Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the 1980s youth through Prince, but the article is from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, so probably not a hotbed of anti-semitic conspiracy theories

I think the article's a tad tongue in cheek, but it was quite a fun read and had some interesting facts, I'd never previously known that Wendy and Susannah were Jewish (or I'd forgotten). Thanks for the link OldFriends4Sale.

I think maybe only on their dad's side - and not sure how observant they are. Doesn't seem like Trevor Horn thought Wendy was Jewish enough when working with them, according to Lisa in an interview with Out mag:

"I hate to say it, but he wouldn’t even let us eat off of his silverware on Friday because he was Jewish. It turned into this nightmare."

http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=2&id=25083

But yeah, I wonder what Dr Fink, Bobby and Wendy felt about some of the more overtly Christian stuff they were recording with P.

Since they are not practicing jews they probably thought nothing of it.

Adorecream said:

Who is surprised, before the anti Semitic crap on Family name, I alway thought Prince appreciated Jewish people. Many Jewish people made him a star, think of his first manager Owen Husney - Jewish. The people at Warners who signed him - Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin - Jewish. Band Members - Robert Rivkin, Mathew Finkelstein and Wendy Melvoin, producer David Rivkin, all Jewish. Warner Brothers a company started by the Jewish Warner Brothers.

.

These were fabulous talented people all instrumental in Prince's success, they just happened to be Jewish. Strange hopw his success dropped off as the Jewish involvement ebbed off, and it was another successful Jewish executive who risked his career on him in 1999 and finished off poorly - Clive Davis.

.

I have read Clive Davis's autobiography, where mentions his two firings as the worst time in his life - 1975 from Columbia and then 2000 from his own company Arista. He never really says why, but its obvious the flop of Rave un2 the Joy fantastic was the reason, The recipe he used on Santana was a flop for Prince. Thank God he bounced back with J records is refreshing at least.

.

If I was a star I would choose managers, band members, musicians and the like base don their talent, passion for me and the business and skills rather than their race or religion. The fact most of the good ones are Jewish means nothing to me. If anything I am actually pro Jewish and pro Israel. If theres any Jewish conspiracy behind Purple Rain, its helped it rather than hinder it.

.

And I know its strange as I am a Catholic, but to be honest if I was a star I would not want any Catholics anywhere on my payroll except as comic relief and janitors!!!

But wait a minute, what about Tommy Barbarella (born Thomas Elm)? Wasn't he THE only Jewish member of the original NPG?

TonyVanDam said:

Adorecream said:

Who is surprised, before the anti Semitic crap on Family name, I alway thought Prince appreciated Jewish people. Many Jewish people made him a star, think of his first manager Owen Husney - Jewish. The people at Warners who signed him - Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin - Jewish. Band Members - Robert Rivkin, Mathew Finkelstein and Wendy Melvoin, producer David Rivkin, all Jewish. Warner Brothers a company started by the Jewish Warner Brothers.

.

These were fabulous talented people all instrumental in Prince's success, they just happened to be Jewish. Strange hopw his success dropped off as the Jewish involvement ebbed off, and it was another successful Jewish executive who risked his career on him in 1999 and finished off poorly - Clive Davis.

.

I have read Clive Davis's autobiography, where mentions his two firings as the worst time in his life - 1975 from Columbia and then 2000 from his own company Arista. He never really says why, but its obvious the flop of Rave un2 the Joy fantastic was the reason, The recipe he used on Santana was a flop for Prince. Thank God he bounced back with J records is refreshing at least.

.

If I was a star I would choose managers, band members, musicians and the like base don their talent, passion for me and the business and skills rather than their race or religion. The fact most of the good ones are Jewish means nothing to me. If anything I am actually pro Jewish and pro Israel. If theres any Jewish conspiracy behind Purple Rain, its helped it rather than hinder it.

.

And I know its strange as I am a Catholic, but to be honest if I was a star I would not want any Catholics anywhere on my payroll except as comic relief and janitors!!!

But wait a minute, what about Tommy Barbarella (born Thomas Elm)? Wasn't he THE only Jewish member of the original NPG?

Tony---how in the hell are some people trying to claim Prince is being anti-Semitic but are the first ones to say racism is a figment of the imagination of others? I seriously doubt Prince is anti-Semitic, if he were, he would have never been able to get his first demo played to any sort of record exec back in the day, let alone have a stellar career!

SeventeenDayze said:

TonyVanDam said:

But wait a minute, what about Tommy Barbarella (born Thomas Elm)? Wasn't he THE only Jewish member of the original NPG?

Tony---how in the hell are some people trying to claim Prince is being anti-Semitic but are the first ones to say racism is a figment of the imagination of others? I seriously doubt Prince is anti-Semitic, if he were, he would have never been able to get his first demo played to any sort of record exec back in the day, let alone have a stellar career!

Sorry I didn't know Elm was a Jewish name, he always looked more Anglos Saxon to me. Possibly cahnged from Elmstein or Elmerstein. Many Jews have shortened or changed their names to sound less ethnic.

.

The craze for names ending in Stein, Berg, Man, er, son comes from the late 18th century when Jews in the Austro Hungarian empire were allowed (Or force) to remove their Hebrew sounding names like bar Yacubi, Shlomo ben Menachem etc to more Germanic ones. This was part of the Judentolerat issued in 1780, the more money a family of Jews had and were willing to pay, the better the surname they got. Big bucks got you names like Goldstein (Goldstone in English), Edelstein (Eidelweiss stone), Rosen (Rose), Engels (Angel), Vogel (Bird), Diamant etc... Little money and poorer jews were saddled with names like Schwarz (Black, dark), Grossman (Bigman) Klein (Little) and even Taschelsnagger (Horse neck) and other horrible descriptive names. Finally many were named after a town they lived in. The ski suffix comes from those in more slavic areas. Examples, Weiner, Frankfurt, Berlinski, Pinkus (of Pinsk). The ski suffix is also where the crude term Kike came from.

.

Stein meant stone or castle, berg was of the town, son was from the hebrew descriptive ben or bar (So the name Jacobson or Jacobsen came from bar - Yaakov or ben Yacubi). The empire was large covering most of poland, bits of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Hungary, so that is why many Ashkenazi Jews who came from places like Belarus and the Ukraine had very German sound surnames, as the Germanic derived language Yiddish was spoken by these Jews (As in the neighbouring German states and even France)

.

Of course entering the English speaking world, many of these German names were changed further, especially during World War One, when a Jewish German was seen the same as a Christian German, and of course the larger numbers that became Christians to gain further civil rights. Hence why common English Jewish names are like Bird, Eagle, Gold, Silvers, and even some non Jewish names like Harris, Arnold, Jamieson, Davis, Robinson (Adapted from Rabbison), Goodman etc.

.

Elm was fired in 1996 anyway when Prince could not afford to pay him anymore. But I feel if he hired some more white players (Other than the girls he has now), he may get back some of his 80s glory. And I agree Catholics were just as instrumental as Jewish people in his early career. However forms of Evangelical Protestantism, have generally always been hostile towards both Catholics and Jews. Most Baptist, and born again Church sects are extremely Protestant and over the top plain worship than the richness and ceremony found in both Ctaholic and Jewish faiths.

Adorecream said:

Elm was fired in 1996 anyway when Prince could not afford to pay him anymore. But I feel if he hired some more white players (Other than the girls he has now), he may get back some of his 80s glory. And I agree Catholics were just as instrumental as Jewish people in his early career. However forms of Evangelical Protestantism, have generally always been hostile towards both Catholics and Jews. Most Baptist, and born again Church sects are extremely Protestant and over the top plain worship than the richness and ceremony found in both Ctaholic and Jewish faiths.

Why do you feel that? (and thank you for being honest about something I suspect many here on the org think. The white musicians Prince has had in his bands throughout the years are, for some reason, generally held in higher regards by org members)

paulludvig said:

Adorecream said:

Elm was fired in 1996 anyway when Prince could not afford to pay him anymore. But I feel if he hired some more white players (Other than the girls he has now), he may get back some of his 80s glory. And I agree Catholics were just as instrumental as Jewish people in his early career. However forms of Evangelical Protestantism, have generally always been hostile towards both Catholics and Jews. Most Baptist, and born again Church sects are extremely Protestant and over the top plain worship than the richness and ceremony found in both Ctaholic and Jewish faiths.

Why do you feel that? (and thank you for being honest about something I suspect many here on the org think. The white musicians Prince has had in his bands throughout the years are, for some reason, generally held in higher regards by org members)

Its a valid point, but realistically, my personal favourites are all Black (Sonny Thompson, Michael Bland, John Blackwell, Andre Cymone, Dez Dickerson, Rosie Gaines, Boni Boyer, Cathy Glover (She's black isn't she?) and Levi Seacer Jnr.), but then again the ones I destest the most are also Black (Tony M, TC Ellis, Greg and Wally, Kirky J).

.

I guess its easy to say that, when Prince has only had a few white band members compared to many Black or mixed/ Hispanic ones (Sheila E, Jill Jones etc). But all of those white members excusing Tommy Elm and Bobby Z (Great drummer, but not many musical ideas) had a signicant impact on his music, Wendynlisa, Fink, Candy, Leeds, Bliss.

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Rather than being racial, I think the org may elevate these people because of their musical impact on Prince rather than their race. I think we all lose focus of the fact Prince may be a Black musician, but he played truly biracial sounding music, and huge cross over appeal and unlike many R and B acts, he had a significant Pop/Rock following that was largely white. Even today I suspect most orgers are ethnically white or almost so like myself.

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We can't help it, Prince was an innovator with race, his appeal and talent in many Black and white forms of music appeals to a greater range of fans than most musical acts of either race ever have.

paulludvig said:

Adorecream said:

Elm was fired in 1996 anyway when Prince could not afford to pay him anymore. But I feel if he hired some more white players (Other than the girls he has now), he may get back some of his 80s glory. And I agree Catholics were just as instrumental as Jewish people in his early career. However forms of Evangelical Protestantism, have generally always been hostile towards both Catholics and Jews. Most Baptist, and born again Church sects are extremely Protestant and over the top plain worship than the richness and ceremony found in both Ctaholic and Jewish faiths.

Why do you feel that? (and thank you for being honest about something I suspect many here on the org think. The white musicians Prince has had in his bands throughout the years are, for some reason, generally held in higher regards by org members)

playing the race card huh?

It has nothing to do with race AT ALL

Most org members hold the people between 1978-1988 in high regard including the proteges

treehouse said:

clay said:

Let's not even get into the fact that the euro-Jews who occupy Israel aren't even "semetic" as the Arabs and sephardic Jews are.

Jews don't make that distinction.

The diaspora that ended up in Europe are indeed Semitic. Where do you think "Euro-Jews" came from, outer space?

right, I don't know where people are getting this from

these millions of Jews weren't a bunch of European converts

I would venture to say Andre and Lisa are his most highly regarded collaborators. Then maybe Morris, Sheila and Clare.

Personally I find his music more interesting the more diverse his band is. The all black npg with token barberalla felt bland (no pun intended). The all white girl 3eg seems almost sleezy in a hugh heffner way, and again, an overall boring sound. Both give off an very close minded aura of non inclusivity, and a lack of acceptance of diversity.

I recall the NPG really making even the one woman, Rosie, feel very uncomfortable. Back in the Rev days it seemed prince was more open to learning via diversity, and now IF he is diverse at all, it seems more about packaging than an actual desire to be diverse or learn anything new from a culture not his own.

TrevorAyer said:

I would venture to say Andre and Lisa are his most highly regarded collaborators. Then maybe Morris, Sheila and Clare.

Personally I find his music more interesting the more diverse his band is. The all black npg with token barberalla felt bland (no pun intended). The all white girl 3eg seems almost sleezy in a hugh heffner way, and again, an overall boring sound. Both give off an very close minded aura of non inclusivity, and a lack of acceptance of diversity.

I recall the NPG really making even the one woman, Rosie, feel very uncomfortable. Back in the Rev days it seemed prince was more open to learning via diversity, and now IF he is diverse at all, it seems more about packaging than an actual desire to be diverse or learn anything new from a culture not his own.

It also seems the people in his camp: the band(s) proteges also had a similar 'multiracial/multicultural' mindset from the Time to Sheila E (band) all forms of his 1980s bands Jill Jones etc they had a more openness to diversity. Didn't seem to fall hard into any racial catagories. They all seemed to have a family feel to each other. LOL and the women all seemed to be a support group for each other like Jill Vanity Apollonia Susan Moonsie lol I don't know much of Sheila's connection to those ladies. Cat said Sheila E wasn't nice to her a lot. Sheila had a good relationship with Jesse Lisa & Wendy Eric(after camp too) though

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Yeah Rosie talked about the atmospher/attitude that NPG had that made her leave quickly.

Tony M thought Prince wasn't 'black enough'

and Dr Fink said that NPG band had a very 2faced attitude with Prince/ass kissers

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paulludvig said:

Why do you feel that? (and thank you for being honest about something I suspect many here on the org think. The white musicians Prince has had in his bands throughout the years are, for some reason, generally held in higher regards by org members)

Just a coincidence. We also hold Andre, Dez, Jesse, Morris, and others in high regard.

Most of the White folks in his group were given characters or provocative stage bits. The groups were more conceptualized, and had a more uniform identity that didn't seem like a bnch of session people wearing spandex and ruffled shirts.