OldFriends4Sale said:

lrn36 said:

People are acting like there is a correlation between the disbanding of the Revolution and the quality of Prince's music. I think either Prince was running out of ideas or changing his sound to keep up with the times regardless of the Revolution's presence. They could been kept around and he still would have done Batman, Graffiti Bridge, and D&P. Only now all of you would be saying, "Damn, Prince should have gotten rid of the Revolution. They were dragging him down."

The fact that none of the Revolution members did anything groundbreaking after leaving tells me they were out of ideas, too. All successful creative people have a time when their talent, vision, and ambitions line up perfectly with the larger cultural outlook and they burn hot for a moment. Then the culture changes and they either adapt or fall by the wayside.

history speaks for itself.

Prince talked about people in his band who would 'challenge' a direction or a sound or such, after that band/period, Prince really had a bunch of yes men. And everything happens as a result of something else, Batman could have been a different sounding album, Batman could have been followed or accompanied by Rave, the Graffiti Bridge movie could have been called something else(he did talk about the concept of this movie during 1985) maybe it would have happend soooner. If his cash flow wasn't low he probably would not have done D&P

.

Them doing anything groundbreaking doesn't mean anything. Many people (even them if you read things they've said about their place in his band and in music) don't believe they were meant to be the 'frontman' many people/gifts actually shine in a different place. If all those American Idols singers realized they all won't 'make it' they may audition for Anita Baker Cher Tina Turner or whoever else needs a back up singer/dancer/musician and their name and talent will shine then.

U put a bunch of people who were hungry with you and believed in your vision, together, you get an explosion of creativity. Point is, everyone who came after 1988 met SuperStar Prince, not the Prince that was still trying to make it. Many of them it was just a stopping point: Mayte wasn't even a fan of Prince, Tommy B was their to get a check like many of them, Tony M didn't respect Prince's cultural expression...feeling he needed to be 'blacker' etc so who you have around you or not can affect creative output and quality.

.

Another thing, Prince got a lot of inspiration for song writing/lyrics from talks and sharing with those in his circle and what was happening in life(his and theirs and outside of that) As well as female persuasion inspiration. Music reflects life etc so

Well, Wendy didn't like the inclusion of non musicians into the Revolution and Prince still did it. Just because he gave them the space to challenge his ideas doesn't mean he listened to them.

Wendy and Lisa are solid musicians and composers, but I haven't heard anything from them that would indicate a missed opportunity for Prince. All the outtakes of this era sound like variations of the sounds in Parade and SOTT. They're some great tracks in those outtakes, but nothing that pushed forward what they already created.

If the Revolution stayed around, Prince would still feel the need to adapt his sound to fit the changing times. He still would have incorporated all the things you don't like about the post Revolution era. Due to arguments over the direction of the music, Wendy and Lisa would have likely jumped ship like Brown Mark.

lrn36 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

history speaks for itself.

Prince talked about people in his band who would 'challenge' a direction or a sound or such, after that band/period, Prince really had a bunch of yes men. And everything happens as a result of something else, Batman could have been a different sounding album, Batman could have been followed or accompanied by Rave, the Graffiti Bridge movie could have been called something else(he did talk about the concept of this movie during 1985) maybe it would have happend soooner. If his cash flow wasn't low he probably would not have done D&P

.

Them doing anything groundbreaking doesn't mean anything. Many people (even them if you read things they've said about their place in his band and in music) don't believe they were meant to be the 'frontman' many people/gifts actually shine in a different place. If all those American Idols singers realized they all won't 'make it' they may audition for Anita Baker Cher Tina Turner or whoever else needs a back up singer/dancer/musician and their name and talent will shine then.

U put a bunch of people who were hungry with you and believed in your vision, together, you get an explosion of creativity. Point is, everyone who came after 1988 met SuperStar Prince, not the Prince that was still trying to make it. Many of them it was just a stopping point: Mayte wasn't even a fan of Prince, Tommy B was their to get a check like many of them, Tony M didn't respect Prince's cultural expression...feeling he needed to be 'blacker' etc so who you have around you or not can affect creative output and quality.

.

Another thing, Prince got a lot of inspiration for song writing/lyrics from talks and sharing with those in his circle and what was happening in life(his and theirs and outside of that) As well as female persuasion inspiration. Music reflects life etc so

Well, Wendy didn't like the inclusion of non musicians into the Revolution and Prince still did it. Just because he gave them the space to challenge his ideas doesn't mean he listened to them.

Wendy and Lisa are solid musicians and composers, but I haven't heard anything from them that would indicate a missed opportunity for Prince. All the outtakes of this era sound like variations of the sounds in Parade and SOTT. They're some great tracks in those outtakes, but nothing that pushed forward what they already created.

If the Revolution stayed around, Prince would still feel the need to adapt his sound to fit the changing times. He still would have incorporated all the things you don't like about the post Revolution era. Due to arguments over the direction of the music, Wendy and Lisa would have likely jumped ship like Brown Mark.

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

novabrkr said:

lrn36 said:

Well, Wendy didn't like the inclusion of non musicians into the Revolution and Prince still did it. Just because he gave them the space to challenge his ideas doesn't mean he listened to them.

Wendy and Lisa are solid musicians and composers, but I haven't heard anything from them that would indicate a missed opportunity for Prince. All the outtakes of this era sound like variations of the sounds in Parade and SOTT. They're some great tracks in those outtakes, but nothing that pushed forward what they already created.

If the Revolution stayed around, Prince would still feel the need to adapt his sound to fit the changing times. He still would have incorporated all the things you don't like about the post Revolution era. Due to arguments over the direction of the music, Wendy and Lisa would have likely jumped ship like Brown Mark.

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

How so? They just happened to be around at a time in Prince's career that a lot of us are particularly excited about?

paulludvig said:

novabrkr said:

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

How so? They just happened to be around at a time in Prince's career that a lot of us are particularly excited about?

You must have misunderstood something.

I'm not one of those people who believe W&L should be credited for Prince's artistic growth as such. My point was that it's unfair to criticize W&L for not taking Prince's music "further" when we're talking about a period of time that was relatively short and obviously so full of artistic innovation. The criticism seems almost bizarre to me if you just simply listen to the material and check out the documented recorded dates. Of course there was going to be some overlap between the outtakes and the released material that ended up on the albums, but if you don't hear progress there then what the hell do you hear? My comment was not about the "amount of influence" W&L might have had on his music.

paulludvig said:

novabrkr said:

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

How so? They just happened to be around at a time in Prince's career that a lot of us are particularly excited about?

happened to be around? seriously?

paulludvig said:

Of course it's opinion. And an ill-founded one. Just listen to the old rehearsal boots. Prince is calling all the shots. Prince uses the band almost as just a sequencer he can talk to.

.

Pur-lease. As if those musicians merely execute his plans. Miko has told about licks he played in jams during rehearsals ended up becoming the "inspiration" for other songs; others have told similar stories.

.

It is well-known Prince handed W&L skeletons of songs and told them to put their fairy dust on it.

paulludvig said:

The answer to the question "Why was '85-'87 such a great period?" is really the opposite of what people think. People have the idea that Prince in the 80's was surrounded by talented musicians and songwriters that fed him ideas. The quality of his output nosedived when Prince started to think he could do it all by himself. Quite the opposite! In the 80's he really did it all by himself almost entirely. The result is idiosyncratic and fun. Sometimes strange, but never forced. In the 90's he felt he had to update his sound and relied to much on other people to accomplish this. His music suffered because he invited other people's input. He lost his sound.

.

Nonsense. The difference is the one between someone who doesn't give a fuck about what can be a hit, and an artist who depserately searches for a hit. Listen to D&P and what you hear is someone desperate for a million-selling album. Hence him promoting it all over earth, hence him announcing a world-wide tour and then scrapping all dates that didn't sell out in one day.

.

And when that didn't really work, because D&P sold a mere 5 million despite all the hard work, he got angry and got pissed at WB and had one last fit of "I'll fucking do what I want" resulting in the sort-of comeback of 1994/95, and then when he got "free" he once again started to mimic ongoing trends. And thus you get R. Kelly on Emancipation, Santana on Rave, etc., mixed with P falling back on lazy templates. And thus you get P by the numbers, with a large dose of "this will do", except for a few occasions where he longs for critical praise and hauls out the most tired of artistic clichés, i.e. a jazz album. Post-1996 Prince has been either imitating someone else or himself, e.g. 3EG being basically a bland imitation of "rock Prince" that actually never gets beyond "Prince playing some of the most rockiest songs from his back catalogue".

novabrkr said:

lrn36 said:

Well, Wendy didn't like the inclusion of non musicians into the Revolution and Prince still did it. Just because he gave them the space to challenge his ideas doesn't mean he listened to them.

Wendy and Lisa are solid musicians and composers, but I haven't heard anything from them that would indicate a missed opportunity for Prince. All the outtakes of this era sound like variations of the sounds in Parade and SOTT. They're some great tracks in those outtakes, but nothing that pushed forward what they already created.

If the Revolution stayed around, Prince would still feel the need to adapt his sound to fit the changing times. He still would have incorporated all the things you don't like about the post Revolution era. Due to arguments over the direction of the music, Wendy and Lisa would have likely jumped ship like Brown Mark.

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

No doubt those outtakes were great. I would love it they made it to release, but I could see where Prince would think these songs have a "been there, done that quality" to them. Lovesexy with its harsh, disjointed sounds was a clear break from the lush, baroque music he made with W & L. I can see where Prince wanted to shake things up and not get too comfortable. In fact, Batman, Graffiti Bridge, and D & P were all sonically different for anything before. Its just that there were a lot of fans who didn't like the new direction.

lrn36 said:

novabrkr said:

I don't think this is valid criticism at all. The period they were involved in lasted only a few years and of course the point was to come up with a number of songs for upcoming releases that they could choose from. It's hardly like all those songs were in one single style, for that matter.

I wouldn't say a song like "In A Large Room With No Light" sounds like a "variation" of anything they had created before. If anything the whole ATWIAD / Parade era should function as a proof that Prince, together with W&L, were constantly reaching for new things then.

No doubt those outtakes were great. I would love it they made it to release, but I could see where Prince would think these songs have a "been there, done that quality" to them. Lovesexy with its harsh, disjointed sounds was a clear break from the lush, baroque music he made with W & L. I can see where Prince wanted to shake things up and not get too comfortable. In fact, Batman, Graffiti Bridge, and D & P were all sonically different for anything before. Its just that there were a lot of fans who didn't like the new direction.

I think I understand your point a bit better now, but... not entirely. I mean, let's give credit where credit's due. A song like "Christopher Tracy's Parade" , like it or not, was definitely something that took things to a new level. It's entirely different from anything Prince had released before it (as a composition and as something that had a new type of an approach to its arrangement). W&L had a lot of input at least on "Christopher Tracy's Parade", "Mountains" and "Sometimes It Snows In April", so I would hardly judge their input based on the outtakes alone.

Was your point more akin to Prince being capable of moving on and developing things further even without W&L being around? That W&L might have actually started to halt his progress had he not ditched them? Like he still might have been adding sitars and finger cymbals to his stuff by 88-89?

BartVanHemelen said:

paulludvig said:

The answer to the question "Why was '85-'87 such a great period?" is really the opposite of what people think. People have the idea that Prince in the 80's was surrounded by talented musicians and songwriters that fed him ideas. The quality of his output nosedived when Prince started to think he could do it all by himself. Quite the opposite! In the 80's he really did it all by himself almost entirely. The result is idiosyncratic and fun. Sometimes strange, but never forced. In the 90's he felt he had to update his sound and relied to much on other people to accomplish this. His music suffered because he invited other people's input. He lost his sound.

.

Nonsense. The difference is the one between someone who doesn't give a fuck about what can be a hit, and an artist who depserately searches for a hit. Listen to D&P and what you hear is someone desperate for a million-selling album. Hence him promoting it all over earth, hence him announcing a world-wide tour and then scrapping all dates that didn't sell out in one day.

.

And when that didn't really work, because D&P sold a mere 5 million despite all the hard work, he got angry and got pissed at WB and had one last fit of "I'll fucking do what I want" resulting in the sort-of comeback of 1994/95, and then when he got "free" he once again started to mimic ongoing trends. And thus you get R. Kelly on Emancipation, Santana on Rave, etc., mixed with P falling back on lazy templates. And thus you get P by the numbers, with a large dose of "this will do", except for a few occasions where he longs for critical praise and hauls out the most tired of artistic clichés, i.e. a jazz album. Post-1996 Prince has been either imitating someone else or himself, e.g. 3EG being basically a bland imitation of "rock Prince" that actually never gets beyond "Prince playing some of the most rockiest songs from his back catalogue".

"a mere 5 millions" Sorry don't wanna make fun of u but things get out of proportions on this forum, I keep reading that albums that sold 4M copies were failures and so on... Even back then P's sales were more than satisfiying, the only problem is that for some silly reason WB and Prince expected each album to do 10/15M copies à la Madonna, but Madonna would always leave 2/3 years for each album to sell that much, i.e. she basically sold as many copies of a single album in 3 years than P would sell copies of 3 albums in the same 3 years, maybe a little more because Madonna's music was obviously more accessible.

According to the various reports I've read Prince got mad at WB because he was pissed with NOT reaching that "mere" 5 millions, which according to the new contract was a the minimum to reach for him to get maximum cash in advance for the next album. That and Carmen Electra's failure (how anyone ever thought a single second that this one could sell more than 3 copies remains one of life's deepest mysteries to me alongside the big bang, black holes and the existence of God). Both P and WB were highly satisfied with D&P's performance as far as I've read. The stupid illusion was to believe that P could sell 5M+ albums a YEAR. That's the kind of bet even Madonna or Michael Jackson couldn't have won past maybe a year or 2 had they released an album every year. Promoting an album over a course of 2 years with numerous singles and an extensive world tour is how you maintain radio and TV airplay and reach a large amount of consumers: most very succesful albums don't sell 15M in the course of 6 months.

databank said:

"a mere 5 millions" Sorry don't wanna make fun of u but things get out of proportions on this forum, I keep reading that albums that sold 4M copies were failures and so on...

.

Considering the work he put in it, 5 million sales for D&P, a record designed at conquering the charts, is sort of a failure. 5 million was the requirement stipulated in Prince's $100 million contract, and one of the reasons it was ludicrous is because Prince only broke that number twice, with PR and D&P. (And Batman, but that one cannot count.) Those numbers look especially bad when comparing them to for instance Michael Jackson or even Madonna.

.

Even back then P's sales were more than satisfiying, the only problem is that for some silly reason WB and Prince expected each album to do 10/15M copies à la Madonna, but Madonna would always leave 2/3 years for each album to sell that much, i.e. she basically sold as many copies of a single album in 3 years than P would sell copies of 3 albums in the same 3 years, maybe a little more because Madonna's music was obviously more accessible.

.

I don't think it took that long:

- Madonna / 1983 / 10m

- Like A Virgin / 1984 / 21m

- True Blue / 1986 / 25m

- Like A Prayer / 1989 / 15m

.

That's 70m, and I bet a significant chunk of that number comes from 1980s sales, far beyond Prince's numbers.

.

According to the various reports I've read Prince got mad at WB because he was pissed with NOT reaching that "mere" 5 millions, which according to the new contract was a the minimum to reach for him to get maximum cash in advance for the next album.

.

P seemed to have forgotten how much effort went into reaching that number with D&P. I read an article mere days after P had signed that $100 million contract that pointed out exactly why it was insane: because it required sales numbers that were exceptions in Prince's career. The only way for P to fulfill that contract was to "do a D&P" over and over again.

.

Both P and WB were highly satisfied with D&P's performance as far as I've read.

.

I don't doubt that, and I can understand WB expecting P to have learned his lesson and hoping he'd apply the same work ethic to future projects, but P seemed to have immediately forgotten what actually went into D&P.

.

And the price for that "huge sale" is an album that I found to be a huge disappointment at the time, one which has aged badly. An era that P dismissed mere years later (remember the article that ended up being reprinted in the liner notes of TGE).

Great artists just have that white heat period don't they where everything falls in to place - their hungry, their talent, the team around them, the time, the influences. It's magical almost. It's not any one thing, it's all the factors coming together.

novabrkr said:

lrn36 said:

No doubt those outtakes were great. I would love it they made it to release, but I could see where Prince would think these songs have a "been there, done that quality" to them. Lovesexy with its harsh, disjointed sounds was a clear break from the lush, baroque music he made with W & L. I can see where Prince wanted to shake things up and not get too comfortable. In fact, Batman, Graffiti Bridge, and D & P were all sonically different for anything before. Its just that there were a lot of fans who didn't like the new direction.

I think I understand your point a bit better now, but... not entirely. I mean, let's give credit where credit's due. A song like "Christopher Tracy's Parade" , like it or not, was definitely something that took things to a new level. It's entirely different from anything Prince had released before it (as a composition and as something that had a new type of an approach to its arrangement). W&L had a lot of input at least on "Christopher Tracy's Parade", "Mountains" and "Sometimes It Snows In April", so I would hardly judge their input based on the outtakes alone.

Was your point more akin to Prince being capable of moving on and developing things further even without W&L being around? That W&L might have actually started to halt his progress had he not ditched them? Like he still might have been adding sitars and finger cymbals to his stuff by 88-89?

That is exactly what W&L did with Strange Relationship. It didn't add anything to the song. I would rather say it took something away. The hippy vibe was totally inappropriate to the lyrics. A really poor artistic choice. One almost feel that W&L had not grasped what the song was about. Prince made the right decision and burried W&L's contribution in the mix. ( and this by the way is one of the three songs W&L contributed to on an album containing 16 songs)

BartVanHemelen said:

paulludvig said:

Of course it's opinion. And an ill-founded one. Just listen to the old rehearsal boots. Prince is calling all the shots. Prince uses the band almost as just a sequencer he can talk to.

.

Pur-lease. As if those musicians merely execute his plans. Miko has told about licks he played in jams during rehearsals ended up becoming the "inspiration" for other songs; others have told similar stories.

.

It is well-known Prince handed W&L skeletons of songs and told them to put their fairy dust on it.

Try to use your ears for once instead of just quoting something you've read. Listen to those rehearsal boots. It's all there for everyone to hear.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

"a mere 5 millions" Sorry don't wanna make fun of u but things get out of proportions on this forum, I keep reading that albums that sold 4M copies were failures and so on...

.

Considering the work he put in it, 5 million sales for D&P, a record designed at conquering the charts, is sort of a failure. 5 million was the requirement stipulated in Prince's $100 million contract, and one of the reasons it was ludicrous is because Prince only broke that number twice, with PR and D&P. (And Batman, but that one cannot count.) Those numbers look especially bad when comparing them to for instance Michael Jackson or even Madonna.

.

.

P seemed to have forgotten how much effort went into reaching that number with D&P. I read an article mere days after P had signed that $100 million contract that pointed out exactly why it was insane: because it required sales numbers that were exceptions in Prince's career. The only way for P to fulfill that contract was to "do a D&P" over and over again.

.

Both P and WB were highly satisfied with D&P's performance as far as I've read.

.

I don't doubt that, and I can understand WB expecting P to have learned his lesson and hoping he'd apply the same work ethic to future projects, but P seemed to have immediately forgotten what actually went into D&P.

.

And the price for that "huge sale" is an album that I found to be a huge disappointment at the time, one which has aged badly. An era that P dismissed mere years later (remember the article that ended up being reprinted in the liner notes of TGE).

That's 70M in the 80's for Madonna (4 albums) against 51M for P in the 80's (10 albums).

OK, I'm mind-blown, I had no idea Madonna had sold THAT MUCH. On the other end she's part of the tp-selling 250M or more artists of all times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists#250_million_or_more_records), a VERY select club (7 artists) so maybe comparing P's sales to hers wasn't the cleverest thing I ever did ^^

BartVanHemelen said:

paulludvig said:

Of course it's opinion. And an ill-founded one. Just listen to the old rehearsal boots. Prince is calling all the shots. Prince uses the band almost as just a sequencer he can talk to.

.

Pur-lease. As if those musicians merely execute his plans. Miko has told about licks he played in jams during rehearsals ended up becoming the "inspiration" for other songs; others have told similar stories.

.

It is well-known Prince handed W&L skeletons of songs and told them to put their fairy dust on it.

Well we know more or less exactly who did what on what and while W&L have co-writing credits on a few brilliant songs, I wouldn't go as far as to say P handed them skeletons of songs when it comes to the tracks they didn't co-compose. They mostly added strings here and there and, more remarkably, background vocals with a very clever sense of "white" harmony that had its own sound and added a certain 3D to P's own typically "black" sense of harmony. But then again Michael B. Nelson added a sense of harmony and rich horns textures to P's music for years after that and I never hear anyone saying that P's music that included the Hornheads owed everything to Michael B. Nelson. I think there's a margin between saying that P's collaborators had and still have an impact on his sound and saying that P's music would lose its main qualities without those musicians' contributions. One could be tempted to say that Eric Leeds made 8 the cult album it has become and still, Eric is the first one to say that he mostly did what P told him to do and that he doesn't particularly like that album on top of it all.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

"a mere 5 millions" Sorry don't wanna make fun of u but things get out of proportions on this forum, I keep reading that albums that sold 4M copies were failures and so on...

.

Considering the work he put in it, 5 million sales for D&P, a record designed at conquering the charts, is sort of a failure. 5 million was the requirement stipulated in Prince's $100 million contract, and one of the reasons it was ludicrous is because Prince only broke that number twice, with PR and D&P. (And Batman, but that one cannot count.) Those numbers look especially bad when comparing them to for instance Michael Jackson or even Madonna.

.

.

P seemed to have forgotten how much effort went into reaching that number with D&P. I read an article mere days after P had signed that $100 million contract that pointed out exactly why it was insane: because it required sales numbers that were exceptions in Prince's career. The only way for P to fulfill that contract was to "do a D&P" over and over again.

.

Both P and WB were highly satisfied with D&P's performance as far as I've read.

.

I don't doubt that, and I can understand WB expecting P to have learned his lesson and hoping he'd apply the same work ethic to future projects, but P seemed to have immediately forgotten what actually went into D&P.

.

And the price for that "huge sale" is an album that I found to be a huge disappointment at the time, one which has aged badly. An era that P dismissed mere years later (remember the article that ended up being reprinted in the liner notes of TGE).

I think D&P was a disappointment to everyone back then. I mean I like it and I liked it back then but it's nowhere as mindblowing as anything from 82 to 88 or even a year later.

Strangely enough, Michael Kopplemann said once that the original mixes were brilliant and that P ruined them with too much overdubs. I'm not convinced when I listen to the D&P demos, though, but maybe I'd need to have them with a pristine sound quality to really compare.

The sales they've reported after the initial chart runs are over for albums are pretty accurate. What's "reported" after that is usually complete horseshit. Whether that's done by the P&R teams by those artists or overenthusiastic fans wanting to make their idols seem more successful than what they are I won't try to speculate on too much, but it seems that the realistic sales for most pop artists are at about 60-80% of the reported figures in sources like Wikipedia (for that matter, just check out what type of "sources" are actually linked to Wikipedia for those sales sometimes - it can be something from gossippy entertainment news sites or something just as silly).

MJ's back catalog sold about 1M copies per year in the US when albums were still selling and I think that's a pretty good yardstick for measuring other artists' sales. It's funny how they first doubled the estimation of how much MJ has sold worlwide sometime in the last decade and now according to "sources" like the Jackson family his worldwise sales have all of a sudden apparently tripled!

[Edited 5/18/14 12:15pm]

Nikeze said:

I think because he was in his mid to late 20's of age. A time when you've still got that youthful energy, drive....cockyness, but can back it up. Your mind is at it's most creative before the late 20's early 30's doubts start creeping in.

And most importantly, I think he had the savvy to know that, and he had the discipline to work himself bloody hard.

For me I think yes he did have others to influence, but it's more likely just feeding the monster the merest titbit, and he was then adding the meat and potatos and taking it to an end point. I imagine he was a fkin tornado around the studio at that time. Must have been incredible to be witness.

Completly agree. His music had that youthfull charm you only have in that time in your life. It was charming even when it some of it was crude. You can hear his love of what he was doing, you can hear the passion. You could hear the joy. And like you said, he could certainly back it up.

mordang said:

'Why was '85-'87 such a great period?'

We were young and the things we heared were fresh and new.

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing. Prince was leading the zeitgeist in the 80s. His influence was everywhere. NO artist can sustain that. Fine me one example of a musical artist with a 35 year career who is as good throughout (or more relevant to this thread - in the last decade of their career so far)! Prince hit a musical/creative peak with SOTT for sure. But to totally dismiss his ouput eversince (as some on the org like to do) is simply silly.

People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

The 90s had some great albums, yes D&P introduced some unwelcome Tony M but take two tracks off and it is awesome. needed editing but if you do (my track list would be different to yours perhaps) but still a great album. TGE is an awesome album!

Personally I think Prince's "problem" since leaving WB is that Prince cannot edit himself. He wants (or did for a while maybe not now) to put it all out there for out consumption - everything. Saying that though, *I* would rather have a wealth of material from unedited Prince to allow myself to put together playlists that *I* prefer anyway!

And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

Bart you are usually good with your facts so it might be me misreading this (bold bit) but the $100m contract came AFTER D&P and stipulated that for Prince to get a $10m advance for his next album (for up to 6 albums) the previous album would need to sell 5m copies. Not sure if that meant he got $10m advance for but clearly he didn't ever get that kind of advance again and that was a major reason for the fall out. The contract, based on Prince's sales performance throughout his career as opposed to D&P could never be achieved. Prince's ego just didn't register that!

BartVanHemelen said:

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Considering the work he put in it, 5 million sales for D&P, a record designed at conquering the charts, is sort of a failure. 5 million was the requirement stipulated in Prince's $100 million contract, and one of the reasons it was ludicrous is because Prince only broke that number twice, with PR and D&P. (And Batman, but that one cannot count.) Those numbers look especially bad when comparing them to for instance Michael Jackson or even Madonna.

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[Edited 5/19/14 0:35am]

Wow. There's just a huge divide that I think has a lot to do with a lot of personal factors because as much as 3121 has some really good songs on it, for a lot of 80's fans, comparing the two is hard to fathom. This isn't the best comparison, but it's kind of like reading someone compare Paul McCartney's new music to his 60's era work. There are fans of Bowie, or Iggy Pop, or Lou Reed, that also try and compare their later releases to their golden years, but it's rarely from the fans that originally heard it within the context of the same decade.

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Also, I would die for U is a pretty great song. I've heard people mention Take me with U as a filler track though. I like 'em all. The problem isn't that there's a weak track, it's more that they're weak incohesive records with a few standout tracks.

jaypotton said:

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing.

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This is a nonsensical argument.

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Also, nostalgia doesn't account for Prince's 1980s songs continuing to appeal to new listeners, whereas his more recent work is rightfully rejected for the mediocre tripe it is. Hell, even Prince knows this, hence his setlists being 75% songs that are 25/30 years old, with the odd recent one thrown in occasionally. Nobody is clamoring for Prince to play "Push", but when he plays "Electric Intercourse" (an unreleased 30 year old track) everyone goes nuts. That has got nothign to do with nostalgia, and everything with quality.

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Fine me one example of a musical artist with a 35 year career who is as good throughout (or more relevant to this thread - in the last decade of their career so far)!

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Johnny Cash's American Recordings period is just as important as his pioneering work when he was young.

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People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

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Nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find one good song on his albums. Hence them being utterly ignored even on the tours to promote them.

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The 90s had some great albums, yes D&P introduced some unwelcome Tony M but take two tracks off and it is awesome.

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No it isn't. D&P is largely unlistenable, and not just because of the dated sound.

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And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

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See above: if it was any good, Prince would be playing songs from it. He doesn't.

jaypotton said:

Bart you are usually good with your facts so it might be me misreading this (bold bit) but the $100m contract came AFTER D&P

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Which probably inspired the number. D&P basically showed WB (and P) what the result would be if P tailormade an album for the charts and heavily promoted it.

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The contract, based on Prince's sales performance throughout his career as opposed to D&P could never be achieved. Prince's ego just didn't register that!

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Which was my point. The three times P reached that 5 million goal was with exceptions: PR, Batman and D&P.

BartVanHemelen said:

jaypotton said:

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing.

.

This is a nonsensical argument.

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Also, nostalgia doesn't account for Prince's 1980s songs continuing to appeal to new listeners, whereas his more recent work is rightfully rejected for the mediocre tripe it is. Hell, even Prince knows this, hence his setlists being 75% songs that are 25/30 years old, with the odd recent one thrown in occasionally. Nobody is clamoring for Prince to play "Push", but when he plays "Electric Intercourse" (an unreleased 30 year old track) everyone goes nuts. That has got nothign to do with nostalgia, and everything with quality.

Actually I came to realize that most of my non-Prince fans friends find his post 1996 output much more appealing than his classic output save the few familiar hits à la Kiss. This has probably more to do with the modernity of the sound than with its quality but nonetheless if I have some friends at home I know I better play 2000's albums than 1980's albums.

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No it isn't. D&P is largely unlistenable, and not just because of the dated sound.

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And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

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See above: if it was any good, Prince would be playing songs from it. He doesn't.

jaypotton said:

mordang said:

'Why was '85-'87 such a great period?'

We were young and the things we heared were fresh and new.

People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

Hey now, I like Starfish and Coffee.

yeah .. nostalgia is is not a valid arguement .. 3121 would be a garbage album .. had he released anything post wb in place of his outstanding wb career, prince would be a nobody .. it is just toilet water music .. minimizing classic tracks such as I would die for you, tamborine, starfish and cofee and venus de milo is simply baffling

Thinking of the Op's question: why was '85-'87 such a great period? Well, women's periods usually last for a few day at most, se excuse me but a three YEARS long period has to be the GREATEST of them all!!!

jaypotton said:

mordang said:

'Why was '85-'87 such a great period?'

We were young and the things we heared were fresh and new.

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing. Prince was leading the zeitgeist in the 80s. His influence was everywhere. NO artist can sustain that. Fine me one example of a musical artist with a 35 year career who is as good throughout (or more relevant to this thread - in the last decade of their career so far)! Prince hit a musical/creative peak with SOTT for sure. But to totally dismiss his ouput eversince (as some on the org like to do) is simply silly.

People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

The 90s had some great albums, yes D&P introduced some unwelcome Tony M but take two tracks off and it is awesome. needed editing but if you do (my track list would be different to yours perhaps) but still a great album. TGE is an awesome album!

Personally I think Prince's "problem" since leaving WB is that Prince cannot edit himself. He wants (or did for a while maybe not now) to put it all out there for out consumption - everything. Saying that though, *I* would rather have a wealth of material from unedited Prince to allow myself to put together playlists that *I* prefer anyway!

And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

I don't believe (others has stated better) that nostalgic ideals have anything to do with it. Genius is genius.

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And I don't see any of those songs as week. It might not move you as it may move someone but doesn't make them week. IWD4U has a melody and movement that has a lot of emotion behind it. That one and Baby I'm A Star constantly remind me that these songs were created (not only for the movie, but for the breakout stardome they were dreaming of) One reason I love Our Destiny(Lisa Coleman) so much it fits that same drive

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Tamborine, I love for it's wild masturbatory self indulgence, it's class Prince,-Tick Tick Bang81 the wild drumming and sharp quick use of the fingercymbals. It's not long which make me like it even more. Venus de Milo is touching a piece meant 4 the movie and the feeling again I love, his piano playing I love just as much as his guitar solos. That song like Condition of the Heart/UTCM showcases his paino skills. touching.

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And Star Fish & Coffee I never saw as week. As much as I love SOTT/It/Forever In My Life, I can listen 2 Starfish & Coffee over and over, I love the image it paints (co-written by Susannah) the imagery and color never dulls.

databank said:

Thinking of the Op's question: why was '85-'87 such a great period? Well, women's periods usually last for a few day at most, se excuse me but a three YEARS long period has to be the GREATEST of them all!!!

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Uh. We'd have to excuse you for being that drastically misinformed about the female body, ovulation, and the reproductive system, to start with.... but then it's still hard to excuse the idea that Prince only had 3 great years...Controversy was 1981, 1999 was in 1982, and The Black Album in 1988....so he was on top for the better part of a decade.