Back during the Rave era I remember watching the "yahoo! music awards". Prince presented a award to public enemy with flava flav.

During the acceptance speech Flav starts practicaly strugling to hug Prince and say how much he loves him, to the point where security had to literally rip him off .

He gets loose and runs back to his "Homie" Prince. ...

But this is the kicker.. somewhat of perturbed of Flavor flavs antics, Prince rips flavs Mic from his hands and throws it on the ground by his feet !

lol... yo!' in hiphop culture, if some one was to ever steal a man's mic right from his hands. That is Serious heat ... Prince was just so leisure about it.

Flavor flav picks up his mic and says to the crowd.

"You see that, The only person who can do that to me is Prince.

any one else, gets knocked the F%#K out". Like he had the utmost respect for him.

Can anyone else confirm seeing this, or am I just going more crazy than I already am ? ?

Hip-hop culture had/has a deep-seated, endemic, fear of men being publically comfortable with their femininity and yet still remain masculine. P appeared to strip away many of those cultural boundaries and stereotypes unwittingly, because he was completely alien and different, to most men. The fact that he killed it as a musician (and a seriously funky one at that) AND found time to be the mercurial ladies man that he once was, all whilst wearing eyeliner, lace and heels, ironically meant that he got at least the same, if not more, respect from hip-hop culture as the greatest beat makers in the industry. Prince was instinctually right, though. He was better than hip-hop, but he failed to rise above it. I think the evidence would point to his becoming afraid, perhaps quite understandably, as he got into his middle years.

SpiritOtter said:

skywalker said:

SpiritOtter said:

Hip-hop culture had/has a deep-seated, endemic, fear of men being publically comfortable with their femininity and yet still remain masculine. P appeared to strip away many of those cultural boundaries and stereotypes unwittingly, because he was completely alien and different, to most men. The fact that he killed it as a musician (and a seriously funky one at that) AND found time to be the mercurial ladies man that he once was, all whilst wearing eyeliner, lace and heels, ironically meant that he got at least the same, if not more, respect from hip-hop culture as the greatest beat makers in the industry. Prince was instinctually right, though. He was better than hip-hop, but he failed to rise above it. I think the evidence would point to his becoming afraid, perhaps quite understandably, as he got into his middle years.

Failed to rise above it? What does that mean? Like he should have ignored it and not incorporated ANY hip hop elements into his purple mix? Sounds elitist and very un-Prince like. - I don't think he feared hip hop at all. Maybe he was too pretty/sexy for it, but afraid is inaccurate. He took it on/embraced it whilst wearing the very heels/eyeliner/lace that you described. Someone that is "afraid" of hip hop doesn't rap whilst wearing heels and an oh so glam chain mask. It's called style. You got it? [Edited 9/13/13 13:25pm] [Edited 9/13/13 13:25pm]

Honestly, I don't think you get it, but equally, I don't have the desire to explain it beond the following, either. Prince's instincts were abundantly clear on THE BLACK ALBUM. Fast forward a few years, and financial loss after financial loss, and you have the likes of the male-dominated "black" NPG band as well as the incorporating of more and more hip-hop, new jack swing and mainstream RnB elements to the point that he produced a record called GOLDNIGGA, featuring songs like BLACK MF IN THE HOUSE! C'mon. Prince was afraid. He became a wholesale follower of a trend, rather than conservatively incorporating this one sound amongst his natural progression as an artist. Even a cursory listen to his music since 1990 and you can sense that he has largely become an RnB pop artist, which is quite distinct from his rich musical heritage and trajectory within the 80s where he was interweaving a myriad of broader cultural and sonic influences. He no longer uniquovically trailblazed his own artistic path, but started to follow what was selling. Effectively, he started attempting to become a BUSINESS man from the 1990s onwards, but he has only really come into his own from a successful business model perspective since Musicology. Ultimately, he got what he wanted; to be independent. But it hasn't come without a serious degree of blood, sweat and tears. I give him a lot of respect and still continue to.

[Edited 9/13/13 13:48pm]

yea I agree with otter 100% great posts.

skywalker is right to in a way

nyse said:

yea I agree with otter 100% great posts.

skywalker is right to in a way

well no. I don't remember it and nobody else has confirmed it, so at the moment you're unfortunately just as crazy as you think you are. Check yourself in.

I found a link to a screen cap of Prince and flav that night

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1427073/public-enemy-prince-take-spotlight-at-yahoo-online-music-awards.jhtml

SpiritOtter said:

skywalker said:

SpiritOtter said: Failed to rise above it? What does that mean? Like he should have ignored it and not incorporated ANY hip hop elements into his purple mix? Sounds elitist and very un-Prince like. - I don't think he feared hip hop at all. Maybe he was too pretty/sexy for it, but afraid is inaccurate. He took it on/embraced it whilst wearing the very heels/eyeliner/lace that you described. Someone that is "afraid" of hip hop doesn't rap whilst wearing heels and an oh so glam chain mask. It's called style. You got it? [Edited 9/13/13 13:25pm] [Edited 9/13/13 13:25pm]

Honestly, I don't think you get it, but equally, I don't have the desire to explain it beond the following, either. Prince's instincts were abundantly clear on THE BLACK ALBUM. Fast forward a few years, and financial loss after financial loss, and you have the likes of the male-dominated "black" NPG band as well as the incorporating of more and more hip-hop, new jack swing and mainstream RnB elements to the point that he produced a record called GOLDNIGGA, featuring songs like BLACK MF IN THE HOUSE! C'mon. Prince was afraid. He became a wholesale follower of a trend, rather than conservatively incorporating this one sound amongst his natural progression as an artist. Even a cursory listen to his music since 1990 and you can sense that he has largely become an RnB pop artist, which is quite distinct from his rich musical heritage and trajectory within the 80s where he was interweaving a myriad of broader cultural and sonic influences. He no longer uniquovically trailblazed his own artistic path, but started to follow what was selling. Effectively, he started attempting to become a BUSINESS man from the 1990s onwards, but he has only really come into his own from a successful business model perspective since Musicology. Ultimately, he got what he wanted; to be independent. But it hasn't come without a serious degree of blood, sweat and tears. I give him a lot of respect and still continue to.

[Edited 9/13/13 13:48pm]

*

So, when Prince has a majority white band or a mixed band, he is a “trailblazer,” but when he has a mostly black band he is “afraid” and a “trend follower”?

*

1. The vast majority of American and European pop music is based in the blues with variations of soul and gospel, and Prince’s foundation (bottom) has always been firmly rooted in this, even during the “multicultural 80s”.

*

2. From 1978 - 1988 Prince wasn’t doing anything that black artists, such as Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, George Clinton, etc., had not already done; he was just doing it well. What made it so “different” is that he was one of the few “black” artists at the time who was willing to fight to reclaim the full heritage of “black” music. So, he wasn’t trailblazing so much as he was relighting the path or reintroducing or reminding the world of the diversity and brilliance of black culture. During the 80s I realized that Prince’s music is great/wonderful, but I never thought that nobody had ever done this before because others had.

*

3. Of course, tastes vary, but Prince has remained just as diverse from 2000 to 2013 as he was during the 80s. His sounds are just as eclectic. One may not like those sounds as much as the sounds as the 80s, but over the past thirteen years he has written an equal amount of rock, funk, and R&B songs so to say that he "has largely become an RnB pop artist" is just flawed based on the eclectic sounds that he has delivered: “Fury,” “Guitar,” “Colonized Mind” (which is a rip off), and “Screwdriver” on one end of the spectrum and “Satisfied,” “Chelsea Rodgers,” “Dance 4 Me,” and “Ain’t Gone Miss U When U Gone” on the other end of the spectrum. And even with these, Prince has continued to produce other songs that have no definable category, such as “Cinnamon Girl,” “The Word,” “The Lion of Judah,” “The One U Wanna C,” “Boom,” and “No More Candy 4 U”. One may not like these songs, but ain’t nobody else out there producing these types of varying sounds. And none of these songs define Prince as “largely an RnB pop artist”.

*

4. Since Prince’s foundation (bottom) is funk/soul, he would not incorporate rap/hip hop in the same manner as someone like Beck, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against the Machine, etc. That doesn’t make him “afraid”; that makes him his own person. Secondly, I will admit that it seems that initially Prince didn’t really respect rap so much as he just wanted to prove that he could do it, which is one of the reasons his early rap is so hideous to so many. However, since I’m not a regular connoisseur of rap, Prince’s rapping has never bothered me, expect the rap in “Mr. Goodnight.” That’s just damn hideous/goofy/juvenile…well, you get the picture.

*

5. If Prince just wanted money and had been this “sell-out” to trends or a whore for money that many people claim, he would have surrendered to and cashed in the “Revolution Reunion” card a long time ago, he would have released several albums with the latest “hot” producers a long time ago, and he would have a much different attitude toward the internet. Instead, he continues to follow that mega-loud voice in his head that causes him to orbit mostly in Prince-ville. Yes, Prince continues to make deals to get large sums of money, but those deals usually are performing at festivals or record release deals where he retains full control and ownership of the content of the album.

1725topp, it may or may not offend you, but I think history speaks for itself in terms of the cultural make up, influences and composition of his bands and both his critically and commercially deemed trailblazing years. But your statement below wasn't my point; for some reason, you seem to make it your first introductorory point. At a guess, I think that probably says more about you, than me.

1725topp said:

So, when Prince has a majority white band or a mixed band, he is a “trailblazer,” but when he has a mostly black band he is “afraid” and a “trend follower”?

I disagree with your point below. None of the artists you mentioned, whilst phenonemal within their own style and genre, successfully melded genres of music in the way Prince did, with the New Wave influences in Dirty Mind, the Minneapolis Sound he created with Controversy/The Time, the guitar/funk pyrotechnics of Purple Rain, the wholesale psychodelic/classic "movements" that are ATWIAD and Parade, accumulating into the critically acclaimed musical eclectism (and depth) contained within Sign O The Times. None of your mentioned artists (black or otherwise) listed below were anywhere near as diverse. They were phenomenal in their own right, largely within the confines of their own genre of music. In the 80s, Prince not only crossed over to a mainstream audience, he crossed a veritable sea of musical, cultural and racial idioms. He was not relighting diversity, based on some kind of blueprint model of black artists from former years; he was living and breathing it anew. Unlike your perspective, I firmly believe Prince did create a new chapter in musical history by transcending so many diffierent musical idioms within the decade of his trailblazing, whilst also creating his own: the Minneapolis sound.

1725topp said:

2. From 1978 - 1988 Prince wasn’t doing anything that black artists, such as Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, George Clinton, etc., had not already done; he was just doing it well. What made it so “different” is that he was one of the few “black” artists at the time who was willing to fight to reclaim the full heritage of “black” music. So, he wasn’t trailblazing so much as he was relighting the path or reintroducing or reminding the world of the diversity and brilliance of black culture. During the 80s I realized that Prince’s music is great/wonderful, but I never thought that nobody had ever done this before because others had.

Before this discussion expands, let me first open by stating that I absolutely DIG Prince's music, including the 2000s, so my critique of it is less based on thinking "Prince has fallen off" or "the 80s were the glory years" or any other commonly utilised derogotary remark. What I will say though is that, plainly, if you look at the so-called "diversity" within even the songs you list below, they are ALL (each and every single one of them) tinged with a strong RnB pop flavour: “Fury,” “Guitar,” “Colonized Mind”, “Screwdriver”, “Satisfied,” “Chelsea Rodgers,” “Dance 4 Me,” “Ain’t Gone Miss U When U Gone”, “Cinnamon Girl,” “The Word,” “The Lion of Judah,” “The One U Wanna C,” “Boom,” and “No More Candy 4 U”. Even a cursory analysis of the albums from which the aforementioned songs come from, they are tinged with a strong RnB pop flavour: MUSICOLOGY, 3121, PLANET EARTH and LOTUSFLOWER. By contrast, Prince's trailblazing years saw him compose music that carried far more breadth, and depth, in scope across musically distinct idioms.

1725topp said:

3. Of course, tastes vary, but Prince has remained just as diverse from 2000 to 2013 as he was during the 80s. His sounds are just as eclectic. One may not like those sounds as much as the sounds as the 80s, but over the past thirteen years he has written an equal amount of rock, funk, and R&B songs so to say that he "has largely become an RnB pop artist" is just flawed based on the eclectic sounds that he has delivered: “Fury,” “Guitar,” “Colonized Mind” (which is a rip off), and “Screwdriver” on one end of the spectrum and “Satisfied,” “Chelsea Rodgers,” “Dance 4 Me,” and “Ain’t Gone Miss U When U Gone” on the other end of the spectrum. And even with these, Prince has continued to produce other songs that have no definable category, such as “Cinnamon Girl,” “The Word,” “The Lion of Judah,” “The One U Wanna C,” “Boom,” and “No More Candy 4 U”. One may not like these songs, but ain’t nobody else out there producing these types of varying sounds. And none of these songs define Prince as “largely an RnB pop artist”.

I have never suggested Prince wasn't "his own person"?

*

But rather that, from a psychological perspective, I think we see a subtle but significant shift in his once cosmopolitan mindset ("Good Love", "Starfish & Coffee", "Do U Lie", "Play In The Sunshine") to a predominantly sales-driven (and, it just so happens, "black-inflused hip-hop" mindset, because that is what was selling at the time), thus he appeared to become afraid, second guessing his own genre/gender-blending mannerisms, and started trend-folllowing/chasing instead, bringing forth the likes of the Game Boyz and "Tony's Iggnant Mix"/"Brother With A Purpose", "Black MFs in the House", "Goldnigga", "Jughead" etc. A subtle but significant inward/outward shift in Prince's mindset appeared to occurr, and he became more focussed within one genre (perhaps, the genre he had always identified most with from the beginning, that of black music, which is absolutely fine with me; but a change did appear to occur).

*

I do not hold this "against" him; I am merely observing the phenomena, which I think he, too, reflected upon, when he became more mindful, detached and reticent about what "PRINCE" had become, by the early '90s. If you read any of his letters, writings or reflections during the early period of the name change (particularly '93), Prince actually discusses (from a psychological perspective) how he felt he himself had slipped into something of a a cheaper product of himself, a caricature. In other words, he readily acknowledges that he had become a "sales machine", churning out what he thought would sell, with little to no trailblazing of his own from an artistic perspective stoking that fire in his belly. A case in point, when Prince released the THE RAINBOW CHILDREN, he explicitly made a direct and specific comparison between his artistic mindset then, as compared to the commercial mindset he was in with the LOVESYMBOL album. I think the purported $100M Contract he signed with Warner Brother's cemented the demise of his artistic evolution, at that particular stage. Nonetheless, true to form, the more authentic artist eventually came to rebel against the very notions of "the business" he had contractually signed up to, in no uncertain way. Thus, "the Artist" was borne.

*

Unlike you, I am familiar with hip-hop. Also, unlike you, I happen to appreciate Prince's experimentation during the early '90s era (and beyond) into rap and hip-hop inflused elements. I certainly do not see the rap (or music) in Mr Goodnight as "hideous", as you do, but actually find it a quite brilliant exemplar of Prince at the top of his game when bringing in that type of musical influence in.

1725topp said:

4. Since Prince’s foundation (bottom) is funk/soul, he would not incorporate rap/hip hop in the same manner as someone like Beck, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against the Machine, etc. That doesn’t make him “afraid”; that makes him his own person. Secondly, I will admit that it seems that initially Prince didn’t really respect rap so much as he just wanted to prove that he could do it, which is one of the reasons his early rap is so hideous to so many. However, since I’m not a regular connoisseur of rap, Prince’s rapping has never bothered me, expect the rap in “Mr. Goodnight.” That’s just damn hideous/goofy/juvenile…well, you get the picture.

I really think this is a mute point. Prince's actions across many different dimensions unequivocally suggest that, even as a multi-millionaire, he is concerned with money. It would appear he always has been. But, as you know, he likes doing things on his own terms and I, for one, very much respect his trailblazing path to create an independent music business establishment of his own. He may be small, but there's no mistaking him.

1725topp said:

5. If Prince just wanted money and had been this “sell-out” to trends or a whore for money that many people claim, he would have surrendered to and cashed in the “Revolution Reunion” card a long time ago, he would have released several albums with the latest “hot” producers a long time ago, and he would have a much different attitude toward the internet. Instead, he continues to follow that mega-loud voice in his head that causes him to orbit mostly in Prince-ville. Yes, Prince continues to make deals to get large sums of money, but those deals usually are performing at festivals or record release deals where he retains full control and ownership of the content of the album.

nyse said:

BobGeorge909 said:

SpiritOtter said:

I really think this is a mute point. Prince's actions across many different dimensions unequivocally suggest that, even as a multi-millionaire, he is concerned with money. It would appear he always has been. But, as you know, he likes doing things on his own terms and I, for one, very much respect his trailblazing path to create an independent music business establishment of his own. He may be small, but there's no mistaking him.

1725topp said:

*

First, my main point/goal was to refute your notion that Prince has become basically an R&B artist over the past thirteen years.

*

Further, most human beings are “concerned” with money, but your initial point is that Prince is so concerned with money that it has affected his artistic production or productivity. Based on what I was able to show, his quantity (This can’t be refuted) and his quality (which some of us still like) has not been negatively affected by a desire for money. See, in order to be a “sell-out” one must renounce or betray one’s core principles. I know that many people on this site do not like R&B/soul, gospel, and funk music, but hip hop is rooted in those genres. Thus, embracing rap to show that he can do it is not a “sell out” move unless you are also willing to say that Prince producing a full, completely, entirely rock album would also be a “sell out” move since he has shown in the past that he has no desire to produce a “pure” anything album, regardless of whether it is rock, soul, or funk. Thus, what I would view as merely a money grab act or him being overly concerned with money is him doing something he doesn’t want to do just to make money, such as reuniting with the Revolution if he didn’t want to do so or working with the so-called “hot” producers when he doesn’t want to do so. That would have been a money grab and shown him as being overly concerned with money so my fifth point is not mute. However, I’m willing to listen if you can provide specific examples to show that Prince has become so overly concerned with money that it has negatively affected his productivity or made him just a basic R&B artist with the understanding that I have, seemingly, disproved your notion that Prince has become just a basic R&B artist. Accordingly, Prince being a tyrant/dick when it comes to the copyright, ownership, and use of his image and music, especially on the internet, is as much about the artistic control of one’s work as it is about the financial reward, and since he doesn’t seem to have as much faith in YouTube or the internet, in general, to balance the scales of promotion and profit, then his different, possibly odd, approach or engagement of the internet does not show him to be overly concerned with money but moreso, like any person with a skill, service, or product to sale, just determined to gain what he views as fair value for his work. (Now, we can disagree on what is deemed as “fair value” or a proper return on investment but one person’s subjective notions of this does not disprove or minimize another person’s subjective notion of this because when it comes to art or most anything else “fair value” is in the pockets of the people negotiating to buy and sell the product. Hence, I didn’t think that $77 was “fair value” to join a website so, unlike the other fools who still complain about it, I didn’t join it. Yet, I still like much of the music that he has produced after that so that failed website has not, seemingly, affected his artistic productivity.) Thus, even these actions regarding the internet have not affected the quantity or quality of his work. But, again, could you provide examples that show that Prince has become so concerned with money that it has affected his productivity as you earlier suggested?

SpiritOtter said:

Honestly, I don't think you get it, but equally, I don't have the desire to explain it beond the following, either. Prince's instincts were abundantly clear on THE BLACK ALBUM. Fast forward a few years, and financial loss after financial loss, and you have the likes of the male-dominated "black" NPG band as well as the incorporating of more and more hip-hop, new jack swing and mainstream RnB elements to the point that he produced a record called GOLDNIGGA, featuring songs like BLACK MF IN THE HOUSE! C'mon. Prince was afraid.

You mean The Black Album created in 1987 when Prince rapped about rappers not being able to sing? About how the only good rapper is one that is Dead On It? Maybe if Prince would have starred in Krush Groove instead of lending the film Sheila E, you would think he wasn't afraid of hip hop? What was her place in the film if not Prince's acceptance of the movement?

-

What you are talking about is Prince leaning/using/following commercial reasons rather than artistic reasons. For sure Prince took a page out of the MC HAMMER/early 90's rap play book, but it was not the first time he had been blatantly commerical or followed trends in his career.

-

Prince's embracing of early 80's synths/linn drum machines was certainly much more organic and innovative than his take on rap/hip hop, but it was still a sharp change in style that saw him bringing his sound up to date. You think he just happened to drop his pseudo Stevie Wonder late 70's vibe for the stark new wave punk funk 80's sound with no considerations to what people like Gary Numan and Rick James were doing?

-

Also, songs like "Little Red Corvette" and "Purple Rain" were deliberate grabs to crossover and get more of a "white" audience. If you like those songs better than "Gett Off" and "Pussy Control" that's up to you.

He became a wholesale follower of a trend, rather than conservatively incorporating this one sound amongst his natural progression as an artist.

I disagree. As early as '86 you can see Prince incorporating rap into his mix. It's not like Damon, Kirk, and Tony were the first people to rap on stage with Prince, nor were they new to Prince's fold. They were "around" in the 80's. For sure he put them front in center as a response to hip hop's rocketing popularity. You see it as fear, I say it's business sense. Again, not the first time he calculatingly chose his band/featured players.

-

Prince was just as (if not more) calculating in putting together the first iteration of the Revolution as he had been putting together the first version of the NPG.

-

The Revolution band was not formed any more organically than the NPG. Prince sought out people for their "look" their race, and gender/sex to model The Family Stone to have a multiracial boy/girl dream group. Sure, like The NPG, they could play their asses off. Yet, they were also incredibly marketable.

Even a cursory listen to his music since 1990 and you can sense that he has largely become an RnB pop artist, which is quite distinct from his rich musical heritage and trajectory within the 80s where he was interweaving a myriad of broader cultural and sonic influences.

I am just going to say you are flat out wrong on this. Let's forget about more current events that prove you wrong like 3rdeyegirl, and Lotusflow3r, and look at Prince in the 90's.

-

Prince was NOT anymore of an R&B artist in the 90's than he'd been before. You can see/hear the evidence in songs and albums like:

-

"Live 4 Love", "3 Chains O' Gold", "Loose" The Undertaker Album, "Dolphin", "Endorphine Machine", Chaos and Disorder, The Truth, "One of Us", "Damned if I do", "Baby Knows", "So far, So Pleased", etc.

-

You think R Kelly was making songs like those? Nope. Because R Kelly was an actually R&B artist of the 90's...not interweaving a myriad of cultural and sonice influences as Prince still was. Seriously, if you think Prince went all R&B/rap in the 90's and that's it, you were not really paying attention to anything other than marketing. Sure Prince did R&B songs, but he ALWAYS had from day one. Just as he had always done rock swongs since day one.

-

Part of Prince's BIG problem with WB is that, in the early 90's, they had shuffled him into the R&B department for marketing/promotion. He had always railed against categorization and it was part of his big crossover attempt/success in the early 80's. His first two albums were pushed as R&B, but the albums had a bit of everything including hard rock. So, Prince pushed so hard as a crossover artist in the 80's that there was even some backlash in '85 that he had abandoned his "black" R&B roots/fanbase.

-

He no longer uniquovically trailblazed his own artistic path, but started to follow what was selling.

Again, Prince always followed what was selling. What do you think The Time, Vanity 6, and The Family were about? Those groups (Bad and beloved as they are) were often mirror images of what was "hot." You think Prince wasn't copying the MAry Jane Girls? You think he wasn't going after "that Duran Duran money"?

Effectively, he started attempting to become a BUSINESS man from the 1990s onwards, but he has only really come into his own from a successful business model perspective since Musicology. Ultimately, he got what he wanted; to be independent. But it hasn't come without a serious degree of blood, sweat and tears. I give him a lot of respect and still continue to.

I agree with you on this, but would add that Prince made bad/questionable business decisions in the 80's as well. Lovesexy anyone? Under The Cherry Moon?

-

I am sure Prince digs Batman the most, but it was more of a reaction to his 80's money woes that his nods to hip hop ever were.

[Edited 9/14/13 8:10am]

1725topp said:

So, when Prince has a majority white band or a mixed band, he is a “trailblazer,” but when he has a mostly black band he is “afraid” and a “trend follower”?

*

1. The vast majority of American and European pop music is based in the blues with variations of soul and gospel, and Prince’s foundation (bottom) has always been firmly rooted in this, even during the “multicultural 80s”.

*

2. From 1978 - 1988 Prince wasn’t doing anything that black artists, such as Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, George Clinton, etc., had not already done; he was just doing it well. What made it so “different” is that he was one of the few “black” artists at the time who was willing to fight to reclaim the full heritage of “black” music. So, he wasn’t trailblazing so much as he was relighting the path or reintroducing or reminding the world of the diversity and brilliance of black culture. During the 80s I realized that Prince’s music is great/wonderful, but I never thought that nobody had ever done this before because others had.

*

3. Of course, tastes vary, but Prince has remained just as diverse from 2000 to 2013 as he was during the 80s. His sounds are just as eclectic. One may not like those sounds as much as the sounds as the 80s, but over the past thirteen years he has written an equal amount of rock, funk, and R&B songs so to say that he "has largely become an RnB pop artist" is just flawed based on the eclectic sounds that he has delivered: “Fury,” “Guitar,” “Colonized Mind” (which is a rip off), and “Screwdriver” on one end of the spectrum and “Satisfied,” “Chelsea Rodgers,” “Dance 4 Me,” and “Ain’t Gone Miss U When U Gone” on the other end of the spectrum. And even with these, Prince has continued to produce other songs that have no definable category, such as “Cinnamon Girl,” “The Word,” “The Lion of Judah,” “The One U Wanna C,” “Boom,” and “No More Candy 4 U”. One may not like these songs, but ain’t nobody else out there producing these types of varying sounds. And none of these songs define Prince as “largely an RnB pop artist”.

*

4. Since Prince’s foundation (bottom) is funk/soul, he would not incorporate rap/hip hop in the same manner as someone like Beck, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against the Machine, etc. That doesn’t make him “afraid”; that makes him his own person. Secondly, I will admit that it seems that initially Prince didn’t really respect rap so much as he just wanted to prove that he could do it, which is one of the reasons his early rap is so hideous to so many. However, since I’m not a regular connoisseur of rap, Prince’s rapping has never bothered me, expect the rap in “Mr. Goodnight.” That’s just damn hideous/goofy/juvenile…well, you get the picture.

*

5. If Prince just wanted money and had been this “sell-out” to trends or a whore for money that many people claim, he would have surrendered to and cashed in the “Revolution Reunion” card a long time ago, he would have released several albums with the latest “hot” producers a long time ago, and he would have a much different attitude toward the internet. Instead, he continues to follow that mega-loud voice in his head that causes him to orbit mostly in Prince-ville. Yes, Prince continues to make deals to get large sums of money, but those deals usually are performing at festivals or record release deals where he retains full control and ownership of the content of the album.

Yes to all of this. My only thing to add is on this part:

2. From 1978 - 1988 Prince wasn’t doing anything that black artists, such as Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, George Clinton, etc., had not already done; he was just doing it well. What made it so “different” is that he was one of the few “black” artists at the time who was willing to fight to reclaim the full heritage of “black” music. So, he wasn’t trailblazing so much as he was relighting the path or reintroducing or reminding the world of the diversity and brilliance of black culture. During the 80s I realized that Prince’s music is great/wonderful, but I never thought that nobody had ever done this before because others had.

Prince's genius is that he took what had been done before, and made it uniquely his OWN version.

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Meaning Prince would do what Jimi did AND what James did AND what The Beatles did AND what Little Richard did AND what Sly did BUT Prince would do it all on the same album (or stage) largely by himself. Thus, it became new and refreshed. It was reintergated via Minneapolis.

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I liken it to Christopher Nolan's take on Batman. The Dark Knight films were not new in terms of what he was happening with Batman, but it was HOW it was being presented that made it new/refreshing/different from Tim Burton, etc.

[Edited 9/14/13 8:18am]

1725topp said:

First, my main point/goal was to refute your notion that Prince has become basically an R&B artist over the past thirteen years.

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Further, most human beings are “concerned” with money, but your initial point is that Prince is so concerned with money that it has affected his artistic production or productivity. Based on what I was able to show, his quantity (This can’t be refuted) and his quality (which some of us still like) has not been negatively affected by a desire for money. See, in order to be a “sell-out” one must renounce or betray one’s core principles. I know that many people on this site do not like R&B/soul, gospel, and funk music, but hip hop is rooted in those genres. Thus, embracing rap to show that he can do it is not a “sell out” move unless you are also willing to say that Prince producing a full, completely, entirely rock album would also be a “sell out” move since he has shown in the past that he has no desire to produce a “pure” anything album, regardless of whether it is rock, soul, or funk. Thus, what I would view as merely a money grab act or him being overly concerned with money is him doing something he doesn’t want to do just to make money, such as reuniting with the Revolution if he didn’t want to do so or working with the so-called “hot” producers when he doesn’t want to do so. That would have been a money grab and shown him as being overly concerned with money so my fifth point is not mute. However, I’m willing to listen if you can provide specific examples to show that Prince has become so overly concerned with money that it has negatively affected his productivity or made him just a basic R&B artist with the understanding that I have, seemingly, disproved your notion that Prince has become just a basic R&B artist. Accordingly, Prince being a tyrant/dick when it comes to the copyright, ownership, and use of his image and music, especially on the internet, is as much about the artistic control of one’s work as it is about the financial reward, and since he doesn’t seem to have as much faith in YouTube or the internet, in general, to balance the scales of promotion and profit, then his different, possibly odd, approach or engagement of the internet does not show him to be overly concerned with money but moreso, like any person with a skill, service, or product to sale, just determined to gain what he views as fair value for his work. (Now, we can disagree on what is deemed as “fair value” or a proper return on investment but one person’s subjective notions of this does not disprove or minimize another person’s subjective notion of this because when it comes to art or most anything else “fair value” is in the pockets of the people negotiating to buy and sell the product. Hence, I didn’t think that $77 was “fair value” to join a website so, unlike the other fools who still complain about it, I didn’t join it. Yet, I still like much of the music that he has produced after that so that failed website has not, seemingly, affected his artistic productivity.) Thus, even these actions regarding the internet have not affected the quantity or quality of his work. But, again, could you provide examples that show that Prince has become so concerned with money that it has affected his productivity as you earlier suggested?

Again. Hit the bullseye with all this.

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I still maintain that, if Prince ever really ever sold out, it was when he did Batman. And that's the album that made me fall in love with the dude and his music. It's the least commercial sountrack album ever and it's tied to one of the most commerical movies ever. Only Prince.

skywalker said:

Yes to all of this. My only thing to add is on this part:

2. From 1978 - 1988 Prince wasn’t doing anything that black artists, such as Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, George Clinton, etc., had not already done; he was just doing it well. What made it so “different” is that he was one of the few “black” artists at the time who was willing to fight to reclaim the full heritage of “black” music. So, he wasn’t trailblazing so much as he was relighting the path or reintroducing or reminding the world of the diversity and brilliance of black culture. During the 80s I realized that Prince’s music is great/wonderful, but I never thought that nobody had ever done this before because others had.

Prince's genius is that he took what had been done before, and made it uniquely his OWN version.

-

Meaning Prince would do what Jimi did AND what James did AND what The Beatles did AND what Little Richard did AND what Sly did BUT Prince would do it all on the same album (or stage) largely by himself. Thus, it became new and refreshed. It was reintergated via Minneapolis.

-

I liken it to Christopher Nolan's take on Batman. The Dark Knight films were not new in terms of what he was happening with Batman, but it was HOW it was being presented that made it new/refreshing/different from Tim Burton, etc.

[Edited 9/14/13 8:18am]

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I agree 100%, especially with the notion that part of Prince’s genius is taking other sounds and amalgamating them into his own sound. I just wanted SpiritOtter to realize that even with his brilliant amalgamation of sounds one can still hear the core of his base/foundation.

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And what keeps Batman from being a “sell out” for me is that he is not doing anything that he hadn't done in the past. He didn't attempt to make an album that sounded like somebody else. “Electric Chair” is pure Prince and my jam! And “Party Man”?--please...that is funkier than twenty day old collard greens! And “Scandalous” is as smooth and emotive as “Do Me, Baby” and “International Lover” even though it is not as powerful as “Adore”. As you know, sales don’t equate to “sellin’ out”. And the very things that you love about Batman are the things that are the core of his artistry.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

Of course his hackneyed use of hip hop compromised his art. In 88 he produced Dead On It, a diatribe against shit hip hop;fast forward a few years and he's producing Jughead, the very shit he was criticising.

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So, just the mere act of growth, of changing one's mind, or learning to respect or like something that one didn't like or respect previously is an act of "selling out" or "compromising one's art"? I can only image how difficult it is to be your friend with such rigid notions about keepin’ it real, being authentic, or being true to oneself. :^) I don't think that Prince's use of rap is that great, but I also hate house music; yet, I don't think Prince is selling out when he uses house music though I do wish he would stop.

wow this thread went way off course form the subject right at post#2!

In all honesty back around 2001, Flavor Flav didn't like Prince much because he felt he was stuck up.

1725topp said:

ufoclub said:

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

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So, just the mere act of growth, of changing one's mind, or learning to respect or like something that one didn't like or respect previously is an act of "selling out" or "compromising one's art"? I can only image how difficult it is to be your friend with such rigid notions about keepin’ it real, being authentic, or being true to oneself. :^) I don't think that Prince's use of rap is that great, but I also hate house music; yet, I don't think Prince is selling out when he uses house music though I do wish he would stop.

Grow up and stop making spurious claims to know my personality. Stay on topic please.

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The very first sentence of my post is directly on topic, especially as it relates to your myopic notion regarding Prince's engagement of hip hop. Thus, the second sentence merely uses levity to show how narrow or erroneous your statement about Prince's use of hip hop is by exposing that your interpretation of Prince’s “change regarding hip hop” would leave little if any room for somebody to grow or evolve. (I’m sorry if that idea or concept was over your head.) So, you stop using insults and red herrings to avoid facing how flawed your assertion is.

SpiritOtter said:

I really think this is a mute point. Prince's actions across many different dimensions unequivocally suggest that, even as a multi-millionaire, he is concerned with money. It would appear he always has been. But, as you know, he likes doing things on his own terms and I, for one, very much respect his trailblazing path to create an independent music business establishment of his own. He may be small, but there's no mistaking him.

1725topp said:

I really think this is a moot point.