Of course I am assuming most fans think this but I do think that most of us think alot of great music was made during this time. Why do you guys think that is?

Because he worked with a lot of people and they had an input into what was written, recorded and released. Everyone kept him grounded and the quality was high. After a while, he started thinking he could do no wrong and it all went downhill for the most part.

Bighead said:

Because he worked with a lot of people and they had an input into what was written, recorded and released. Everyone kept him grounded and the quality was high. After a while, he started thinking he could do no wrong and it all went downhill for the most part.

not a huge fan but alot of good music was made then..

i will say the time era was one of his most creative and experimental ones

Bighead said:

Bighead said:

Because he worked with a lot of people and they had an input into what was written, recorded and released. Everyone kept him grounded and the quality was high. After a while, he started thinking he could do no wrong and it all went downhill for the most part.

I don't think it's so much the input they had in his music than the music they exposed him to: the role P's collaborators had in the music itself has been largely exagerated by fans while on the other hand everyone who was around P at the time said numerous time that he was always the main creative power behing his music. NOW It seems until 1984 P was only familiar with American funk, pop and rock music and post-punk/new wave/synthpop. Eric Leeds exposed him to jazz and W&L and probably Susannah as well exposed him to a variety of music including psychpop with oriental influences and possibly classical music (not sure who exposed him to classical, though, but Fink said that P listened to a lot of it in the second part of the 80's and actually SAMPLED a lot of it on GB, but too distorted for anyone to recognize). P also tripped a lot for example on Kate Bush in 1985, which was really another musical world for him. Until 1984 P's music was rooted in R&B and post-punk/new wave, then he started to add strings, horns, a full orchestra with Clare Fisher, and he started to try and emulate/integrate all those new musical influences in his work, hence the hypercreative aspect of his music at the time, going from jazz-funk experiments to Alexa De Paris and Crystal Ball (the song). After that it seems whoever he was working with didn't expose him to much new music or maybe he wasn't interested anymore, IDK, but for example P completely missed the electronica revolution of the 90's (though he mentionned enjoying Björk, but for example he had no clue who Tricky was in 1997 when Tricky was the most praised act in underground music at the time). Kamasutra is a good example of that: P tried to emulate classical music and the result was lame, while if he'd been exposed to the works of contemporary composers such as Philip Glass, Harold Budd, Steve Reich, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Gavin Bryars, Jon Hassell and others he could certainly have come up with something better than a synth caricature of outdated classical music.

So what we had from roughly 1984 to 1989 was an extremely talented young artist who was eager to expand his music vocabulary and try new things, while after that he kinda felt like he knew it all, remained in his comfort zone and started to reexplore his R&B roots again. P's music somewhat gained in complexity in the 90's, notably thanks to the contributions of Michael B Nelson and the Hornheads, but he kind of quit expanding his musical vocabulary and being curious about the whole world around him save mainstream R&B and indie American folk/rock (Ani DiFranco, Aimée Mann...). The only times when he went outside of his comfort zone after Kamasutra were The War and N.E.W.S., 2 of his most brilliant albums IMHO, so if he'd kept being curious about music there's no telling how creatively crazy his output could have been!

[Edited 5/14/14 22:16pm]

Ppenguin said:

2004-14 Meh!!! 2009-2014 double meh!!

that's not really true. okay he was awesome in the 80's, but he did nice things in 2004-2014 too.

to sum up:

- musicology (the song)

- 3121 (almost the whole album was good)

- lotusflow3r/mplsound (almost the whole album was very good)

- 2010 (I really start liking this album especially compassion, beginning endlessly, sticky like glue, laydown)

- cause and effect

- FUNK

- his songs with 3rdeyegirl are not bad (sounds like the chaos and disorder album)

so still plenty of good music. and still much more than many other artists would release in the same period. so don't be too hard on him, he still has his good moments.

my least fav period is the period with the rappers in the new power generation and rosie gaines. although I like most part of diamonds and pearls and the symbol album.

Guys, could we like... raise the level of the debate? Because "Meh double meh" and "This album is good and those songs are not bad"... no offense but those comments are meaningless, kinda primary school level of critical argumentation and expression of personal opinions. I don't mean to start a fight with u guys so please don't get mad at me but if we could skip all the "this song sucks " and "that album is good" comments and try and explain WHY we believe such thing is good and such thing isn't (or why we dislike or like them) then maybe at long last this forum could become an interesting place of debate.

Peace

databank said:

Ppenguin said:

databank said:

Guys, could we like... raise the level of the debate? Because "Meh double meh" and "This album is good and those songs are not bad"... no offense but those comments are meaningless, kinda primary school level of critical argumentation and expression of personal opinions. I don't mean to start a fight with u guys so please don't get mad at me but if we could skip all the "this song sucks " and "that album is good" comments and try and explain WHY we believe such thing is good and such thing isn't (or why we dislike or like them) then maybe at long last this forum could become an interesting place of debate.

Peace

Yeah youre right over the last decade he's done some very good stuff...unjust find the last decade so disjointed that I forget what came when.

What? Why?

databank said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

Ppenguin said:

databank said:

What? Why?

Some of 3121,Musicology,Loyusflower, NPGMC etc has been very good Why? How? ...but arguably some of it has been the worst of the worst Why? How?

82 1/2-84 was MUCH better.

databank said:

Because he was YOUNG & OPEN-MINDED.

Nikeze said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

This. He was young, hungry, talented and ambitious.

I don't think "Eric Leeds exposed him to jazz and W&L and probably Susannah as well exposed him to a variety of music including psychpop with oriental influences and possibly classical music". Prince already knew about that.

paulludvig said:

Nikeze said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

This. He was young, hungry, talented and ambitious.

I don't think "Eric Leeds exposed him to jazz and W&L and probably Susannah as well exposed him to a variety of music including psychpop with oriental influences and possibly classical music". Prince already knew about that.

That's what I've read in books/articles/interviews, I only know what I've read.

Ppenguin said:

databank said:

I don't understand what you mean...what are you querying?

Well what I said above: u can't just come and say this is good this is bad, it's meaningless, u have to defend/explain your opinion. Can u imagine buying a movies magazine and each review is one line-long: "Thor is good", "Star Trek is great", "Hulk really sucks". How many issues of that magazine would u buy?

databank said:

paulludvig said:

This. He was young, hungry, talented and ambitious.

I don't think "Eric Leeds exposed him to jazz and W&L and probably Susannah as well exposed him to a variety of music including psychpop with oriental influences and possibly classical music". Prince already knew about that.

That's what I've read in books/articles/interviews, I only know what I've read.

The '77 Lorin Park sessions were jazz influenced.

databank said:

Compared to what came after it?

I think Prince lost his focus quite a bit when he started working with the artists on Paisley Park, putting more time and effort into their affairs and also put a lot of his creative energy into creating a lot of "middle-of-the-road" type of contemporary pop he intended for other artists to sing. That seems to have distracted his artistic sensibilities. I mean, the same guy that did SOTT was within 1-2 years working on the Batman OST and making music like "Round and Round".

If you mean why he made so many great tracks during that specific time then I think it was just an optimal age for him . Most pop musicians hit the peak at that age (Stevie Wonder, David Bowie etc.). That's when they still have a lot of creative energy left, but have already developed the necessary skills for doing the type of music they have in mind. For that matter, by that age they're not going to be naive in their lyrics and stage presentation to the degree they might have been earlier on.

Nikeze said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

James Brown was at his creative peak in his 30s, and it lasted until he was about 40 imho.

Sly Stone was 28 when they released There's A Riot Going On. My Favourite of theirs. And 30 WHen Fresh came out. Almost just as good imo.

Miles Davis was 44 when Bitches Brew was released I think

John Lennon was 31 When he released Imagine.

Yeah, I guess the peak is often around late 20s to early 30s. And often it starts right after becoming 20. However I think it has alot to do with when your career starts. Cause everything changes after you get big. Your struggle gets different.

Replica said:

Nikeze said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

James Brown was at his creative peak in his 30s, and it lasted until he was about 40 imho.

Sly Stone was 28 when they released There's A Riot Going On. My Favourite of theirs. And 30 WHen Fresh came out. Almost just as good imo.

Miles Davis was 44 when Bitches Brew was released I think

John Lennon was 31 When he released Imagine.

Yeah, I guess the peak is often around late 20s to early 30s. And often it starts right after becoming 20. However I think it has alot to do with when your career starts. Cause everything changes after you get big. Your struggle gets different.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting subject. I mean for Prince I do think he knew the well runs dry so he absolutely cained it while at the peak of his powers. And fair play to him, because I think most after the success of something like 1999 and then PR would have got lazy.

And maybe your right, perhaps if you start later in life you still have that hot streak regardless of youth.

Nikeze said:

Replica said:

James Brown was at his creative peak in his 30s, and it lasted until he was about 40 imho.

Sly Stone was 28 when they released There's A Riot Going On. My Favourite of theirs. And 30 WHen Fresh came out. Almost just as good imo.

Miles Davis was 44 when Bitches Brew was released I think

John Lennon was 31 When he released Imagine.

Yeah, I guess the peak is often around late 20s to early 30s. And often it starts right after becoming 20. However I think it has alot to do with when your career starts. Cause everything changes after you get big. Your struggle gets different.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting subject. I mean for Prince I do think he knew the well runs dry so he absolutely cained it while at the peak of his powers. And fair play to him, because I think most after the success of something like 1999 and then PR would have got lazy.

And maybe your right, perhaps if you start later in life you still have that hot streak regardless of youth.

I think because James Brown was locked in for some years, and had to start from "scratch" more or less when he got out, he spent more time of his twenties getting noticed.

Also Prince was more active as a musician in 5 years, than most huge artists have been through their entire career.

Rick James put out his first record when he was 30.

I think it's more about just learning the trade within the first 5-10 years and then when you start perhaps stretching to other things you might lose your focus. Of course, during the 80s and the 90s trends were still changing rapidly, so many artists simply couldn't keep up their craft when things around them changed.

the 80s music was great all around because it was that special phase in culture when people were rejecting shitty corporate pop music and new unique sounds could thrive .. the music industry killed this era dead and we are back to a handful of shitty artists making crap music who dominate the airwaves .. think disco and then the death of disco .. pop music must die again .. smaller labels must rise again .. people need to stop buying music they hear on tv comercials and garbage like american idol and support small time music that is actually good and real sounding .. wb used to be great about producing artists that do not fit the pop mold but make great music .. prince was one of them .. prince is no longer an artist .. he is just product .. boring lifeless product for stupid people who have never heard good music .. nothing truly good since wb ..

the other reason prince was so good back then was because he had a great group of musicians he could steal ideas from all the time and who could embelish his ideas to their maximum potential .. people take the 'prince did everything himself' notion way to seriously .. its like an ok lead actor with an amazing supporting cast that makes the lead look better than he is .. prince cant hang without his talented musicians .. 20 years of post wb shit proves this fact beyond any doubt and will stand up in a court of law so dont even try to dismiss it as opinion ..

prince believed the bs that he could do it all himself .. he went from changing a band member here and there due to their leaving of their own valition .. to flat out firing his whole band every few years .. the dynamic shifted from all for one one for all to all for prince and no one else .. and the music has suffered ever since

[Edited 5/15/14 5:24am]

Nikeze said:

Replica said:

James Brown was at his creative peak in his 30s, and it lasted until he was about 40 imho.

Sly Stone was 28 when they released There's A Riot Going On. My Favourite of theirs. And 30 WHen Fresh came out. Almost just as good imo.

Miles Davis was 44 when Bitches Brew was released I think

John Lennon was 31 When he released Imagine.

Yeah, I guess the peak is often around late 20s to early 30s. And often it starts right after becoming 20. However I think it has alot to do with when your career starts. Cause everything changes after you get big. Your struggle gets different.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting subject. I mean for Prince I do think he knew the well runs dry so he absolutely cained it while at the peak of his powers. And fair play to him, because I think most after the success of something like 1999 and then PR would have got lazy.

And maybe your right, perhaps if you start later in life you still have that hot streak regardless of youth.

I wonder if he was a woman, would he still be in that zone for a longer time. Women in my opinion tend to be more open to their full life ie emotions, loves:family children friends etc and the in and outs of life in a way men to shut down on the things that make u a much more realized individual. Emotional openess is key to creative output.
.
Think Old Friends 4 Sale 1985 vs Old Friends 4 Sale 1994

TrevorAyer said:

the 80s music was great all around because it was that special phase in culture when people were rejecting shitty corporate pop music and new unique sounds could thrive .. the music industry killed this era dead and we are back to a handful of shitty artists making crap music who dominate the airwaves .. think disco and then the death of disco .. pop music must die again .. smaller labels must rise again .. people need to stop buying music they hear on tv comercials and garbage like american idol and support small time music that is actually good and real sounding .. wb used to be great about producing artists that do not fit the pop mold but make great music .. prince was one of them .. prince is no longer an artist .. he is just product .. boring lifeless product for stupid people who have never heard good music .. nothing truly good since wb ..

the other reason prince was so good back then was because he had a great group of musicians he could steal ideas from all the time and who could embelish his ideas to their maximum potential .. people take the 'prince did everything himself' notion way to seriously .. its like an ok lead actor with an amazing supporting cast that makes the lead look better than he is .. prince cant hang without his talented musicians .. 20 years of post wb shit proves this fact beyond any doubt and will stand up in a court of law so dont even try to dismiss it as opinion ..

prince believed the bs that he could do it all himself .. he went from changing a band member here and there due to their leaving of their own valition .. to flat out firing his whole band every few years .. the dynamic shifted from all for one one for all to all for prince and no one else .. and the music has suffered ever since

[Edited 5/15/14 5:24am]

Of course it's opinion. And an ill-founded one. Just listen to the old rehearsal boots. Prince is calling all the shots. Prince uses the band almost as just a sequencer he can talk to.

TrevorAyer said:

the 80s music was great all around because it was that special phase in culture when people were rejecting shitty corporate pop music and new unique sounds could thrive .. 1. the music industry killed this era dead and we are back to a handful of shitty artists making crap music who dominate the airwaves .. think disco and then the death of disco .. pop music must die again .. smaller labels must rise again .. people need to stop buying music they hear on tv comercials and garbage like american idol and support small time music that is actually good and real sounding .. wb used to be great about producing artists that do not fit the pop mold but make great music .. prince was one of them .. prince is no longer an artist .. he is just product .. boring lifeless product for stupid people who have never heard good music .. nothing truly good since wb ..

the other reason prince was so good back then was because he had a great group of musicians he could steal ideas from all the time and who could embelish his ideas to their maximum potential .. 2. people take the 'prince did everything himself' notion way to seriously .. its like an ok lead actor with an amazing supporting cast that makes the lead look better than he is .. prince cant hang without his talented musicians .. 20 years of post wb shit proves this fact beyond any doubt and will stand up in a court of law so dont even try to dismiss it as opinion ..

prince believed the bs that he could do it all himself .. he went from changing a band member here and there due to their leaving of their own valition .. to flat out firing his whole band every few years .. the dynamic shifted from all for one one for all to all for prince and no one else .. and the music has suffered ever since

[Edited 5/15/14 5:24am]

1. Independent music has never been bigger than today. The difference is that independent are actual independent as in having their own little studio in their own little apartment. The underground scenes are more in the bedrooms and internet rather than live instrumentation in clubs. Even though this still exists very much. Actually because of the streaming and downloading era, alot of labels don't put their money in developing artists. So artists are more on their own right now. Good thing is, they now have the technology to do it entirly by themselves without using very much money, and the sound quality will be alot better than Dirty Mind even if you record it in your living room. The bad thing is that it's mad difficult for artists to be heard through all that distraction we have today. And the competition is way different. It's not about who is best live, it's about who is delivering the most instantly addictive songs wether it's great hooks, deep bass or wild hihats... The game has changed. New rules. Music is is just adapting to the environment we're living in. If one thinks that music today sucks, one should make better music and make people love it? Why don't people love it? Because it's not good enough! Well I think it's good enough. Does my opinion matter if nobody else loves it? We can't blame people for having no clue. If they don't, then we need to educate them, and not hate on them.

2. I don't agree with this. He is best with a great band that's true, but he isn't wack without them. You can never prove that Prince got worse because he stopped working with The Revolution. However one can say that it has gone down hill since. That's a difference. The factors you decide are the main factors, might not be the main factors at all. It's just speculation. I've been listening to Wendy & Lisa albums, as well as Brown Mark and been checking out this FDeluxe thing just to try and find out what I think of it. It's not like they're proving to be some genuises that was the brain behind his music. Alot of their music sounded like Prince mild, and was using all these funky pop cliches that Prince had already abandoned. Comparing Slideshow with Sign of The Times... Slideshow sounds like generic 80s pop that tries to be avant garde with a little dramatic piano here and there, but that wah guitar is boring as F"#$ . Sign of The Times on the other hand is TOP NOTCH. And yeah they helped him with alot of songs for that album. But the end result compared is still that Prince beats the hell out of their duo work. Even his first album is imo better than all their albums.

It's obvious that The Revolution suffered more musically after Prince, than Prince after The Revolution. Atleast Prince has delivered a bunch of good songs, even though his albums as a whole usually has been very uneven. Prince recording the vocal arrangement of For You at the age of 19 is a great example of him being pretty damn good as an independent artist even before his style matured to the likes of Sexuality discussed in another thread.

No people are good in absolute vacum, as we are born social. It's in the human genes. However, even though he probably stole a whole lot of good stuff from band members. He could have easily done the same from other bands that he was competing against or favored. It's kinda like sampling, but playing it yourself instead. Everybody does it. Prince is not any different from anyone else when it comes to taking bits and pieces from other artists. He is just damn good at using it the right way. Or atleast he was.