if yall didnt like the mastering back then, why u wanna bring back those same folks?

Besides Susan is not a producer or mastering engineer. She was just a recording engineer.

She just presses record, play and stop and changed the tapes. maybe she adviced to use some external effects and eq. Maybe she helped mix the records.

If prince had the technology of now back then he wouldnt even need her.

Bernie Grundman is still considered on of the best mastering engineers today.

[Edited 6/9/14 23:36pm]

Sure, she must have given her opinions on what sounded good. It's not like she wasn't allowed to talk to Prince during the sessions.

I think the reason why some fans on this site get all emotional when Susan Rogers is mentioned is just because she was often the only other person in the room during the period when Prince did his classic albums. Do I hear any type of "technical excellence" on the recordings themselves that couldn't have been due to the way Prince himself just wanted things to sound? I don't know, I probably don't. As far as I know, Prince himself made the choice on what type of recording gear he would use and I'm pretty sure he himself made the choices on how much reverb / compression and so on the recordings would have in the end. Those are areas where engineers can influence the creative process to a degree, but with Prince the chances for that seem rather minimal. I can certainly hear how important Bruce Swedien was to MJ's music as he was just so ridiculously good at what he did and he was also allowed to make some choices producers usually make, but I'm far more skeptical of Prince's engineers having had such an important role on his music.

A producer must be able to say "no" to the artists when they're straying off. Could Michael Koppelman stop Prince from turning the Kate Bush song into "fucking disco" she sent her, like he himself put it? No, not at all. These people were not producers for Prince and they most likely had very little saying in what type of directions he would take the music to.

novabrkr said:

I'm far more skeptical of Prince's engineers having had such an important role on his music.

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I just don't get why anyone would want to belittle her role to merely a studio hand.

Believing that would also mean rejecting a wealth of insight and anecdotes she's provided into Prince's studio methodology that I don't think fans are ready to give up. .

.

Mind you, she wasn't Phil Spector showing up to the studio and telling Prince of a concept she had for a song...she wasn't writing or creating arrangements, that we know of.... but she was in a position to suggest things, give Prince affirmation, set up recording situations for him...just those things alone are collaborative in an intimate recording session, and that in turn created an influential working atmosphere that allowed Prince's productivity to flourish. Could he have done it himself? The point is, he didn't do it by himself.

treehouse said:

novabrkr said:

I'm far more skeptical of Prince's engineers having had such an important role on his music.

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I just don't get why anyone would want to belittle her role to merely a studio hand.

Believing that would also mean rejecting a wealth of insight and anecdotes she's provided into Prince's studio methodology that I don't think fans are ready to give up. .

.

Mind you, she wasn't Phil Spector showing up to the studio and telling Prince of a concept she had for a song...she wasn't writing or creating arrangements, that we know of.... but she was in a position to suggest things, give Prince affirmation, set up recording situations for him...just those things alone are collaborative in an intimate recording session, and that in turn created an influential working atmosphere that allowed Prince's productivity to flourish. Could he have done it himself? The point is, he didn't do it by himself.

She's on record herself saying Prince never asked for her advice.

paulludvig said:

She's on record herself saying Prince never asked for her advice.

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Her comments about "If I was your Girlfriend" contradict that.

Of course that was also towards the end of their working relationship.

I just reread that interview and what she states is that it was an exception. For that matter, it was not about her making some sort of "production decisions" on what the track should sound like. Prince just asked her opinion if he should release it as a single due to its risque theme.

However, I do believe that any engineer is bound to tell the artists when they should have another take for a part they've played wrong, sang something off-key etc. So I don't really believe she just sat there without making any comments on the material.

novabrkr said:

I just reread that interview and what she states is that it was an exception.

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Calling it an exception implies he absolutely never did it, except for that one instance. She says it wasn't something he would normally do, but it still counters the "Prince never asked her for advice" statement.

From a purely logical perspective, you're right.

However, have some common sense about it.

She clearly admits in that interview that she had no saying during the recording sessions on what the tracks should sound like.

novabrkr said:

She clearly admits in that interview that she had no saying during the recording sessions on what the tracks should sound like.

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She's the only one in the room with one of the most self aware artists of our time.

In some situations, she probably didn't even need to say anything.

Prince was a home studio artist, and she had the keys.

But yeah, we're not hearing she had the ability to say "wow, this song sucks, and we've been at it for 8 hours, let's scrap it".

.

I also think she's doing a certain amount of damage control trying to reel back some of the initial excitement around her becoming available publicly, commenting on the most intimate details of Prince's creative process. People may have overstated her role a little. that said, if there's some backlash because it cuts into the myth of Prince as the studio vituouso and genius musical prodigy, that's pretty silly.

.

In addition to the Camille material, we've got anecdotes about the recording of Wally that make her sound empowered enough to comment on adding instruments to a song. I also don't doubt there were days when she wasn't allowed to talk, but still.

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By her accounts, she didn't say "lay down on your back in the dark to sing Camille", but she did have a creative conversation in that instance, gave her two cents, and made a technical goof that helped form one of Prince's signatures. Honestly that distortion she's talking about, which isn't the recording speed altering his voice, is something Prince used a lot after that, and a certain amount of distortion is even so standard we barely hear it anymore. It became fairly revolutionary, though I'm pretty sure we can find distortion on Prince vocals before that.

treehouse said:

novabrkr said:

She clearly admits in that interview that she had no saying during the recording sessions on what the tracks should sound like.

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She's the only one in the room with one of the most self aware artists of our time.

In some situations, she probably didn't even need to say anything.

Prince was a home studio artist, and she had the keys.

But yeah, we're not hearing she had the ability to say "wow, this song sucks, and we've been at it for 8 hours, let's scrap it".

.

I also think she's doing a certain amount of damage control trying to reel back some of the initial excitement around her becoming available publicly, commenting on the most intimate details of Prince's creative process. People may have overstated her role a little. that said, if there's some backlash because it cuts into the myth of Prince as the studio vituouso and genius musical prodigy, that's pretty silly.

.

In addition to the Camille material, we've got anecdotes about the recording of Wally that make her sound empowered enough to comment on adding instruments to a song. I also don't doubt there were days when she wasn't allowed to talk, but still.

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By her accounts, she didn't say "lay down on your back in the dark to sing Camille", but she did have a creative conversation in that instance, gave her two cents, and made a technical goof that helped form one of Prince's signatures. Honestly that distortion she's talking about, which isn't the recording speed altering his voice, is something Prince used a lot after that, and a certain amount of distortion is even so standard we barely hear it anymore. It became fairly revolutionary, though I'm pretty sure we can find distortion on Prince vocals before that.

What do mean by "In addition to the Camille material"? SR didn't have any creative input on that (or anything else).

paulludvig said:

What do mean by "In addition to the Camille material"? SR didn't have any creative input on that (or anything else).

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I meant in addition to the story about the Camille material we also have the story about recording Wally. Like I said.

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She had some input even if you don't consider the contributions creative.

treehouse said:

paulludvig said:

What do mean by "In addition to the Camille material"? SR didn't have any creative input on that (or anything else).

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I meant in addition to the story about the Camille material we also have the story about recording Wally. Like I said.

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She had some input even if you don't consider the contributions creative.

I don't remember the story about the Camille material. Are you reffering to Prince asking if IIWYG was a good choice for single?

...

[Edited 6/11/14 11:59am]

Is Susan Rogers the source of the story about a snowstorm causing a power outage that resulted in the murky sound on The Ballad of Dorithy Parker? A snowstorm i Minnesota in the middle of March? How likely is that?

paulludvig said:

Is Susan Rogers the source of the story about a snowstorm causing a power outage that resulted in the murky sound on The Ballad of Dorithy Parker? A snowstorm i Minnesota in the middle of March? How likely is that?

Uhm, very?

Pentacle said:

paulludvig said:

Is Susan Rogers the source of the story about a snowstorm causing a power outage that resulted in the murky sound on The Ballad of Dorithy Parker? A snowstorm i Minnesota in the middle of March? How likely is that?

Uhm, very?

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMSP/1986/3/15/DailyHistory.html?

You asked how common snow storms were in March, in Minnesota. Well, very.

no no no no!!! prince doesn't need no Susan Rogers! prince does it ALL himself. he don't need nothing from anybody. NOBODY had ANYTHING to do with how great that music WAS except prince. every one else was just 'work for hire' and literally sat on their asses doing NOTHING unless prince told them EXACTLY what to do. there is absolutely no chance that anybody from that time period had ANY contributions to prince success. in fact prince COULD have just as much success now IF HE WANTED TO. he just intentionally makes shitty sounding music now to weed out the intelligent groupies and get strait to the low self esteem dumber than a brick groupies who currently pretend to listen to (and like) his music. prince has EVERY right and SHOULD intentionally brickwall PR 'breakdown' style so that we can all finally agree that prince is george lucas and will in fact ruin every bit of good he ever did in music .. oops i mean he will prove that his old shit sounds just as bad as his new shit and therefore his musical genius never actually disappeared because it was never there so you can all stop comparing now!! besides, Susan doesn't know how to backmask swear words and add cool lazer sounds as good as prince. PRTHENEWMASTER Believe it!

paulludvig said:

I don't remember the story about the Camille material. Are you reffering to Prince asking if IIWYG was a good choice for single?

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Eh, yeah that's the story, but if you're not really remembering it, I'm not sure how you can write it off. She apparently had some philosphical discussion over the track, and encouraged the concept of the experiment.

treehouse said:

paulludvig said:

I don't remember the story about the Camille material. Are you reffering to Prince asking if IIWYG was a good choice for single?

.

Eh, yeah that's the story, but if you're not really remembering it, I'm not sure how you can write it off. She apparently had some philosphical discussion over the track, and encouraged the concept of the experiment.

Are you referring to this?: Susan Rogers: "Prince asked me what I thought–and that’s not something that he normally did–but he was on the fence as to whether or not it should be a single. I think the record label was saying, “No, don’t do it,” but he wanted to so he asked me what I thought and I offered the opinion which tipped the scales. I told him, “I think you should do it. I’ve never heard a man sing from this perspective before and as a woman I enjoy hearing that. It’s a unique message, it makes you interesting, it’s intriguing. I would do it.” And I think it was a bad call. (laughing) I think ultimately looking back on it, it wasn’t a good choice as a single. "

and then "He would record his vocals by himself in the control room. I would set him up and then I would leave him alone and he would work entirely by himself. It was the only way he could get the performance he needed; he needed that privacy. But I made a mistake and I’d inadvertently set the preamp 10db hotter than normal so it was distorted. When he was done he would call me back into the room and have me do a rough mix or set up for something else. So he left the room and I came back in and I’m doing a rough mix and I realize the entire vocal performance is distorted and I thought, ‘oh no, I bet he hasn’t listened back to this in the speakers. He’s probably just listening in the headphones…he’s gonna come back into this room and have me killed!’ (laughing) But he didn’t mind at all and of course he heard it–he’s as sharp as they come."

Here's more:

Music producers can play different roles. What were your tasks during the period you worked with Prince?
I was not a producer at that time. Prince produced and engineered his own albums, and I assisted him by setting everything up and keeping the equipment working. I would prepare the session by having the console and tape machine and his musical instruments ready to go, so all he had to do was sit down and record. I set the reverbs and outboard gear to the settings he preferred and recorded his band members when he asked me to.

I was also responsible for doing many of the live recordings we did on tour at that time as well as moving his recording equipment to new rehearsal spaces (we recorded his band rehearsals) and providing audio technical assistance on movies and videos. I also helped the design team of Paisley Park Studios and made decisions on the purchase of new recording gear.

ufoclub said:

Are you referring to this?

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That's it, thanks. I think there are some additional peripheral details floating around but that helps.

.

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Prince produced his own records, but it's not a stretch to figure her presence enabled his studio work to grow more experimental. Maybe I'm forgetting, but aside from some songs on the Vanity record, and maybe something from 1999, Purple Rain's techniques seem much more experimental, and maybe more involved.

From talking to Ms. Rogers personally, I'd say she was a great engineer for Prince because she was exclusively an engineer for him. His word was final and she only offered suggestions if he asked (which was extremely rare). So, I'm not sure anybody should stretch and say that she was a collaborator because she wasn't. Wendy & Susanna can be considered collaborators, as well as other band members and associates. But not really Susan. Susan herself has even said she wasn't a collaborator.

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I have my own personal theories that Prince got scared about how big his success was after Purple Rain and subconsciously sabotaged himself as a result, so I don't even think we should blame his post-80s decline on the absence of his early team. But no matter, I almost think that Susan wouldn't be the best for the job precisely because of her engineering them...she'd be too close to the source material to really be objective, I think. The remastering engineer should be someone who understands the nuances of the time period, yet is far enough removed from its creation to bring it up to modernity. *shrug*

RoseDuchess12 said:

Susan herself has even said she wasn't a collaborator.

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I may have used the word collaborator. It doesn't mean she was an equal partnership creatively to be a collaborator, but neither would it mean that if she was hired and credited with a more advanced job title. I think this is getting into the area of people not entirely understanding what happens in a studio setting either diminishing or worrying about overstating, what kind of collaborative role is involved, in laymans terms.

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You can't be the entire studio staff for an analogue era recording, working directly with the artist and act as a pair of hands without some measure of collaboration. It's not possible, unless all she did was wrap cables and rewind tapes.

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True, but in this case it seems like Prince really did just hire a person that had a standard set of skills as a sound engineer as that's all he needed. I've understood Susan Rogers wasn't someone that had worked with too many big names before. It was like Prince was hiring people that had mostly done things like TV sound, radio stuff etc. before. Do we have any sort of evidence that Susan Rogers herself had some sort of a "flair" for experimentalism that you could hear on those records in the end? Did she even listen to funk music herself?

Not that I couldn't appreciate someone being able to work so quickly with all the stylistic changes Prince was making at the time. I really like the way the horns and the acoustic drum kits sound on Parade and SOTT and especially the horns seemed to come out of nowhere in his music. Maybe they're recorded with "basic" techniques, but it all works very well. Had there been some "star engineer" around we might have ended up with some pretty kitschy mid-, late-80s sounding stuff instead.

I'll still have to note that one reason why Prince's recordings sound as good as they do, despite the shortcomings with the recording techniques, is that he just arranged his music so well. He just understood the concept of "space", still does, and when you have a good understanding of such things the recording process works far more effortlessly than when the artists don't really know what they're doing and just keep adding tracks in effort to make things sound more interesting etc.

[Edited 6/13/14 0:24am]

There's some that think Lovesexy was ruined by overcrowded arrangments that don't gel together, and do sound kitschy 80's!

novabrkr said:

True, but in this case it seems like Prince really did just hire a person that had a standard set of skills as a sound engineer as that's all he needed. I've understood Susan Rogers wasn't someone that had worked with too many big names before. It was like Prince was hiring people that had mostly done things like TV sound, radio stuff etc. before. Do we have any sort of evidence that Susan Rogers herself had some sort of a "flair" for experimentalism that you could hear on those records in the end? Did she even listen to funk music herself?

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I don't think anyone but Prince had anything to do with musical arrangements, so we agree, but studio edits are a different ballgame. Some songs on PR and SOTT do seem like they may have been built out of edits and cut ins (like WDC with the opening guitar, etc.). Alternatively, I think there are songs that sound like he arranged them around edits, when it was really the composing process instead (Computer Blue, maybe?).

.

The radio, and TV audio guys are just the kind of generic studio people that come with a room rental, or just cheap journeyman guys available. As for Susan, I'm not sure she did entirely have the skillset needed which is why the recordings are raw. I think her presence was just enabling, and it's the most valid explaination for some of the idiosyncracies in that era of recordings, which aren't prevalent prior to that and only show up later when it appears very purposeful. Again, we're talking self produced recordings in an analogue 80's studio, utilizing things like drum machines and heavy synths. Every band has the dude (hardly ever a dudette) that shapes their sound, and they are always unsung heroes. ATWIAD and Parade are pretty involved recordings. Prince had limits to what he could have physically done. Everything from mic placement to mixes would have been done to Prince's specifications, but studio intangables are a huge thing. Remember, a lot of engineers and studios get hired out simply because of vibe alone.

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Susan was a Sly fan, and a Prince face before getting hired on. She talks about sharing the same reference points.

ufoclub said:

There's some that think Lovesexy was ruined by overcrowded arrangments that don't gel together, and do sound kitschy 80's!

Well, yes, I know. They're just, you know, wrong. It's like they decided that they really like the minimalst stuff on SOTT and as Lovesexy was different from it it had to be evil.

But what I was really getting at with my comments is that Prince has never relied on stacking sounds on top of each other in an attempt to make the recordings "work". He's hardly ever had, say, several layers of him strumming the chord changes with guitars, doubling those chords with keyboards and then having some arbitrary sounds on top of that all to make it seem the arrengements have also something interesting going on. That approach is pretty standard for many popular rock acts in any case and that kind of stuff can be very hard to engineer / mix as the instruments are constantly fighting for the same frequencies without a proper sentiment of space being present. Sure, "Purple Rain" was dense, but he seemed to understood that it would be for the best if he did it as a live recording.

treehouse said:

novabrkr said:

True, but in this case it seems like Prince really did just hire a person that had a standard set of skills as a sound engineer as that's all he needed. I've understood Susan Rogers wasn't someone that had worked with too many big names before. It was like Prince was hiring people that had mostly done things like TV sound, radio stuff etc. before. Do we have any sort of evidence that Susan Rogers herself had some sort of a "flair" for experimentalism that you could hear on those records in the end? Did she even listen to funk music herself?

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I don't think anyone but Prince had anything to do with musical arrangements, so we agree, but studio edits are a different ballgame. Some songs on PR and SOTT do seem like they may have been built out of edits and cut ins (like WDC with the opening guitar, etc.). Alternatively, I think there are songs that sound like he arranged them around edits, when it was really the composing process instead (Computer Blue, maybe?).

.

The radio, and TV audio guys are just the kind of generic studio people that come with a room rental, or just cheap journeyman guys available. As for Susan, I'm not sure she did entirely have the skillset needed which is why the recordings are raw. I think her presence was just enabling, and it's the most valid explaination for some of the idiosyncracies in that era of recordings, which aren't prevalent prior to that and only show up later when it appears very purposeful. Again, we're talking self produced recordings in an analogue 80's studio, utilizing things like drum machines and heavy synths. Every band has the dude (hardly ever a dudette) that shapes their sound, and they are always unsung heroes. ATWIAD and Parade are pretty involved recordings. Prince had limits to what he could have physically done. Everything from mic placement to mixes would have been done to Prince's specifications, but studio intangables are a huge thing. Remember, a lot of engineers and studios get hired out simply because of vibe alone.

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Susan was a Sly fan, and a Prince face before getting hired on. She talks about sharing the same reference points.

Good points and I can't disagree (although I think Prince did many of the edits himself). Didn't know the last bit, so thanks for the info (this must have been in the newer books on Prince?).

[Edited 6/16/14 1:56am]

ufoclub said:

thedance said:

well whoever were responsible for the mastering back in the 80ies should be ashamed.

Terrible mastering back then - the CD's are awful........ please don't bring back those people..

Like ufoclub I am not sure Susan Rogers had anything to do with mastering the sound, she was a producer wasn't she?

Ok: School me if I need to be schooled?

Susan Rogers was a recording engineer, not a producer or arranger, and had no input as to the sound Prince was creating unless it was with the types of coloring the recording flow through the consoles and effects boards created. She did not master anything either. And as far as Femi goes, I remember him working as an engineer as well for two periods: Lovesexy era and then the npgmc era. They sound nothing alike! I had the chance to speak to Femi one on one at the Xenophobia celebration. He did say that he would try to influence Prince on the mixes, but Prince never listened. He did however sneak in some of his level adjustments of certain instrument or vocal tracks (down lower) when prince wasn't looking. Or so he joked.

However, Susan Rogers did critique Adonis & Batsheeba and is likely a main reason the entire song hasn't been heard by the masses. Shame, too. I see A&B as the epitome of "sexy, not dirty".