Hi,

-----

During the last years I've been paying more attention to Prince lyrics than I did before (English is not my mother language), and I'm reaching the conclusion that Prince's image as (only) a sex freak, sex obsessed musician, an image we still find on articles about his persona and his music, is really unfair and inaccurate.

-----

When Prince emerged in the music world, he may have had that image and attitude. Sex is very relevant in Dirty Mind, Controversy and 1999. But after those albums, sex is still there, of course, even on his latest albums, but its relevance is much smaller. However, it continued to prompt some scandal, and therefore people who hadn't a strong interest in his music only paid attention to that side of him. You know, someone can talk to us about several subjects, but if sex is among those themes, we may only remember that he talked to us about sex.

-----

If you listen to Purple Rain, you find only one sex song, "Darling Nikki", but the subsequent scandal with this song has lead people and even music critics to develop an image that in my opinion is wrong. And then the guy appears naked on the cover of Lovesexy, and that's what many people will remember of that album, and not its strong spirituality and the socio-political comment of some of its songs. And then the guy talks about "23 positions in a one night stand" and releases a video with two of the sexiest girls you've ever seen, and you'll remember Diamonds And Pearls for that, when "Gett Off" and "Insatiable" are actually the only sex songs on an album full of individualist and social messages.

-----

So that leads me to the conclusion that the image Prince created in the early 80's has survived thanks to casual scandals that have seemed to reaffirm it, and which Prince himself has probably motivated because they were commercially useful. But the real presence of sex after 1999 is much smaller than what many people think.

-----

If you look at the lyrics of Around The World In A Day, Parade, Sign O' The Times, etc., you'll always find sex songs, but they are always far from being the main theme on those albums. The same can be argued regarding all Prince albums after 1983. Sex has a much smaller importance than before, and always coexists mainly with love songs and spiritual songs, but often with individualist and socio-political songs too. Of course, sex appears on some love songs, like "If I Was Your Girlfriend", "Adore", or "Anotherloverholeinyourhead", but that sex shows up on love songs shouldn't be surprising in any musician's songbook.

-----

Just to avoid misunderstandings, I'd like to stress that, of course, I do recognise that sex is a very important theme on Prince's music. What I'm arguing is that it seems inaccurate to me that you constantly find references to Prince-the-sex-freak, which he certainly is, but not to Prince the author of love songs or spiritual songs. Maybe the sex freak image is the one that will lead more people to read articles about him, and therefore his other sides are often set aside.

-----

And to avoid misunderstandings too, I'd like to point out that this thread isn't about which kind of Prince lyrics you prefer. You may say that you love his sex songs and that you don't relate to his spiritual or political ones, fair enough. But what I wanted to discuss is just the relevance of sex in Prince's output, from a purely quantitative point of view, if you want to say it like that.

-----

My only concern is that the media still projects an unfair and inaccurate image of Prince, an image that doesn't do justice to his rich and varied output, lyrics-wise.

[Edited 9/11/13 2:20am]

So Prince is now a pimp, seducer with money & taste?

Superconductor said:

The question is - did the media project a certain image of Prince or did Prince create a certain image? Also, he has used sex to this day, he leverages off that old image, but now more as a pimp, as a seducer with money and taste, see some songs on Planet Earth and 20TEN. And no explicit lyrics anymore to shock, now rather through innuendo, and wooing and seducing women. Latest example: Breakfast can wait. That song is only about sex, in fact he's already slept with her and he "just needs another taste".

That's an interesting way to put it. In my opinion, it was a combination of the two: Prince created it, but the media amplified it because it was the aspect of Prince's persona that could sell more papers. The result: the general public have no or only a slight idea of the other themes on Prince's music.

SuperSoulFighter said:

It was Chris Moon who came up with the idea of writing lyrics that he called "double entendre". Soft and wet. Two perfectly normal words, but when combined they make you think of...you know what. So Prince having a sexy image as a marketing trick was there from the beginning. In the Dirty Mind days, he took it to extremes. He used sex as a vehicle to write about whatever he wanted. I'll write a song about incest! If it makes you blush, so what! Chris Moon wasn't too happy with it. He remembers talking to Prince on the phone and saying, aren't you going a bit too far? Prince replied: It's working. But, as happens to all boys as they grow up, you realise that there's more to life than just running after your dick and that's when Prince wrote some of his best love songs. That's why I found Gett Off to be such a big letdown. It was as if he thought, I need a hit, so let's write about sex because that's what people expect from me. And that's my main problem with Prince's music since then. He is a fabulous musician in desperate need of some new ideas.

True. "Gett Off" came after the big failure of Graffiti Bridge (an album, by the way, with almost no sex on it), and "Gett Off" was a comeback to old dirty Prince, give the people what they want...

Superconductor said:

The question is - did the media project a certain image of Prince or did Prince create a certain image? Also, he has used sex to this day, he leverages off that old image, but now more as a pimp, as a seducer with money and taste, see some songs on Planet Earth and 20TEN. And no explicit lyrics anymore to shock, now rather through innuendo, and wooing and seducing women. Latest example: Breakfast can wait. That song is only about sex, in fact he's already slept with her and he "just needs another taste".

*

Please excuse my ignorance. I haven't been around for a few years.

*

Can you please elaborate on the new image / Prince? The pimp seducer who has money & taste? The one who woos and seduces women through innuendo?

*

Thank you in advance.

Tempest said:

Superconductor said:

The question is - did the media project a certain image of Prince or did Prince create a certain image? Also, he has used sex to this day, he leverages off that old image, but now more as a pimp, as a seducer with money and taste, see some songs on Planet Earth and 20TEN. And no explicit lyrics anymore to shock, now rather through innuendo, and wooing and seducing women. Latest example: Breakfast can wait. That song is only about sex, in fact he's already slept with her and he "just needs another taste".

*

Please excuse my ignorance. I haven't been around for a few years.

*

Can you please elaborate on the new image / Prince? The pimp seducer who has money & taste? The one who woos and seduces women through innuendo?

*

Thank you in advance.

I sort of see the Pimp/Seducer image, especially when P shows up with his cane. And in songs such as Sticky Like Glue, Mr Goodnight, Future Baby Momma etc.

The big audiance know his hits. And most are sexual.

What is wrong with that? Nothing wrong with being a fan of sex, is it?


I think he is wel respected for still making so much music.

It seems he gets more respect because he never went for the gossip magazines and the fact that he currently is doing his own thing.

I think the general idea was

Prince = sex.

And nowadays it's

Prince = music & sex.

People may know he is religeous. But I doubt if they know his fierce adaptation of the JW interpretation of religion.

And that is something people don't relate to.
So, most of his JW songs are ignored or not recognized as such.

OK. Hopefully, I can share a few things if I may. Just my thoughts.

*

First of all, my hope is that Prince is not a pimp and a seducer. After all, are these admirable traits? Maybe to the world and to the dark side but certainly not to God. Prince supposedly loves God and is a believer in the Messiah, correct? And, according to the Bible, we're supposed to be conformed to the image of the Messiah little by little as we grow in God going from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3 and other Scriptures). Therefore, anything that's contrary to God, His nature and the Messiah needs to be repented of and brought to the cross.

*

Taking those things into consideration, was Yeshua (Jesus) a pimp? Or, a seducer of women? The obvious answer to those questions is NO.

*

Therefore, is it contradictory (or not?) for Prince to claim he loves or knows the Messiah and yet cling to the image of (or desire to be) a pimp or a seducer of women? Is being a pimp or a seducer of women someone with "taste" (biblically speaking)?

*
I'm just putting this out there for discussion.

Tempest said:

OK. Hopefully, I can share a few things if I may. Just my thoughts.

*

First of all, my hope is that Prince is not a pimp and a seducer. After all, are these admirable traits? Maybe to the world and to the dark side but certainly not to God. Prince supposedly loves God and is a believer in the Messiah, correct? And, according to the Bible, we're supposed to be conformed to the image of the Messiah little by little as we grow in God going from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3 and other Scriptures). Therefore, anything that's contrary to God, His nature and the Messiah needs to be repented of and brought to the cross.

*

Taking those things into consideration, was Yeshua (Jesus) a pimp? Or, a seducer of women? The obvious answer to those questions is NO.

*

Therefore, is it contradictory (or not?) for Prince to claim he loves or knows the Messiah and yet cling to the image of (or desire to be) a pimp or a seducer of women? Is being a pimp or a seducer of women someone with "taste" (biblically speaking)?

*
I'm just putting this out there for discussion.

Personally, I don't think that a human being has the authority to decide for others, how to interpret the stories that have been written about Jesus.

Who has the authority, to judge the relation Prince has with God?

If you are convinced, that you are that person, who can measure, weigh and condemn Prince to your religeous dogmatic interpretations, I wonder what special powers you have.

Because only a person who puts himself at the same level as God, can tell others that he is just and knows what God wants/needs/judges.

How do you know, that your interpretation, of transcribed documents of religeous references, are more valuable than somebody else's?

What is the standard that is valid to claim authority on Gods will?


I have no doubt that Prince loves God. And I think that is generally known.

If people want to excert power of others, and use the bible as a mean to do so, they are not very religeous. They just want others to admire and pay them. I hope Prince does not let others dictate him what to do, and use religion to crack him.

His work breathes his love, lust and longing for women.

He has not only praised female sexuality, but also female musician ship.

And at the moment I think he has a fantastic all female band, 3rdEG.

He is seduction on legs. And his talent to seduce is part of his music and stage act.

And if people who follow religeous dogma's get challenged by him, I praise him for that.

DJJ,

*

I myself have no authority and I don't claim to. I'm not condemning anyone nor am I exerting power over anyone. I'm merely sharing the truth about what the Bible says and Messiah's character. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where the Messiah was a pimp or a seducer of women. Do you? If you can give me Bible verses to back what you're saying, I'm happy to look them up. It's the Scriptures that have authority because it's God's Word.

*

The question remains, was Jesus a pimp or a seducer of women? If the answer to that is no and Prince claims to love God and follow the Messiah, than there's a serious contradiction there. This is not about dogma or religion. A true follower of the Messiah desires to be like the Messiah. That's what believers are called to do.

*

I think you need to go back and read what I wrote in my last post to see that I'm not "cracking" anyone. That's an unfair assessment of the point I was making AND the tone in which it was stated.

*

You're the one coming at me with a vengeance. Not the other way around.

dJJ said:

The big audiance know his hits. And most are sexual.

What is wrong with that? Nothing wrong with being a fan of sex, is it?


I think he is wel respected for still making so much music.

It seems he gets more respect because he never went for the gossip magazines and the fact that he currently is doing his own thing.

I think the general idea was

Prince = sex.

And nowadays it's

Prince = music & sex.

People may know he is religeous. But I doubt if they know his fierce adaptation of the JW interpretation of religion.

And that is something people don't relate to.
So, most of his JW songs are ignored or not recognized as such.

I don't agree with you, at least not totally. My argument was that sex actually isn't so relevant on Prince's music as many people, even his fans, think. My argument is that sex is certainly important, but not necessarily more important than love or religion. And I mean not only after him becoming a JW, but from 1983 onwards.

-----

Just as an example. You say that most of his hits are sexual. Let's see:

-----

- "Let's Go Crazy", "When Doves Cry", "Purple Rain", "Take Me With U" and "I Would Die 4 U", the Purple Rain singles, aren't sexual. OK, "When Doves Cry" has sexual imaginery, but it's actually a love song, and it shouldn't surprise that sex appears on a love song.

-----

- "Raspberry Beret", "Paisley Park", "Pop Life" and "America", the singles of Around The World...: no sex at all.

-----

- "Kiss", "Mountains" and "Anotherlover...", the Parade singles: only "Kiss", and it's certainly not porn.

-----

And I could go on (actually, I have done it with every album, but I don't think it's a good idea to write it here). No Prince album, except the ones of the 1980-1982 period, has more than 3 or 4 sex songs, and together with them there are love songs, religious songs, and even socio-political ones. We can do it with any album you choose.

-----

And I don't see nothing bad in Prince writing a lot about sex. But I do think that his image as Prince=sex, even Prince=music+sex, is unfair, it doesn't do justice to the lyrical richness of his work.

Tempest said:

DJJ,

*

I myself have no authority and I don't claim to. I'm not condemning anyone nor am I exerting power over anyone. I'm merely sharing the truth about what the Bible says and Messiah's character. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where the Messiah was a pimp or a seducer of women. Do you? If you can give me Bible verses to back what you're saying, I'm happy to look them up. It's the Scriptures that have authority because it's God's Word.

*

The question remains, was Jesus a pimp or a seducer of women? If the answer to that is no and Prince claims to love God and follow the Messiah, than there's a serious contradiction there. This is not about dogma or religion. A true follower of the Messiah desires to be like the Messiah. That's what believers are called to do.

*

I think you need to go back and read what I wrote in my last post to see that I'm not "cracking" anyone. That's an unfair assessment of the point I was making AND the tone in which it was stated.

*

You're the one coming at me with a vengeance. Not the other way around.

I hope you understand that I did not want to insult you. It's just that I don't share your views on how to judge.

I'm sorry I used "you" when I wrote about who are you to judge..etc.

I meant "you" as a general term, representing people who judge other people for not following their personal interpretation of religion.

And I have never discussed Prince his religeous views with him (or any other subject), so I don't know how he thinks about judging other people.

Maybe Prince adopted the JW backstage/frontstage technique and is a seducer at stage and is not in his private life?

So he can still be judged as a good JW, by his fellow members, and be adored on stage? Eventhough I don't think he behaves as a womanizer on stage at all. I think he's very much a gentleman.


And no, I don't have a scripture that proofs the Messiah was a womanizer. And I don't know if Prince seduces women on a regular bases.

Neither did I read about the Messiah earning money from prostituting women, so he was not a pimp. Nor is Prince, as far as I know.

But Messiah never got married, did he? So, according to your reasoning, Prince also should never have married, because Messiah never did?

[Edited 9/17/13 14:11pm]

Javi said:

dJJ said:

The big audiance know his hits. And most are sexual.

What is wrong with that? Nothing wrong with being a fan of sex, is it?


I think he is wel respected for still making so much music.

It seems he gets more respect because he never went for the gossip magazines and the fact that he currently is doing his own thing.

I think the general idea was

Prince = sex.

And nowadays it's

Prince = music & sex.

People may know he is religeous. But I doubt if they know his fierce adaptation of the JW interpretation of religion.

And that is something people don't relate to.
So, most of his JW songs are ignored or not recognized as such.

I don't agree with you, at least not totally. My argument was that sex actually isn't so relevant on Prince's music as many people, even his fans, think. My argument is that sex is certainly important, but not necessarily more important than love or religion. And I mean not only after him becoming a JW, but from 1983 onwards.

-----

Just as an example. You say that most of his hits are sexual. Let's see:

-----

- "Let's Go Crazy", "When Doves Cry", "Purple Rain", "Take Me With U" and "I Would Die 4 U", the Purple Rain singles, aren't sexual. OK, "When Doves Cry" has sexual imaginery, but it's actually a love song, and it shouldn't surprise that sex appears on a love song.

-----

- "Raspberry Beret", "Paisley Park", "Pop Life" and "America", the singles of Around The World...: no sex at all.

-----

- "Kiss", "Mountains" and "Anotherlover...", the Parade singles: only "Kiss", and it's certainly not porn.

-----

And I could go on (actually, I have done it with every album, but I don't think it's a good idea to write it here). No Prince album, except the ones of the 1980-1982 period, has more than 3 or 4 sex songs, and together with them there are love songs, religious songs, and even socio-political ones. We can do it with any album you choose.

-----

And I don't see nothing bad in Prince writing a lot about sex. But I do think that his image as Prince=sex, even Prince=music+sex, is unfair, it doesn't do justice to the lyrical richness of his work.

I thought your question was not about how I interpret Prince his songs, but the general audiance, right?

I think a lot of songs that the general audiance interprets as being about sex, are about his love for God. Music historically has used symbolic language to sing about what can't be sung, right?

I think on a superficial level, the audiance know him from his hits and have seen a few images. They associate him with his sexy image.

But, there is no doubt that he gets credits for his musical talent. And he is apreciated for songs that are not sexual at all.

It's not my personal opinion that Prince = music + sex. It's my impression of what the general non-Prince-fans audiance think what Prince is about.

Yeshua did not seduce people. Seduction is of the darkness, not the light.

*

Yeshua spoke with the authority of God, he spoke the truth, he healed the sick, raised the dead, was a true example of humility and everything good. He was the living embodiment of the character and power of God. Not a seducer. Those who love truth are drawn to him and follow him. Those who do not love truth, are repelled by him and his example. Many despise him. People are drawn to him because of his love, character, humility and oneness with God (being in agreement with God * God's messenger). He spoke the words of God fearlessly and with authority. People are not drawn to him (or become followers of him) through the power of seduction but rather by the power of God's spirit. In other words, God's HOLY spirit and not a seducing spirit.

*

I will quietly bow out of this discussion now.

*

Take care DJJ.

Tempest said:

Yeshua did not seduce people. Seduction is of the darkness, not the light.

Yes. I edited that even before I read your response. Seducing can be interpreted in a very disrespectful way, however I did not mean it like that.

*

Yeshua spoke with the authority of God, he spoke the truth, he healed the sick, raised the dead, was a true example of humility and everything good. He was the living embodiment of the character and power of God. Not a seducer. Those who love truth are drawn to him and follow him. Those who do not love truth, are repelled by him and his example. Many despise him. People are drawn to him because of his love, character, humility and oneness with God (being in agreement with God * God's messenger). He spoke the words of God fearlessly and with authority. People are not drawn to him (or become followers of him) through the power of seduction but rather by the power of God's spirit. In other words, God's HOLY spirit and not a seducing spirit.

All that you describe is exactly what draws me toward him. And has been my adagium in living my life. It's not Yeshua or God that I would question.

*

I will quietly bow out of this discussion now.

I will follow you on your way out. That's probably the best way.

*

Take care DJJ.

DJJ,

*

Now that you edited, I'd like to make one more comment regarding something you stated.

*

Yeshua did not get married because it was not his calling to do so. Marriage is God ordained. There's nothing wrong with marriage. When I say that we should be like the Messiah, I mean in character and his Scriptural beliefs. We should aspire to be like him because he is the perfect representative of everything God desires us to be. There's nothing in the Bible that condemns marriage. Far from it.

*

Therefore, there's nothing sinful about marriage. Some feel called to marry and others do not. However, aspiring to be a pimp, a seducer & a womanizer is not a godly aspiration. Hopefully, you can see the difference.

dJJ said:

Javi said:

I don't agree with you, at least not totally. My argument was that sex actually isn't so relevant on Prince's music as many people, even his fans, think. My argument is that sex is certainly important, but not necessarily more important than love or religion. And I mean not only after him becoming a JW, but from 1983 onwards.

-----

Just as an example. You say that most of his hits are sexual. Let's see:

-----

- "Let's Go Crazy", "When Doves Cry", "Purple Rain", "Take Me With U" and "I Would Die 4 U", the Purple Rain singles, aren't sexual. OK, "When Doves Cry" has sexual imaginery, but it's actually a love song, and it shouldn't surprise that sex appears on a love song.

-----

- "Raspberry Beret", "Paisley Park", "Pop Life" and "America", the singles of Around The World...: no sex at all.

-----

- "Kiss", "Mountains" and "Anotherlover...", the Parade singles: only "Kiss", and it's certainly not porn.

-----

And I could go on (actually, I have done it with every album, but I don't think it's a good idea to write it here). No Prince album, except the ones of the 1980-1982 period, has more than 3 or 4 sex songs, and together with them there are love songs, religious songs, and even socio-political ones. We can do it with any album you choose.

-----

And I don't see nothing bad in Prince writing a lot about sex. But I do think that his image as Prince=sex, even Prince=music+sex, is unfair, it doesn't do justice to the lyrical richness of his work.

I thought your question was not about how I interpret Prince his songs, but the general audiance, right?

I think a lot of songs that the general audiance interprets as being about sex, are about his love for God. Music historically has used symbolic language to sing about what can't be sung, right?

I think on a superficial level, the audiance know him from his hits and have seen a few images. They associate him with his sexy image.

But, there is no doubt that he gets credits for his musical talent. And he is apreciated for songs that are not sexual at all.

It's not my personal opinion that Prince = music + sex. It's my impression of what the general non-Prince-fans audiance think what Prince is about.

Right, we agree then. That's what I dislike, that his public image reflects only a part of his work, and other parts are totally unknown for the general audience. Not that it matters me a lot, but I do think he deserves more recognition as a lyricist than he usually does.