getting the 8/3/83 video back in 1986.

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

databank said:

4DF did stranger things than that, though...

Fair enough. I have very sketchy knowledge of the various players in the Prince bootleg world, so I always just assumed that the received opinion of 4DF as heros, liberating the boots from the evil money grabbing bastards, was correct. What kind of stuff would they do? I'm familiar with the practice of adding stuff on to the end of bootlegs that doesn't really fit from Sabotage, who seem to do it quite often (I gather they weren't particularly liked in the fan community?) so it seemed plausible that the same trick might have been done years before with Charade.

4DF and others did an awesome job improving the quality of numerous boots and the fact that they did this 4 free, a true fan's job for other fans, of course deserves praise and I'm very grateful to this devoted team for the job they've done (and very sad they've stopped doing it but few people volunteer forever, they have lives, too). I'm only mad at them for 2 reasons: they did an awesome job "remastering" The Sacrifice Of Victore and Corporate World and at the same time butchered both: TSOV by removing the fans interviews segues and CW by replacing the original version of My Summertime Thang by a fanmade remix compiling bith circulating versions. While I can understand the fact that they wanted to offer an extended version of MST and that some fans r really happy to enjoy the SOV show without the segues, a "purist" like me can't do anything with those releases. Thing is that, as said above, they didn't have any duration constraint since it was all digital (so they could have released BOTH their tinkered versions and the original ones altogether) and that before they edited/remixed those 2 releases they had to "remaster" them so the crystal clear versions of the originals exist anyway. Therefore it means that those original versions with a crystal clear sound are sleeping on someone's hard drive when they could be living in ours. I don't understand the logic behind this but in the end I still have to listen to my poor sounding version of TSOV and I had to replace their version of MST by the lower quality version I had before in order to keep CW as intended, and that really pisses me off. Nonetheless dozens of other releases they offered us r brilliant and all hails to them for that, but I'm still waiting for them to leak the pre-tinkered versions of the "remastered" TSOV and CW

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

olb99 said:

Conspiracy, I tell you!

This question arose in a thread here at the time of Parade Demos, and a mooted response was that Heaven wasn't actually on the original tape, and it was just another outtake tacked on to the end of the bootleg. I guess it might have been done to make the two vinyl sides seem more "even" in quantity given that the A side has eight tracks and the B only four.

Exactly. Let's see...

Side A of "Charade" ("Little Girl Wendy's Parade" to "Old Friends 4 Sale") = 25:06

Side B of "Charade" ("In All My Dreams" to "Heaven") = 24:21

Looks like a 50-minute cassette tape...

Let's say the full/complete version of "Heaven" is longer (or way longer) than 7:12. It might have come from another tape, but, at the time, there weren't many studio outtakes, I guess, so they had to choose from one of the rare outtakes that were already circulating in 1986-87. And cut/edit it.

olb99 said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

This question arose in a thread here at the time of Parade Demos, and a mooted response was that Heaven wasn't actually on the original tape, and it was just another outtake tacked on to the end of the bootleg. I guess it might have been done to make the two vinyl sides seem more "even" in quantity given that the A side has eight tracks and the B only four.

Exactly. Let's see...

Side A of "Charade" ("Little Girl Wendy's Parade" to "Old Friends 4 Sale") = 25:06

Side B of "Charade" ("In All My Dreams" to "Heaven") = 24:21

Looks like a 50-minute cassette tape...

Let's say the full/complete version of "Heaven" is longer (or way longer) than 7:12. It might have come from another tape, but, at the time, there weren't many studio outtakes, I guess, so they had to choose from one of the rare outtakes that were already circulating in 1986-87. And cut/edit it.

IF and I say IF it was edited it was very early in the food chain, because it resurfaced later with a much better quality but it starts just the same.

databank said:

callimnate said:

olb99 said: Yep.. This is what I was talking about. http://www.discogs.com/vi...se=1861562 Ugly things.

I hadn't paid attention to the pics: look at them: "New Power Generation", "Glam Slam"... NO WAY this is from 1984

I live for Discogs! I would't know what I had with out checking my lists on it (or searching through my shelves of course)!

I've just commented as such on the release. Changes sould only be made by people who own the release.

So ORG'ers get signed up and start updating/adding stuff from your collections!

I've added quite a few releases by other artists, but very little by Prince.

RodeoSchro said:

I remember "Charade" and the Wembley show (with Sting and Ron Wood) from 1987 or 1988.

Interesting? Think I had it on tape but not sure.

luvsexy4all said:

getting the 8/3/83 video back in 1986.

How? In a shop or private circles?

The first boot was "From 1999 till now". I'm pretty sure I got that in Nov 85, at the Camden Electric Ballroom of all places.

There was another mega mix out a couple of months later, in a white sleeve. That had a Baby I'm a Star (Fatbag mix?) on the flip.

I remember getting the tracks that would make up Charade (+ the Electrifying Mojo interview) on a 2nd gen cassette in Nov 86, but the first vinyl I saw was in spring 87.

Then they came thick and fast. Chocolate Box, Rotterdam 86, Wembley 86, Crystal Ball etc etc.

The tapes were another story. The Prince Wembley Aug 86 Gigs were avaliable at Camden Market within a week.

You can go to the library and go through old Goldmine issues. Look for Midnight Records ads if you're pressed for time.

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A bunch of them came out in 87-88 (Like Pure Sex), but there were a couple out before Purple Rain.

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As for the vhs bootlegs that came out in the early 90's, unless the broadcast itself gave info, sorting out where they taped, and exact dates will always involve some guess work. Those tapes, and later dvd's were packaged with color copied handmade labels, and there were always variations depending on who duplicated them. A lot of inaccurate labeling. Edit to add: there were a hand full of stores that carried boots, and spots you knew to find the guys with tapes on the street. Otherwise, mail order and record fairs were the only way to get the semi-pro duplicated copies.

[Edited 5/6/14 11:20am]

databank said:

RodeoSchro said:

I remember "Charade" and the Wembley show (with Sting and Ron Wood) from 1987 or 1988.

Interesting? Think I had it on tape but not sure.

I had a 7inch picture sleeve of that with Salvador Dali on it (for whatever reason). Lost it somewhere.

I just brought up my copy of "Pop Life" (Wembley August 13-14th 1986), on the back it says "1986 Northlake Records". You can find a short review of it if you google (not sure if I can link to that old "guiding" site ).

I remember buying it from an ad in Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, it must have been 86 or 87.

I bought my first bootleg around 88, 89 in an independent record shop that had just opened in Ottawa, Canada. It was The Black Album and another cd with Lovesexy-era artwork, but I found the sound quality terrible on TBA and as much as I liked it its sound quality scared me away from listewning to the second cd too often. Then I split withy my then partner and he got the CDs in the "divorce" settlement.

databank said:

luvsexy4all said:

getting the 8/3/83 video back in 1986.

How? In a shop or private circles?

someone from minnie

First boots I bought in 1988 were vinyl: Black Album (with the U Got the Look fur coat cover) and Charade (a bit later). I wasn't aware of bootlegs before the publicity of Black Album.

Since this thread as prompted by a discussion whether "Heaven" is but the extended (or edited) portion of a longer outtake or demo, would I happen to be alone in thinking that this outtake dates prior to 1985?

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It frankly seems to my judgment to date to the relatively underdocumented post-Purple Rain, pre-Parade era period (1984, in the same broad window as perhaps "Love and Sex", "100 MPH" pre-DZ, the circulating Prince studio overdubbed take of "All Day, All Night", the 'remake' of "Lust U Always" widely circulating only in instrumental form, etc., and from which most of the ATWIAD era material seems to have arbitrarily been drawn), with its extensive instrumental qualities, and raw Linn and DX7 (I'm not certain he very much ever used [or allowed] something so immediately recognizably DX7 preset into the mix of any released song, barring perhaps "100 MPH", "The Dance Electric", "Kiss", although these are castaways given to or a reclaimed production of associated artists). It's a very unpolished take, and if it has been attributed by bootleggers or researchers to 1985 or later, I would trust that those versions would be quite different from this (what appears to be) early tracking of the song. Its production is very different from anything we know of his circulating 1985 studio efforts, and actually structurally tends more to the "Wet Dream Cousin"ish "mood" of 1983, but the primarily (or entirely) digital synth layering and certain qualities of its Linn track would have to push it into 1984 (or later, if my suspicions are incorrect). He is said not to have adopted the DX7 before late Winter 1984 [even though it was available for almost a year by that time], and I believe part of the leadline on WDC is the first time it makes an appearance on one of his own albums. The only thing I perceive in favor of the argument that it's a 1985+ track is its more peculiar or "contemplative" lyrical content.

.

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I believe the contents of his studio activity post-Purple Rain, but prior to the sessions for what would become Parade, being mostly or entirely the remainder of 1984, is one of his most mysterious periods. He clearly hasn't abandoned the "purple music" sound, but it is at the same time quite different on certain levels from what came immediately before, and very different from what comes only shortly after.

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It would seem to me that by early/mid 1985, Prince was using (among other things) more of a heavily processed (less factory preset) DX7 (or its brethren) and Fairlight, with instances of his older stylings only occasionally poking through (processing style on the electric guitar and the Oberheim analogue strings on "The Question of U" and Linn on "Mountains" and analogue pads in the extended portion of that track), excepting perhaps when he revisited certain older "Vault" tracks.

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I suspect that, if "Heaven" were ever part of his studio efforts in 1985 or 1986 (presumably for some hypothetical 1986 or 1987 release), it would probably have been quite the more "updated" and reworked, perhaps similar to the final versions of "Eternity" and "Neon Telephone" (even though these are in fact 1985 outtakes, I couldn't think of better examples at the moment to compare differences through overdubbing and reworking an obscure mid-80s Prince track to a "final" studio take).

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I would be interested in beginning a thread about outtakes that have, or may have been, attributed in the popular "Prince fandom" consciousness to the wrong year or "era", if only by small margins, and also released tracks that in whole or in part date back earlier or to other projects in ways not necessarily conspicuous to less obsessively involved fans.

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As an example, I believe a case could be made in this for "Allegiance" (sounds "Dance with the Devil" era early/mid 1989, using even many of the same patches/samples and very similar bass work in portions, morose/paranoid 1989-Prince-era theme ala "Mind Bells", way too synth-heavy for 1991 studio Prince, perhaps the year attributed by bootleggers was the year in which he was shopping it around for PP label or other artists to consider rather than the actual time of its recording).

.

It used to be hotly controverted that "319" had some of its [instrumental track] origins in the "Batman" 1989 era. "One Day (I'm Gonna Make U Mine)", this time on the basis of both its known date of recording and its production, I believe was recorded along with and as one of the "Camille" productions (though not necessarily ever part of any tracklist considered for an album bearing that title); the lyrics are very "Camille" and the speeded up voice effect even makes its appearance in the backing vocals left in the mix. I'm inclined believe "A Love Bizarre" is more likely a mid/Summer 1984 Prince track (from around the general time of tracking "The Screams of Passion"), and was ceded over to ensure a similar-level hit to TGL (perhaps in part because his after-PR show late-night studio and backstage recording runs to put together Romance 1600 were yielding nothing likely to shake up the upper tier of the pop charts and maintain the success of the previous album). It has been attributed to a January 1985 recording date, but I would imagine that would be Sheila's overdubbing vocals and miscellaneous instrumentation, and Eddie M's work. I believe that the "very early 1985 Prince studio sound" would more closely resemble instead "Hello" or "4TTIYE", or "Yellow". "We Can Funk"/"We Can Fu-k" sounds more early 1983, and not simply born of the product of a single Prince-Coleman/Melvoin family jam on New Year's Eve, but instead likely revisited on multiple occasions, perhaps including that "jam session", between late 1983 and 1986 (and again, obviously, in 1989).

.

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Dale's "So Strong" sounds rather like another 1984 track (late sessions Apollonia 6 leftover, or something laid down for a possible third * 6 album or future Sheila/female solo protege effort, perhaps?) that has been updated in late 1986 or early 1987 (perhaps when he was reworking Vault tracks for Bonnie Raitt, or even Jill Jones? Vocoder effects became briefly fashionable, after a short hybernation, in popular music again around late 86-88ish, the drum production is rather like "Yo, Mister" from that late 86ish era and there are even some of those "knock/bark" "La, La La *" beats thrown in for good measure (but seems to be built over an earlier more basic Linn track), the occasional sampled background vocal effects are very 1987 Prince (which he would toy with even more 88/89), but those rhythm guitar licks and Oberheim keyboard stabs are *very* un-1986/1987 Prince (really very much 1984 Prince) (at the same time, he's added a lot of digital synth "chorus/voice" and "tubular" sounds that are very late 80s Prince), throughout the song and at the fadeout we have some '86-88 Crucial/"Act of Contrition" style distorted guitar (or maybe it is more like that in 84's "The Dance Electric"?) but we also have some 1984ish style sounding DX7 organ entering in right before the track ends as well [kissing cousin to something used on "Condition of the Heart" or the fadeout from the full early studio overdubbed "All Day, All Night"). I am not certain how much freedom to give their input P afforded to the PP personnel working with Dale on this one, but there seem to be the elements of a much earlier track buried in the production. It is interesting that the claimed "tracking" date corresponds very closely with when he was to be working on updated (Vanity 6 era and other) Vault material with/for Bonnie Raitt, and also that this "sampled background vocal" effects style was used on later Jill Jones tracks from 1989 that updated earlier 1982/1983 (possibly Vanity 6) tracks. I don't believe anything in this particular song is any older than 1984, however.

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"4 Lust" has been said to be a mid/late 1987 track, but I believe it is more likely a late 1985/1986 solo track (on the basis of its Linn and having some processed analogue parts), with JJ taking over certain lines or dueting as an afterthought, and was most likely revisited for her first album, and further worked on later (in an uncirculating version with orchestration) for her never-completed/released second.

.

I am even willing to reasonably speculate that the basic tracks for "The Grand Progression" date back as far as 1985 (on account of what I think is mostly an analogue string backing that would be long-in-the-tooth in his music by 1987, and the "bluesy/moody" UTCM/Empty Room/TQOU-ish themes and lyrics). He did, of course, select 1985's TQOU from the Vault when working on The Dawn and early Graffiti Bridge projects in 1987, and this sounds very much like it could be a slightly brushed up track from roughly the same era (and of course was also considered for GB through as late as early 1990). I'm *half-inclined* to think that "I Wonder" is not being properly recognized to be one of the 1986 "Forever In My Life"/"Big Tall Wall"-spirit "partially a capella" tracks (even if there are some touch-ups to it made later). If Susan Rogers' recollection is correct that "Slow Love" is an "old one", I'd have to place its initial tracking period from around perhaps that of "Splash" or "Go"; the 1986 date given in the guides and princevault may instead reflect editing the completed track after submitting it to Claire Fischer.

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The relatively recently leaked Lisa Coleman (2011/12 or so) "guide vocal" "Our Destiny" I believe is likely her instructional track for the Fall '84 Dave Coleman/Novi Novog/etc. overdubs., which in turn was later submitted for further work to Claire Fischer circa '85/86. Perhaps Prince intended to replace/redo the vocals once a more finalized instrumental backing was obtained. I would love to hear what a late '84 "working" incarnation might sound like, which I believe would be closer to the live-overdubbed style of the material on the Purple Rain album. The sultry and old-fashioned "Hollywood" Fischer orchestra backing that was being considered in the final stages before work on the track was ultimately abandoned, does not seem to do it as much justice as would a live-overdubbed "Oberheimy" synth take with some backing PR-style Coleman/Novog/etc. orchestration thrown in. In fact, it might be best simply to go with the live take with synths alone cleaned up, more along the lines of the "All Day, All Night" outtake we all have. This is a synth-funk song at its heart, and building it up or converting it into a temperamental "high-art" piece may be neat in its own right, but is probably not how the song was originally conceived or its most enjoyable format.

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Inexplicably, the '84 Coleman/Novog/etc. segue from the "The Ladder" intro portion that I believe originally backed the ending "I Want You, I Want You" in "Our Destiny" is tacked on to the beginning of this leak (in what seems to my ears to be clearer sound than the other elements of the track). Is this maybe a bootlegger's trick or tagging? Since we had known for years that this orchestral segue was borrowed from "Our Destiny", did the bootleggers somewhere in the food-chain, having come into possession of this less compelling (read: less "saleable", although the leak never actually made it to pressing) "guide version" of this track, insert it back in themselves to meet our expectations? There seem to be two sets of orchestration in this leaked version, the original October 84 or thereabouts one, and work done by Fischer in 1985 or 1986, mostly the latter.

.

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I apologize for being all over the place here on outtakes and related matters, but these are very passionate and exciting concerns to many Prince fans.

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The way in which I see things, there are very distinctive divisions of production styling in studio periods within years, although sometimes probing the origins of a track can get very nettlesome with the richness the "vault", if it truly exists as such, allows for in dusting off and reworking older productions.

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Thank you kindly to anyone with the time and patience to read through and consider my speculations here. If someone would care to correct, or challenge my ignorance on any points here, that too would be greatly appreciated.

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[Edited 5/8/14 16:34pm]

^ Great post, and great thread. I could read and talk about outtakes all day.

imprimis said:

Since this thread as prompted by a discussion whether "Heaven" is but the extended (or edited) portion of a longer outtake or demo, would I happen to be alone in thinking that this outtake dates prior to 1985?

.

.

It frankly seems to my judgment to date to the relatively underdocumented post-Purple Rain, pre-Parade era period (1984, in the same broad window as perhaps "Love and Sex", "100 MPH" pre-DZ, the circulating Prince studio overdubbed take of "All Day, All Night", the 'remake' of "Lust U Always" widely circulating only in instrumental form, etc., and from which most of the ATWIAD era material seems to have arbitrarily been drawn), with its extensive instrumental qualities, and raw Linn and DX7 (I'm not certain he very much ever used [or allowed] something so immediately recognizably DX7 preset in the mix of any released song, barring perhaps "100 MPH", "The Dance Electric", "Kiss", although these are castaways given to or a reclaimed production of associated artists). It's a very unpolished take, and if it has been attributed by bootleggers or researchers to 1985 or later, I would trust that those versions would be quite different from this (what appears to be) early tracking of the song. Its production is very different from anything we know of his circulating 1985 studio efforts, and actually structurally tends more to the "Wet Dream Cousin"ish "mood" of 1983, but the primarily (or entirely) digital synth layering and certain qualities of its Linn track would have to push it into 1984 (or later, if my suspicions are incorrect). He is said not to have adopted the DX7 before late Winter 1984 [even though it was available for almost a year by that time], and I believe part of the lead line on WDC is the first time it makes an appearance on one of his own albums. The only thing I perceive in favor of the argument that it's a 1985+ track is its more peculiar or "contemplative" lyrical content.

.

.

I believe the contents of his studio activity post-Purple Rain, but prior to the sessions for what would become Parade, being mostly or entirely the remainder of 1984, is one of his most mysterious periods. He clearly hasn't abandoned the "purple music" sound, but it is at the same time quite different on certain levels from what came immediately before, and very different from what comes only shortly after.

.

.

It would seem to me that by early/mid 1985, Prince was using (among other things) more of a heavily processed (less factory preset) DX7 (or its brethren) and Fairlight, with instances of his older stylings only occasionally poking through (processing style on the electric guitar and the Oberheim analogue strings on "The Question of U" and Linn on "Mountains" and analogue pads in the extended portion of that track), excepting perhaps when he revisited certain older "Vault" tracks.

.

.

I suspect that, if "Heaven" were ever part of his studio efforts in 1985 or 1986 (presumably for some hypothetical 1986 or 1987 release), it would probably have been quite the more "updated" and reworked, perhaps similar to the final versions of "Eternity" and "Neon Telephone" (even though these are in fact 1985 outtakes, I couldn't think of better examples at the moment to compare differences through overdubbing and reworking an obscure mid-80s Prince track to a "final" studio take).

.

.

I would be interested in beginning a thread about outtakes that have, or may have been, attributed in the popular "Prince fandom" consciousness to the wrong year or "era", if only by small margins, and also released tracks that in whole or in part date back earlier or to other projects in ways not necessarily conspicuous to less obsessively involved fans.

.

.

As an example, I believe case could be made in this for "Allegiance" (sounds "Dance with the Devil" era early/mid 1989, using even many of the same patches/samples and very similar bass work in portions, way too synth-heavy for 1991 studio Prince, perhaps the year attributed by bootleggers was the year in which he was shopping it around for PP label or other artists to consider rather than the actual time of its recording). It used to be hotly controverted that "319" had some of its [instrumental track] origins in the "Batman" 1989 era. "One Day (I'm Gonna Make U Mine)", this time on the basis of both its known date of recording and its production, I believe was recorded along with and as one of the "Camille" productions (though not necessarily ever part of any tracklist considered for an album bearing that title); the lyrics are very "Camille" and the speeded up voice effect even makes its appearance in the backing vocals left in the mix. I'm inclined believe "A Love Bizarre" is more likely a mid/Summer 1984 Prince track (from around the general time of tracking "The Screams of Passion"), and was ceded over to ensure a similar-level hit to TGL (perhaps in part because his after-PR show late-night studio and backstage recording runs to put together Romance 1600 were yielding nothing likely to shake up the upper tier of the pop charts and maintain the success of the previous album). It has been attributed to a January 1985 recording date, but I would imagine that would be Sheila's overdubbing vocals and miscellaneous instrumentation, and Eddie M's work. I believe that the "very early 1985 Prince studio sound" would more closely resemble instead "Hello" or "4TTIYE", or "Yellow". "We Can Funk"/"We Can Fu-k" sounds more early 1983, and not simply born of the product of a single Prince-Coleman/Melvoin family jam on New Year's Eve, but instead likely revisited on multiple occasions, perhaps including that "jam session", between late 1983 and 1986 (and again, obviously, in 1989).

.

.

Dale's "So Strong" sounds rather like another 1984 track (late sessions Appolonia 6 leftover, or something laid down for a possible third * 6 album or future Sheila/female solo protege effort?) that has been updated in late 1986 or early 1987 (perhaps when he was reworking Vault tracks for Bonnie Raitt, or even Jill Jones? Vocoder effects became briefly fashionable, after a short hybernation, in popular music again around late 86-88ish, the drum production is rather like "Yo, Mister" from that late 86ish era and there are even some of those "bark" "La, La La *" beats thrown in for good measure (but seems to be built over an earlier more basic Linn track), the occasional sampled background vocal effects is very 1987 Prince (which he would toy with even more 88/89), but the rhythm guitar licks and keyboard stabs are *very* un-1986/1987 Prince (really very much 1984 Prince), throughout the song and at the fadeout we have some '86-88 Crucial/"Act of Contrition" style distorted guitar (or maybe it is more like that in 84's "The Dance Electric"?) but we also have some 1984ish style sounding DX7 organ entering in right before the track ends as well [kissing cousin to something used on "Condition of the Heart" or the fadeout from the full early studio overdubbed "All Day, All Night"). "4 Lust" has been said to be a mid/late 1987 track, but I believe it is more likely a late 1985/1986 solo track (on the basis of its Linn and having some processed analogue parts), with JJ taking over certain lines or dueting as an afterthought, and was most likely revisited for her first album, and further worked on later (in an uncirculating version with orchestration) for her never-completed/released second. I am even willing to reasonably speculate that the basic tracks for "The Grand Progression" date back as far as 1985 (on account of what I think is mostly an analogue string backing that would be long-in-the-tooth in his music by 1987, and the "bluesy/moody" UTCM/TQOU-ish themes and lyrics). I'm half-inclined to think that "I Wonder" is not being properly recognized to be one of the 1986 "Forever In My Life"/"Big Tall Wall"-spirit "partially a capella" tracks. If Susan Rogers' recollection is correct that "Slow Love" is an "old one", I'd have to place its initial tracking period from around perhaps that of "Splash" or "Go"; the 1986 date given in the guides and princevault may instead reflect editing the completed track after submitting it to Claire Fischer.

.

.

I apologize for being all over the place here on outtakes and related matters, but these are very passionate and exciting concerns to many Prince fans.

.

.th

The way in which I see things, there are very distinctive divisions of production styling in studio periods within years, although sometimes probing the origins of a track can get very nettlesome with the richness the "vault", if it truly exists as such, allows for in dusting off and reworking older productions.

.

.

Thank you kindly to anyone with the time and patience to read through and consider my speculations here. If someone would care to correct, or challenge my ignorance on any points here, that too would be greatly appreciated.

[Edited 5/7/14 23:23pm]

Very interesting topic and u make a certain number of very valid point based on technicalities and choices of instruments.

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I totally agree that some songs seem "out of time" but the reason why I tend to trust Per Nielsen's reasearch is because it was based on everything but speculation: save in some cases when it was said that the songs was "beleived to have been recorded around XXX", the dates we have were not "attributed" arbitrarely by "bootleggers", they were the results of long interviews with P's musicians and sound engineers, many of them who had kept diaries of what they had played on or engineered on what day. For example it happened that Nilsen would specify that he knows that the horns were overdubbed on XXX but the exact recording date of the song itself is unknown (or vaguely known as from such month or season), so it's not like Nilsen would think that because the horns were overdubbed on january 9th it's safe to say that the whole song can be dated to January 9th. Of course there is a margin of error, some people may have had some confused memories when it comes to some songs and some songs may have been misfiled on some people's diaries, but I think it's safe to assume that MOST of the info we have is accurate unless challenged by something more than "how the song sounds" or what instruments were used on them.

.

Another thing is that if I read u properly u assume that many songs may date from EARLIER than dated because they sound like or use intruments from older eras. While I would be much more convinced by the opposite (this song attributed to 1986 uses a typically 1990-like synthesizer or drum patch that it's unlikely P already had, or even didn't exist, in 1986), I think that there's no reason to assume that just because Prince has acquired new gear and has taken the habit of experimenting with some new sounds it's not safe to assume that every once in a while he wouldn't like to revisit past instruments or songs. I mean since 1999 he's often reused his old Linn in similar ways to what he used to do with it in 82-87 and nonetheless we all agree that there's no reason to believe that "Box Of Chocolate" or "What Do U Want Me 2 Do" are revamped songs from the 80's. As an artist (writer) myself I have to say that I regularly revisit older writing "styles" or techniques that I had given up for years but feel like toying with again for a short while: my guess is that I'd do the same if I was a musician, there would always be moments when I'd feel like re-using an old instruments or recording technique. It's like everything else: u gonna use a tool intensively while it's new, then get bored with it and use the newest tools instead, and then every once in a while u'll be like "oh! I feel like doing something the old way today" or "oh! that particular drum patch I used to play with 3 years ago would sound great on that song, let's use it!"

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So while I find all your analysis quite convincing, the part of me that wants to avoid confusing personal analysis and proven facts makes me want to say that your arguments can only serve as a base for maybe new counter-researches (like new interviews asking engineers/bandmembers to confirm or deny your assumptions) but cannot go anywhere without that. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed, just that no conclusion can be made without further facts.

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Another thing is that Madhouseman, who is a member of this forum and about to publish what is expected to be the most detailed and comprehensive books about P's recording sessions, has done additional research and many new interviews since the days of Nilsen's research, so I would love to hear what he has to say about all this, since he is certainly able to explain where the information for each of the aforementioned recording session comes from (or provide new, contradictory information).

Hello There, databank,

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Thank you for your input. Please let me preface this by saying that I very much respect your views, and am not asserting that what I am saying should necessarily carry any weight to others interested in some of the finer points of his catalogue, especially outtakes.

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.

I wholeheartedly agree that some, or even much or most of what I am speculating about at the moment in the post (and it is subject to change at anytime!), may be inaccurate or incorrect, and freely acknowledge that I cannot furnish any "evidence" beyond [making an effort at] drawing inferences from technical considerations.

.

.

However, I feel that we must consider that through about early 1988, Prince was a still held to be a broad superstar act (in North America, at least; his absolute superstardom by the public at large may have a different length and trajectory abroad), and that it seems to be not until the period shortly before this measurable diminution in his popular reputation (late 1986 going into 1988) that these types of revisited tracks seem to spur up in large number (in their attributed recording dates, if not their dates of release, which may have been years later, or for a project that would not be released for years later).

.

.

I am not saying this he did not encounter commercial backlash even before this period, but I believe most Americans would have been keenly interested in new Prince output until at least approximately Lovesexy, even if they "couldn't relate" entirely to some of the albums or releases prior. And I am not suggesting that to be an enlightened view whatsoever of the merit or relative merit in his work before, during, or after this period, but rather just a theory for the commercial engines and shifting sonic landscape that collectively may have strongly influenced some of his work processes.

.

.

It is interesting that this seems to be also roughly the time period the earliest (non-live) bootlegs seem to have begun to appear. Is it simply this alone-- that enough years for Prince to record the material, and also to have been in the public eye, had passed to allow for enough interest to develop and to allow for enough circulation by networked hands to prompt a viable market for this type of outtake material? Or is there some literal commercial roadblock that is being hit by Prince himself that is not only independently driving a healthy marketplace for outtake materials by some of his fanbase (and not necessarily to the exclusion of the scenario in the last sentence), but also influencing himself to dig back further into his "vault" [more frequently than before] to rework and revisit rather than simply lay down entirely new tracks. I'm recognize that's a rather subjective view for someone to hold, because the quantity of his "new" output might be at this period in his career so massive that it's higher than earlier "eras", perhaps because of Paisley Park, with any revisited material simply having to be added on top of that (especially after 1986).

.

.

It might also be said that some of this activity was encouraged in that Warner Bros were pushing to reconfigure the image of the newly "liberated" Prince as not only a top-tier name-brand solo act, but also as a highly desirable producer for other artists in the 1987-1988 era.

.

.

I don't believe reworking many-years-old vault master recordings was *as common* a practice before about late 1985 or 1986. (As an aside on those particular years, he many have been delayed from completing earlier efforts by his pursuit of and rapid climb into superstardom ~82/83 through 85) Obviously bootlegs of studio recordings in later years leading up to today would be desired for different reasons than just these hypothetical ones, and build off this earlier established black market, and obviously his reworking or revisiting older tracks is not absolutely exclusive as a practice to any given point in his career. (However, I'm going to have to politely disagree with anyone who tries to counter this by suggesting that, for instance, "Do Me Baby" may have been a revamped 1979 recording, or that "Baby, I'm A Star" was -written- in 1981, or that there is some rough sketch of "Raspberry Beret" recorded in 1982 is evidence of the idea that his revisiting much older *master recordings* was -always- an -extensive- component of his studio time). And by 'revisit' I am mean, to retain at least some substantial portion of the original basic tracks, and replace, overdub, extend, edit, mix, remix, remove, etc.; not simply to base an entirely new recording around the song contained in an earlier one, as with "Feel U Up" '81 vs. '86.

.

.

It is my understanding that the origin of many of the attributed dates that influence our "official" best understanding to this day may come from reputed studio logs, or a ledger of dates taken from the sides of protective containers for master tapes, and while I respect that it is indeed breathtakingly extensive for a private researcher into a musician's activities to have compiled as much data, these data do not necessarily provide a comprehensive or exhaustive amount of information to be able to positively attribute the very "incipience" of a recording as such, and there may be no feasible way for the fan community ever to obtain that [or anything legitimately close to that] completeness of information.

.

.

As a major American commercial artist, number two or three in the hierarchy between mid/late 83-early 88 (and number one, or co-equal top dog, late mid 84-early/mid 85) as a very crude interval, any of Prince's recordings that he would have at least planned for a potential commercial release during this period would be quite responsive to the fast-moving musical trends of the era (especially which instrumental and effects equipment to structure a production around). Certainly, with Prince, this is filtered through and can be only partially reconciled with his very inimitable habit of bucking-the-trends (e.g., SOTT being mostly or entirely CMI Fairlight factory samples or presets). But even if he did not use the equipment in exactly the same way as now-less well remembered artists might have at the time, it still followed a similar broad picture that parallelled on some scale the rest of industry production.

.

.

I don't believe his attempts at capturing a general sentiment of that "classic Prince '80s MLPS sound" in the much more recent songs you cited can be compared to what guided his studio output in the high-pressure days when he was massively relevant in the popular domain. There are clear era "signatures" in this vintage period, formed on the basis of the equipment (in large part), that to me have /almost/ the binding effect of carbon-dating the songs or at least the beginnings of the song, versus the occasional well-intentioned "forgeries" for listeners of his more recent album output. There is usually a distinctly recognizably difference to using the equipment out of necessity and with great skill because those are the tools available to oneself at the time, and trying to put together something that resembles or hearkens back to that style of production years after the fact (it can almost be self-parody). There is simply a mark of competence in using or designing the production that just cannot seem to be recaptured or rekindled even by the ablest hands.

.

.

I am still essentially of the mind that the basic instrumental backing of tracks from circa 1990 and before can provide *very* strong clues to their origins, even if they have been superimposed upon (or some portions mixed out or mixed differently) in [potentially multiple] later reworkings, clues that can raise an eyebrow at claimed "definitive" dates. By some point in 1991 or 1992, although this will change appreciably for the better by 1993 and later, he seems to have shifted to an unremarkable, indistinctive over-MIDIfied, KORG workstation-esque lounge-jazz instrumentation.

.

.

While it is not impossible, I acknowledge, for him to have dusted off older equipment, or use the increasingly-"legacy" equipment he kept on board all along in a way that more recognizably reflects his studio habits from a period further back in the decade, I sense that such would be a relatively rare occurrence and that the tracks in question meeting those criteria would be mostly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. A late "major commercial fame era" (87-91) Prince effort at recreating the essence of an earlier period in the development of his [instrumental] sound in an entirely newly made track would probably more commonly fall along the lines of "Insatiable" or "Partyman", or even "Scarlet Pussy", or some of the new tracks he worked on for "Corporate World".

.

.

Regarding Per Nielsen specifically, one thing that always irked me was his unwillingness to retract or modify "authoritative claims" in the face of better evidence. For instance, and I don't know why these examples particularly stand out to me, and it is on some level very petty and droningly repetitive of me, he insists that the early rough "somebody please tell me what the f***" version of Computer Blue is founded on an entirely different take/tracking to what became the very-edited album ("Hallway") version, when clearly they can be lined up and controlled for time and the entirely random feedback guitar work (that goes on for deliciously far too long) is identical between them (I'm going to have to contend that there is enough available material to at least strongly suggest, that our beloved CmpBl is a semi-live Warehouse take cleaned up in the studio [not at all unlike LGC, but even more extensively done], and not likely to be a newly tracked second studio take). Or that for the Sunset studio sessions that yielded "Traffic Jam"/"When Doves Cry"/"Love and Sex", Susan Rogers recalls his then-recent demand to go out and purchase a DX7 as unusual because it was an "already outdated instrument". For February/March 1984, incorporating a DX7 into one's sound would be arguably very early (it did not become prominant in pop music/R&B for another 1 or more years, and was a force to be reckoned with circa mid 1985-1987), as the keyboard had been out not even fully a year at that time (and would not be fully retired by many musicians until anytime between 1988-1992).

.

.

I suggest that it may be appropriate to allow for some form of graded scale of "mixed era" output as a consequence of presumed or speculated reworkings, and that such a category and scale could help to remove some of the "heat" and animosity of disagreement on certain songs or tracks, for at least the short term.

.

[Edited 5/8/14 3:26am]

databank said:

by 1996 finding boots in record shops had become nearly impossible.

Nah, the same shops where I regularly bought boots started to resupply boots after a cooling down period, except now they weren't in the open and you were only informed if they knew you. I know one shop where they confiscated a bunch of CD boots but totally ignored the vinyl boots during the raid.

imprimis said:

Hello There, databank,

.

.

Thank you for your input. Please let me preface this by saying that I very much respect your views, and am not asserting that what I am saying should necessarily carry any weight to others interested in some of the finer points of his catalogue, especially outtakes.

.

.

I wholeheartedly agree that some, or even much or most of what I am speculating about at the moment in the post (and it is subject to change at anytime!), may be inaccurate or incorrect, and freely acknowledge that I cannot furnish any "evidence" beyond [making an effort at] drawing inferences from technical considerations.

.

.

However, I feel that we must consider that through about early 1988, Prince was a still held to be a broad superstar act (in North America, at least; his absolute superstardom by the public at large may have a different length and trajectory abroad), and that it seems to be not until the period shortly before this measurable diminution in his popular reputation (late 1986 going into 1988) that these types of revisited tracks seem to spur up in large number (in their attributed recording dates, if not their dates of release, which may have been years later, or for a project that would not be released for years later).

.

.

I am not saying this he did not encounter commercial backlash even before this period, but I believe most Americans would have been keenly interested in new Prince output until at least approximately Lovesexy, even if they "couldn't relate" entirely to some of the albums or releases prior. And I am not suggesting that to be an enlightened view whatsoever of the merit or relative merit in his work before, during, or after this period, but rather just a theory for the commercial engines and shifting sonic landscape that collectively may have strongly influenced some of his work processes.

.

.

It is interesting that this seems to be also roughly the time period the earliest (non-live) bootlegs seem to have begun to appear. Is it simply this alone-- that enough years for Prince to record the material, and also to have been in the public eye, had passed to allow for enough interest to develop and to allow for enough circulation by networked hands to prompt a viable market for this type of outtake material? Or is there some literal commercial roadblock that is being hit by Prince himself that is not only independently driving a healthy marketplace for outtake materials by some of his fanbase (and not necessarily to the exclusion of the scenario in the last sentence), but also influencing himself to dig back further into his "vault" [more frequently than before] to rework and revisit rather than simply lay down entirely new tracks. I'm recognize that's a rather subjective view for someone to hold, because the quantity of his "new" output might be at this period in his career so massive that it's higher than earlier "eras", perhaps because of Paisley Park, with any revisited material simply having to be added on top of that (especially after 1986).

.

.

It might also be said that some of this activity was encouraged in that Warner Bros were pushing to reconfigure the image of the newly "liberated" Prince as not only a top-tier name-brand solo act, but also as a highly desirable producer for other artists in the 1987-1988 era.

.

.

I don't believe reworking many-years-old vault master recordings was *as common* a practice before about late 1985 or 1986. (As an aside on those particular years, he many have been delayed from completing earlier efforts by his pursuit of and rapid climb into superstardom ~82/83 through 85) Obviously bootlegs of studio recordings in later years leading up to today would be desired for different reasons than just these hypothetical ones, and build off this earlier established black market, and obviously his reworking or revisiting older tracks is not absolutely exclusive as a practice to any given point in his career. (However, I'm going to have to politely disagree with anyone who tries to counter this by suggesting that, for instance, "Do Me Baby" may have been a revamped 1979 recording, or that "Baby, I'm A Star" was -written- in 1981, or that there is some rough sketch of "Raspberry Beret" recorded in 1982 is evidence of the idea that his revisiting much older *master recordings* was -always- an -extensive- component of his studio time). And by 'revisit' I am mean, to retain at least some substantial portion of the original basic tracks, and replace, overdub, extend, edit, mix, remix, remove, etc.; not simply to base an entirely new recording around the song contained in an earlier one, as with "Feel U Up" '81 vs. '86.

.

.

It is my understanding that the origin of many of the attributed dates that influence our "official" best understanding to this day may come from reputed studio logs, or a ledger of dates taken from the sides of protective containers for master tapes, and while I respect that it is indeed breathtakingly extensive for a private researcher into a musician's activities to have compiled as much data, these data do not necessarily provide a comprehensive or exhaustive amount of information to be able to positively attribute the very "incipience" of a recording as such, and there may be no feasible way for the fan community ever to obtain that [or anything legitimately close to that] completeness of information.

.

.

As a major American commercial artist, number two or three in the hierarchy between mid/late 83-early 88 (and number one, or co-equal top dog, late mid 84-early/mid 85) as a very crude interval, any of Prince's recordings that he would have at least planned for a potential commercial release during this period would be quite responsive to the fast-moving musical trends of the era (especially which instrumental and effects equipment to structure a production around). Certainly, with Prince, this is filtered through and can be only partially reconciled with his very inimitable habit of bucking-the-trends (e.g., SOTT being mostly or entirely CMI Fairlight factory samples or presets). But even if he did not use the equipment in exactly the same way as now-less well remembered artists might have at the time, it still followed a similar broad picture that parallelled on some scale the rest of industry production.

.

.

I don't believe his attempts at capturing a general sentiment of that "classic Prince '80s MLPS sound" in the much more recent songs you cited can be compared to what guided his studio output in the high-pressure days when he was massively relevant in the popular domain. There are clear era "signatures" in this vintage period, formed on the basis of the equipment (in large part), that to me have /almost/ the binding effect of carbon-dating the songs or at least the beginnings of the song, versus the occasional well-intentioned "forgeries" for listeners of his more recent album output. There is usually a distinctly recognizably difference to using the equipment out of necessity and with great skill because those are the tools available to oneself at the time, and trying to put together something that resembles or hearkens back to that style of production years after the fact (it can almost be self-parody). There is simply a mark of competence in using or designing the production that just cannot seem to be recaptured or rekindled even by the ablest hands.

.

.

I am still essentially of the mind that the basic instrumental backing of tracks from circa 1990 and before can provide *very* strong clues to their origins, even if they have been superimposed upon (or some portions mixed out or mixed differently) in [potentially multiple] later reworkings, clues that can raise an eyebrow at claimed "definitive" dates. By some point in 1991 or 1992, although this will change appreciably for the better by 1993 and later, he seems to have shifted to an unremarkable, indistinctive over-MIDIfied, KORG workstation-esque lounge-jazz instrumentation.

.

.

While it is not impossible, I acknowledge, for him to have dusted off older equipment, or use the increasingly-"legacy" equipment he kept on board all along in a way that more recognizably reflects his studio habits from a period further back in the decade, I sense that such would be a relatively rare occurrence and that the tracks in question meeting those criteria would be mostly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. A late "major commercial fame era" (87-91) Prince effort at recreating the essence of an earlier period in the development of his [instrumental] sound in an entirely newly made track would probably more commonly fall along the lines of "Insatiable" or "Partyman", or even "Scarlet Pussy", or some of the new tracks he worked on for "Corporate World".

.

.

Regarding Per Nielsen specifically, one thing that always irked me was his unwillingness to retract or modify "authoritative claims" in the face of better evidence. For instance, and I don't know why these examples particularly stand out to me, and it is on some level very petty and droningly repetitive of me, he insists that the early rough "somebody please tell me what the f***" version of Computer Blue is founded on an entirely different take/tracking to what became the very-edited album ("Hallway") version, when clearly they can be lined up and controlled for time and the entirely random feedback guitar work (that goes on for deliciously far too long) is identical between them (I'm going to have to contend that there is enough available material to at least strongly suggest, that our beloved CmpBl is a semi-live Warehouse take cleaned up in the studio [not at all unlike LGC, but even more extensively done], and not likely to be a newly tracked second studio take). Or that for the Sunset studio sessions that yielded "Traffic Jam"/"When Doves Cry"/"Love and Sex", Susan Rogers recalls his then-recent demand to go out and purchase a DX7 as unusual because it was an "already outdated instrument". For February/March 1984, incorporating a DX7 into one's sound would be arguably very early (it did not become prominant in pop music/R&B for another 1 or more years, and was a force to be reckoned with circa mid 1985-1987), as the keyboard had been out not even fully a year at that time (and would not be fully retired by many musicians until anytime between 1988-1992).

.

.

I suggest that it may be appropriate to allow for some form of graded scale of "mixed era" output as a consequence of presumed or speculated reworkings, and that such a category and scale could help to remove some of the "heat" and animosity of disagreement on certain songs or tracks, for at least the short term.

.

[Edited 5/8/14 3:26am]

Just to answer one of your arguments, you seem to assume that P always recorded songs with the purpose to release them, but he knew that he recorded waaaay more than what he could release. While many tracks were recorded with some defined projects in mind, lots were just recorded for the sake of being recorded. Some in the first category finally stayed in the vault and some from the second finally made their way to a project or another. It's even very likely that some songs were recorded just for fun or a need for self expression, with P knowing from the beginning that he'd never release them save maybe years later when/if he'd open the vault (Work That Fat or DaBang obviously fall in that category for example, and I wouldn't be surprised if Heaven did as well). Therefore while P certainly cared about his sound being up-to-date overall, he certainly could allow himself to sound "old" on some other songs he did just for fun. As for the rest of you're objections I find them, once again, very interesting (particularly by opposition to all the delusional BS I usually read here when people try and make a truth of their personal nonsensical theories and end-up calling u names when u try and reason them) but I have no valid argument to either oppose nor encourage your theories, so until a higher authority such as Boris or Madhouseman enters the debate I say let's keep thing on a statu quo

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

by 1996 finding boots in record shops had become nearly impossible.

Nah, the same shops where I regularly bought boots started to resupply boots after a cooling down period, except now they weren't in the open and you were only informed if they knew you. I know one shop where they confiscated a bunch of CD boots but totally ignored the vinyl boots during the raid.

What I sais was actually valid for France and I assumed it was the same elsewhere. What country u from?

ufoclub said:

First boots I bought in 1988 were vinyl: Black Album (with the U Got the Look fur coat cover) and Charade (a bit later). I wasn't aware of bootlegs before the publicity of Black Album.

Same for me.

When I read the articles about the Black Album boots and the underground market, I was on a mission to get a copy. Before accomplishing this mission, I found and purchased When Doves Cry It's A Sign Of The Times boot and double vinyl. It contained a show from the Sign "O" The Times tour in Sweden. It had the crappy photocopy cover glued to a white sleeve. It was an audience recording. And. I. Loved. It. This was spring '88.

I soon found the Black Album, that same horrible one with the U Got The Look cover. I didn't know at the time that the audio was sped up, but, within a month or so found the 'proper' boot with the black cover that had the embossed picture of Prince that you could see if you tilted the album just right in the light. This one sounded GREAT!

Other vinyl boots I purchased in 88-89: (in no particular order)

The Back Album - a "pirate" collection of b-sides

Ice Cream Castle - outtakes

Intimate Moments With Prince - piano rehearsals, iirc

Charade - printed on cover: "Recorded at Paisley Park and Sunset Sound except 'Heaven' which was recorded in France in summer of '84." & "Released to celebrate the 'Parade' Tour of 1986. A Dream Factory Presentation for fan club use only. Copyright Planet Rock Records 1987."

Under The London Moon - Parade Tour

Pure Sex - Parade Tour

Chocolate Box - outtakes

Crucial - outtakes

Camille's Crystal Ball - outtakes & live

Royal Jewels - massive 3lp box set of outtakes

THE Regent Of First Avenue - live '4 Those Of U On Valium' set

Just My Imagination - live aftershow

Night Club Recording - live aftershow

Sex Machine (Polka Dot Album)/He's Got The Look - live aftershow

and of course... Small Club

Sometime in 89 I got my first bootleg CD: The White Album, which was a single CD edited down version of Lovesexy show that I didn't know at the time was available on VHS & LD in other countries.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Nah, the same shops where I regularly bought boots started to resupply boots after a cooling down period, except now they weren't in the open and you were only informed if they knew you. I know one shop where they confiscated a bunch of CD boots but totally ignored the vinyl boots during the raid.

What I sais was actually valid for France and I assumed it was the same elsewhere. What country u from?

Don't know about Bart, but, I'm in the US.

In 94, during the bootleg boom, I worked at a small record shop that sold boots. By far our biggest sellers were the Seattle grunge bands.

We had distributors in New York that sold us boots from Europe for $18 (single disc) and we sold them for $32. KTS (Kiss The Stone) was one of the biggest and most popular boot labels due to their usually terrific quality control. We used to get catalogs of all their titles, I have a few in a box somewhere.

A year or so later, when I no longer worked at the shop, boots became hard to get.

As I understand it: the people that ran KTS and a couple other big boot labels got busted in a sting, leading to a crackdown and limited availability.

However, during this time, labels like Moonraker, and iirc, Sabotage came became known as labels that were exclusively releasing Prince material and usually in the best quality so far in circulation.

Withing a couple years of the crackdown, boots could easily be purchased online from overseas. Another couple years and they were available to download. One. Song. At. A. Time.

Eventually this led to what we have today.

The last Prince bootleg I purchased was Fantasia. I ordered it online from Japan. This was 98, the same year I got my first CD burner and not long before I downloaded my first boot.

Hi There Again,

.

I do realize that the volume of his output would by anyone's terms well exceed what could ever be reasonably released for its own time period. There are oddball songs, like the ones he assembled for Sheila's 1986 birthday party that made their way to TBA, that he may not necessarily have originally intended for anything other than his own internal private use and enjoyment.

.

But I contend a lot of his productions (although certainly not all), and perhaps many (if not all) of the particular tracks I singled out in my earlier posting, when they were first being recorded, P at least had an *eye* towards the *possibility* of their being candidates for a future [hypothetical] album project (his own or an associated artist) or its B-sides (or 12"/maxi singles). He may not necessarily have got what he wanted out of a recording the first time around, or for any of a myriad reasons had many other tracks to favor for a release or project over them. At the very least, it was an outlet to practice and exercise his studiocraft or provide himself with sketches that, if nothing else, might influence [what he may have felt to be better executed or more viable] future tracks.

.

The tracks I cited just to me have such a very nuanced texture or sound in at least *some aspects* of their production qualities, so esoteric to a particular era of popular music, and his own stylings in that era, that I do not know how or why he would attempt to reinvoke something that intensely & needlessly particular, if he's doing it all from scratch in a way unlike most of his output during a later period in his musical journey.

.

It's not that it would be impossible for Prince in a sense "allow himself to sound old". It's just that I am uncertain whether a 1987 or 1988 or 1989 or whatever Prince could (or would) *so extremely convincingly* return to a 1983 or 1984 or even 1985 habit (for example) in his playing. Or that with a presumed or known backlog of reasonably good material why he would be compelled to or find a need to specifically "reproduce" the sound of his past (at these "later vintage Prince" periods of time, at least), when he could instead dust off, touch up, or build off of some of these earlier "undernourished" or unused/hidden-away tracks.

.

The "earlier-era" nature of the production (in some aspects, at least) in these songs I listed is of an underwhelming, almost inconsequential nature. His use of the techniques or instruments or stylings do not seem to be specific or concerted efforts to meet an audience wish or expectation for an established "sound" like he might have done with the "Corporate World" project (analogue funk horns/sawtooths), for instance. Absent any clear motive or pattern for using these methods at this point in his career, it seems to my judgment more probable (but not proven by any means) that these are "reinvigorated" earlier unused tracks, rather than being entirely new efforts where he may have happened to indulge his affections for ageing gear or technique.

.

Just to answer one of your arguments, you seem to assume that P always recorded songs with the purpose to release them, but he knew that he recorded waaaay more than what he could release. While many tracks were recorded with some defined projects in mind, lots were just recorded for the sake of being recorded. Some in the first category finally stayed in the vault and some from the second finally made their way to a project or another. It's even very likely that some songs were recorded just for fun or a need for self expression, with P knowing from the beginning that he'd never release them save maybe years later when/if he'd open the vault (Work That Fat or DaBang obviously fall in that category for example, and I wouldn't be surprised if Heaven did as well). Therefore while P certainly cared about his sound being up-to-date overall, he certainly could allow himself to sound "old" on some other songs he did just for fun. As for the rest of you're objections I find them, once again, very interesting (particularly by opposition to all the delusional BS I usually read here when people try and make a truth of their personal nonsensical theories and end-up calling u names when u try and reason them) but I have no valid argument to either oppose nor encourage your theories, so until a higher authority such as Boris or Madhouseman enters the debate I say let's keep thing on a statu quo

[Edited 5/8/14 16:01pm]

Imprimis brings up a lot of great points (some I'm not sure are all related), he most important of which is this notion that we as fans have solid, irrefutable info. If tracks were worked on in a cyclical fashion, with lots of piecing or revising, then that throws out the entire concept of a single recording period, or being able to carbon stamp a song by the audible technology.

.

.

Something like a Linn drum or a synth might stay in the rack, or be easy to revisit and play around with, but the Fairlight was a pain. Once people moved on from them (ADAT's, Amiga's, Atari, etc.) nobody was turning back. They weren't easy to get serviced by the early 90's, and most people were ready for digital, which in it's own right, was fll of arcane equipment piling up in the corner (like the Atari, Amiga, Videotoaster, etc). Same with some of the synth patches. There was a point where it wasn't cool to load up your Jupiter 8. Then there were die hards who wouldn't give up these pieces of equipment. Point being, even the timeline of equipment is subjective. Something like "Black Sweat" is obviously new, based on the sequencing alone, but what does that tell us about the lineage of the song? Not too much. Likewise, someone says they played the Tambourine on "Fuschia Light" in 1987, how much value do we place on that? Maybe they got edited out? Maybe it got redone in 1988? Maybe they never heard the final product to know either way? Maybe the track circulating is missing the Oboe and Zitar solos added a year later?

.

.

Artists tend to be at their most prolific in their 20's, but not all the work is so focused, or something you revisit and find still represents a mature idea. If you go back to it in your late 20's, or 30's, you spot things, but then you can also see this wealth of work and some good unrealized ideas. I would think this kind of thing explains some of the dates you mentioned, rather than commercialism. Though it's also not uncommon for someone to record a song that doesn't fit into their other work, until a few years later.

What I am most interested in is trying to assess when a given track was first laid down in any of its elements, even if it was revisited numerous times in later years or first becomes known to us as having been associated with a project from a given time period.

.

Princevault and the guides seem more often to suggest or assume that certain tracks originated in the main part in only one or a small number of sessions during roughly the same period (which is likely basically correct for most tracks, but it gets very sketchy when the dating offered is derived from vague recollections of smaller players or when we can link them to a known project, rather than perhaps when they were truly first "cut"), and I worry that by being potentially misled we are deprived of valuable insight as to where exactly P was in a period of time outside of just what we can reasonably infer from the released recordings or recordings that pretty clearly reflect their own era (or path of development).

.

I particularly believe 1984-1986, beyond what we already know from that era (especially 1986) as being increasingly experimental or multifaceted, if we could better understand from the limited clues available we may be ignoring about production during this time, startling contradictions might be raised to the received wisdom of what Prince did and recorded during this time (that is, the image or information we already have based on the albums we received, and the outtakes we can uncontroversially attribute to these years).

.

treehouse said:

Imprimis brings up a lot of great points (some I'm not sure are all related), he most important of which is this notion that we as fans have solid, irrefutable info. If tracks were worked on in a cyclical fashion, with lots of piecing or revising, then that throws out the entire concept of a single recording period, or being able to carbon stamp a song by the audible technology.

.

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Something like a Linn drum or a synth might stay in the rack, or be easy to revisit and play around with, but the Fairlight was a pain. Once people moved on from them (ADAT's, Amiga's, Atari, etc.) nobody was turning back. They weren't easy to get serviced by the early 90's, and most people were ready for digital, which in it's own right, was fll of arcane equipment piling up in the corner (like the Atari, Amiga, Videotoaster, etc). Same with some of the synth patches. There was a point where it wasn't cool to load up your Jupiter 8. Then there were die hards who wouldn't give up these pieces of equipment. Point being, even the timeline of equipment is subjective. Something like "Black Sweat" is obviously new, based on the sequencing alone, but what does that tell us about the lineage of the song? Not too much. Likewise, someone says they played the Tambourine on "Fuschia Light" in 1987, how much value do we place on that? Maybe they got edited out? Maybe it got redone in 1988? Maybe they never heard the final product to know either way? Maybe the track circulating is missing the Oboe and Zitar solos added a year later?

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Artists tend to be at their most prolific in their 20's, but not all the work is so focused, or something you revisit and find still represents a mature idea. If you go back to it in your late 20's, or 30's, you spot things, but then you can also see this wealth of work and some good unrealized ideas. I would think this kind of thing explains some of the dates you mentioned, rather than commercialism. Though it's also not uncommon for someone to record a song that doesn't fit into their other work, until a few years later.

[Edited 5/8/14 15:07pm]

imprimis said:

...Regarding Per Nielsen specifically, one thing that always irked me was his unwillingness to retract or modify "authoritative claims" in the face of better evidence. For instance, and I don't know why these examples particularly stand out to me, and it is on some level very petty and droningly repetitive of me, he insists that the early rough "somebody please tell me what the f***" version of Computer Blue is founded on an entirely different take/tracking to what became the very-edited album ("Hallway") version, when clearly they can be lined up and controlled for time and the entirely random feedback guitar work (that goes on for deliciously far too long) is identical between them (I'm going to have to contend that there is enough available material to at least strongly suggest, that our beloved CmpBl is a semi-live Warehouse take cleaned up in the studio [not at all unlike LGC, but even more extensively done], and not likely to be a newly tracked second studio take)...

[Edited 5/8/14 3:26am]

I've always thought the same thing.

TheDigitalGardener said:

Chocolate box, jewel box, charade, pink album with white spots....all early boots. Not sure exactly when they were released though. Charade and black album were the first boots I bought around 88-89.

The pink album with white spots was the first one I saw floating around Camden on vinyl.

I actually have that one. It's an aftershow in Paris & it's called Sex Machine. There were mostly tapes back then, mainly Black album tapes & Small Club tapes.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Nah, the same shops where I regularly bought boots started to resupply boots after a cooling down period, except now they weren't in the open and you were only informed if they knew you. I know one shop where they confiscated a bunch of CD boots but totally ignored the vinyl boots during the raid.

What I sais was actually valid for France and I assumed it was the same elsewhere. What country u from?

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Belgium. Not saying this was true for all shops, though. Just happened to be the case for the two I visted regularly.