EMPEROR101 said:

(IMO)

Prince hasn't been as successful Commercially or in the studio since he had a team of people helping him to realise his ideas in the REAL world of supply & demand and good business..

sometimes having total freedom feels good but,

its also good to not be surrounded by a bunch of people that only say "YES"

and pat you on the back..

in the warner years Prince had high powered management &

a team around him that made sure all his decisions made Commercial & Artistic sense.

Really? Did they make commercial AND artistic sense?
I think those two things rarely went hand in hand after 1984.

Prince was in charge of Prince and was not prevented from injuring his career commercially after Purple Rain.

*

Around the World in a Day: no single/video until a month after the album came out, released with very little publicity. Prince was THE biggest star in the world and he released an album quietly because it could coast on Purple Rain fumes. The album did well, but was not promoted as much as it could have been.

*

Parade: The ENTIRE film Under the Cherry Moon. Sheridan Wyoming. Enough said

*

Sign O' The Times: "If I was your Girlfriend" as a single, not touring the USA.

*

Lovesexy: Naked Prince on the album cover was the opposite of commercial sense. So was shelving The Black Album.

*

Batman: Commercial sense, yes. Artistic sense? I think so, but it's debatable. I still think is hecka-artistic for a soundtrack to the biggest movie of that era.

*

Graffiti Bridge: No and no. "Thieves in the Temple" is the only thing that worked on both fronts.

*

Diamonds and Pearls: Made commercial sense. Artistic claims waver in the face of Tony M.

*

: Actually quite artistic and ambitious. A Prince rock opera? "7" (a song about the book of Revelation as a smash hit single?) Yet, the album is what put Prince is hot water with WB managment. It went too weird as far as they were concerned. It wasn't commercial as it's predecessor, nor promoted as well. This is where things went bad and the "slave" era dawned.

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

Prince cared more about the art of music than the commercial side of music 4 the better part of his career. Just check his behavior over the past 35 years.

Action speaks louder than words.

Graycap23 said:

Prince cared more about the art of music than the commercial side of music 4 the better part of his career. Just check his behavior over the past 35 years.

Action speaks louder than words.

I agree.

EMPEROR101 said:

I never said that they were able to FORCE Prince to do things in a logical manner.. I said, when he had People around that he had to answer to, Things were marketed much better and the product (Music) always had something that could be marketed to his audience on some level..

obviously Prince isn't the type of artist that will just play the game and strive to be safe and neatly packaged but when he did somewhat have to be a part of a team (Pre 1988) everyone knew when a new Prince release was coming and the hype machine was in full effect and YES he was more commercially successful and sold more records, And (IMO) the proof is in the material..

skywalker said:

EMPEROR101 said:

(IMO)

Prince hasn't been as successful Commercially or in the studio since he had a team of people helping him to realise his ideas in the REAL world of supply & demand and good business..

sometimes having total freedom feels good but,

its also good to not be surrounded by a bunch of people that only say "YES"

and pat you on the back..

in the warner years Prince had high powered management &

a team around him that made sure all his decisions made Commercial & Artistic sense.

Really? Did they make commercial AND artistic sense?
I think those two things rarely went hand in hand after 1984.

Prince was in charge of Prince and was not prevented from injuring his career commercially after Purple Rain.

*

Around the World in a Day: no single/video until a month after the album came out, released with very little publicity. Prince was THE biggest star in the world and he released an album quietly because it could coast on Purple Rain fumes. The album did well, but was not promoted as much as it could have been.

*

Parade: The ENTIRE film Under the Cherry Moon. Sheridan Wyoming. Enough said

*

Sign O' The Times: "If I was your Girlfriend" as a single, not touring the USA.

*

Lovesexy: Naked Prince on the album cover was the opposite of commercial sense. So was shelving The Black Album.

*

Batman: Commercial sense, yes. Artistic sense? I think so, but it's debatable. I still think is hecka-artistic for a soundtrack to the biggest movie of that era.

*

Graffiti Bridge: No and no. "Thieves in the Temple" is the only thing that worked on both fronts.

*

Diamonds and Pearls: Made commercial sense. Artistic claims waver in the face of Tony M.

*

: Actually quite artistic and ambitious. A Prince rock opera? "7" (a song about the book of Revelation as a smash hit single?) Yet, the album is what put Prince is hot water with WB managment. It went too weird as far as they were concerned. It wasn't commercial as it's predecessor, nor promoted as well. This is where things went bad and the "slave" era dawned.

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

Keep some facts in mind

1) 1999 the song it self, would never have been written were it not for Warner Bro telling Prince he needed a better opener

2) Sign Of Times - would have been the triple LP of over bloat and not the masterpiece it became. Nostalgia and mystery of this music makes folks think the 3 LP shot would have been better. It would not have been in reality

3) After WB Prince has had FULL control of his output without anyone in the way. None of it has been up to par. In fact WE was right HE RELEASES TOO MUCH. Most of it over produced and busy. I am a serious fan. i do like SOME of his stuff, but not much.

4) Charlie Wilson has proven that you can have an old school artist who makes hits. Prince is WAY bigger than CW has ever been. Why hasn't Prince been able to get some success like Charlie? Just a thought

DecaturStone said:

EMPEROR101 said:

I never said that they were able to FORCE Prince to do things in a logical manner.. I said, when he had People around that he had to answer to, Things were marketed much better and the product (Music) always had something that could be marketed to his audience on some level..

obviously Prince isn't the type of artist that will just play the game and strive to be safe and neatly packaged but when he did somewhat have to be a part of a team (Pre 1988) everyone knew when a new Prince release was coming and the hype machine was in full effect and YES he was more commercially successful and sold more records, And (IMO) the proof is in the material..

When Prince was at WB his music/art was marketed better. That goes without saying and I never disputed that. You could say that about any major artist on a major label versus and independent/smaller label.

*

What I was responding to/disputing is when you said this:

"in the warner years Prince had high powered management &

a team around him that made sure all his decisions made Commercial & Artistic sense."

*

All his decisions? Made sure?

*

Prince had a team around him. Often made up of different folks through the years. However, there are many examples of his decisions not making commerical sense at all even when he was with WB. Imagine that, only 4 years after Purple Rain, the commercial side of Prince's career (not artisticly speaking) were very dire in the USA. Enter Batman...

*

Ever notice that Prince, even now, gets in the "hype machine is in full effect" when Prince is signed with a major label like Sony or Universal? Example: Musicology sold more copies than Parade. It sold more copies than Lovesexy. That is a (relatively) new Prince record selling more than he did in his 80's prime. Why is that?

*

The album wasn't "better" it was just promoted effectively. That is really what Prince has been missing since WB.

[Edited 5/14/13 18:02pm]

DecaturStone said:

Keep some facts in mind

3) After WB Prince has had FULL control of his output without anyone in the way. None of it has been up to par. In fact WE was right HE RELEASES TOO MUCH. Most of it over produced and busy. I am a serious fan. i do like SOME of his stuff, but not much.

I am actually of the mind that Prince hasn't released nearly as much as he was promising. Especially lately. I mean, he leaves WB in 1996 by 1997 we have our 1st year without a new Prince album since 1983? Wtf?

*

Secondly, no one was telling Prince HOW to make/produce his music when he was with WB. There were no WB suits telling him to put in "more cowbell." They did however limit and restrict his output.

*

Kind of a moot point in the internet age, no? I mean, I feel like the days of packaging an 8-10 song album, and milking it for a year or two are looooong over. Prince, just let me buy what you got and I'll edit the playlist myself.

[Edited 5/14/13 20:29pm]

skywalker said:

You guys need a life. And fuck Miles Davis when he said a little bit of something is a whole lot better than a bunch of nothing. You guys all scream you want everything Prince does, and when he gives it you yell that Warner should be there to stop him. Michael Jackson make like 4 solo albums in his entire career and he's loved. Yeah, it's probably always better to have a task master over your shoulder saying, "Do better, make better, rework this and that!" But it's not the real work of art he had in mind. Maybe all those WB albums would not be a commercially successful, but at least they would have been closer to what Prince had in mind, and we'll never know how that sounded.

Graycap23 said:

Those are not my comments.

Sorry, apparently I don't know how the internet nor a keyboard work. Changed it.

skywalker said:

EMPEROR101 said:

(IMO)

Prince hasn't been as successful Commercially or in the studio since he had a team of people helping him to realise his ideas in the REAL world of supply & demand and good business..

sometimes having total freedom feels good but,

its also good to not be surrounded by a bunch of people that only say "YES"

and pat you on the back..

in the warner years Prince had high powered management &

a team around him that made sure all his decisions made Commercial & Artistic sense.

Really? Did they make commercial AND artistic sense?
I think those two things rarely went hand in hand after 1984.

Prince was in charge of Prince and was not prevented from injuring his career commercially after Purple Rain.

*

Around the World in a Day: no single/video until a month after the album came out, released with very little publicity. Prince was THE biggest star in the world and he released an album quietly because it could coast on Purple Rain fumes. The album did well, but was not promoted as much as it could have been.

*

Parade: The ENTIRE film Under the Cherry Moon. Sheridan Wyoming. Enough said

*

Sign O' The Times: "If I was your Girlfriend" as a single, not touring the USA.

*

Lovesexy: Naked Prince on the album cover was the opposite of commercial sense. So was shelving The Black Album.

*

Batman: Commercial sense, yes. Artistic sense? I think so, but it's debatable. I still think is hecka-artistic for a soundtrack to the biggest movie of that era.

*

Graffiti Bridge: No and no. "Thieves in the Temple" is the only thing that worked on both fronts.

*

Diamonds and Pearls: Made commercial sense. Artistic claims waver in the face of Tony M.

*

: Actually quite artistic and ambitious. A Prince rock opera? "7" (a song about the book of Revelation as a smash hit single?) Yet, the album is what put Prince is hot water with WB managment. It went too weird as far as they were concerned. It wasn't commercial as it's predecessor, nor promoted as well. This is where things went bad and the "slave" era dawned.

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

[Edited 5/14/13 11:01am]

^^Agreed.

With the 0(+> album Prince was moved to the R&B dept for promotions-giving less money to promote that album or any other Prince project.

The WB war back fired in public and private. If Prince just finished his contracts in a public positive manner, the doors might have not been closed so tight at the radio stations when he wanted them to play his new music. But that's the past, nothing we can do about that.

But, if that's what Prince had to do to get free, so be it.

kewlschool said:

The WB war back fired in public and private. If Prince just finished his contracts in a public positive manner, the doors might have not been closed so tight at the radio stations when he wanted them to play his new music. But that's the past, nothing we can do about that.

But, if that's what Prince had to do to get free, so be it.

Interesting...............Prince doesn't think it backfired at all.

Perspective is everything.

SuperSoulFighter said:

Yes, 1993 was when good old Prince gave up one of the biggest selling names in rock to become an unpronounceable symbol and everbody called him...well, fill in 4 yerself. But here's a quote from George Clinton: With Prince he'd been scaring the shit out of WB because he could get his records on the air without involving them, and he could do the same for mine as well. They were already thinking he was too big for his britches when I arrived and they weren't let both of us get away with it. (Mojo mag # 34, sept. 1996) So even if P was widely ridiculed for changing his name and all that, there was at least one fellow musician who understood him. And here's another quote, also from Mojo (#39, feb 1997) by journo Alan Light: I think he could be successful both commercially and artistically if he accepts a role as a major international cult figure. The problem comes when there's a disparity between wanting to have the freedom of a cult artist and wanting to be treated like an A-list superstar. So...what do we think? 20 years of fighting the record companies... Was it a good idea or not? [Edited 5/8/13 12:00pm] [Edited 5/8/13 12:01pm]

For one thing I have kind memories of the whole era: it was EXCITING! The name change was daring, challenging a major record companies after the massive success of D&P and the new contract was daring. Going to independant distribution was daring. Playing mostly in clubs and small venues was daring. Having a setlist of exclusively new material was daring. Using samples massively along live music the way Prince did it at the time was daring. The new music itself was daring (Come/The Gold Experience/Exodus/The Undertaker). And... shaving Mr. Hayes'hair on stage was daring ( )! It was a very exciting time to be a Prince fan and I'm really glad I was already in the boat back then

As for what followed, I wouldn't say Prince has been fighting the majors ever since, since he released stuff on just EVERY other major after 1996 (EMI, BMG, Sony, Universal) but the indie releases, online releases and other adventures such as record stores chains and newspaper were welcome experiments. Prince is at heart BOTH an independant artist (he's too wild to be anything else) AND a major superstar (he's too popular to be anything else) so that's his dilemma and sure it sometimes went against his own benefit but hell, Bowie had the same kind of dilemmas when he became a major superstar in the 80's and suddenly did Tin Machine and there are other examples of artists fighting between independence and success. In a sense what Prince could have done and didn't do in order to be a real wild animal would have been to release more experimental, non-commerical stuff à la kamasutra, The War, C-Note, N.E.W.S.... But in the end he loves pop and funk and that's probably what he does best. I think Prince not only accepts being a "major international cult figure" but embraces it totally, just have a look at the superbowl performance and the hits-friendly setlists he's been giving us all along (for better or worse, depending if you're a hardcore fan or just the average listener).

In the end I don't see why people keep saying that Prince ruined his career by leaving WB. One can dislike the music, that's all personnal tastes, but WB had little if any power over his music anyway, and in terms of career Prince remained a major act all along. Sure Emancipation and Rave were a bad start but that wasn't because of the content, it was because the (major) labels failed to promote them properly because of their own internal issues (something that Prince accused WB of doing but in that case he was wrong, as WB kept promoting his solo work as much as possible in most cases). Prince isn't as much a major seller as he was? sure, but but who is nowadays anyway? I didn't check but I doubt Madonna sold as many copies of MDNA than she did of Like A Prayer. Prince still sell enough to sign with any major company he wishes at any time and that says it all. And his shows are full. His career remains among the most succesful in the history of pop music. So yeah, I guess it was a good idea in the end

DecaturStone said:

Keep some facts in mind

1) 1999 the song it self, would never have been written were it not for Warner Bro telling Prince he needed a better opener

2) Sign Of Times - would have been the triple LP of over bloat and not the masterpiece it became. Nostalgia and mystery of this music makes folks think the 3 LP shot would have been better. It would not have been in reality

3) After WB Prince has had FULL control of his output without anyone in the way. None of it has been up to par. In fact WE was right HE RELEASES TOO MUCH. Most of it over produced and busy. I am a serious fan. i do like SOME of his stuff, but not much.

1) You are correct about 1999 and Gett Off too for that matter, but that's only TWO songs out of hundreds. Sure 1999 was important in P's career but that's taking anecdotes and making them sound as a rule. WB had VERY little to do with what Prince released and didn't, the choice of singles, etc. Besides these 2 songs and SOTT being a double they only really got involved in a few side-projects: asking Jam, Lewis and Johnson in Pandemonium, supporting Ingrid's wishes to sing on May 19, 1991, asking for Carmen Electra's album to be revised, declining to release Gold Nigga and that's pretty much it.

2) I've listened to the 3 LP version (it's circulating though not in crystal clear sound quality) and I'm absolutely convinced that it would have been a much better album than SOTT. It would have been what Emancipation was supposed to be but failed being in the public opinion: a symphony, a magnum opus. Just my opinion, though, I may be wrong but DAMMIT I SO wish the whole thing would have been released as such! The best would actually have been a radio-friendly single LP with all the singles and a limited edition of the 3 LP masterpiece. I don't know why they didn't figure it out back then.

3) On an average Prince released LESS albums per year after WB than he did during WB (if you include the side-projects, of course). Now on a more personnal level I enjoy the post-WB music as much as the WB music but that's just me AND I'm just so fucking glad he released that much stuff ever since the beginning! I don't see how I could wish him to have releases or release less music, I just want to hear everything ever recorded by this man!

Graycap23 said:

kewlschool said:

The WB war back fired in public and private. If Prince just finished his contracts in a public positive manner, the doors might have not been closed so tight at the radio stations when he wanted them to play his new music. But that's the past, nothing we can do about that.

But, if that's what Prince had to do to get free, so be it.

Interesting...............Prince doesn't think it backfired at all.

Perspective is everything.

Yes, perspective is everything. But, Prince did and still could have filled his WB contracts with out the war that didn't serve him well in the public or media. Not that he didn't bring up valid points for artists rights, but he did it in a manner that didn't connect with middle America. Sometimes how you deliver the message is more important than the message itself. History will show him as a leader in artists rights, but with any leader it comes at a price (Lack of radio play etc.).

What I mean by back fired is that his message was lost on the masses with his "slave" persona era.

kewlschool said:

Graycap23 said:

Interesting...............Prince doesn't think it backfired at all.

Perspective is everything.

Yes, perspective is everything. But, Prince did and still could have filled his WB contracts with out the war that didn't serve him well in the public or media. Not that he didn't bring up valid points for artists rights, but he did it in a manner that didn't connect with middle America. Sometimes how you deliver the message is more important than the message itself. History will show him as a leader in artists rights, but with any leader it comes at a price (Lack of radio play etc.).

What I mean by back fired is that his message was lost on the masses with his "slave" persona era.

When does/did Prince ever connect well with "middle America"? Superbowl Halftime Show?