lets talk about it

the ONA version just popped on

shit is brillaint..wannna know why?

becasue like Damn You or Poor Little Bastard, he created a song thats harsh and biting in the form of a classic smooth piano smoky ballad love song

this paired with The Moors In Spain created the prince org clone/civil wars back in the day

newbies dig up..theres more to life that Scewdriving

.

[Edited 4/9/13 19:23pm]

my toes still cringe at the whole 'abraham lincoln' part but the rest of the song

is brilliant.

the vocal delivery! especially on the second verse the vocals are just:

IstenSzek said:

the vocal delivery! especially on the second verse the vocals are just:

exactly

one of his best vocals ever

on a song thats never been heard and in content thats black fistin it

one day these things will get written about but until then we got Toure and them

Great song!

.

[Edited 4/9/13 9:06am]

rd, four words:

-

You have good taste.

-

Although I'd probably side with IstenSzek regarding the Lincoln lyric - somewhat cringeworthy, though I understand where Prince was going with the song and how he made the connection in his mind. But what happened to what he says in "Race" about how he don't wanna know why those before us hated each other....he'd rather believe they never did...he'd rather believe there's hope for a kid...

-

Listening to Prince sometimes requires a piece of advice an English professor once gave me about how to read a book. Ask yourself while reading, "Who is this bastard, and why is he lying to me?"

-

His falsetto in this song is one of the few moments on record where he hits right on the sweet spot for me, comparable to this part of When The Lights Go Down:

-

Girl, you'd better knowReally, until you do it couple of times in a row...

-

*awesome*

LadyZsaZsa said:

It was the first time I'd ever seen anyone walk out on Prince. Don't let the door hit you...!

IstenSzek said:

my toes still cringe at the whole 'abraham lincoln' part but the rest of the song

is brilliant.

the vocal delivery! especially on the second verse the vocals are just:

When I saw the ONA live show, some folks with me where put off by the lyrics about Abraham Lincoln. None of us had heard the studio version yet, so we didn't understand the full context.

I think the issue was the Abraham Lincoln lyric came through very clearly while the rest of the song was hard to follow live (much easier on the studio version). Hearing it the first time live, from the upper balcony, with people nearby talking, and everybody wanting to dance didn't go well. We're just standing there, not hearing the lyrics clearly or understanding the song, and all of a sudden "Abraham Lincoln was a racist". Wait, where did that come from? Can we please get a lyric sheet? What release is this song on? I definitely see his point and largely agree to some, but I thought he was playing a ballad of some kind.

Once I heard the studio version, it became one of my post-2000 favorites.

[Edited 4/9/13 14:45pm]

so ONA Live is the only place to cop Avalanche? or is it on some unavailable NPGMC stuff? I've never heard it and feel compelled to "dig" given such lavish praise. i love "deep" Prince!!

datdude said:

controversy99 said:

Doozer said:

But what happened to what he says in "Race" about how he don't wanna know why those before us hated each other....he'd rather believe they never did...he'd rather believe there's hope for a kid...

Thankfully, Prince matured and realized that naivety is one element that perpetuates the enslavement of fools. Not that I don't enjoy "Race," but I always cringe at how naive (miseducated) that line sounds. If I choose to believe that my light bill, water bill, and mortgage are not coming at the end of the month, does that mean they won't get disconnected if I don't pay them? So choosing to believe that racism and slavery didn’t happen isn’t intellectually deep or revolutionary; it’s just…batshit crazy. Oh yeah, I dig "Avalanche."

This song gave me chills the first time I heard it, and it still does. Just gorgeous.

Aside from the "Aaaaaabraham" scream, which kills me (and I love the lyrics too, because it's true that the version of history we learn in school is far from accurate, and not just on this topic), my favorite vocal delivery is:

"Who's that lurking in the shadows?
Mr. John Hammond with his pen in hand...
sayin' "Sign yr kingdom over to me
and be known throughout the land!"
But, u ain't got no money, U ain't got no cash,
So u sign yr name and he claims innocence
just like every snowflake in an avalanche..."

I mean, yeah, okay, it's the same old evil record company executive stuff ... but it's a more poetic twist than usual, and like Brendan said, he could be singing almost anything and that emotion in his voice would kill me. And it does. Every time.

Songs like this are why I can't handle bullshit like "LOL" or "Box of Chocolates."

[Edited 4/10/13 21:07pm]

SuperSoulFighter said:

Poor Abe. You free the slaves, get your country thru a civil war and still folks complain.

SuperSoulFighter said:

I'm not an American and I don't know too much about it. I'm sure economic reasons were there, but idealism, the thought that nobody should be a slave, must have played a part in Lincoln's actions. Besides, we should look at all of this within the context of the time. [Edited 4/13/13 0:29am]

There are many Americans who aren't aware of how Lincoln felt about freeing the slaves. Most educators, especially around the civil rights era, and thereafter, only taught their students that "Lincoln freed the slaves", and didn't go any further than that or dig deep into the mindset of Lincoln.

Lincoln had to be convinced to free the slaves for the benefit of the North, by crippling the slave economy of the South, as many southerners were heavily dependent on slavery. Slavery being most Southerners' economic source of survival. Slavery was their currency/insurance package of that time period. If you owned slaves, you could sell/trade them for basic resources, pay for your childrens' education and send them to the best schools, put food on the table, purchase land, a home, and purchase many material items. Slavery gave birth to wealth for many. So if you take away someone's source of income/source of survival, you take food off their table, and money out of their pockets.

Lincoln believed that Blacks (or enslaved Blacks) were unequal to Whites. biologically/genetically. His concern was that if he freed the slaves, he did not want them living/mixing with Whites, as he did not believe that Africans, free or not, were equal to Whites. I think this is where many got confused, and still do, believing Lincoln was this kind gentlemen, who loved enslaved Africans and their descendants so much, that he freed them. Lincoln's concern about freeing the slaves, was that he did not want Blacks living/mixing among Whites. He believed that Blacks and Whites were not equal as humans, and that Blacks were inferior to Whites, and not entitled to the same, rights as Whites. The latter is just one of the ingredients of one with a racist mindset, so no, Prince was not wrong for exposing that uncomfortable, ugly truth about Lincoln in his song.

I think that line in the song about Lincoln being a racist, shocked or angered many of Prince's fans, probably because many were misinformed about Lincoln, due to lack of their own research and only aware of what they were taught about Lincoln.

[Edited 4/13/13 4:59am]

SuperSoulFighter said:

That was also the way of thinking of the European colonialists who fought the slave trade in Africa. "Let's free those poor heathens from slavery and civilize them at the same time!" One can be idealistic, paternalistic and have an eye for economic gain all at the same time! Anyway,2elijah, you did a better job of explaining this than Prince did! [Edited 4/13/13 5:45am]

No problem. Actually the Europeans didn't free enslaved members of African ethnic groups by going into Africa and buying/trading them, because the Europeans only intention was to keep the Africans they purchased, traded and sold, to keep them 'in slavery', and profit off the slaves for the Europeans' own survival benefits.

Furthermore, the Europeans were involved in South/Central American/Caribbean enslavement of many Amerindian ethnic groups, prior to/during enslavement of Africans from Africa. Anyway, that's a whole 'nother topic for another thread, but again, Prince was not wrong for sharing that information, the way he did in that song, with that one-liner exposing Lincoln having a racist mindset, because I'm sure if Prince went 'further' with that information in the song, it may have taken away the shock value, and attention those lyrics raised among fans, and may have caused more anger and misunderstanding of the awareness of that message he was expressing about Lincoln.

Prince gave his listeners just enough information in that line to grasp their attention, question that information, discuss and research it on their own. Sometimes all you have to do is give people a teaspoon of the truth to taste and swallow.

[Edited 4/13/13 8:49am]

2elijah said:

SuperSoulFighter said:

That was also the way of thinking of the European colonialists who fought the slave trade in Africa. "Let's free those poor heathens from slavery and civilize them at the same time!" One can be idealistic, paternalistic and have an eye for economic gain all at the same time! Anyway,2elijah, you did a better job of explaining this than Prince did! [Edited 4/13/13 5:45am]

No problem. Actually the Europeans didn't free enslaved members of African ethnic groups by going into Africa and buying/trading them, because the Europeans only intention was to keep the Africans they purchased, traded and sold, to keep them 'in slavery', and profit off the slaves for the Europeans' own survival benefits.

Furthermore, the Europeans were involved in South/Central American/Caribbean enslavement of many Amerindian ethnic groups, prior to/during enslavement of Africans from Africa. Anyway, that's a whole 'nother topic for another thread, but again, Prince was not wrong and was very smart in the way he exposed that Lincoln had a racist mindset in that song, because I'm sure if Prince went 'further' , so-to-speak, about it, in the song, it may have caused more anger and misunderstanding of his message among fans. Prince gave his listeners just enough information in that line to grasp their attention, question that information, discuss and research it on their own. Sometimes all you have to do is give people a teaspoon of the truth for them to taste and swallow.

[Edited 4/13/13 8:41am]

2elijah, thanks for responding so informatively to SuperSoulFighter. I started to respond, but, honestly, the statement seemed so uninformed that I couldn't decide if it was a statement of sarcasm or complete ignorance. Thus, it was better that I not respond because it seems that SuperSoulFighter did not have a complete understanding of American history and politics, and you did an excellent job of explaining it whereas I probably would have just call SuperSoulFigher some bad name as I seem to be growing very impatient and aggressive in my old age. Again, great job! However, in response to SuperSoulFighter's final comment that you did a better job of explaining American history and politics than Prince did, I agree with the great American novelist and poet Ishmael Reed when he states that he wants "readerly readers" reading his works because stupid people ask stupid questions. When an artist creates, one is creating in a cultural or communal context. Thus, it is the job of the receiver of that art to be informed of the cultural or communal context that informs or creates the art before one makes some half-assed comment about the art because one doesn't understand, again, the cultural or communal context of the art. In a similar but not as serious example, there were some people not from the US who did not understand the metaphor that Prince was using in "Walk Don't Walk" because they did not have the same type of system for crossing or walking through street intersections. In that case, it wasn't that Prince hadn't done a "good job" of explaining the context of the song; it was simply that some of the listeners did not know the context. Yet, for SuperSoulFigher to blame Prince for his/her own ignorance is just...ignorant. And, I don't mean that in a malicious manner, but just as "uninformed" behavior.

I'm Italian and I know veeeery little about Lincoln. That shocking line in the song made me do research and rose up curiosity on the subject... Which is a pretty good achievement for a song anyway, IMHO. I mean, my history teacher at high school wasn't able to do the same

1725topp said:

2elijah said:

No problem. Actually the Europeans didn't free enslaved members of African ethnic groups by going into Africa and buying/trading them, because the Europeans only intention was to keep the Africans they purchased, traded and sold, to keep them 'in slavery', and profit off the slaves for the Europeans' own survival benefits.

Furthermore, the Europeans were involved in South/Central American/Caribbean enslavement of many Amerindian ethnic groups, prior to/during enslavement of Africans from Africa. Anyway, that's a whole 'nother topic for another thread, but again, Prince was not wrong and was very smart in the way he exposed that Lincoln had a racist mindset in that song, because I'm sure if Prince went 'further' , so-to-speak, about it, in the song, it may have caused more anger and misunderstanding of his message among fans. Prince gave his listeners just enough information in that line to grasp their attention, question that information, discuss and research it on their own. Sometimes all you have to do is give people a teaspoon of the truth for them to taste and swallow.

[Edited 4/13/13 8:41am]

2elijah, thanks for responding so informatively to SuperSoulFighter. I started to respond, but, honestly, the statement seemed so uninformed that I couldn't decide if it was a statement of sarcasm or complete ignorance. Thus, it was better that I not respond because it seems that SuperSoulFighter did not have a complete understanding of American history and politics, and you did an excellent job of explaining it whereas I probably would have just call SuperSoulFigher some bad name as I seem to be growing very impatient and aggressive in my old age. Again, great job! However, in response to SuperSoulFighter's final comment that you did a better job of explaining American history and politics than Prince did, I agree with the great American novelist and poet Ishmael Reed when he states that he wants "readerly readers" reading his works because stupid people ask stupid questions. When an artist creates, one is creating in a cultural or communal context. Thus, it is the job of the receiver of that art to be informed of the cultural or communal context that informs or creates the art before one makes some half-assed comment about the art because one doesn't understand, again, the cultural or communal context of the art. In a similar but not as serious example, there were some people not from the US who did not understand the metaphor that Prince was using in "Walk Don't Walk" because they did not have the same type of system for crossing or walking through street intersections. In that case, it wasn't that Prince hadn't done a "good job" of explaining the context of the song; it was simply that some of the listeners did not know the context. Yet, for SuperSoulFigher to blame Prince for his/her own ignorance is just...ignorant. And, I don't mean that in a malicious manner, but just as "uninformed" behavior.

Always a pleasure to hear from you 1725Stopp. I do believe Supersoulfighter was being honest about not having much knowledge of American history, and much respect to him for admitting that. I think many are 'uninformed' about a lot of American, historical events, not really by the all the fault of their own, but being taught very little about specific historical events by many educators, who can basically only give them minimal information, on specific events. Then there are some educators, not all, who may know the facts/truths of specific, historical events, but choose not to share that info with their students, probably in fear of losing their jobs/or angering their colleagues who may have an authoritative position over them within their institution of employ. Although it's no excuse for people in general, to not make an effort to do further research on their own. Today, there is more access to detailed, historical information than ever before.

I was actually one of the 'misinformed' about Lincoln for a while, until a friend of mine, some years ago, who had a love for history, shared some interesting information with me about Lincoln, which jumpstarted my effort to research other historical events, a little further than what I was taught during my public to high school years. Prior to that, I was 'bamboozled' like many in American society. It pays to make an effort to go beyond historical information you are taught in school, and weigh the facts and make comparisons. Let me just say in no way did I express that information about Lincoln better than Prince did in that song, because Prince was able to raise awareness and questions about Lincoln, and the other mentions in that song, by the limited information he shared. He did that in many of his songs, and pretty much forced his fans to 'listen to the message' and to not be bamboozled by 'what you think you know', without doing further research to know the facts/truths.

The same with his song 'Dreamer'. Some fans were very critical of the socio-political message in the song, as it touched on race/socio-political and environmental/conspiracy issues. It makes me wonder why so many become angered when someone raises awareness of societal issues, even in song. Muisicians/Artists have been doing that for years as a way to raise social consciousness, such as Curtis Mayfield, Joan Baez, Gil Scott Heron and many other musicians/artists did in the past, as well as many today, that some record companies prefer to 'silence' and not promote.

However, I have to admit, that I could imagine if I heard him sing that line in 'Avalanche' live about Lincoln, and sitting among an audience, I believe I may have felt/or feel a bit uncomfortable hearing such an ugly and uncomfortable truth sung 'out loud'. Especially when around the 7th and 8th line, he sings about Lincoln being a racist, it catches you off guard, but sure will get your attention and make you think and question it. I thought Prince did that brillliantly, in the way he exposed that information about Lincoln 'in song', in which Lincoln was a man many were taught to honor, praise and then celebrate a holiday after, yet many unaware, even in present day of Lincoln's racist mindset during a time, when that mindset was embraced by many, although so wrong in many ways.

[Edited 4/13/13 11:02am]

SuperSoulFighter said:

This is getting interesting. On the Rainbow Children album/Vegas dvd Prince also talks about Jefferson Franklin owning slaves. And then we have the Kevin Smith doc where he recalls a conversation where people were saying: Prince hates white people. As far as I remember I saw all of this before hearing Avalanche, so all of this together makes for a...wtf is he talking about?!?!?!! So that's putting the song into context as far as I experienced it. But still, I don't think P gave us "just enough" information. I think he could have done a better job of explaining what he meant. [Edited 4/13/13 11:18am]

But that's just it. You wouldn't be as curious and interested if he told you all. You wouldn't make the effort to research the historical information he sings about to see how much truth there is to what he expresses about it. The way he shares 'just a little' of historical or socio-political events, is what keeps the curiousity of it alive and interesting, enough for you to keep questioning "But what does or did he mean by that?" He sort of does it in an 'in your face' fashion. Look at it this way, if the lyrics didn't ruffle some feathers enough to make you question or think about it, then we (fans) wouldn't be discussing some of those type songs of his, years after he released them.

[Edited 4/13/13 11:29am]

SuperSoulFighter said:

This is getting interesting. On the Rainbow Children album/Vegas dvd Prince also talks about Jefferson Franklin owning slaves. And then we have the Kevin Smith doc where he recalls a conversation where people were saying: Prince hates white people. As far as I remember I saw all of this before hearing Avalanche, so all of this together makes for a...wtf is he talking about?!?!?!! So that's putting the song into context as far as I experienced it. But still, I don't think P gave us "just enough" information. I think he could have done a better job of explaining what he meant. [Edited 4/13/13 11:18am]

If you're referring to Thomas Jefferson (which is who Prince mentions on the live version of Family Name : "This is Thomas Jefferson.... Yes, I owned slaves, too!") This is a historical fact. Not only did Jefferson own slaves, but it was long rumored that he fathered children with a slave, and while there is no way to know if this is one hundred percent true or not, DNA testing in 1998 proved that at least one male member of the Jefferson family fathered children with a slave.

[Edited 4/13/13 11:35am]