You dont think that Prince has re-recording loads of his vault stuff and is going to release it do you. I mean he has done xtraluvable and large room etc. This could spell trouble for us fans?

Lyrical content aside, why would he do that?

Warners had/has the right to the original recordings Extraloveable and Large Room, so he couldn't release those.

(Still waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

Pentacle said:

Lyrical content aside, why would he do that?

Warners had/has the right to the original recordings Extraloveable and Large Room, so he couldn't release those.

(Still waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

what does that mean? waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

That was a release full of Warner Bros material, yet there weren't credited. And he probably didn't ask for permission.

lagantest said:

You dont think that Prince has re-recording loads of his vault stuff and is going to release it do you. I mean he has done xtraluvable and large room etc. This could spell trouble for us fans?

Prince re-recorded his ENTIRE Warners catalog some years back. Strangely enough, the very last song to be completed was "Soft & Wet", and there was a party held at Paisley Park to celebrate the completion of this project.

But these remasters/reissues won't contain those. There's no need. Those re-recordings were done at a time when Prince returning to Warners was unfathomable.

Militant said:

lagantest said:

You dont think that Prince has re-recording loads of his vault stuff and is going to release it do you. I mean he has done xtraluvable and large room etc. This could spell trouble for us fans?

Prince re-recorded his ENTIRE Warners catalog some years back. Strangely enough, the very last song to be completed was "Soft & Wet", and there was a party held at Paisley Park to celebrate the completion of this project.

But these remasters/reissues won't contain those. There's no need. Those re-recordings were done at a time when Prince returning to Warners was unfathomable.

Really? Are you sure about that? Your source? I know Prince threatened/promised to do that but I really do not think he would have bothered! How soul destroying would it be to re-record hundreds of songs!?!?!?!

jaypotton said:

Militant said:

Prince re-recorded his ENTIRE Warners catalog some years back. Strangely enough, the very last song to be completed was "Soft & Wet", and there was a party held at Paisley Park to celebrate the completion of this project.

But these remasters/reissues won't contain those. There's no need. Those re-recordings were done at a time when Prince returning to Warners was unfathomable.

Really? Are you sure about that? Your source? I know Prince threatened/promised to do that but I really do not think he would have bothered! How soul destroying would it be to re-record hundreds of songs!?!?!?!

The below post is courtesy of BorisFishpaw in 2006, who can always be considered reliable. He doesn't post here anymore, AFAIK, which is unfortunate.

Prince confirmed that he'd finished the lot in 1999/2000 (I can't remember
exactly when). If you're aware of Soft and Wet being re-recorded I'm surprised
you didn't know this, as it was the final song to be re-recorded (ironic,
since it was the first single). It was announced online that Prince had just
finished recording Soft and Wet, and that it was the last 'new master' to be
committed to tape, and the project to re-record every track from every WB album
was now complete. They had a big (private) wrap party at Paisley Park to
celebrate the completion of the project. They also mentioned that Larry had to
leave the room when Prince re-recorded some of the more 'explicit' old
material (I think they were talking about some of the Dirty Mind album 'new
masters' there... 'Head' and 'Sister' spring to mind).

Prince soon abandoned the idea of releasing 'new-master' versions of every
album as originally intended. But there were a few occasions where it looked
like a 'best of' collection of some of the 'new masters' might see the light
of day.

Also, it seems that the project was done over a 6-7 year period with quite a bit of assistance from Morris Hayes, and was started as early as 1993. The re-recorded version of "Kiss" was premiered at Paisley Park after the first Celebration (the one where fans got to vote on what tracks would appear on Crystal Ball II).


That information came from Neversin, another reliable poster.

And a bit more from Boris, after being questioned about it....

Prince says he's done it, NPGMC says he's done it, Rhonda, Larry,
Morris, Kirky, Marva, Rev, The Hornheadz and others have all said they've played
on most of the tracks, and Hans Buff and Femi Jiya engineered most of the
sessions

lagantest said:

Pentacle said:

Lyrical content aside, why would he do that?

Warners had/has the right to the original recordings Extraloveable and Large Room, so he couldn't release those.

(Still waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

what does that mean? waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

It means somebody doesn't understand the original Warners contract. It would seem obvious that Warners only owned the songs Prince gave them. If Warners actually owned unreleased songs, he would've had to pay them for Crystal Ball. He re-recorded Extra Lovable and Large Room, because he doesn't care about the original recordings. There was a reason there is a sample of Jam Of The Year in Movie Star on Crystal Ball...he simply likes to devalue his old recordings as much as he can.

stillwaiting said:

lagantest said:

what does that mean? waiting for the inside story on the Crystal Ball release...)

It means somebody doesn't understand the original Warners contract. It would seem obvious that Warners only owned the songs Prince gave them. If Warners actually owned unreleased songs, he would've had to pay them for Crystal Ball. He re-recorded Extra Lovable and Large Room, because he doesn't care about the original recordings. There was a reason there is a sample of Jam Of The Year in Movie Star on Crystal Ball...he simply likes to devalue his old recordings as much as he can.

We all know Prince is insane, so that could well be the case.

Anyway, 'Good Love' and 'Tell Me How U Wanna Be Done' (on Kirky J's Bsides Remix) had already been released by Warner, so how does that work?

(And I don't mind the sample in Movie Star, but butchering Good Love like that was, well, butchery)

The OP's theory is absurd but regarding the ownership of the non-released tracks it's quite complex. Boris once said P owned the rights to the non-released WB-era stuff and I concurr with Militant regarding the fact that Boris is one of the most reliable sources we ever got here, so I always believed that to be the case and CB and NPGMC Year 1 seemed to confirm it.

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

So who's to be believed? Boris or Alan? I'd tend to think Alan is more reliable in the end when it comes to contractual things like this. Boris may have made a mistake, it happens to the best.

So from those conflicting info I choose to believe Alan Leeds and then it means that the WB tracks on CB and NPGMC (which anyway both included several tracks that had been released by WB, so there was no ambiguity about who owned those at least: the Come and TGE remixes, Interactive, Good Love, Horny Pony, Thieves In The Temple and the Undertaker tracks belonged to WB, no doubt about that) were released without their permission: P just fucked them over, betting they wouldn't move in order to avoid bad publicity and indeed they didn't, at least up to 2001. But it's also possible that they sent him a couple of C&D's along the way, which could explain the cancellation of Roadhouse Garden, Crystal Ball II and the abrupt change of formula in NPGMC in 2002: basically WB could have told him something like "cut the crap now and we'll turn a blind eye on the material you've already released in a breach of contract, keep up the crap and we'll see you in court". Prince may have won the publicity war on that one but he'd never have won the legal battle and he knew it so he cut the crap. Of course this is all speculation.

Anyway he got everything back now so there's no debate anymore about what he now can do, only about what he could do between 96 and now.

databank said:

The OP's theory is absurd but regarding the ownership of the non-released tracks it's quite complex. Boris once said P owned the rights to the non-released WB-era stuff and I concurr with Militant regarding the fact that Boris is one of the most reliable sources we ever got here, so I always believed that to be the case and CB and NPGMC Year 1 seemed to confirm it.

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

So who's to be believed? Boris or Alan? I'd tend to think Alan is more reliable in the end when it comes to contractual things like this. Boris may have made a mistake, it happens to the best.

So from those conflicting info I choose to believe Alan Leeds and then it means that the WB tracks on CB and NPGMC (which anyway both included several tracks that had been released by WB, so there was no ambiguity about who owned those at least: the Come and TGE remixes, Interactive, Good Love, Horny Pony, Thieves In The Temple and the Undertaker tracks belonged to WB, no doubt about that) were released without their permission: P just fucked them over, betting they wouldn't move in order to avoid bad publicity and indeed they didn't, at least up to 2001. But it's also possible that they sent him a couple of C&D's along the way, which could explain the cancellation of Roadhouse Garden, Crystal Ball II and the abrupt change of formula in NPGMC in 2002: basically WB could have told him something like "cut the crap now and we'll turn a blind eye on the material you've already released in a breach of contract, keep up the crap and we'll see you in court". Prince may have won the publicity war on that one but he'd never have won the legal battle and he knew it so he cut the crap. Of course this is all speculation.

Anyway he got everything back now so there's no debate anymore about what he now can do, only about what he could do between 96 and now.

This does all start to make some sort of sense and would explain why after CB we didn't get much more from the Vault. I too would trust Alan Leeds as a source - he was president of Paisley Park Records for f&%k sake!!!!!

Wow is the only reaction I have to that! Can't quite believe he could be bothered!!!!

Militant said:

jaypotton said:

The below post is courtesy of BorisFishpaw in 2006, who can always be considered reliable. He doesn't post here anymore, AFAIK, which is unfortunate.

Prince confirmed that he'd finished the lot in 1999/2000 (I can't remember
exactly when). If you're aware of Soft and Wet being re-recorded I'm surprised
you didn't know this, as it was the final song to be re-recorded (ironic,
since it was the first single). It was announced online that Prince had just
finished recording Soft and Wet, and that it was the last 'new master' to be
committed to tape, and the project to re-record every track from every WB album
was now complete. They had a big (private) wrap party at Paisley Park to
celebrate the completion of the project. They also mentioned that Larry had to
leave the room when Prince re-recorded some of the more 'explicit' old
material (I think they were talking about some of the Dirty Mind album 'new
masters' there... 'Head' and 'Sister' spring to mind).

Prince soon abandoned the idea of releasing 'new-master' versions of every
album as originally intended. But there were a few occasions where it looked
like a 'best of' collection of some of the 'new masters' might see the light
of day.

databank said:

The OP's theory is absurd but regarding the ownership of the non-released tracks it's quite complex. Boris once said P owned the rights to the non-released WB-era stuff and I concurr with Militant regarding the fact that Boris is one of the most reliable sources we ever got here, so I always believed that to be the case and CB and NPGMC Year 1 seemed to confirm it.

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

So who's to be believed? Boris or Alan? I'd tend to think Alan is more reliable in the end when it comes to contractual things like this. Boris may have made a mistake, it happens to the best.

So from those conflicting info I choose to believe Alan Leeds and then it means that the WB tracks on CB and NPGMC (which anyway both included several tracks that had been released by WB, so there was no ambiguity about who owned those at least: the Come and TGE remixes, Interactive, Good Love, Horny Pony, Thieves In The Temple and the Undertaker tracks belonged to WB, no doubt about that) were released without their permission: P just fucked them over, betting they wouldn't move in order to avoid bad publicity and indeed they didn't, at least up to 2001. But it's also possible that they sent him a couple of C&D's along the way, which could explain the cancellation of Roadhouse Garden, Crystal Ball II and the abrupt change of formula in NPGMC in 2002: basically WB could have told him something like "cut the crap now and we'll turn a blind eye on the material you've already released in a breach of contract, keep up the crap and we'll see you in court". Prince may have won the publicity war on that one but he'd never have won the legal battle and he knew it so he cut the crap. Of course this is all speculation.

Anyway he got everything back now so there's no debate anymore about what he now can do, only about what he could do between 96 and now.

could be, but obviously it would depend on what is in the contract. Warners hated Prince so much that I'm shocked that if they really owned the outtakes that they didn't sue him for Crystal Ball. But as you mention, now that they are in bed together now, it matters llittle now. I just hope the remasters are not ruined by overcompressed files. The first remaster of Duran Duran's Rio is fantastic, but then the second one done as a 2 disc set is pretty bad.

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

The OP's theory is absurd but regarding the ownership of the non-released tracks it's quite complex. Boris once said P owned the rights to the non-released WB-era stuff and I concurr with Militant regarding the fact that Boris is one of the most reliable sources we ever got here, so I always believed that to be the case and CB and NPGMC Year 1 seemed to confirm it.

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

So who's to be believed? Boris or Alan? I'd tend to think Alan is more reliable in the end when it comes to contractual things like this. Boris may have made a mistake, it happens to the best.

So from those conflicting info I choose to believe Alan Leeds and then it means that the WB tracks on CB and NPGMC (which anyway both included several tracks that had been released by WB, so there was no ambiguity about who owned those at least: the Come and TGE remixes, Interactive, Good Love, Horny Pony, Thieves In The Temple and the Undertaker tracks belonged to WB, no doubt about that) were released without their permission: P just fucked them over, betting they wouldn't move in order to avoid bad publicity and indeed they didn't, at least up to 2001. But it's also possible that they sent him a couple of C&D's along the way, which could explain the cancellation of Roadhouse Garden, Crystal Ball II and the abrupt change of formula in NPGMC in 2002: basically WB could have told him something like "cut the crap now and we'll turn a blind eye on the material you've already released in a breach of contract, keep up the crap and we'll see you in court". Prince may have won the publicity war on that one but he'd never have won the legal battle and he knew it so he cut the crap. Of course this is all speculation.

Anyway he got everything back now so there's no debate anymore about what he now can do, only about what he could do between 96 and now.

could be, but obviously it would depend on what is in the contract. Warners hated Prince so much that I'm shocked that if they really owned the outtakes that they didn't sue him for Crystal Ball. But as you mention, now that they are in bed together now, it matters llittle now. I just hope the remasters are not ruined by overcompressed files. The first remaster of Duran Duran's Rio is fantastic, but then the second one done as a 2 disc set is pretty bad.

Major records companies executives don't act out of love or hate, they make business decisions that may ruin their careers if things go bad, or make 'em very rich if things go well.

Crystal Ball and NPGMC didn't represent a real competion for WB-owned material: they were costly packages aimed at the most hardcore fans, it's not like P had released a greatest hits CD with the WB masters of all his hits on it, or rereleased PR on NPG Records.

On the other hand suing P would have generated a lot of costs in lawyers and generated a lot of bad publicity for them, the "slave owners" oppresing the artists, all that. They would have won the case but many artists in the business, as well as the public opinion, could have resented them for that. And fact is that they'd had enough bad publicity when P was bashing them continuously in the media between 93 and 96, so I think in the late 90's they were glad it was over and really didn't want more of that. Let's not forget also that several other important artists were dissatisfied with the change of management at WB in the mid-90's and left the label at the same time as P (though without making a public scandal of it the way Prince did), so WB had to rebuild its image of being an "artist friendly" label, and suing one of their ex major artists certainly wasn't the best way of doing that ^^

So EVENTUALLY they probably either sent a C&D or kindly made a phonecall to P to tell him that they were OK with him playing a bit with their properties for a short time but that they would eventually have to react if he pushed it too far, and both parties certainly agreed to avoid a costly and embarrassing legal battle: WB by not making a fuss and P by stopping releasing vault and WB material.

WB likely had no knowledge of what is or isn't in the Vault.

Prince re-recorded Extraloveable, etc. because he viewed it as a demo, or just old. His interest was the song (probably also to sanitize it), not in a rare unreleased 80's era track.

WB's rights to Prince's live recordings were probably signed over as exclusive, with a first right to put out recordings featuring songs they own the rights to. His deal probably specified this.

The only way they own that era of the Vault, is if Prince and his studio became subsidiaries of WB, and he was on salary to develop and produce open ended work. So one similar example would be Eddie Murphy, where he's signing a production deal to produce a set amount of projects, and rights to anything he develops. The studio in that case pays huge money for the deal, and fronts the money for future projects, then essentially provides the office, the staff, the staplers, the photocopiers, and they own every sheet of paper. Every script, finished or unfinished, they would have first right to put out. They don't own every joke Eddie told in the 80's, just the projects submitted for potential distribution, developed on their dime. If they turn down putting the stuff out, Eddie can wait until his deal is up, and go across town and sell it again.

If Prince had this kind of deal, WB doesn't just own the rights to Prince's masters, they literally own every piece of tape, the equipment, some instruments, as if Prince was a WB employee. I don't think that was the case. Instead he had master pick up deals, where the label fronts costs, and you deliver music they can profit off of, along with exclusive rights to your musical releases, and an exclusive on his output. I think all of Prince's songwriting was with WB controlled artists too, right? Even Stevie Nicks. So that would explain that. Meanwhile, his demos, sketches, ideas were all his *unless* he created the copyright for them in a recording studio contracted by WB for the purposes of creating a specific release, because in that case, anything he recorded for say, Controversy, released or unreleased, would be WB's. He probably wouldn't even have the tapes.

AS for rerecording - the new versions probably already sound more dated than the originals.

databank said:

(...)

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

(...)

WB doesn't own the intellectual property rights to the live material but co-owned the intellectual property rights on the songs performed in those years. I say co-owned because the composer (mostly Prince in this case) can not loose his intellectual property rights (and the heirs not until 70 years after the death of the composer). If someone else covers a song composed by Prince, s/he can only release that cover with the permission of WB and Prince. If Prince wanted to re-release a song he composed that was previously released by WB (either the same version, or a live version or a cover-version) he has to get permission of WB as co-owner of the intellectual property rights.

The contracts in which Prince gave WB the co-ownership of the intellectual property rights to his songs (from ' For You' up to ' Chaos And Disorder') were most likely only targeted at the songs on the master-tapes that are used to manufacture the actual release (the publication). Hence the whole focus of Prince on regaining his rights of the mastertapes. In that sense, all recordings that were not part of the mastertapes may not even have been part of the contracts. So for example WB didn't get the intellectual property rights to a song like ExtraLoveable. If so, Boris and Alan were both right!

But, I have not read the actual contracts between Prince and WB so have no clue what they agreed upon. My view on the matter is based upon several contracts between artists and publishing companies I have read in my career...

treehouse said:

(...)

If Prince had this kind of deal, WB doesn't just own the rights to Prince's masters, they literally own every piece of tape, the equipment, some instruments, as if Prince was a WB employee. I don't think that was the case. Instead he had master pick up deals, where the label fronts costs, and you deliver music they can profit off of, along with exclusive rights to your musical releases, and an exclusive on his output. I think all of Prince's songwriting was with WB controlled artists too, right? Even Stevie Nicks. So that would explain that. Meanwhile, his demos, sketches, ideas were all his *unless* he created the copyright for them in a recording studio contracted by WB for the purposes of creating a specific release, because in that case, anything he recorded for say, Controversy, released or unreleased, would be WB's. He probably wouldn't even have the tapes.

AS for rerecording - the new versions probably already sound more dated than the originals.

You're spot on. It is especially the recording studio contracts that define who (co-)owns the intellectual property rights to the recorded material. The publishiong company invests in the artist by renting a studio (and equipment and personell) and that investment has to be returned by the intellectual property rights. That is how it usually works, especially with new artists...

Imagine the record company builds you a very private studiocomplex! How much do you have to give up for something like that?

roverlo said:

If someone else covers a song composed by Prince, s/he can only release that cover with the permission of WB and Prince. If Prince wanted to re-release a song he composed that was previously released by WB (either the same version, or a live version or a cover-version) he has to get permission of WB as co-owner of the intellectual property rights.

Everything I've ever read or heard regarding cover versions differs from what you say.

From what I understand, anyone can cover any released song as long as they pay royalties and don't change or re-arrange the song in any significant way. If the song is re-arranged, permission is required.

Unreleased material also requires the permission of the rights holder(s) to cover, regardless of changes or lack thereof.

Is that what you meant?

Loving this thread and all the delicious speculation!

Prince re-recording old songs wouldn't be shocking...it would be predictable. That's the problem. Shock value has nothing to do with it.

djThunderfunk said:

From what I understand, anyone can cover any released song as long as they pay royalties and don't change or re-arrange the song in any significant way. If the song is re-arranged, permission is required.

Exactly right.

Also, not sure if it's been mentioned but the motivation here is that WB was going to reissue this with or without Prince, because of a 35 year window. If they didn't do it, they would have lost their rights. You're going to see labels doing a lot of fake limited edition releases so they can retain rights.

treehouse said:

WB likely had no knowledge of what is or isn't in the Vault.

.

Except that Prince often submitted records that ended up different on release or remained unreleased. I wouldn't be surprised if those also became "property of WB" in some way, since these were "paid for" by WB: Prince gets an advance; Prince submits songs x, y and z; songs x, y and z are considered to be property of WB now.

treehouse said:

WB likely had no knowledge of what is or isn't in the Vault.

Prince re-recorded Extraloveable, etc. because he viewed it as a demo, or just old. His interest was the song (probably also to sanitize it), not in a rare unreleased 80's era track.

WB's rights to Prince's live recordings were probably signed over as exclusive, with a first right to put out recordings featuring songs they own the rights to. His deal probably specified this.

The only way they own that era of the Vault, is if Prince and his studio became subsidiaries of WB, and he was on salary to develop and produce open ended work. So one similar example would be Eddie Murphy, where he's signing a production deal to produce a set amount of projects, and rights to anything he develops. The studio in that case pays huge money for the deal, and fronts the money for future projects, then essentially provides the office, the staff, the staplers, the photocopiers, and they own every sheet of paper. Every script, finished or unfinished, they would have first right to put out. They don't own every joke Eddie told in the 80's, just the projects submitted for potential distribution, developed on their dime. If they turn down putting the stuff out, Eddie can wait until his deal is up, and go across town and sell it again.

If Prince had this kind of deal, WB doesn't just own the rights to Prince's masters, they literally own every piece of tape, the equipment, some instruments, as if Prince was a WB employee. I don't think that was the case. Instead he had master pick up deals, where the label fronts costs, and you deliver music they can profit off of, along with exclusive rights to your musical releases, and an exclusive on his output. I think all of Prince's songwriting was with WB controlled artists too, right? Even Stevie Nicks. So that would explain that. Meanwhile, his demos, sketches, ideas were all his *unless* he created the copyright for them in a recording studio contracted by WB for the purposes of creating a specific release, because in that case, anything he recorded for say, Controversy, released or unreleased, would be WB's. He probably wouldn't even have the tapes.

AS for rerecording - the new versions probably already sound more dated than the originals.

Well it was no secret that some material on CV and NPGMC dated back to the WB years, the press covered it for one thing. And WB knew what songs they had already released that were rereleased by P on those 2 projects.

P's songwriting was something else entirely: they could have owned every recorded work, studio or live, but songwriting was beyond their reach, and at the time P wrote songs for numerous non-WB artists. P could also act as a "producer" in total freedom. What he couldn't do without WB's permission is appear on tape playing any instrument. When he would also play on the released versions, either WB would give a "Prince appears courtesy of" permission, or P wouldn't be credited for the instruments he played (WB of course knew but if P wasn't credited they could turn a blind eye on it and avoid conflict).

roverlo said:

databank said:

(...)

Now the thing is that Alan Leeds said later that Prince couldn't release any live recording from 78-96 without WB agreeing to it. If this is true it's safe to assume this means that WB owned everything P had recorded during those years, because if they owned the rights to the live material how could they not own studio material?

(...)

WB doesn't own the intellectual property rights to the live material but co-owned the intellectual property rights on the songs performed in those years. I say co-owned because the composer (mostly Prince in this case) can not loose his intellectual property rights (and the heirs not until 70 years after the death of the composer). If someone else covers a song composed by Prince, s/he can only release that cover with the permission of WB and Prince. If Prince wanted to re-release a song he composed that was previously released by WB (either the same version, or a live version or a cover-version) he has to get permission of WB as co-owner of the intellectual property rights.

The contracts in which Prince gave WB the co-ownership of the intellectual property rights to his songs (from ' For You' up to ' Chaos And Disorder') were most likely only targeted at the songs on the master-tapes that are used to manufacture the actual release (the publication). Hence the whole focus of Prince on regaining his rights of the mastertapes. In that sense, all recordings that were not part of the mastertapes may not even have been part of the contracts. So for example WB didn't get the intellectual property rights to a song like ExtraLoveable. If so, Boris and Alan were both right!

But, I have not read the actual contracts between Prince and WB so have no clue what they agreed upon. My view on the matter is based upon several contracts between artists and publishing companies I have read in my career...

No, u're confusing everything. WB never had any right on the songs/lyrics as compositions. What they could claim ownership of was any recorded material, either studio or live. Anyone can cover a song without anyone's permission as long as they pay the royalties to ASCAP or BMI. U can cover any Prince song tomorrow and release it: as long as u pay no one can stop u. Prince complained about this numerous times, by the way, but that's the law.

Seeing how over the years assumptions become statements in Prince's fans world is amazing...

djThunderfunk said:

roverlo said:

If someone else covers a song composed by Prince, s/he can only release that cover with the permission of WB and Prince. If Prince wanted to re-release a song he composed that was previously released by WB (either the same version, or a live version or a cover-version) he has to get permission of WB as co-owner of the intellectual property rights.

Everything I've ever read or heard regarding cover versions differs from what you say.

From what I understand, anyone can cover any released song as long as they pay royalties and don't change or re-arrange the song in any significant way. If the song is re-arranged, permission is required.

Unreleased material also requires the permission of the rights holder(s) to cover, regardless of changes or lack thereof.

Is that what you meant?

What one isn't allowed to do is to cover unreleased material one someone put their hands on, because that would constitute releasing a song without its composers' consent. In that regard, the 2 covers of Extraloveable that were leaked on Youtube before Prince released it in 2011 (one live by !!!, covered live and put online by fans, and the music video by this band I forgot the name of) were illegal and it's likely P rerecorded it and released it in order to claim ownership on the song because he was pissed people were covering it when it wasn't even released in the first place.

djThunderfunk said:

Everything I've ever read or heard regarding cover versions differs from what you say.

From what I understand, anyone can cover any released song as long as they pay royalties and don't change or re-arrange the song in any significant way. If the song is re-arranged, permission is required.

.

I wouldn't be surprised that recording contracts now prohibit artists of releasing "cover" versions of their own songs withing X amount of years of said contract ending, so labels aren't confronted with an artist leaving them and then seeing him re-record a bunch of songs and releasing those as a greatest hits album that will compete in the market with their property.

.

Recording contracts often contain odd clauses. RHCP left EMI and went to WB, but EMI had the right to release a new "Greatest Hits" and could pick one of their new songs to be included. Which wouldn't have been such an issue, except that RHCP then scored a massive hit with "Under The Bridge" -- and thus EMI now could release a best of compilation that included a massive hit that was recorded for a completely different record company.

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Don't also forget that plenty of outtakes are worth far less when they're not associated with the album they were initially slated for. An Prince outtake collection would only interest hardcore fans (an ever dwindling group), whereas those same outtakes could provide far more sales when they're coupled with well-known albums.

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Also don't forget that plenty of legendary unreleased albums are only partly unreleased when it comes to P. I woudl love to get a pristine version of Rebirth Of The Flesh, but I'd really want a pristine version of the entire Camille album, to be honest. Same for Dream Factory, the original Rave,...