databank said:

laurarichardson said:

Warner Brothers will be working with him on the masters projects so I do not see how is independent deals have anything to do with the current deal with WB. The fact that the writer thinks that by discussing his misses ( I am sure he does not see it that way) as an independent artist is just the industry being negative about the WB deal.

Let us all be honest P has burned a lot of bridges in the industry and plenty of people are probably not happy at how he keeps getting over. Haters are going to hate.

IDK about that.

Sony (which now owns BMG and Arista) was willing to distribute his last single.

It seems there was no conflict between P and Universal (which now owns EMI) around the release of 3121 so there's no reason to think Universal wouldn't work with him again.

WB just got a new deal with him.

Those are the 3 remaining majors and it seems P is able to work with any of them whenever he so wishes and no matter his past turmoils with some of them.

I was speaking of the thousands of people who work in the industry. When you deal with the top mgmt at any of the record companies you are not dealing with the masses of people below who work at those companies. What about the person who wrote this article? You do not think the article is negative? What about radio program managers? He has put out at least two songs that should have received radio airplay on Urban A/C formats but it did not happen. I do not believe for one minute that everyone in the industry is in love with Prince.

-

databank said:

laurarichardson said:

Warner Brothers will be working with him on the masters projects so I do not see how is independent deals have anything to do with the current deal with WB. The fact that the writer thinks that by discussing his misses ( I am sure he does not see it that way) as an independent artist is just the industry being negative about the WB deal.

Let us all be honest P has burned a lot of bridges in the industry and plenty of people are probably not happy at how he keeps getting over. Haters are going to hate.

IDK about that.

Sony (which now owns BMG and Arista) was willing to distribute his last single.

It seems there was no conflict between P and Universal (which now owns EMI) around the release of 3121 so there's no reason to think Universal wouldn't work with him again.

WB just got a new deal with him.

Those are the 3 remaining majors and it seems P is able to work with any of them whenever he so wishes and no matter his past turmoils with some of them.

I was speaking of the thousands of people who work in the industry. When you deal with the top mgmt at any of the record companies you are not dealing with the masses of people below who work at those companies. What about the person who wrote this article? You do not think the article is negative? What about radio program managers? He has put out at least two songs that should have received radio airplay on Urban A/C formats but it did not happen. I do not believe for one minute that everyone in the industry is in love with Prince.

-

BartVanHemelen said:

laurarichardson said:

Warner Brothers will be working with him on the masters projects so I do not see how is independent deals have anything to do with the current deal with WB. The fact that the writer thinks that by discussing his misses ( I am sure he does not see it that way) as an independent artist is just the industry being negative about the WB deal.

Let us all be honest P has burned a lot of bridges in the industry and plenty of people are probably not happy at how he keeps getting over. Haters are going to hate.

.

I love how you fail to see that all the nonsense you just typed is projection, i.e. this is not what happened, but it is what you would do.

.

The reality is that most/all of those things are failures. At best they provided some short-term gain, but none of them pointed towards a viable, long-term business model.

.

Also, i'm still waiting for the answer to my question: if P's post-WB music was "just as good" as his WB-music, how come P never cares for it to remain available? What is stopping him?

Well let us examine.

1) Warner Brothers will be working with him on the masters’ project –True.

2) What does his independent project have to do with the WB deal – Nothing –True.

3) I am sure Prince does not see the projects as failures since

1. He put them out in the first place (must have been happy with the music)
2. Got paid upfront for the project (made the money he wanted to make off of it so not a failure to him financially.)
3. “The projects were not set up to be viable, long-term business model when they were set up as one –time deals which is what he wanted. “
4. “if P's post-WB music was "just as good" as his WB-music, how come P never cares for it to remain available? What is stopping him?” A couple of things

A) Because he does not want to put the money into a project to make the independent stuff available.

B) Do you think there would be a large market for it?

C) Perhaps he can get WB to pay for reissue.

D) Or maybe he thinks if you missed it you just missed it.

Whatever the case some of his post stuff is good not as good as the WB stuff but the truth of the matter is without a major label supporting you the chances of getting radio airplay and big sales is small no matter what kind of music you put out. Thriller would have bombed if John Smith records had put it out.

I think the whole system sucks and anyone who threatens or questions it is going to have a hard time in the industry. I also do not think that P’s failures are any worst then the failures of the music industry which has had nothing but a decline in sales for years.

laurarichardson said:

databank said:

IDK about that.

Sony (which now owns BMG and Arista) was willing to distribute his last single.

It seems there was no conflict between P and Universal (which now owns EMI) around the release of 3121 so there's no reason to think Universal wouldn't work with him again.

WB just got a new deal with him.

Those are the 3 remaining majors and it seems P is able to work with any of them whenever he so wishes and no matter his past turmoils with some of them.

I was speaking of the thousands of people who work in the industry. When you deal with the top mgmt at any of the record companies you are not dealing with the masses of people below who work at those companies. What about the person who wrote this article? You do not think the article is negative? What about radio program managers? He has put out at least two songs that should have received radio airplay on Urban A/C formats but it did not happen. I do not believe for one minute that everyone in the industry is in love with Prince.

-

Fair enough.

laurarichardson said:

databank said:

IDK about that.

Sony (which now owns BMG and Arista) was willing to distribute his last single.

It seems there was no conflict between P and Universal (which now owns EMI) around the release of 3121 so there's no reason to think Universal wouldn't work with him again.

WB just got a new deal with him.

Those are the 3 remaining majors and it seems P is able to work with any of them whenever he so wishes and no matter his past turmoils with some of them.

I was speaking of the thousands of people who work in the industry. When you deal with the top mgmt at any of the record companies you are not dealing with the masses of people below who work at those companies. What about the person who wrote this article? You do not think the article is negative? What about radio program managers? He has put out at least two songs that should have received radio airplay on Urban A/C formats but it did not happen. I do not believe for one minute that everyone in the industry is in love with Prince.

-

Fair enough.

databank said:

Whether his post WB music is as good as his WB music or not, we know P is full enough of himself not to doubt the qualities of his post WB output. The reason, I think, is that he doesn't care:

Or perhaps he doesn't want to be reminded daily/weekly/monthly/yearly of how big a failure his post-WB output is. Imagine runnign a website selling your music and earning less than the paycheck WB sends each year.

I can hardly imagine Prince thinking "naw, what I did since 1996 is so bad that I'm too ashamed of it to keep it in print": it doesn't really fit the character, does it?

He didn't perform the songs at the time, didn't promote the albums, didn't keep them in print. At some point you just gotta wonder...

laurarichardson said:

A) Because he does not want to put the money into a project to make the independent stuff available.

Yes, let's not invest peanuts to earn money. Great business thinking.

B) Do you think there would be a large market for it?

Isn't this music supposed to be as good as his WB output?

C) Perhaps he can get WB to pay for reissue.

Yeah sure.

D) Or maybe he thinks if you missed it you just missed it.

So let's rejoice that he's now getting his hands on his WB back catalogue, shall we? Let's debate an article that claims Prince could easily make twice as much form his WB back catalogue by getting the rights to his masters. I mean, considering the effort he put into keeping his non-WB catalogue available (including "the album I was born to make", no less), he must be on his way to make billions.

Whatever the case some of his post stuff is good not as good as the WB stuff

Ooooh, heresy.

but the truth of the matter is without a major label supporting you the chances of getting radio airplay and big sales is small no matter what kind of music you put out.

Yes, it is always someone else's fault. Never Prince. Oh, perhaps you noticed that some major labels were involved in several of those albums. How did that go?

My theory: Prince is planning on pimping his combined back catalogue to the highest bidder after this WB contract runs out. And he will be sorely disappointed by the (lack of) offers.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Whether his post WB music is as good as his WB music or not, we know P is full enough of himself not to doubt the qualities of his post WB output. The reason, I think, is that he doesn't care:

Or perhaps he doesn't want to be reminded daily/weekly/monthly/yearly of how big a failure his post-WB output is. Imagine runnign a website selling your music and earning less than the paycheck WB sends each year.

I can hardly imagine Prince thinking "naw, what I did since 1996 is so bad that I'm too ashamed of it to keep it in print": it doesn't really fit the character, does it?

He didn't perform the songs at the time, didn't promote the albums, didn't keep them in print. At some point you just gotta wonder...

U're pushing it a bit too far I think: he DID promote most of his post WB albums, notably by doing a lot of TV shows, and at least on those shows he would always play songs from the last album. I'm quite sure P is quite fond of his latest outputs or he just wouldn't have bothered to release the records in the first place, + some were reasonably big sellers, + there r also many people like me (and critics as well) who enjoyed those records so it's not like everyone universally agrees on saying they're bad. As for playing the stuff live he's just doing what most acts do after 20 years of career: rare are the acts that keep playing new songs instead of turning their shows into greatest hits nostalgia shows. Honest, it's not just Prince, it's most artists.

As for keeping the albums in print, 4 one thing almost each of those records were the result of a one-off deal with a label, either indie or major, and such deals weren't made to outlive the first year or so of the albums, and P has had a "hit and run" strategy ever since he quit WB (even with online stuff, everything disappears one minute after it's been put online, and he can't even keep a website for more than a year or 2). I think eventually all that stuff will be made available in one 4m or another (most likely digital) but at this point P just didn't care.

For me it's mere speculation to think he's not fond of the albums. He may not be convinced by ther commercial value but there's no objective relationship between the commercial value of a record and its musical qualities.

+ Prince has also kept his 2 Madhouse albums, The Family and Jill Jones out of print (among many other Paisley Park albums) so if we follow ur reasoning P would think little of the artistic value of 8 and 16 and The Family and Jill Jones? Commercial value? Yes. Artistic value? No.

So how many artists who have been around 30+ years are shifting the same number of units as they did in their heyday? Even The Beatles and Led Zeppelin (who both sell well through anthologies and remastered sets) do not sell anywhere near what they did in the 60s and 70s respectively!

Even if Prince had stayed with Warner and even if he had worked with them restricting his output and better edit the album content there is still no way on Earth Prince would be selling anything like the volume he did in the mid 80s. He had his moment in the mid 80s (few artists truly get a second "moment").

At that moment the planets aligned briefly for Prince (as an artist AND as a superstar) and Prince firmly steered and was an integral part of the zeitgeis. The greatest (IMHO) artistic decision Prince made while riding that wave (ie Purple Rain) was to record and release ATWIAD so soon after - changing musical direction and all but destroying his commerciality (but ensuring his artistic integrity). Prince *could* easily have delivered PR2 but...

...the dichotomy of Prince is that he wants to have it all: Superstardom (ie sales), artistic integrity (complex arrangements and mix of styles), respect as a musician's musician (his jazz experiments) but these do not work together. That is why he has over the years had so many side projects (in the early days anonymously).

Sales figures are only one measure of success and personal I couldn't care less!

Whether Prince's output over all the post WB albums is as good as the WB albums is completely subjective. It can never sound as fresh or original because he has been around for so long and it is inevitable he would end up repeating himself or even becoming a pastiche of himself (all artists do as there are only so many ideas in the brainbox).

In addition for most of us long term fans we "lived" our lives alongside/with Prince - literally growing up with his musical influence. I suspect most of us were teenagers in the 80s (which is scientifically proven as the time in your life when your emotional memories are most influenced). For THAT reason Prince draws out emotional responses with the music that formed a substantial part of the soundtrack of our youth. How on earth could he compete with that now when we are in our 40s!!!!!

[Edited 5/3/14 7:21am]

jaypotton said:

So how many artists who have been around 30+ years are shifting the same number of units as they did in their heyday? Even The Beatles and Led Zeppelin (who both sell well through anthologies and remastered sets) do not sell anywhere near what they did in the 60s and 70s respectively!

Even if Prince had stayed with Warner and even if he had worked with them restricting his output and better edit the album content there is still no way on Earth Prince would be selling anything like the volume he did in the mid 80s. He had his moment in the mid 80s (few artists truly get a second "moment").

At that moment the planets aligned briefly for Prince (as an artist AND as a superstar) and Prince firmly steered and was an integral part of the zeitgeis. The greatest (IMHO) artistic decision Prince made while riding that wave (ie Purple Rain) was to record and release ATWIAD so soon after - changing musical direction and all but destroying his commerciality (but ensuring his artistic integrity). Prince *could* easily have delivered PR2 but...

...the dichotomy of Prince is that he wants to have it all: Superstardom (ie sales), artistic integrity (complex arrangements and mix of styles), respect as a musician's musician (his jazz experiments) but these do not work together. That is why he has over the years had so many side projects (in the early days anonymously).

Sales figures are only one measure of success and personal I couldn't care less!

Whether Prince's output over all the post WB albums is as good as the WB albums is completely subjective. It can never sound as fresh or original because he has been around for so long and it is inevitable he would end up repeating himself or even becoming a pastiche of himself (all artists do as there are only so many ideas in the brainbox).

In addition for most of us long term fans we "lived" our lives alongside/with Prince - literally growing up with his musical influence. I suspect most of us were teenagers in the 80s (which is scientifically proven as the time in your life when your emotional memories are most influenced). For THAT reason Prince draws out emotional responses with the music that formed a substantial part of the soundtrack of our youth. How on earth could he compete with that now when we are in our 40s!!!!!

[Edited 5/3/14 7:21am]

I think it would have been quite beneficial for Prince to be LESS successful. I mean he could have been successful enough to maintain WB's (or other label's) interest and being allowed to record and release as much as he'd have wanted to but WITHOUT becoming one of the world's major superstars. For one thing the pressure wouldn't have been that big, nor would his (and his label's) sales expectations. In the end when u look at artists like, IDK, Elvis Costello, Beck or even underground artists like John Zorn or Bill Laswell, u see people who make a good living with their music, enjoy the freedom to release whatever they want to (Laswell and Zorn have produced hundreds of albums on their own and various other labels) and aren't constantly obssessed by maintaining their status as both legit artists and superstars at the same time. Bowie has suffered a lot from that dychotomy in the 80's and early 90's. Madonna, after years of finding a great balance, is slowly selling her soul in order to remain a rival to the Kylies, Gagas and Rihannas of the time. P would probably also have stayed more down to earth and been much less isolated and paranoid due to the way hypercelebrity twists your relationship to the whole world, friends, girls, collegues and journalists alike. The success of Purple Rain was at the same time his blessing and his curse. Had PR sold only about 3 to 5 million copies and the movie been only a reasonable success instead of a cultural phenomenon, P would probably have enjoyed a less complicated ride as an artist (and as a person).

databank said:

jaypotton said:

So how many artists who have been around 30+ years are shifting the same number of units as they did in their heyday? Even The Beatles and Led Zeppelin (who both sell well through anthologies and remastered sets) do not sell anywhere near what they did in the 60s and 70s respectively!

Even if Prince had stayed with Warner and even if he had worked with them restricting his output and better edit the album content there is still no way on Earth Prince would be selling anything like the volume he did in the mid 80s. He had his moment in the mid 80s (few artists truly get a second "moment").

At that moment the planets aligned briefly for Prince (as an artist AND as a superstar) and Prince firmly steered and was an integral part of the zeitgeis. The greatest (IMHO) artistic decision Prince made while riding that wave (ie Purple Rain) was to record and release ATWIAD so soon after - changing musical direction and all but destroying his commerciality (but ensuring his artistic integrity). Prince *could* easily have delivered PR2 but...

...the dichotomy of Prince is that he wants to have it all: Superstardom (ie sales), artistic integrity (complex arrangements and mix of styles), respect as a musician's musician (his jazz experiments) but these do not work together. That is why he has over the years had so many side projects (in the early days anonymously).

Sales figures are only one measure of success and personal I couldn't care less!

Whether Prince's output over all the post WB albums is as good as the WB albums is completely subjective. It can never sound as fresh or original because he has been around for so long and it is inevitable he would end up repeating himself or even becoming a pastiche of himself (all artists do as there are only so many ideas in the brainbox).

In addition for most of us long term fans we "lived" our lives alongside/with Prince - literally growing up with his musical influence. I suspect most of us were teenagers in the 80s (which is scientifically proven as the time in your life when your emotional memories are most influenced). For THAT reason Prince draws out emotional responses with the music that formed a substantial part of the soundtrack of our youth. How on earth could he compete with that now when we are in our 40s!!!!!

[Edited 5/3/14 7:21am]

I think it would have been quite beneficial for Prince to be LESS successful. I mean he could have been successful enough to maintain WB's (or other label's) interest and being allowed to record and release as much as he'd have wanted to but WITHOUT becoming one of the world's major superstars. For one thing the pressure wouldn't have been that big, nor would his (and his label's) sales expectations. In the end when u look at artists like, IDK, Elvis Costello, Beck or even underground artists like John Zorn or Bill Laswell, u see people who make a good living with their music, enjoy the freedom to release whatever they want to (Laswell and Zorn have produced hundreds of albums on their own and various other labels) and aren't constantly obssessed by maintaining their status as both legit artists and superstars at the same time. Bowie has suffered a lot from that dychotomy in the 80's and early 90's. Madonna, after years of finding a great balance, is slowly selling her soul in order to remain a rival to the Kylies, Gagas and Rihannas of the time. P would probably also have stayed more down to earth and been much less isolated and paranoid due to the way hypercelebrity twists your relationship to the whole world, friends, girls, collegues and journalists alike. The success of Purple Rain was at the same time his blessing and his curse. Had PR sold only about 3 to 5 million copies and the movie been only a reasonable success instead of a cultural phenomenon, P would probably have enjoyed a less complicated ride as an artist (and as a person).

I would say that there was momentum and expectation that Purple Rain was going to be a hit (and bigger than 1999) but the scale of the success was way more than anyone (including Prince and WB) expected.

databank said:

jaypotton said:

So how many artists who have been around 30+ years are shifting the same number of units as they did in their heyday? Even The Beatles and Led Zeppelin (who both sell well through anthologies and remastered sets) do not sell anywhere near what they did in the 60s and 70s respectively!

Even if Prince had stayed with Warner and even if he had worked with them restricting his output and better edit the album content there is still no way on Earth Prince would be selling anything like the volume he did in the mid 80s. He had his moment in the mid 80s (few artists truly get a second "moment").

At that moment the planets aligned briefly for Prince (as an artist AND as a superstar) and Prince firmly steered and was an integral part of the zeitgeis. The greatest (IMHO) artistic decision Prince made while riding that wave (ie Purple Rain) was to record and release ATWIAD so soon after - changing musical direction and all but destroying his commerciality (but ensuring his artistic integrity). Prince *could* easily have delivered PR2 but...

...the dichotomy of Prince is that he wants to have it all: Superstardom (ie sales), artistic integrity (complex arrangements and mix of styles), respect as a musician's musician (his jazz experiments) but these do not work together. That is why he has over the years had so many side projects (in the early days anonymously).

Sales figures are only one measure of success and personal I couldn't care less!

Whether Prince's output over all the post WB albums is as good as the WB albums is completely subjective. It can never sound as fresh or original because he has been around for so long and it is inevitable he would end up repeating himself or even becoming a pastiche of himself (all artists do as there are only so many ideas in the brainbox).

In addition for most of us long term fans we "lived" our lives alongside/with Prince - literally growing up with his musical influence. I suspect most of us were teenagers in the 80s (which is scientifically proven as the time in your life when your emotional memories are most influenced). For THAT reason Prince draws out emotional responses with the music that formed a substantial part of the soundtrack of our youth. How on earth could he compete with that now when we are in our 40s!!!!!

[Edited 5/3/14 7:21am]

I think it would have been quite beneficial for Prince to be LESS successful. I mean he could have been successful enough to maintain WB's (or other label's) interest and being allowed to record and release as much as he'd have wanted to but WITHOUT becoming one of the world's major superstars. For one thing the pressure wouldn't have been that big, nor would his (and his label's) sales expectations. In the end when u look at artists like, IDK, Elvis Costello, Beck or even underground artists like John Zorn or Bill Laswell, u see people who make a good living with their music, enjoy the freedom to release whatever they want to (Laswell and Zorn have produced hundreds of albums on their own and various other labels) and aren't constantly obssessed by maintaining their status as both legit artists and superstars at the same time. Bowie has suffered a lot from that dychotomy in the 80's and early 90's. Madonna, after years of finding a great balance, is slowly selling her soul in order to remain a rival to the Kylies, Gagas and Rihannas of the time. P would probably also have stayed more down to earth and been much less isolated and paranoid due to the way hypercelebrity twists your relationship to the whole world, friends, girls, collegues and journalists alike. The success of Purple Rain was at the same time his blessing and his curse. Had PR sold only about 3 to 5 million copies and the movie been only a reasonable success instead of a cultural phenomenon, P would probably have enjoyed a less complicated ride as an artist (and as a person).

Something to consider, for sure!

How can he compete indeed? But he's still churning out music aimed at 15-year olds (Breakfast Can Wait, 3eyed Girl)... and I wouldn't even mind that if it were any good....