the other thread got me thinking

in all honesty much as i love the guy

his lyrics have always been a weak part of his output

seeing them wrtten down here really drove that home

sign of the times is a great lyric

condition of the heart is a great lyric

but seldom can you read the lyrics in isolation and think there is anything profound or deep going on . Prince will be remembered as a great performer .. writer and multi instruementalist

always felt lyrics were secondary

manic monday a good pop narrative

similar to raspberet beret

but compared to Joni Mitchell .. who he likes but i cant see any influence from and he comes across like a schoolboy writing hallmark cards

they work well with the music so thats enough ..

[Edited 2/28/13 14:25pm]

Disagree, they are one of his strengths.

Many of the greats though are unreleased, think Inalargeroomwithnolight and Moonbeam Levels...

[Edited 2/28/13 14:42pm]

yh moonbeam levels opening couplet is beautiful .. then it falls off for me

in a large room strains too hard to be a social commentary.. something sott does well and rather more effortlessly

given the amount of songs he records, releases and stores in the vault i think it's imposssible for him or anyone to maintain the quality and originality of the lyric. Therefore a lot does come across as lazy or just a copy of previous works..how many ways are there to say I love you or I wanna fuck you!!

Forgot to mention Allegiance and Open Book....many of his ballads (D Parker) have beautiful lyrics...

[Edited 2/28/13 15:03pm]

Of course, we may all be discussing personal taste, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your position. I’ve stated this many times before, but when we check his lyrical history, Prince has been just as creatively socio-political as most: "Baby," "Party Up," "Uptown," "Controversy," "Sexuality," "Ronnie Talk to Russia," "Anne Christian," "1999," "Free," "Around the World in a Day," "Raspberry Beret," "Paisley Park," "Condition of the Heart," "Christopher Tracy's Parade," "Mountains," "Sign 'O' the Times," "Play in the Sunshine," "Starfish and Coffee," "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker," "The Cross," "Eye No," "Lovesexy," "Dance On," "New Power Generation," "Graffiti Bridge," "Still Would Stand all Time," "Thunder," "Live 4 Love," "Walk Don't Walk," "Money Don't Matter 2night," "Push," "Sacrifice of Victor," "The Exodus Has Begun," "Don't Play Me," most of The Rainbow Children, and "Colonized Mind." The problem is that if we don't agree with the message, then we call it a bullshit message, but I'll put Prince's engagement of socio-political issues against almost anyone, as well as his imagery and symbolism. Of course, most miss Prince's messages because he has been as much about individual liberation as he has been about group, racial, or communal liberation, and most do not realize that his songs about sex and romantic relationships, such as "Little Red Corvette" and "Strange Relationship," often have deeper figurative messages than most comprehend. Yet, he has constantly found a way to discuss the notion that sexual desire is as much a desire for metaphysical fufillment as it is a desire for physical gratification while also continuing to find interesting ways to discuss the nuances of individualism. Additionally, Prince, like Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, is more diverse than most because his imagery and symbolism are just as powerful articulating the sexual as well as the socio-political. And, when we add songs, such as "Old Friends 4 Sale," "Don’t Play Me," and "Reflection," Prince seems to be able to be both personal and creative with imagery. Of course, we each must define what is a well-constructed image or symbol, but it seems that Prince's lyrical mastery puts him with some of the best.

Can't agree at all.

His lyrics for his funk and pop songs are far above most of the artists doing similar music.

You can try yourself coming up with some lyrics for funk-based music and see for yourself how hard it can be to make it work. Seriously, try it. Take the melody from a track like "Let's Work" or "It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night" and try writing your own lyrics for it.

lol

didnt expect an easy ride

part of the issue is that he doesnt write personal lyrics.. or seldom anyway (no need to rehash the story of OFFS or Wally)

it is a matter of taste but to state Ronnie talkk to russia is a good lyric surely stretches the imagination..he handles the complex matter of American Russian nuclear relations with all the sublety of Secreteriat with shovels for hoofs

the manifesto songs are just embarassing ..and petulent .. which is fine cause he was barely an adult ..but they are what they are

when your child brings home a splodge and says 'its china daddy' praise him .. love him

but it aint good cause.. its a splodge

he does have a good pop sensibility for a metaphor ie LRC

but how many songs are out there 1000s if you include the Vault stuff and i defy anybody to come up with 20 decent lyrics

he is a good humourist .. girl of my dreams is funny and smart

but was kinda hoping for a more constructive debate .. rather than .. nah man your wrong ,,i like him

there are subjective ways to analyse the merit of lyrics .. this is where this needs to start

we all love him hence we are here n were on on TRH and were saving our pocket money to buy moody cassettes in Camden

that dont stop subjectivity

alexander99 said:

lol

didnt expect an easy ride

part of the issue is that he doesnt write personal lyrics.. or seldom anyway (no need to rehash the story of OFFS or Wally)

it is a matter of taste but to state Ronnie talkk to russia is a good lyric surely stretches the imagination..he handles the complex matter of American Russian nuclear relations with all the sublety of Secreteriat with shovels for hoofs

the manifesto songs are just embarassing ..and petulent .. which is fine cause he was barely an adult ..but they are what they are

when your child brings home a splodge and says 'its china daddy' praise him .. love him

but it aint good cause.. its a splodge

he does have a good pop sensibility for a metaphor ie LRC

but how many songs are out there 1000s if you include the Vault stuff and i defy anybody to come up with 20 decent lyrics

he is a good humourist .. girl of my dreams is funny and smart

but was kinda hoping for a more constructive debate .. rather than .. nah man your wrong ,,i like him

there are subjective ways to analyse the merit of lyrics .. this is where this needs to start

we all love him hence we are here n were on on TRH and were saving our pocket money to buy moody cassettes in Camden

that dont stop subjectivity

You're entitled to expressing your dislike for Prince's lyrics, but that is just preposterous.

Have to say I disagree strongly with your statement. Lyrically he is as good as anyone whether it about making a socio-political statement (sign of the times), love song (adore), something sexy (scandulous), funny (movie star), story (ICNTTPOYM).

When your output is as prolific as Prince's of course there will be songs that are none of the above but put his best 20 lyrical songs in a list and then compare them with whoever you want and Prince won't be lacking.

I tend to agree with you alexander99.

Though there are great and very interesting lyrics among his overwhelmingly huge output, there are just as much songs with lyrics for me that make an otherwise great song, less of a masterpiece it musically is.

An example is Gold's opening line ...

"There's a mountain and it's mighty high
U cannot see the top unless U fly"

There are amazingly funny lyrics (Scarlet Pussy, Movie Star, Rockhard in a Funky Place) that just crack you up or loads of love songs that express deep felt emotions, but there truly also are loads and loads empty, shallow, uninspired lines that lack creativity, that seems to suffer of lack of attention or true interest, I guess.

And yeah, the bottom line is that he's not up there with Lennon, Dylan, Morrison, Mitchel or N. Young, when it comes to lyrics.

I love most of Prince's lyrics. Some of them are unique and clever, not to mention very sexy, but he is no Bob Dylan either.

I'd say his lyrical content has been subpar in the past few years, but prior to that.....totally disagree

well lyrics are more than just lyrics .. it is how you deliver them too .. that is what separates a songwriter performer from someone you actually enjoy listening to

an oh yeah .. or uh huh can have more impact than one of prince long lectures backed by elevator music

prince actually screaming sounds better than his referencing his scream in rnr love affair

lyrically it is fair to say prince is in the toilet these days

he hasn't had a decent woman or friend or bandmate to lift funny or cool phrases from in some time .. the company he keeps never says .. prince you sound like your mouth is full of marbles .. maybe simplify the concept

or ..

prince you are short bald and wear your pjs .. you are the furthest thing from sexually attractive .. stop writing about your sexual prowess .. it doesn't count if you have to pay for it .. and we know you pay for it by the way you seduce the listeners with songs bout money instead of writing actual poetry

prince can't write a good lyric anymore .. he has good ideas .. dreamer and colonized mind were good ideas .. but the deliver is bad and a rehash of hendrix and lennon anyway .. and when you rehash you need to improve upon it .. not sound like a stale clone

lyrically prince used to be great .. ever since gold exp his lyrics took a huge nose dive only occasionally showing brilliance or inspiration .. this is what frustrates the fans the most .. prince music still has a lot of potential but he manages to ruin every single song with some horrible horrible lyric that just fucks everything up .. prince is the equivalent to a christian 2 live crew these days .. except 2 live crew were better ..

lyrically prince has nothing to say because he is illuminati now .. he worships and promotes money laced with new age christianity as tho it were his niche to save him from the devil worship .. prince sold his soul, his friends, his lovers, now his life is empty and so are his lyrics

prince has had it too easy for too long .. with out friction there is no growth .. just a lifeless pod of a being shilling out slabs of poo and hoping someone is still stupid or enamoured enouph to pay for it so he can buy more make up .. ugly earings and pj's

TrevorAyer said:

well lyrics are more than just lyrics .. it is how you deliver them too .. that is what separates a songwriter performer from someone you actually enjoy listening to

an oh yeah .. or uh huh can have more impact than one of prince long lectures backed by elevator music

prince actually screaming sounds better than his referencing his scream in rnr love affair

lyrically it is fair to say prince is in the toilet these days

he hasn't had a decent woman or friend or bandmate to lift funny or cool phrases from in some time .. the company he keeps never says .. prince you sound like your mouth is full of marbles .. maybe simplify the concept

or ..

prince you are short bald and wear your pjs .. you are the furthest thing from sexually attractive .. stop writing about your sexual prowess .. it doesn't count if you have to pay for it .. and we know you pay for it by the way you seduce the listeners with songs bout money instead of writing actual poetry

prince can't write a good lyric anymore .. he has good ideas .. dreamer and colonized mind were good ideas .. but the deliver is bad and a rehash of hendrix and lennon anyway .. and when you rehash you need to improve upon it .. not sound like a stale clone

lyrically prince used to be great .. ever since gold exp his lyrics took a huge nose dive only occasionally showing brilliance or inspiration .. this is what frustrates the fans the most .. prince music still has a lot of potential but he manages to ruin every single song with some horrible horrible lyric that just fucks everything up .. prince is the equivalent to a christian 2 live crew these days .. except 2 live crew were better ..

lyrically prince has nothing to say because he is illuminati now .. he worships and promotes money laced with new age christianity as tho it were his niche to save him from the devil worship .. prince sold his soul, his friends, his lovers, now his life is empty and so are his lyrics

prince has had it too easy for too long .. with out friction there is no growth .. just a lifeless pod of a being shilling out slabs of poo and hoping someone is still stupid or enamoured enouph to pay for it so he can buy more make up .. ugly earings and pj's

You really don't like pjs, do you?

He's got a great way with phrasing and creating words that sound brilliant (Endorphinmachine, Days of Wild, Purple Rain) and, in this way, he's incredibly poetic. He's hardly consistent though, even across the space of a single song. The lyrics almost always feel secondary to the music. With very few exceptions they don't stand up on their own and that's fine, they're not supposed to.

kmt

i didnt say i didnt like his lyrics .. just they are a weak link in his music.

He is a great guitarist

Kick ass bass player

Half decent pianist

great drum programmer etc

when i see mountains sited as a great lyric .. thats not right .. that is a great song cos of the groove

the version at the Revolution reunion locks this down .. his words are 'generally' not evocative

many seem hurried and there is little sense of narative. sott is great .words that make you think and smartly observed commentary.. few of his songs are like this

IWYG is good and novel as hes attempting something unique .. nobody else could have written that when he did .. and he has a cute gift for a pop lyric .. how many of his songs have lyrics that make you identify with the subject matter...

why get confused with liking something and forget the critical facilities

For some reason, when I first saw this thread I thought it said "Prince as a cocksman."

pray4rain said:

alexander99 said:

lol

didnt expect an easy ride

part of the issue is that he doesnt write personal lyrics.. or seldom anyway (no need to rehash the story of OFFS or Wally)

it is a matter of taste but to state Ronnie talkk to russia is a good lyric surely stretches the imagination..he handles the complex matter of American Russian nuclear relations with all the sublety of Secreteriat with shovels for hoofs

the manifesto songs are just embarassing ..and petulent .. which is fine cause he was barely an adult ..but they are what they are

when your child brings home a splodge and says 'its china daddy' praise him .. love him

but it aint good cause.. its a splodge

he does have a good pop sensibility for a metaphor ie LRC

but how many songs are out there 1000s if you include the Vault stuff and i defy anybody to come up with 20 decent lyrics

he is a good humourist .. girl of my dreams is funny and smart

but was kinda hoping for a more constructive debate .. rather than .. nah man your wrong ,,i like him

there are subjective ways to analyse the merit of lyrics .. this is where this needs to start

we all love him hence we are here n were on on TRH and were saving our pocket money to buy moody cassettes in Camden

that dont stop subjectivity

First, while I understand your point, it is presumptuous of you to assume that Prince doesn't write personal lyrics. How much more personal than "Old Friends 4 Sale," "Strange Relationship," and "Reflection" do you want him to be? Additionally, personal doesn't just mean first-person narrative, so songs from Lovesexy, The Rainbow Children, and others can be deeply personal for him. Secondly, as a matter of taste, personal lyrics don't move me any more than more objective/third-person narrative lyrics, and as a regular reader of poetry, I think that far too many poets have been celebrated for exposing their personal when their actual craftsmanship (mastery of literary device) is mediocre at best. I like Sylvia Plath, but I've always felt that she is celebrated as much, if not more, for her obsession with death than for her actual craftsmanship, which is good to great.

*

Next, just like there is an art of subtlety, there is also a time and art of being creatively blatant and over the top. Thinking in terms of Amiri Baraka's "Black Art," for instance, the grandiose imagery and violent tone, created by the meter and imagery, is purposeful for Baraka to show that African people must awake from their coma of self-hatred. So, the loud and boisterous tone, again, created by the diction and imagery, is effective because it is purposely crafted to be just that. In a similar way, "Ronnie Talk to Russia" is not about subtlety but about the notion that subtly and so-called high level diplomacy have done nothing to improve the situation because our elected officials don't listen to us and often use high level diplomacy as double talk to mislead the masses while using war as a cash cow. (Linking to "Party Up," Prince states: "Because of their half-baked mistakes/ We get ice cream No cake.") Thus, "Ronnie Talk to Russion" is a "riot" of lyrics and screaming guitars that is needed because the leaders and the masses did not respond to the logic of "Party Up," making "Ronnie Talk to Russia" a chant, a proclamation, a riot. Accordingly, like any poet, Prince is using structure--the structure of the riot--to add meaning to his lyrics. So, it is meant to mimic a mass-movement chant. Also, the imagery of going to zoo and being unable to "feed left wing guerrillas" works to show that a shout or a riot is needed because we now live in the world of the absurd and the nihilist with most acting as if this absurdity and nihilism is the norm. Then, Prince's paralleling Reagan’s personal experience of being shot with the fear of world destruction works in an attempt to show politicians how their personal welfare is tied to the welfare of the world when we know that many politicians don't view their personal welfare as being tied to the welfare of the masses, which is why they make so many decisions that directly harm the masses. So, Prince's lyrics serve as both a warning and pop-prophecy. "Ronnie, if you're dead before I get to meet you," combined with "you wanna blow up the world," is an attempt to force politicians and the masses to view/realize that the fate of a politician is directly tied to the fate of the masses and that what is good or bad for the people will ultimately be good or bad for the politician. Now, returning to aesthetic taste, while some would like this more subtlety stated, it seems that one point of the song is that the world is so loud, the evil so loud and powerful, that subtlety can’t reach the leaders or the masses. So, turn up the guitars, shout the chants, and provide outlandish imagery to get the people’s attention, which becomes a creative use of song structure. Unfortunately for Prince, what determines if his message is effective is not just his mastery of literary device, but also how seriously a listener is able to take someone making this statement while wearing make-up, bikini briefs, leg warmers, and high heels.

I love his lyrics. As others have said a lot of them are funny and I like how sometimes they surprise you with how normal they are.

And who else could rhyme Delores with Brontosaurus.

purplethunder3121 said:

For some reason, when I first saw this thread I thought it said "Prince as a cocksman."

I thought it said "as a swordsman".

30-day soft contact lenses are pretty cool, but they do get a bit blurry towards that 30-day period of using them.

novabrkr said:

purplethunder3121 said:

For some reason, when I first saw this thread I thought it said "Prince as a cocksman."

I thought it said "as a swordsman".

30-day soft contact lenses are pretty cool, but they do get a bit blurry towards that 30-day period of using them.

But you actually have a good excuse for that mistake...

1725topp

what you are talking about regarding Ronnie Talk To Russia is in delivery and production .. not in lyrics. The lyrics of RTTR are not any level incisive or worthy of any proper analysis ... left wing gorillas .. thats schoolboy crap .. which is fine as he wasnt much older .. but if you are going to handle social issues .. perhaps more understanding is needed ...Strange Relationship .. is a great song but to describe a lyric that plays around with happy and sad as personal ...well it maybe about him and sussanah ... but its relys on cliches.. always thought Forever in my life was more personal and in terms of performance on of his more honest songs ..OFFS is just a star telling a story ..life is no fun without fantasy is a great line but its Prince telling of his persona .. its a blues of Hello ..

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Disagree, they are one of his strengths.

Many of the greats though are unreleased, think Inalargeroomwithnolight and Moonbeam Levels...

[Edited 2/28/13 14:42pm]

I think Prince is a "master" wordsmith. In a Large Room With No Light is an excellent example. I love Glass Cutter and the way Prince has the ability to merge the music with the lyric. I admit, he does have his off days, but this dude is truly a gifted genius as a wordsmith.

1725topp said:

Of course, we may all be discussing personal taste, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your position. I’ve stated this many times before, but when we check his lyrical history, Prince has been just as creatively socio-political as most: "Baby," "Party Up," "Uptown," "Controversy," "Sexuality," "Ronnie Talk to Russia," "Anne Christian," "1999," "Free," "Around the World in a Day," "Raspberry Beret," "Paisley Park," "Condition of the Heart," "Christopher Tracy's Parade," "Mountains," "Sign 'O' the Times," "Play in the Sunshine," "Starfish and Coffee," "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker," "The Cross," "Eye No," "Lovesexy," "Dance On," "New Power Generation," "Graffiti Bridge," "Still Would Stand all Time," "Thunder," "Live 4 Love," "Walk Don't Walk," "Money Don't Matter 2night," "Push," "Sacrifice of Victor," "The Exodus Has Begun," "Don't Play Me," most of The Rainbow Children, and "Colonized Mind." The problem is that if we don't agree with the message, then we call it a bullshit message, but I'll put Prince's engagement of socio-political issues against almost anyone, as well as his imagery and symbolism. Of course, most miss Prince's messages because he has been as much about individual liberation as he has been about group, racial, or communal liberation, and most do not realize that his songs about sex and romantic relationships, such as "Little Red Corvette" and "Strange Relationship," often have deeper figurative messages than most comprehend. Yet, he has constantly found a way to discuss the notion that sexual desire is as much a desire for metaphysical fufillment as it is a desire for physical gratification while also continuing to find interesting ways to discuss the nuances of individualism. Additionally, Prince, like Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, is more diverse than most because his imagery and symbolism are just as powerful articulating the sexual as well as the socio-political. And, when we add songs, such as "Old Friends 4 Sale," "Don’t Play Me," and "Reflection," Prince seems to be able to be both personal and creative with imagery. Of course, we each must define what is a well-constructed image or symbol, but it seems that Prince's lyrical mastery puts him with some of the best.