TrevorAyer said:

sign is highly uncredited and somewhat edited from its original intent due to prince not wanting his collaborators on the record .. i love the record but it lacks a little as a result .. would have loved to hear the soundscape filled out a little more as it was originally intended .. still it was rev ideas with prince hoarding the recording process for himself

It is? Interesting! What is your source? I like to explore this futher.

paulludvig said:

TrevorAyer said:

sign is highly uncredited and somewhat edited from its original intent due to prince not wanting his collaborators on the record .. i love the record but it lacks a little as a result .. would have loved to hear the soundscape filled out a little more as it was originally intended .. still it was rev ideas with prince hoarding the recording process for himself

It is? Interesting! What is your source? I like to explore this futher.

he has no source. He simply makes up a lie and keeps repeating it hoping people will actually believe it. His job is simply to come here and discredit Prince. The whole belief that practically everything Prince did in the 80's being a collaboration is nothing short of rubbish and something completely unproven.He has no evidence that Prince's 1980's work were mostly Revolution ideas. Nonetheless, it won't stop a jealous failed "musician" like himself from continously trying to discredit Prince. Its a sad life when someone is so obsessed with an artist, that they repeatedly try to discredit that artist.

1725topp said:

Even though I am not trying to play referee or anything and even though I disagree with TrevorAyer, I'd like to give him credit for being objective rather than ranting. Again, while I do disagree with his premise, he is correct in citing that many people have claimed that Prince ripped them off. And, while I do love most of what Prince has created since 2000, one of my favorite Prince songs of the past thirteen years is "Colonized Mind," which is a rip off, but I love it still. By the way, "Laydown" is da sh**, and you can't be that far gone to see that? :^) Still, I like that TrevorAyer is simply presenting his ideas rather than insulting Prince and those of us who like Prince’s post 2000 work.

*

Of course, to the topic, I think that Militant, Skywalker, and others have said what I want to say, especially the notion of how "good" Prince is or how good "we" think he is is really relative. But, I've been thinking for years that Prince's greatest strength might be his greatest weakness, which is his diversity. Very few can play as many different styles as Prince. And, during the Eighties, when America and much of the world was embracing fake multiculturalism, Prince's ability to amalgamate many different styles allowed him to attract many different cultures and races of fans. But, after being a member of Housequake.com and Prince.org for a number of years, I realize that my notion of Prince fans being this "tribe" of open-minded rebels is a fantasy, and that a good number of Prince fans are attracted to Prince for one genre of music and seem to wish that he would stop playing the other forms. It seems that not as many fans as I had imagined actually like the full musical spectrum that Prince has always engaged. And so, for Prince, this becomes a problem not just with his hardcore fans but with the casual fans who all want to limit or place Prince in their box. So, in many cases, people are reacting negatively to the genre that Prince is producing as they are reacting negatively to the quality of the work. "Why he got all them damn horns?" "What's up with them background singers?" "When he gonna write some more songs like 'Adore'?" “When he gonna stop playin’ dat rock and get back to the funk and soul?”

*

So, it seems that Prince--as an artist--should have been a niche artist with a niche following for most of his career because his diversity demands so much of people who may not want to be exposed to so many different styles. Yet, a funny thing (Purple Rain) happened on the way to him being a lifelong niche artist, causing him to spend much of his career rebelling against those who desire to make him their piece of clay. Of course, none of what I’ve said has answered the OP’s question, but for my money he's still the baddest mutha on the planet. I'd be bored to death being a fan of less talented and less diverse artists.

Well said. After becoming a member of various Prince fan forums, I came to the same conclusion.

hhhhdmt said:

1725topp said:

Even though I am not trying to play referee or anything and even though I disagree with TrevorAyer, I'd like to give him credit for being objective rather than ranting. Again, while I do disagree with his premise, he is correct in citing that many people have claimed that Prince ripped them off. And, while I do love most of what Prince has created since 2000, one of my favorite Prince songs of the past thirteen years is "Colonized Mind," which is a rip off, but I love it still. By the way, "Laydown" is da sh**, and you can't be that far gone to see that? :^) Still, I like that TrevorAyer is simply presenting his ideas rather than insulting Prince and those of us who like Prince’s post 2000 work.

*

Of course, to the topic, I think that Militant, Skywalker, and others have said what I want to say, especially the notion of how "good" Prince is or how good "we" think he is is really relative. But, I've been thinking for years that Prince's greatest strength might be his greatest weakness, which is his diversity. Very few can play as many different styles as Prince. And, during the Eighties, when America and much of the world was embracing fake multiculturalism, Prince's ability to amalgamate many different styles allowed him to attract many different cultures and races of fans. But, after being a member of Housequake.com and Prince.org for a number of years, I realize that my notion of Prince fans being this "tribe" of open-minded rebels is a fantasy, and that a good number of Prince fans are attracted to Prince for one genre of music and seem to wish that he would stop playing the other forms. It seems that not as many fans as I had imagined actually like the full musical spectrum that Prince has always engaged. And so, for Prince, this becomes a problem not just with his hardcore fans but with the casual fans who all want to limit or place Prince in their box. So, in many cases, people are reacting negatively to the genre that Prince is producing as they are reacting negatively to the quality of the work. "Why he got all them damn horns?" "What's up with them background singers?" "When he gonna write some more songs like 'Adore'?" “When he gonna stop playin’ dat rock and get back to the funk and soul?”

*

So, it seems that Prince--as an artist--should have been a niche artist with a niche following for most of his career because his diversity demands so much of people who may not want to be exposed to so many different styles. Yet, a funny thing (Purple Rain) happened on the way to him being a lifelong niche artist, causing him to spend much of his career rebelling against those who desire to make him their piece of clay. Of course, none of what I’ve said has answered the OP’s question, but for my money he's still the baddest mutha on the planet. I'd be bored to death being a fan of less talented and less diverse artists.

how is he being objective by claiming that Prince would be an unknown without the revolution? How is it objective to claim that most of his best work was a result of so called "jamming sessions"? He constantly lies, and when he is proven wrong, he runs away or refuses to acknowlegde that he was wrong.

He insults people who happen to like some of Prince's post 2000 work by claiming that people who like his recent work have bad taste. If you have read some of the other threads, he has repeatedly stated this. Nothing objective about it whatsoever.

*

First, I have read many of TrevorAyer's posts because I rarely agree with him and have engaged him in discourse many times. And while he has insulted people in the past, most of his initial posts on this thread did not insult anyone. And while I do disagree with him on this issues, it has been confirmed by Dave Hill's Prince: A Pop Life, by Pepe Willie on several occasions, and others that Prince has gotten many ideas from jamming. That's not a falsehood nor do I think that Prince getting ideas from jamming damages his legacy. Also, Pepe Willie, the man who taught Prince how to write songs, all but said that Andre Cymone wrote "Do Me, Baby". So, we know that there have been a few gray areas with writing credit with Prince. Of course, I think that if we searched the writing background of any artist that has been around as long as Prince we will find "gray areas" in writing credit with them also. So, while, again, I do disagree with most of what TrevorAyer is asserting, I was giving him credit for beginning this discourse in a more civil and objective manner. If I can criticize someone when they are negative, I can also compliment that same person when they are positive, even if I disagree with that person's premise.

1725topp said:

hhhhdmt said:

how is he being objective by claiming that Prince would be an unknown without the revolution? How is it objective to claim that most of his best work was a result of so called "jamming sessions"? He constantly lies, and when he is proven wrong, he runs away or refuses to acknowlegde that he was wrong.

He insults people who happen to like some of Prince's post 2000 work by claiming that people who like his recent work have bad taste. If you have read some of the other threads, he has repeatedly stated this. Nothing objective about it whatsoever.

*

First, I have read many of TrevorAyer's posts because I rarely agree with him and have engaged him in discourse many times. And while he has insulted people in the past, most of his initial posts on this thread did not insult anyone. And while I do disagree with him on this issues, it has been confirmed by Dave Hill's Prince: A Pop Life, by Pepe Willie on several occasions, and others that Prince has gotten many ideas from jamming. That's not a falsehood nor do I think that Prince getting ideas from jamming damages his legacy. Also, Pepe Willie, the man who taught Prince how to write songs, all but said that Andre Cymone wrote "Do Me, Baby". So, we know that there have been a few gray areas with writing credit with Prince. Of course, I think that if we searched the writing background of any artist that has been around as long as Prince we will find "gray areas" in writing credit with them also. So, while, again, I do disagree with most of what TrevorAyer is asserting, I was giving him credit for beginning this discourse in a more civil and objective manner. If I can criticize someone when they are negative, I can also compliment that same person when they are positive, even if I disagree with that person's premise.

Fair enough. But we were specifically talking about sign o the times and he claims that the album is "highly uncredited" which is nonsense. There has not been any dispute over that record. He is simply making things up. To claim that most of his 80's work was uncredited collaboration is promoting a falsehood, something for which no evidence exists. He is simply making things up.

skywalker said:

So true. It actually has harmed Prince's commercial appeal. Think about it: Purple Rain is his commercial zenith. It's because he formed himself in the widest reaching "rock and roll" mold as possible. It's like he took the "Little Red Corvette" formula and put it towards an entire album.

Purple Rain is EXACTLY when the whole "old Prince vs. new Prince" myth began. Believe it or not, MANY purple faithful that had been part of that intial niche underground purple audience felt alienated after Purple Rain.

[Edited 5/10/13 11:12am]

*

Skywalker, you have, of course, hit the nail on its “proverbial” head. Since Purple Rain there have been two camps of Old Prince vs. New Prince, and what's funny, if not hypocritical, is that most of the so-called Old Prince people, especially on this site, weren't the original Old Prince people because the pre-1999 Prince was barely known outside the black community. And it is that community which was the first Old Prince people, asserting, as you have stated, that Purple Rain was too crossover for them. I wish I still had all those old Right On and Black Beat magazines where so many were lamenting that Prince had "sold out" with Purple Rain, Around the World in a Day, and Parade. So, it is laughable to me when so many of the “new” Old Prince people assert that Prince is pandering or dumbing down his work when he is engaging R&B and Funk rhythms when that's always been a part of his entire "make up," excuse the pun.

*

On another note that I hope is related, I often wonder what would have happened if ten years ago Prince would have sent songs to various radio stations with no name on it. As we know, since payola still exists and radio stations are in bed with record companies, they more than likely would not have played them, but my point is that after 1990 Prince’s name became just as big of a liability as an asset because, again, so many had etched in stone a one-dimensional notion/definition of who/what Prince is that they would dislike anything he does just because it’s from him. Yes, simultaneously, we have witness so many artists work their way to the top by imitating Prince. So, there is no way that Prince can’t be as good as most of us think that he is because so many others have copied him to make their own name.

2elijah said:

You know I always respect your opinion, and I agree with you on the bolded part of your post. I also agree, that a large, part of Prince's fan base, at times, seem to want him to stay in the Revolution era, as well as in a 'rock' genre, moreso than the funk/r&b/soul/ballads/jazz/latin-flavor music, etc., side of Prince. It's almost like some prefer he banishes the latter from his performances, which is surprising, especially because as you have noted, his music has always been diverse, not allowing himself to be pigeon-holed into one genre of music.

I think if he stayed with the Revolution, he could have possiby pigeon-holed himself, somewhat, music and image-wise. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the days of the Revolution/Purple Rain era like many fans, but I also enjoy(ed) the music of the Sign of the Times and LoveSexy, Musicology, Lotusflower, present eras, and the many band member changes throughout the years, giving us diverse flavors of music. I believe that's what makes him an interesting and surviving musician/artist from his early days to present. So do I think he is as good as 'we' (general fan base) might think? Can't speak for an entire fan base, but on an individual basis, I would say it primarily depends on a fan's tastes in music. He gives a little bit of everything to everyone. So fans get the opportunity to choose which forms of his music they gravitate to best.

On another note, with his focus lately on performing more, rock-flavored music, I wonder with this current band, he;s been touring with, if he/they will be able to attract as large a diverse group of fans in the U.S. to attend his shows, in comparison to when he was performing with the most, recent NPG band members, performing more, diverse forms of music, i.e. r&b/blues/jazz/latin-flavored tunes/ballads/rock/country-pop/pop (including from the Musicology era to present).

I haven't seen a full picture of the demographics of the audience at these West Coast concerts, to have a fair judgement of that or their talent, but I guess that remains to be seen, if he does use this current band to perform on the Billboard Awards. The result of their performance, will be a deterrming factor, in how many fans they could attract to see him perform in future days, as well as, how they will be viewed/judged by various, music critics and media outlets and fans of Prince

[Edited 5/10/13 11:53am]

*

2elijah, I agree with all of your points, and also want to see the demographics of the audiences coming to see the latest tour and hear their reactions, especially since he isn't featuring the "hits." I, of course, love what I have heard from the latest tour and think that Prince is just doing what makes him feel good and not worrying about the naysayers. In many ways, this latest tour is just another example and microcosm of his entire career, which is doing what he wants, when he wants, how he wants, and at the highest level, regardless of the backlash. And, for that, I continue to dig him. Take care.

hhhhdmt said:

1725topp said:

*

First, I have read many of TrevorAyer's posts because I rarely agree with him and have engaged him in discourse many times. And while he has insulted people in the past, most of his initial posts on this thread did not insult anyone. And while I do disagree with him on this issues, it has been confirmed by Dave Hill's Prince: A Pop Life, by Pepe Willie on several occasions, and others that Prince has gotten many ideas from jamming. That's not a falsehood nor do I think that Prince getting ideas from jamming damages his legacy. Also, Pepe Willie, the man who taught Prince how to write songs, all but said that Andre Cymone wrote "Do Me, Baby". So, we know that there have been a few gray areas with writing credit with Prince. Of course, I think that if we searched the writing background of any artist that has been around as long as Prince we will find "gray areas" in writing credit with them also. So, while, again, I do disagree with most of what TrevorAyer is asserting, I was giving him credit for beginning this discourse in a more civil and objective manner. If I can criticize someone when they are negative, I can also compliment that same person when they are positive, even if I disagree with that person's premise.

Fair enough. But we were specifically talking about sign o the times and he claims that the album is "highly uncredited" which is nonsense. There has not been any dispute over that record. He is simply making things up. To claim that most of his 80's work was uncredited collaboration is promoting a falsehood, something for which no evidence exists. He is simply making things up.

*

I don't disagree with you, but I just think that it is important to acknowledge the true or probable things that TrevorAyer has said, even if you note them as few, while also challenging and refuting the false things that he has asserted. It not only creates more civil discourse, it allows us all to have more enlightened discussions on topics with which we disagree. And, I'll only add that while I agree with you on this discussion, Prince, himself, has left the door open for the types of criticisms that TrevorAyer is asserting because there have been documented accounts of "gray issues" with credit. Yes, in most cases I think that TrevorAyer is reaching, but the problem with robbing the liquor store once is that one is always a suspect of the next robbery. And that last statement may just be me feeling burned about one of my favorite songs, "Colonized Mind," being an "uncredited" rip off, especially after spending years getting over the fact that one of my all-time favorite Prince songs, "Part Up," was written by someone else. So, again, I think Prince is a genius, that he would still have accomplished what he has without the Revolution, and that he is mostly responsible for his success, but he has also done some things that leave the door open for those who want to discredit his talent and/or legacy. But, he is still the baddest mutha to me.

SpiritOtter said:

Useful responses thus far, but I do not believe anyone has been able to adequately deconstruct the 30% / 70% critique posed in the original post? Spirit

I am not sure if this is the case. Prince has released 30 + albums, so even if 30 percent of them are acclaimed, this means there about 9-10 acclaimed albums. That is more than most artists, isn't it? I definately think he has had issues with releasing excessive amounts of music at times. Emancipation, for example, would be a terrefic record if shortened to the best 10 songs on the record. Graffiti Bridge is another example of excess amounts of music. As a result, some of the albums with excess amounts of music have not been met with highly favourable reviews but even these critics have noted that these albums contained several good to great songs.

Besides he does have alot of albums that have been met with generally or highly favourable reviews. Besides the 9 favourable albums of the 80's (including the black album), Love Symbol, Prince (1979), The Gold Experience, TRC, Musicology and 3121 have all been received positively by critics, so its certainly alot more than just 30 percent.

He's not as good as I used to think he was. He was the first artist I really 'got into' so I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread, (I hadn't even listened to album tracks from other people), so I have a much broader view on things now.

studio: Prince is not that great anymore - nothing like he used to be. Seems like 2 different artists, the young Prince and the older Prince today.

.

in concerts: Prince is still great. He is doing too many cover songs though

thanks 1275stopp for your reasonable communicado .. to be fair and factual about myself ... i don't usually sling insults until hhhmbthtpt calls me stupid, a liar, a troll, and insults my own music (which he clearly knows it awesome and is super jealous of) .. that's when I am forced to insult him back by pointing out how horrible his taste in music is ... hhhhhmmmptht hops on any thread I post on only to insult me ... he pretty much never participates in a reasonable discussion about why he disagrees .. i am pretty sure he is either a teenager or a really imature old creepy dude

as for sott ... i have read that wendy and lisa felt sad listening to sign after hearing their part of the songs they worked on either deleted or burried in the mix .. sign started as dream factory, a project that was a revolution oriented affair, only to have prince remove all the songs they were prominently featured on .. i have also read that they played on a lot of sign but were not credited for everything they did .. to say the rev did not heavily influence if not co write portions of sign would be very ignorant of a preexisting pattern and comments made about that time period.

while it is impossible to know how everything really went down .. certain conclusions can be reasonably drawn based upon the overall accumulation of information .. knowing that prince crediting himself and only himself when this is not the case (common in the music industry) lends to the conclusion that his best period was far more collaborative than some may choose to allow themselves to believe .. funny how lrc guitar solo is dez but prince gets credit in a top guitar solos of all time list in rolling stone .. shit like that been going down for a long time ... what is more telling is the huge drop off in quality when prince discarded most of his 'friends' from that period. (which very easily and logically explains the 30/70 dynamic addressed by the op)

furthermore .. the revolution is the only band that sounds like a prince record .. no sampler set needed .. or??? is it that prince records sound like the revolution cuz prince was copying the group effort results while recording by himself? I am starting to believe the latter. Prince is certainly technically capable of reproducing anything anybody else comes up with during jams by himself, but he has also displayed a lack of coming up with these genius like dynamics sans revolution or other collaborators

Prince is the centerpoint for some of the best music out there. There is no reason not to discuss this mans music critically and honestly. It is fascinating and some of us enjoy deconstructing the genius of how all this came together, good and bad, but at very least honestly.

the only thing that is fact is that if it says it was written only by prince it is a lie, everything else is highly speculative but reasonable conclusions can be drawn at this point considering 70 percent .. or 100 percent of his post rev era .. is a huge drop in music quality .. some of that credit must go to the collaborations that occurred when surround by the genius level of musicians he was working with at the time .. history has shown the rev era to contain prince most highly qualified collaborators .. there is nothing ungenius about lisa, andre, eric leeds, clare fisher, and even the props had an element of starpower that current collaborators like shelby j or renato cannot match or even come close to .. vanity had more star power than shelby or even rosie gains .. sorry but true ... morris more than sonny t .. fink moreso than renato .. etc ... renato never came up with anything good .. ever .. fink pooped gold everytime he touched that keyboard .. lisa as well

prince is very good .. he is as good as i think he is but not as good as hhhhhmphthhtptp thinks he is .. prince is genius with the right collaborators and pretty damn awful without them around .. even john lennon took a few cues from ringo every once in a while .. lets not pretend prince came up with everything all by himself ... he didn't

[Edited 5/11/13 5:26am]

[Edited 5/11/13 5:45am]

TrevorAyer said:

thanks 1275stopp for your reasonable communicado .. to be fair and factual about myself ... i don't usually sling insults until hhhmbthtpt calls me stupid, a liar, a troll, and insults my own music (which he clearly knows it awesome and is super jealous of) .. that's when I am forced to insult him back by pointing out how horrible his taste in music is ... hhhhhmmmptht hops on any thread I post on only to insult me ... he pretty much never participates in a reasonable discussion about why he disagrees .. i am pretty sure he is either a teenager or a really imature old creepy dude

as for sott ... i have read that wendy and lisa felt sad listening to sign after hearing their part of the songs they worked on either deleted or burried in the mix .. sign started as dream factory, a project that was a revolution oriented affair, only to have prince remove all the songs they were prominently featured on .. i have also read that they played on a lot of sign but were not credited for everything they did .. to say the rev did not heavily influence if not co write portions of sign would be very ignorant of a preexisting pattern and comments made about that time period.

while it is impossible to know how everything really went down .. certain conclusions can be reasonably drawn based upon the overall accumulation of information .. knowing that prince crediting himself and only himself when this is not the case (common in the music industry) lends to the conclusion that his best period was far more collaborative than some may choose to allow themselves to believe .. funny how lrc guitar solo is dez but prince gets credit in a top guitar solos of all time list in rolling stone .. shit like that been going down for a long time ... what is more telling is the huge drop off in quality when prince discarded most of his 'friends' from that period. (which very easily and logically explains the 30/70 dynamic addressed by the op)

furthermore .. the revolution is the only band that sounds like a prince record .. no sampler set needed .. or??? is it that prince records sound like the revolution cuz prince was copying the group effort results while recording by himself? I am starting to believe the latter. Prince is certainly technically capable of reproducing anything anybody else comes up with during jams by himself, but he has also displayed a lack of coming up with these genius like dynamics sans revolution or other collaborators

Prince is the centerpoint for some of the best music out there. There is no reason not to discuss this mans music critically and honestly. It is fascinating and some of us enjoy deconstructing the genius of how all this came together, good and bad, but at very least honestly.

the only thing that is fact is that if it says it was written only by prince it is a lie, everything else is highly speculative but reasonable conclusions can be drawn at this point considering 70 percent .. or 100 percent of his post rev era .. is a huge drop in music quality .. some of that credit must go to the collaborations that occurred when surround by the genius level of musicians he was working with at the time .. history has shown the rev era to contain prince most highly qualified collaborators .. there is nothing ungenius about lisa, andre, eric leeds, clare fisher, and even the props had an element of starpower that current collaborators like shelby j or renato cannot match or even come close to .. vanity had more star power than shelby or even rosie gains .. sorry but true ... morris more than sonny t .. fink moreso than renato .. etc ... renato never came up with anything good .. ever .. fink pooped gold everytime he touched that keyboard .. lisa as well

prince is very good .. he is as good as i think he is but not as good as hhhhhmphthhtptp thinks he is .. prince is genius with the right collaborators and pretty damn awful without them around .. even john lennon took a few cues from ringo every once in a while .. lets not pretend prince came up with everything all by himself ... he didn't

[Edited 5/11/13 5:26am]

you claim to have read alot of things but you cannot provide any sources for them. PLEASE PROVIDE THE SOURCES. TO SAY THAT THE ALBUM WAS "HIGHLY UNCREDITED" AND THAT PRINCE WAS "HOGGING" THE RECORDING PROCESS IS IGNORTANT.

If prince is awful without his so called "collaborators", then i guess When Doves Cry, The Beautiful Ones, and Purple Rain are all awful songs aren't they? (and by the way, Wendy and Lisa admitted they did not write Purple Rain)

There is nothing genius about Wendy or Lisa. When they can come up with something as good as WDC, then you can try to put them on the same level as Prince.

And no one has suggested that every single song in Prince's discography was written by him alone. Clearly there were several songs that were co written such as Computer Blue, Mountains, SISIA, 17 days etc.

However Prince has written tons and tons of great music on his own. To claim a man who wrote masterpieces such as When Doves Cry and the Beautiful ones on his own wouldn't be famous without the revolution is utterly laughable and highly ignorant.

You were the one who falsely claimed Sign o the times was "highly uncredited" and you are the one who fails to prove it. There has never been any dispute on the songwriting credits on that album. Folks who co wrote something were given credit there.

Lets not pretend that every song Prince wrote in the 80's was a so called "collaboration". Prince clearly wrote dozens of fantastic songs on his own.

You are simply lying over here. Your logic is "i don't believe he wrote those 13 songs on sign" and you fail to offer any proof of your claims other than what you supposedly read. Grow up and stop lying unless you can back up your claims with actual evidence.

paulludvig said:

TrevorAyer said:

as for sott ... i have read that wendy and lisa felt sad listening to sign after hearing their part of the songs they worked on either deleted or burried in the mix .. sign started as dream factory, a project that was a revolution oriented affair, only to have prince remove all the songs they were prominently featured on .. i have also read that they played on a lot of sign but were not credited for everything they did .. to say the rev did not heavily influence if not co write portions of sign would be very ignorant of a preexisting pattern and comments made about that time period.

furthermore .. the revolution is the only band that sounds like a prince record .. no sampler set needed .. or??? is it that prince records sound like the revolution cuz prince was copying the group effort results while recording by himself? I am starting to believe the latter. Prince is certainly technically capable of reproducing anything anybody else comes up with during jams by himself, but he has also displayed a lack of coming up with these genius like dynamics sans revolution or other collaborators

the only thing that is fact is that if it says it was written only by prince it is a lie, everything else is highly speculative but reasonable conclusions can be drawn at this point considering 70 percent .. or 100 percent of his post rev era .. is a huge drop in music quality .. some of that credit must go to the collaborations that occurred when surround by the genius level of musicians he was working with at the time .. history has shown the rev era to contain prince most highly qualified collaborators .. there is nothing ungenius about lisa, andre, eric leeds, clare fisher, and even the props had an element of starpower that current collaborators like shelby j or renato cannot match or even come close to .. vanity had more star power than shelby or even rosie gains .. sorry but true ... morris more than sonny t .. fink moreso than renato .. etc ... renato never came up with anything good .. ever .. fink pooped gold everytime he touched that keyboard .. lisa as well

prince is very good .. he is as good as i think he is but not as good as hhhhhmphthhtptp thinks he is .. prince is genius with the right collaborators and pretty damn awful without them around .. even john lennon took a few cues from ringo every once in a while .. lets not pretend prince came up with everything all by himself ... he didn't

[Edited 5/11/13 5:26am]

So basically you are just speculating? And even contradicting yourself (ie "only to have prince remove all the songs they were prominently featured on")?

Do you really think that lisa, andre, eric leeds, dr fink and clare fisher are more talented overall than Prince?

There's a long way from pretending that Prince did abolutely everything by himself (does anyone actually think that?) and stating that most of his best efforts were the contribution of bandmates (which you did).

hmmmphttht .. i didn't say when doves cry sucked .. i said he wrote his best music when surrounded by great collaborators to draw (take) ideas from and work with .. when he discarded those co workers his own music suffered as well ... previous examples mentioned included john and paul and their competative streak trying to out do each other .. andre and prince had a similar exchange which improved the music undoubtedly .. prince used andres ideas and tried to out do him with his own ideas .. it improved the output weather it came from prince alone or the group .. and yes prince took some ideas and called them his own .. that is fact .. if you read what i actually write you might not sound half as crazed when you type .. you are arguing with yourself again and trying to put words or ideas in my mouth that i did not say .. i never said prince solo work during rev era sucked .. or that he did nothing on his own .. these are your statements not mine

[Edited 5/11/13 5:49am]

It doesn't matter what you "believe" trevor. You "believe" that Prince cannot keep perfect times on the drums without a click track. Guess what? Your belief is false. You believe that Sign is a "highly uncredited" album. Guess again? Your belief is false. You believe that Prince wrote most of the music from that era because of "jamming sessions" and that most of of his work is uncredited. Guess what? Not only is your "belief" rubbish here, you have zero evidence for your claims.

And Prince cannot come up with genius like dynamics without the so called collaborators? What the heck is The Beautiful Ones then, a song which had nothing to do with the revolution? When Doves Cry is arguably the most unique and creative song of his entire career,and again it has nothing to do with the revolution. Anna Stesia and And God Created Woman, again, are highly interesting genius songs that Prince came up with. If i was your girlfriend, again, is highly innovative and it was written by Prince and no one else.

A better question would be why has Prince written so many good songs for other artists? Stuff like The Dance electric, Nothing compares 2 u, All Day All night, Manic Monday, The Glamorous Life, Love thy will be done, etc? Why haven't the revolution geniuses done so?

[Edited 5/11/13 6:11am]

TrevorAyer said:

hmmmphttht .. i didn't say when doves cry sucked .. i said he wrote his best music when surrounded by great collaborators to draw (take) ideas from and work with .. when he discarded those co workers his own music suffered as well ... previous examples mentioned included john and paul and their competative streak trying to out do each other .. andre and prince had a similar exchange which improved the music undoubtedly .. prince used andres ideas and tried to out do him with his own ideas .. it improved the output weather it came from prince alone or the group .. and yes prince took some ideas and called them his own .. that is fact .. if you read what i actually write you might not sound half as crazed when you type .. you are arguing with yourself again and trying to put words or ideas in my mouth that i did not say .. i never said prince solo work during rev era sucked .. or that he did nothing on his own .. these are your statements not mine

[Edited 5/11/13 5:49am]

You said that Prince would be an unknown without the revolution. You said that sign is a highly uncredited album. You said that he took the "revolution ideas" on sign and was "hogging" the recording process. Please prove these claims, especially the one about Sign.

[Edited 5/11/13 6:14am]

A good question is "don't all artists decline after a decade of success"? You don't see the rolling stones coming up with a new song that is as good as "Tumbling Dice" or "Moonlight Mile". Does that mean they Jagger and Richards are useless without Mick Taylor? What about Stevie Wonder, when was the last time he wrote anything as good as "Golden Lady" "I believe" or "Superstition"? (by the way, Jeff beck created the drumbeat for Superstition) After all, his ex-wife Syreeta Wright co wrote some of his best stuff like "I believe", "blame it on the sun" "Signed sealed and delivered, i'm yours" . Clearly since he hasn't written anything in the past 20 years that is as brilliant as his earlier songs, he must have stolen everything from "jamming sessions" with Syreeta, Jeff Beck and other "collaborators" . Afterall, how else can one explain the fact that he can no longer write music that is as good the 70-76 period? The Stones and Stevie Wonder stole everything they did during their peaks and the evidence is that they cannot come up with that kind of music anymore.

1725topp said:

2elijah said:

You know I always respect your opinion, and I agree with you on the bolded part of your post. I also agree, that a large, part of Prince's fan base, at times, seem to want him to stay in the Revolution era, as well as in a 'rock' genre, moreso than the funk/r&b/soul/ballads/jazz/latin-flavor music, etc., side of Prince. It's almost like some prefer he banishes the latter from his performances, which is surprising, especially because as you have noted, his music has always been diverse, not allowing himself to be pigeon-holed into one genre of music.

I think if he stayed with the Revolution, he could have possiby pigeon-holed himself, somewhat, music and image-wise. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the days of the Revolution/Purple Rain era like many fans, but I also enjoy(ed) the music of the Sign of the Times and LoveSexy, Musicology, Lotusflower, present eras, and the many band member changes throughout the years, giving us diverse flavors of music. I believe that's what makes him an interesting and surviving musician/artist from his early days to present. So do I think he is as good as 'we' (general fan base) might think? Can't speak for an entire fan base, but on an individual basis, I would say it primarily depends on a fan's tastes in music. He gives a little bit of everything to everyone. So fans get the opportunity to choose which forms of his music they gravitate to best.

On another note, with his focus lately on performing more, rock-flavored music, I wonder with this current band, he;s been touring with, if he/they will be able to attract as large a diverse group of fans in the U.S. to attend his shows, in comparison to when he was performing with the most, recent NPG band members, performing more, diverse forms of music, i.e. r&b/blues/jazz/latin-flavored tunes/ballads/rock/country-pop/pop (including from the Musicology era to present).

I haven't seen a full picture of the demographics of the audience at these West Coast concerts, to have a fair judgement of that or their talent, but I guess that remains to be seen, if he does use this current band to perform on the Billboard Awards. The result of their performance, will be a deterrming factor, in how many fans they could attract to see him perform in future days, as well as, how they will be viewed/judged by various, music critics and media outlets and fans of Prince

[Edited 5/10/13 11:53am]

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2elijah, I agree with all of your points, and also want to see the demographics of the audiences coming to see the latest tour and hear their reactions, especially since he isn't featuring the "hits." I, of course, love what I have heard from the latest tour and think that Prince is just doing what makes him feel good and not worrying about the naysayers. In many ways, this latest tour is just another example and microcosm of his entire career, which is doing what he wants, when he wants, how he wants, and at the highest level, regardless of the backlash. And, for that, I continue to dig him. Take care.

I hear you, and thanks for responding. I believe that's why he is lasting so long too. He continues to take risks with his music output by not worrying about the naysayers, and changing bands when fans least expect. Like you stated "..doing what he wants, when and how he wants..." with his music. I think that in and of itself, can be seen as a strength and being fearless, which is how it seems as a musician/artist, he's always portrayed himself regarding his music, and I think those are the ingredients that have always attracted fans to him.

You never know what he is going to do next, music-wise, so in reference to the OP's question, yes I still find that he is still as good as a musician, as he ever was, based on the fact that he doesn't pigeon-hole himself into one music genre/style. The songs he has been releasing for the past 7 years, can all be put into various genres, from rock, pop, r&b, jazz, blues, country-pop, latin-flavor, ballads, funk, funk-rock, you name it, which keeps it all interesting. Haven't had a chance to see him perform live with this current group yet, but only heard a couple of songs that was released on the 3rdeyegirl site. So far one of my favorites I've heard is 'Bambi', mainly because of the heavy, rock guitar he plays, which he has always been very good at. We shall see where it all continues from this stage in his music career.








Typo: 'Musiic to music' edit

[Edited 5/11/13 6:31am]

TrevorAyer said:

hmmmphttht .. i didn't say when doves cry sucked .. i said he wrote his best music when surrounded by great collaborators to draw (take) ideas from and work with .. when he discarded those co workers his own music suffered as well ... previous examples mentioned included john and paul and their competative streak trying to out do each other .. andre and prince had a similar exchange which improved the music undoubtedly .. prince used andres ideas and tried to out do him with his own ideas .. it improved the output weather it came from prince alone or the group .. and yes prince took some ideas and called them his own .. that is fact .. if you read what i actually write you might not sound half as crazed when you type .. you are arguing with yourself again and trying to put words or ideas in my mouth that i did not say .. i never said prince solo work during rev era sucked .. or that he did nothing on his own .. these are your statements not mine

[Edited 5/11/13 5:49am]

you said that Prince on his own sucked. Yes, a guy who wrote WDC, The Beautiful ones, Purple Rain, Anna Stesia, All day all night, etc sucked on his own. I am not the crazy one here, you are.

You are the one who stated that Prince would be an unknown without the revolution. That is craziness. A musician who can write stuff like the above mentioned songs would not be unknown.

And are seriously going to compare Andre and Prince as songwriters? Lol What did Andre write that was as good as WDC, TBO AND Purple rain? Please give me three songs from Andres solo career that can match those three. Prince did not need to "out do" Andre because Prince is a thousand times more gifted songwriter than Andre would ever be. Heck, the biggest hit and arguably the best song of Andre's career (The Dance Electric) was written by, umm Prince.

Nobody's is putting "words" in your mouth, its just that you are coming up with absurd theories and "facts"- of which you have no evidence of.

Skywalker and Tricky are two of my favourite posters. I may be a critical Prince fan, but i do it constructively and without rewriting history. Furthermore, i understand Prince is an unrivalled genius still to this day, whether i agree with his latest movements or not.

Skywalker and Tricky always throwdown every time nonsense pops up. It allows me to withdraw from posting my arguments because it's already been brilliantly said by these two.

1725topp said:

*

On another note that I hope is related, I often wonder what would have happened if ten years ago Prince would have sent songs to various radio stations with no name on it. As we know, since payola still exists and radio stations are in bed with record companies, they more than likely would not have played them, but my point is that after 1990 Prince’s name became just as big of a liability as an asset because, again, so many had etched in stone a one-dimensional notion/definition of who/what Prince is that they would dislike anything he does just because it’s from him. Yes, simultaneously, we have witness so many artists work their way to the top by imitating Prince. So, there is no way that Prince can’t be as good as most of us think that he is because so many others have copied him to make their own name.

Totally agree. In the 1980's MTV, Michael, Prince, etc broke down a lot of barriers in music (rock vs r&b vs pop, etc. )

*

The 90's saw music genres chopped up and isolated by record companies in order to sell. It became more and more rare for someone like Kurt Cobain to be played on the same programming as someone like Dr. Dre.

In that sense, Prince's name became a liability because he is damn hard to categorize. Pop? R&B? Rock? It was great in the MTV all music in one place 1980's, but in the 90's it became difficult for record companies/promoters.

*

For example: Take a songs like "Endorphinemachine" or "Peach" or "Chaos and Disorder." All three of those songs could have been played on "modern Rock" stations in the 90's along side the Red Hot Chili Peppers and such. Yet, it was Prince. He also came with songs like "Pussy Control" "I Hate U" and "Sexy MF." Songs that didn't fit the format... plus, he had/has all of the baggage of being Prince (looks, reputation, etc.)

*

WB was not even sure what to do with one of their biggest stars. They put him in the R&B division/box and tried to restrict/dictate his output. Naturally, Prince was pissed.

[Edited 5/11/13 8:34am]

skywalker said:

1725topp said:

*

On another note that I hope is related, I often wonder what would have happened if ten years ago Prince would have sent songs to various radio stations with no name on it. As we know, since payola still exists and radio stations are in bed with record companies, they more than likely would not have played them, but my point is that after 1990 Prince’s name became just as big of a liability as an asset because, again, so many had etched in stone a one-dimensional notion/definition of who/what Prince is that they would dislike anything he does just because it’s from him. Yes, simultaneously, we have witness so many artists work their way to the top by imitating Prince. So, there is no way that Prince can’t be as good as most of us think that he is because so many others have copied him to make their own name.

Totally agree. In the 1980's MTV, Michael, Prince, etc broke down a lot of barriers in music (rock vs r&b vs pop, etc. )

*

The 90's saw music genres chopped up and isolated by record companies in order to sell. It became more and more rare for someone like Kurt Cobain to be played on the same programming as someone like Dr. Dre.

In that sense, Prince's name became a liability because he is damn hard to categorize. Pop? R&B? Rock? It was great in the MTV all music in one place 1980's, but in the 90's it became difficult for record companies/promoters.

*

For example: Take a songs like "Endorphinemachine" or "Peach" or "Chaos and Disorder." All three of those songs could have been played on "modern Rock" stations in the 90's along side the Red Hot Chili Peppers and such. Yet, it was Prince. He also came with songs like "Pussy Control" "I Hate U" and "Sexy MF." Songs that didn't fit the format... plus, he had/has all of the baggage of being Prince (looks, reputation, etc.)

*

WB was not even sure what to do with one of their biggest stars. They put him in the R&B division/box and tried to restrict/dictate his output. Naturally, Prince was pissed.

[Edited 5/11/13 8:34am]

*

You just summarized why I love and continue to love Prince. Not many people can produce the variety of music that you just cited. And even today, look at the range of music we've gotten from the 3rd Eye Girl phase so far: "That Girl Thing" (of which I'm surprised how much I love it, but I do), "Rock-n-Roll Love Affair," "Screwdriver," "Same Page Different Book," "2Y2D" (of which I love the live version), and "Ain't Gone Miss U." And, of course, there are a few songs that I don't love, such as "Boyfriend" and "Breakfast Can Wait," of which I really like the music, but the lyrics of these two are just so juvenile that they almost completely ruin the experience of the songs. Yet, into his fifties, Prince is still rocking, still funking, still soulful, and still the most diverse dude on the planet. And, I’ve got to add again that the playlist I have from combining the Dakota shows with the current tour is just explosive. I can’t stop listening to these power jams of heavy guitar and a few dashes of soul. Yes, Prince was and still is as good as I always thought. Let me stop before I talk myself into giving the dude knighthood. I’m out. I’mma spend the rest of the day listening to these live jams.

hhhhmttpht .. at least read DMSR the book .. that will give you a little bit more insight .. read other books too and articles and what not .. you will get the picture eventually ..

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhmttpht .. at least read DMSR the book .. that will give you a little bit more insight .. read other books too and articles and what not .. you will get the picture eventually ..

That's just it. I have read DMSR. I bet many people in here have. Yet, I still only agree with about 2percent of what you are saying. Mostly because it is just heavy speculation and personal opinion.

*

Furthermore, you have to understand that DMSR isn't the gospel. Imagine if I interviewed a bunch of your ex coworkers/friends/lovers.

*

I am sure I'd get different versions of "the truth" about your life as well.

[Edited 5/11/13 12:46pm]

skywalker said:

Furthermore, you have to understand that DMSR isn't the gospel. Imagine if I interviewed a bunch of your ex coworkers/friends/lovers.

*

I am sure I'd get different versions of "the truth" about your life as well.

[Edited 5/11/13 12:46pm]

Very good point!