nursev said:

To this day ive only listened to it in its entirety once

u got my sympathy

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

BartVanHemelen said:

lastdecember said:

Also he was angry because he wanted this release included in the 7 album deal of what he owed them, they said NO this was not a valid release, they did the same thing with the "Girl 6" album citing that was not a valid album from him and had old material on it and proteges

.

Why do you make up stuff? The details WRT the TBA deal are well-known and can be found int he Princepedia on this very site.

.

.

WB released TWO further compilations because those were part of the deal. As for TV and OF4S, I'll quote what I wrote in the Princepedia on this very site ages ago:

.

In the first months of 1996, a termination agreement had been worked out that would allow Prince to leave the label after delivering two more albums instead of the three that he still owed them at that time. Prince also agreed to a reduction of his advances on royalties. Allegedly, Russ Thuret, one of the few remaining execs who had been with WB back when Prince first signed with them had been instrumental in getting Prince out of the deal.
.
The termination agreement was signed on April 26, 1996, at a meeting where Prince handed Warner Bros. Chaos And Disorder and The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, and told them these were the last they should expect from him. Both these records came with the artwork as released, and WB had no say over the contents. Both were rather short (40 minutes) and contained less than a dozen tracks, in sharp contrast to previous records which contained 70+ minutes. It is assumed that Chaos And Disorder and The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale contain "just enough" music as per contractual agreements.
.
(Note that Prince had threatened in an interview from late 1995 to hand WB three albums with "old" music called "The Vault", but that it is unlikely these three albums were actually ever compiled. Most likely this was merely a figure of speech by Prince, a threat to WB.)

.

There is absolutely no indication of P paying WB for the simple reason that WB never handed P money, since none of his releases fulfilled the contractual obligation.

Prince got money from WB plain and simple, he signed the deal, money was advanced, because albums were recorded TGE and Come and all the other little things he was doing was not being done with money he had laying around. TO say Prince signed a deal and never got paid and stayed on this label till it expired and never got money because the albums werent what was promised is false. He would have pulled a George Michael and done nothing if he wasnt getting paid.

Prince's inteview where he cited handing over 3 old albums or at least old material and getting the hell out of there is true, but TBA was part of what he thought could do it, it was not, Chaos worked and the Vault worked TBA was not considered a new album by them. There have been arguments and he said this and they said that, that WB went back on its word of letting "them" release it finally and he stated it could only be sold for a short amount of time, then the whole deal of trading in bootlegs, etc. for the new VALID release.

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

The "high" drug story did not come from Prince or any of his promotional material. It's allegedly Ingrid Chavez who was with him and Anthony Kiedis who supplied the sample pill, and it was his recording engineer that reported some very strange behviour that night, when she was called to the studio in a documented interview (and long after this time period). So this story did not in any way fuel any mystique, it was years after the album had already been officially released much less the initial appearance and popularity of the bootleg.

Plus all it would take is one moment of heartfelt, but drug induced "decision" to then fuel further action based on that seed of belief, moral, or superstition even on a clear mind the next day.

ufoclub said:

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

The "high" drug story did not come from Prince or any of his promotional material. It's allegedly Ingrid Chavez who was with him and Anthony Kiedis who supplied the sample pill, and it was his recording engineer that reported some very strange behviour that night, when she was called to the studio in a documented interview (and long after this time period). So this story did not in any way fuel any mystique, it was years after the album had already been officially released much less the initial appearance and popularity of the bootleg.

Plus all it would take is one moment of heartfelt, but drug induced "decision" to then fuel further action based on that seed of belief, moral, or superstition even on a clear mind the next day.

thats all fine and we all have read the same stories and YES he may have been on drugs numerous times, this myth that he did it once and was enlightened is enhanced to make the albums more interesting is what i am saying, Ingrid has said this story in print, but again there are things Mayte has said in "print" or even in person which we know now were never true or at least stretched to make something more of a legend.

One thing I do know, Rock Hard In A Funky Place is probably the funniest song he has ever written. It is comic genius as good as classic Carlin or Eddie Murphy.

It is devastatingly great music too. Would have been fun to watch him sculp this song in the studio.

2freaky4church1 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

One thing I do know, Rock Hard In A Funky Place is probably the funniest song he has ever written. It is comic genius as good as classic Carlin or Eddie Murphy.

It is devastatingly great music too. Would have been fun to watch him sculp this song in the studio.

yes Prince & Susannah in Camille form

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

Exactly what I was implying. Only Prince knows what was going on with the whole Black Album story. So like lastdecember says who cares what other people say. Prince is the only one who knows the truth.

BobGeorge909 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

One thing I do know, Rock Hard In A Funky Place is probably the funniest song he has ever written. It is comic genius as good as classic Carlin or Eddie Murphy.

It is devastatingly great music too. Would have been fun to watch him sculp this song in the studio.

The phrase 'soaked in banana cologne' alone is classic and hilarious. Then there's all the other hilarious lines. I'd love to see a storyboard sequence or animated short putting forth the various predicaments described.

TBA is one of those unique albums where I felt like I could really visualize the tracks just as one does when they read a good book. I think that's what made it so good to me. I've always had my own storyboard sequence in my imagination when listening to it. Same with the song Crystal Ball (which would have fit perfectly on TBA to me) It had that same Bob George vibe to me. I pictured him with the wire rim glasses in a run down inner city apartment with a girl tied up in the corner of the room as he had his way with her. Twisted? Yep but that's what my imagination came up with. Especially with the scream towards the end. I guess that's the one advantage of music not having a video to accompany it with some directors vision of the song. More fun that way sometimes.

.

I found it quite funny hearing critics refer to TBA as a stripped down rock album b4 it was to be released. When I 1st got my hands on it I was like WTF were they talking about? Rock album? Then after it was cancelled or pulled the immediate story out there was that WB were the ones who decided to pull the plug because it was not up to Prince's standards. I specifically remember that being the story at the time. Of course I was 17 at the time and gullible what I read and heard.

.

Once it was cancelled and there was talk of copies surviving I became obsessed with finding it. Once I did find a crappy cassette boot I felt like I won the lottery or something. Great times indeed!

.

Drug induced epiphany or not one has to wonder if he realised there really wasn't a radio ready hit to be had and probably would not be well received by the masses. Sure the hardcore fans would dig it but commercially it may have been a huge flop. Just my personal speculation.

.

Call it living in the past or whatever but I still say that 1983-1988 was the peak of his creativity. As much as I like Lovesexy I always considered it to be the 1st album on the other side his peak. Saying it was the beginning of the end is ridiculously harsh but I felt like things changed so much after that. Can't really put it into words. Maybe the end of an era would be a better way to put it.

.

Great thread! I've enjoyed reading all the responses.

BobGeorge909 said:

paulludvig said:

Well, ok. But the official story isn't that plausible either:

"The decision appeared to be made after experiencing some heavy hallucinations when using the drug Ecstasy. In what he has called a vision the letter G O D were hovering over a field."

The story doesn't simply suggest that Prince experienced hallucinations from Ecstasy use (in itself somewhat unusual), but that Prince kept acting on those hallucinations for several months (at least). Prolonged drug induced psychosis can certainly happen, but is not consistent with Prince's ability to handle his business at the time (recording a new album, prepering a complex live show and going on tour and so forth). The official story doesn't ring true.

[Edited 4/8/14 7:19am]

[Edited 4/8/14 7:43am]

Nothing says that prince was in some drug induced psychosis for several months cuz he made a decision while high and stuck with it. One can make a decision while high, come down from high and and see good reasons and rational as to why that decision made while high can avoid rejection. Thank god Steve jobs didn't reject and abandon ideas he developed while high after he sobered up simply cuz he made them while high or prince may not have been able to sell that silly purple opus iPod with the concert footage installed on it(a decision made while presumably sober...lol)

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

I'm so sick and tired of u people trying to spread the same lies every time we're trying to have a serious discussion about The Black Album! And even more of your hypocrisy starting every post by "fact is that" and ending by "but of course no one knows". Either it's fact or it's theory and either way either they're backed by something substential or they're not.

Prince's certainly didn't put the words "ecstasy" and "don't buy the Black Album" in the Alphabet St. video for nothing. So now of course u gonna say it was a marketing ploy except that u conveniently forget that the ecstasy story didn't pop-up before YEARS after that, when Per Nielsen and the Uptown team did research about it in the mid to late 90's. The story has been corroborated by WB execs and Susan Rogers among others, all people who certainly had no interest in creating a big hoax which would, at this point, have involved a conspiracy since their stories were cohesive.

And that's really not knowing shit about Prince to believe he's not enough of a religious fanatic to cancel an album over a speiritual hallucination or revelation or whatever u call it. I myself spoke privately with an ex Prince associate once who told me that P was full of shit on many accounts but that each and every one of his religious things were absolutely honest, sincere and highly exalted.

And comparing the serious research of Per Nielsen to tabloid gossips about Mayte is really... lame and disrespectful for the dedicated work of Nielsen and Uptown Mag.

I know that I won't make u change ur mind and that u're gonna keep spreading ur lies until the end of time but there are people here who may believe u so I'll fight this BS until the end of time as well, and I'll tell whoever's in doubt to go and read the few serious books that have been written about P and as many ex associates interviews as they can instead of believing all the BS they read online.

The only fact is that every one ever asked about the BA fiasco told the same story and that these people weren't under Prince's influence in any way when they so did, that the whole story wasn't made public after more than a decade after things happened (a little late for marketing if u ask me) and that everything P said about it, even if he didn't go into details, goes in the same direction.

There is NOT A SINGLE factual element to corroborate ur theories, so as far as I'm concerned and until u have more solid elements to provide, u're lying like a rug or so full of urself that u believe that anything u believe out of intuition has to be true just because u believe it. U probably believe that George W. Bush blew up the WTC and that aliens secretely rule the world as well, don't u?

And this with all due respect, I don't mean to attack u personally, but there r people here who are trying to separate the facts and do some serious research work about P's work and biography and being one of them, I just can't let u say what u say and get away with it.

joyinrepetition said:

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

Exactly what I was implying. Only Prince knows what was going on with the whole Black Album story. So like lastdecember says who cares what other people say. Prince is the only one who knows the truth.

See my answer right above.

SmiggyG said:

BobGeorge909 said:

2freaky4church1 said: The phrase 'soaked in banana cologne' alone is classic and hilarious. Then there's all the other hilarious lines. I'd love to see a storyboard sequence or animated short putting forth the various predicaments described.

TBA is one of those unique albums where I felt like I could really visualize the tracks just as one does when they read a good book. I think that's what made it so good to me. I've always had my own storyboard sequence in my imagination when listening to it. Same with the song Crystal Ball (which would have fit perfectly on TBA to me) It had that same Bob George vibe to me. I pictured him with the wire rim glasses in a run down inner city apartment with a girl tied up in the corner of the room as he had his way with her. Twisted? Yep but that's what my imagination came up with. Especially with the scream towards the end. I guess that's the one advantage of music not having a video to accompany it with some directors vision of the song. More fun that way sometimes.

.

I found it quite funny hearing critics refer to TBA as a stripped down rock album b4 it was to be released. When I 1st got my hands on it I was like WTF were they talking about? Rock album? Then after it was cancelled or pulled the immediate story out there was that WB were the ones who decided to pull the plug because it was not up to Prince's standards. I specifically remember that being the story at the time. Of course I was 17 at the time and gullible what I read and heard.

.

Once it was cancelled and there was talk of copies surviving I became obsessed with finding it. Once I did find a crappy cassette boot I felt like I won the lottery or something. Great times indeed!

.

Drug induced epiphany or not one has to wonder if he realised there really wasn't a radio ready hit to be had and probably would not be well received by the masses. Sure the hardcore fans would dig it but commercially it may have been a huge flop. Just my personal speculation.

.

Call it living in the past or whatever but I still say that 1983-1988 was the peak of his creativity. As much as I like Lovesexy I always considered it to be the 1st album on the other side his peak. Saying it was the beginning of the end is ridiculously harsh but I felt like things changed so much after that. Can't really put it into words. Maybe the end of an era would be a better way to put it.

.

Great thread! I've enjoyed reading all the responses.

It would have sold very modestly and it was intended to, the same way Madhouse was never intended to sell 4M copies. It wasn't intended to be the new "Prince" album, it was supposed to be a hide and seek game the way Camille has also been envisioned a year earlier. Prince probably seeked recognition from the same hispters that had raved about Dirty Mind in 1980 and it was more about giving him some credibility as an artist than about making him a bigger superstar. TBA was, in a way, Prince's Tin Machine. The way P wanted a drastic change of sound after PR and asked WB to promote ATWIAD as little as possible with no promo video or single at first, the way he decided to make the very intellectual IIWYG SOTT's second single against everyone's advice, the way he decided to release 8 as a "Madhouse" album because he feared critics would shoot him down he released it as "Prince", the way he was desperately thinking of parallel ways to release his music outside of the "Prince superstar" umbrella with Camille then TBA shows that, as many other artists before and since him, from Bowie to Tricky, he was not at ease with his superstar status threatening his image as an artist of integrity. P (once again like many other musicians) has always been schyzophrenic in that regard, wanting to be seen as an underground independent and free artist and at the same time wanting to be considered one of the biggest superstars in the industry: it's hard to be both these things at the same time and still, it's even harder to give up on any of them. That's how we end-up with him releasing NEWS with virtually no promo on an indy label a year and Musicalogy on a major with lots of promo the next year. Even 3EG is an attempt for him to get back to his underground roots if u ask me, and so was the reduced NPG line-up in 94 when he played the "I'm an indy artist" card in the middle of the WB wars (and at the same time released TMBGITW which is one of his most commercial songs ever ).

This, I'll add for the sake of honesty, is a personnal analysis based on career facts but never stated as such by Prince or his associates.

fbueller said:

If canceling The Black Album was simply a marketing ploy surely Prince/Warner Bros would have decided to release the album once they saw it become popular as a bootleg. Why would they intentionally miss out on so many record sales? Especially at a time when Prince reportedly needed to generate more revenue.

There was talk about releasing it in as early as 1991. It was eventually released in 1994.

databank said:

It would have sold very modestly and it was intended to, the same way Madhouse was never intended to sell 4M copies. It wasn't intended to be the new "Prince" album, it was supposed to be a hide and seek game the way Camille has also been envisioned a year earlier. Prince probably seeked recognition from the same hispters that had raved about Dirty Mind in 1980 and it was more about giving him some credibility as an artist than about making him a bigger superstar. TBA was, in a way, Prince's Tin Machine. The way P wanted a drastic change of sound after PR and asked WB to promote ATWIAD as little as possible with no promo video or single at first, the way he decided to make the very intellectual IIWYG SOTT's second single against everyone's advice, the way he decided to release 8 as a "Madhouse" album because he feared critics would shoot him down he released it as "Prince", the way he was desperately thinking of parallel ways to release his music outside of the "Prince superstar" umbrella with Camille then TBA shows that, as many other artists before and since him, from Bowie to Tricky, he was not at ease with his superstar status threatening his image as an artist of integrity. P (once again like many other musicians) has always been schyzophrenic in that regard, wanting to be seen as an underground independent and free artist and at the same time wanting to be considered one of the biggest superstars in the industry: it's hard to be both these things at the same time and still, it's even harder to give up on any of them. That's how we end-up with him releasing NEWS with virtually no promo on an indy label a year and Musicalogy on a major with lots of promo the next year. Even 3EG is an attempt for him to get back to his underground roots if u ask me, and so was the reduced NPG line-up in 94 when he played the "I'm an indy artist" card in the middle of the WB wars (and at the same time released TMBGITW which is one of his most commercial songs ever ).

This, I'll add for the sake of honesty, is a personnal analysis based on career facts but never stated as such by Prince or his associates.

I totally agree. He has a long history of releasing his music or even writing music under a different alias names to try and distance the project from his "Prince" career. One could even argue somewhat that the Time albums fall into that category with the illusion they were his direct competition.

.

As said b4, TBA like ATWIAD was to have little or no promotion. It was even rumored at the time that the album was to only have the catalog number printed on it and nothing else with an all black cover. Hense the name "The Black Album"

.

Funny thing is that most of the info/news and rumors at the time came from "wreka stow" owners and managers. That was my hangout back in the day. Sad to see most of them are all gone.

databank said:

I'm so sick and tired of u people trying to spread the same lies every time we're trying to have a serious discussion about The Black Album! And even more of your hypocrisy starting every post by "fact is that" and ending by "but of course no one knows". Either it's fact or it's theory and either way either they're backed by something substential or they're not.

Prince's certainly didn't put the words "ecstasy" and "don't buy the Black Album" in the Alphabet St. video for nothing. So now of course u gonna say it was a marketing ploy except that u conveniently forget that the ecstasy story didn't pop-up before YEARS after that, when Per Nielsen and the Uptown team did research about it in the mid to late 90's. The story has been corroborated by WB execs and Susan Rogers among others, all people who certainly had no interest in creating a big hoax which would, at this point, have involved a conspiracy since their stories were cohesive.

And that's really not knowing shit about Prince to believe he's not enough of a religious fanatic to cancel an album over a speiritual hallucination or revelation or whatever u call it. I myself spoke privately with an ex Prince associate once who told me that P was full of shit on many accounts but that each and every one of his religious things were absolutely honest, sincere and highly exalted.

And comparing the serious research of Per Nielsen to tabloid gossips about Mayte is really... lame and disrespectful for the dedicated work of Nielsen and Uptown Mag.

I know that I won't make u change ur mind and that u're gonna keep spreading ur lies until the end of time but there are people here who may believe u so I'll fight this BS until the end of time as well, and I'll tell whoever's in doubt to go and read the few serious books that have been written about P and as many ex associates interviews as they can instead of believing all the BS they read online.

The only fact is that every one ever asked about the BA fiasco told the same story and that these people weren't under Prince's influence in any way when they so did, that the whole story wasn't made public after more than a decade after things happened (a little late for marketing if u ask me) and that everything P said about it, even if he didn't go into details, goes in the same direction.

There is NOT A SINGLE factual element to corroborate ur theories, so as far as I'm concerned and until u have more solid elements to provide, u're lying like a rug or so full of urself that u believe that anything u believe out of intuition has to be true just because u believe it. U probably believe that George W. Bush blew up the WTC and that aliens secretely rule the world as well, don't u?

And this with all due respect, I don't mean to attack u personally, but there r people here who are trying to separate the facts and do some serious research work about P's work and biography and being one of them, I just can't let u say what u say and get away with it.

Susan Rogers only said that she met Prince at PP and it looked as if Prince was high because he acted strange and she noticed that his pupils were dilated. She has never claimed to know the details about what happened that night. How could she? And she certainly has no way of knowing how (or even if) the experiences that night had any influence on Prince's decision to cancel TBA. Who are the other witnesses?

Alternative theories are of course pure speculation. You're right about that. But to say we know for certain the facts about the cancelation of TBA is a stretch.

paulludvig said:

databank said:

I'm so sick and tired of u people trying to spread the same lies every time we're trying to have a serious discussion about The Black Album! And even more of your hypocrisy starting every post by "fact is that" and ending by "but of course no one knows". Either it's fact or it's theory and either way either they're backed by something substential or they're not.

Prince's certainly didn't put the words "ecstasy" and "don't buy the Black Album" in the Alphabet St. video for nothing. So now of course u gonna say it was a marketing ploy except that u conveniently forget that the ecstasy story didn't pop-up before YEARS after that, when Per Nielsen and the Uptown team did research about it in the mid to late 90's. The story has been corroborated by WB execs and Susan Rogers among others, all people who certainly had no interest in creating a big hoax which would, at this point, have involved a conspiracy since their stories were cohesive.

And that's really not knowing shit about Prince to believe he's not enough of a religious fanatic to cancel an album over a speiritual hallucination or revelation or whatever u call it. I myself spoke privately with an ex Prince associate once who told me that P was full of shit on many accounts but that each and every one of his religious things were absolutely honest, sincere and highly exalted.

And comparing the serious research of Per Nielsen to tabloid gossips about Mayte is really... lame and disrespectful for the dedicated work of Nielsen and Uptown Mag.

I know that I won't make u change ur mind and that u're gonna keep spreading ur lies until the end of time but there are people here who may believe u so I'll fight this BS until the end of time as well, and I'll tell whoever's in doubt to go and read the few serious books that have been written about P and as many ex associates interviews as they can instead of believing all the BS they read online.

The only fact is that every one ever asked about the BA fiasco told the same story and that these people weren't under Prince's influence in any way when they so did, that the whole story wasn't made public after more than a decade after things happened (a little late for marketing if u ask me) and that everything P said about it, even if he didn't go into details, goes in the same direction.

There is NOT A SINGLE factual element to corroborate ur theories, so as far as I'm concerned and until u have more solid elements to provide, u're lying like a rug or so full of urself that u believe that anything u believe out of intuition has to be true just because u believe it. U probably believe that George W. Bush blew up the WTC and that aliens secretely rule the world as well, don't u?

And this with all due respect, I don't mean to attack u personally, but there r people here who are trying to separate the facts and do some serious research work about P's work and biography and being one of them, I just can't let u say what u say and get away with it.

Susan Rogers only said that she met Prince at PP and it looked as if Prince was high because he acted strange and she noticed that his pupils were dilated. She has never claimed to know the details about what happened that night. How could she? And she certainly has no way of knowing how (or even if) the experiences that night had any influence on Prince's decision to cancel TBA. Who are the other witnesses?

Alternative theories are of course pure speculation. You're right about that. But to say we know for certain the facts about the cancelation of TBA is a stretch.

Naw there was also at least someone else - a WB exec IIRC- he called that night and who said he was totally NOT himself, it's in DMSR and maybe also in Possessed, and I think Cat also mentioned she was also involved in getting him the x in a recent innerview (Dye maybe?), and even though I don't think I've read it it seems that Ingrid spoke about it as well if we're to believe earlier posts in dat thread.

Anyway my point isn't so much that we know every detail but the fact that, as u say, any other theory is pure speculation and I don't see the point in going that way without any further solid elements. Or then anyone can just as well invent any crazy story about Prince and his songs and say that just because it makes sense to them it has to be an option or a fact.

It's just like Prince leaking boots or Prince being gay or bi, or Prince having written Strange But True about Vanity or the backwards message in Darling Nikki being addressed to the Devil because Prince is secretely a satannist and other crazy stories we've read here... Next thing I know Prince wrote Open Book for Tony M. because he was sleeping with him and sad that Tony was not ready to commit in a relationship with him, and Prince leaked his version before it ended-up on Jevetta Steele's album as a way to send a message to Tony. I'm sure it's true so we can make it a fact. And while we're at it I think Prince ghostwrote and ghostproduced Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines because to me it sounds like a Prince song so there's no discussion about it, my theory is worth any other and we can also make this a fact. How about that?

paulludvig said:

databank said:

For once I totally agree with u. These conspiracy theories about Prince planning the whole TBA "event" from the beginning (cancellation and leaks) annoy me as hell...

Well, ok. But the official story isn't that plausible either:

"The decision appeared to be made after experiencing some heavy hallucinations when using the drug Ecstasy. In what he has called a vision the letter G O D were hovering over a field."

The story doesn't simply suggest that Prince experienced hallucinations from Ecstasy use (in itself somewhat unusual), but that Prince kept acting on those hallucinations for several months (at least).

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What is so unbelievable about p mistaking a bad trip for a religious epiphany? That is completely in character for P. It is the simplest explanation, and makes a hell of a lot more sense than the giant conspiracy where destroying hundreds of thousands of records was in fact a calculated move to "secretely" release an album.

databank said:

joyinrepetition said:

Don't get your panties all bunched up! I said from the beginning that this is a "what if" scenario. I know the whole Black Album story all too well.

The only person who knows the real story behind everything is Prince! Not you and not me. We are all guessing.

No he's not and no we are not. When u invent/spread a theory that goes against every known fact, against every account of these events by the people who were around at the time and without any factual element to support your theories u r not guessing: u r making things up, because the way I read what u wrote, "what if" is a subtle and manipulative way to say "it is". This is not a "what if" thread.

When u start turning personal theories into "believable" theories just because you believe that the fact that YOU believe that it's a believable theory despite the fact that it goes against everything u know makes it a believable theory, and when u say that no one but Prince knows when each and every one of the people that were there gave a single, cohesive version of the story, including people who had left P's camp for more than a decade and didn't hesitate to criticize him on other accounts, u r trying to bend reality to your own fantasies and you are doing nothing but spreading lies.

I'm sorry but this is something I cannot accept, Princewise or anyothertopicwise.

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Exactly.

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Getting so sick of this "all opinions are valid" crap. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts. If an opinion does not go with the facts, it isn't an opinion but a bunch of BS and it should be labeled as such.

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There's a whole lot of P history that is a dark hole, but the history surrounding TBA is well documented ever since Per Nilsen published DMSR.

ufoclub said:

Of course Prince did, in a sense, promote the Black Album (though it was a bootleg out of his control and art direction) in the sense that he would quote lyrics, and even played tracks live during the Lovesexy concerts,

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As part of the "I was a sinner" part of the gig, yes. Let's also not forget that the "brother Maurice/squirrel meat" lyric was already around during SOTT. And the artwork for the I Wish U Heaven B-Side Scarlet Pussy was obviously TBA-like for a reason.

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It is clear that the religious epiphany wore of in the months afterwards and P regained his previous balance (and business sense). And then by then end of 1988 he really snapped out of it, realised his Lovesexy gigs had cost him millions, fired his management and cleaned house, and started work on far more prosaic music, culminating in the Batman soundtrack which mixed the two sides (good/bad - Batman/Joker). Also in 1989 he took the Lovesexy Tour to Japan, stripped most of the religious messages and made a ton of money.

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed

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Except for all those witnesses who went oN RECORD with their stories.

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Oh wait, did I just debunk your BS with actual facts?

lastdecember said:

Prince got money from WB plain and simple, he signed the deal, money was advanced, because albums were recorded TGE and Come and all the other little things he was doing was not being done with money he had laying around.

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You really don't know anything about P.

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TO say Prince signed a deal and never got paid and stayed on this label till it expired and never got money because the albums werent what was promised is false.

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There were strict rules about advances and royalties, simple as that. Wb wasn't gonna give P $5 million advances when P never bothered to deliver on the requirements.

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Prince's inteview where he cited handing over 3 old albums or at least old material and getting the hell out of there is true, but TBA was part of what he thought could do it, it was not, Chaos worked and the Vault worked TBA was not considered a new album by them. There have been arguments and he said this and they said that, that WB went back on its word of letting "them" release it finally and he stated it could only be sold for a short amount of time, then the whole deal of trading in bootlegs, etc. for the new VALID release.

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NONE of what you said is documented. We know damn well what happened, because the people involved have clearly spilled the beans. I bet one of them was P's lawyer, the one who negociated the TBA deal only to see it fall through while he was on his way to WB because P once again changed his mind. Notice how the story in the Princepedia (sourced from Uptown etc) features names and dates etc. and your story is a bunch on uninformed conjecture which displays zero knowledge of record industry workings. Do you really think WB handed Prince a $100 million cheque?

joyinrepetition said:

lastdecember said:

Fact is that this was all marketing, and planned. We can claim that Prince was high and this and that, but none of it was ever confirmed, a story told to create a bigger story around "good" and "evil", the Light and the Dark. The whole Lovesexy concept is fighting agains that side of "evil" or "darkness" of course a story and myth is going to be created around it. We forget that Prince is still this person who creates mystery for his own benefit he always did, is he black or white, straight or gay, male or female, why would he stop at god and the devil. Back in the 80's when this story was told it was "WOW" radical thats what he did, now its totally see through, and again nothing is or has ever been confirmed, has Prince said i took drugs and tripped and pulled back the record, Prince has never said he took drugs in his life. There were accounts that he was on "depressants" during the death of his child, this was reported by the hospital that claimed to have prescribed it and Mayte's 2 nanny's for the child got these drugs for him, this again was never ever confirmed and was a sold story to the enquirer. Nothing about PRINCE is concrete, i dont care what pepe willie says or Dez Dickerson or Wendy or Lisa, blah blah blah, the guy is an enigma and even if he says it, i dont believe it.

Exactly what I was implying. Only Prince knows what was going on with the whole Black Album story. So like lastdecember says who cares what other people say. Prince is the only one who knows the truth.

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NONE of what the two of you write is based in fact. NONE. NOTHING. ZILCH.

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But plenty of it DEBUNKED by KNOWN FACTS.

paulludvig said:

fbueller said:

If canceling The Black Album was simply a marketing ploy surely Prince/Warner Bros would have decided to release the album once they saw it become popular as a bootleg. Why would they intentionally miss out on so many record sales? Especially at a time when Prince reportedly needed to generate more revenue.

There was talk about releasing it in as early as 1991. It was eventually released in 1994.

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Yes, three frikking years after the fact. At a time it had been a legendary bootleg for ages. fbueller clearly is talking about the time in 1988 when TBA began to leak and was reported in music magazines etc.

paulludvig said:

Susan Rogers only said that she met Prince at PP and it looked as if Prince was high because he acted strange and she noticed that his pupils were dilated. She has never claimed to know the details about what happened that night. How could she?

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Yes, it is well-known people don't talk to each other, especially about strange events.

BartVanHemelen said:

paulludvig said:

Well, ok. But the official story isn't that plausible either:

"The decision appeared to be made after experiencing some heavy hallucinations when using the drug Ecstasy. In what he has called a vision the letter G O D were hovering over a field."

The story doesn't simply suggest that Prince experienced hallucinations from Ecstasy use (in itself somewhat unusual), but that Prince kept acting on those hallucinations for several months (at least).

.

What is so unbelievable about p mistaking a bad trip for a religious epiphany? That is completely in character for P. It is the simplest explanation, and makes a hell of a lot more sense than the giant conspiracy where destroying hundreds of thousands of records was in fact a calculated move to "secretely" release an album.

My original point wasn't that Prince planned all the events in advance, but that he saw an opportunity and went with it, thereby de facto releasing a double album with the two discs distributed separately. As to facts and sources - I'm a bit surprised that so many people take everything written in books as gospel.

databank said:

Naw there was also at least someone else - a WB exec IIRC- he called that night and who said he was totally NOT himself, it's in DMSR and maybe also in Possessed, and I think Cat also mentioned she was also involved in getting him the x in a recent innerview (Dye maybe?), and even though I don't think I've read it it seems that Ingrid spoke about it as well if we're to believe earlier posts in dat thread.

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There's also a difference between what people say ON the record and OFF the record. Per Nilsen made it clear that he required at least two sources for these kind of stories; I bet that he got at least half a dozen of off the record testimonies about what happened that night from people who were directly or indirectly involved.

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I bet he got plenty of things along the line of X saying (s)he heard that Y was with P and had told her/him abc, and that Per then called Y and asked "well I heard that you told abc, is that true?" Very few or none of these people will go on record, because they still got royalty cheques coming regularly and they know what happens when you rock the boat (go ask Levi).

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The simple fact that this story is presented as fact in DMSR speaks volumes, and to this day it has not been contradicted or proven wrong, quite the contrary.