vainandy said:

He has sold out on many songs....Laydown, Ol Skool Company, Valentina, Mr. Goodnight, Incense and Candles, Illusion, Coma, Pimp, and Circumstance.....

Then, I'm sold because I love "Laydown," "Ol Skool Company," "Valentina,'" and "Illusion, Coma, Pimp, and Circumstance."

vainandy said: Yeah, but that was then and this is now. This is the shit hop era and shit hop is THE most ridiculous, dull, low class gutter trash, nontalented, thugged out, ignorant, and downright boring bunch of "nothing" genre in the history of recorded music. Real musicians should try to beat that bullshit rather than join it.

While I'm not the biggest fan of hip hop (I actually avoid it as much as I can), there is something to be said about being a complex enough thinker not to lump stereotypically all types of people into one bag. With that said, I don't know how Outkast, Common, Q-Tip, Chuck D, or even Eve can be considered "ignorant". Real "artists" are complex thinkers who know that with all genres there is more trash and gold, but real "artists" are willing to shovel through the trash and find the gold. (I'm amazed at the amount of subpar vault material that's celebrated as gold.) Finally, older people, like me, must realize that those of us who separated ourselves from younger people are as much the blame for what those younger people become, which makes us just as ignorant when we demonize them when we have not been very good role models or when we are not, again, complex enough thinkers not to lump all people into one bag.

novabrkr said:

I don't understand why you keep talking about "ship hop" when that era of midtempo hiphop dominating contemporary popular music is clearly over. I just get the impression that you haven't really paid attention to what is popular now, which of course, is not something I can blame you for lacking the motivation for.

I'll remember that the next time I hear it coming from the passing cars and all over the TV. I'll just have to remind myself that I'm not really hearing it and am just imagining that I'm hearing it.

1725topp said:

vainandy said:

He has sold out on many songs....Laydown, Ol Skool Company, Valentina, Mr. Goodnight, Incense and Candles, Illusion, Coma, Pimp, and Circumstance.....

Then, I'm sold because I love "Laydown," "Ol Skool Company," "Valentina,'" and "Illusion, Coma, Pimp, and Circumstance."

vainandy said: Yeah, but that was then and this is now. This is the shit hop era and shit hop is THE most ridiculous, dull, low class gutter trash, nontalented, thugged out, ignorant, and downright boring bunch of "nothing" genre in the history of recorded music. Real musicians should try to beat that bullshit rather than join it.

While I'm not the biggest fan of hip hop (I actually avoid it as much as I can), there is something to be said about being a complex enough thinker not to lump stereotypically all types of people into one bag. With that said, I don't know how Outkast, Common, Q-Tip, Chuck D, or even Eve can be considered "ignorant". Real "artists" are complex thinkers who know that with all genres there is more trash and gold, but real "artists" are willing to shovel through the trash and find the gold. (I'm amazed at the amount of subpar vault material that's celebrated as gold.) Finally, older people, like me, must realize that those of us who separated ourselves from younger people are as much the blame for what those younger people become, which makes us just as ignorant when we demonize them when we have not been very good role models or when we are not, again, complex enough thinkers not to lump all people into one bag.

I'm not lumping anyone into a bag. I've met some young people who aren't into that shit. Not many, but I have met some of them. And I'm not here to be a role model, nor do I listen to music to think. I listen to music to jam.

novabrkr said:

skywalker said:

That being the case, the introduction Tony M (as loved as he is) is simply an attempt to widen Prince's audience as well. As is working with other artists on Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic. And ya know what? I don't consider those "selling out" either.

Honestly the closest he came to selling out was Batman. Honestly though, it wasn't like MJ peddling Pepsi.

It seemed as if Prince DID love the Batman thing. Dressing up like half Batman/Joker, performing under a giant Batman logo, etc. He didn't have to do these things, it was just a superhero angle to his already existing thing. Furthermore, he still plays Batman songs to this day. Partyman, Scandalous, are Prince concert mainstays.

Good points about the Batman project.

Sometimes I've wondered why did he really do it, but it seemed like he was really into it himself and wanted to add his own vision what type of soundscapes should go with it.

I don't dislike the movie and I don't dislike the record, for that matter. It was just a bit odd for him to go from Lovesexy to that.

Agreed, but I think it's why he did it. You cannot really build upon the crecendo of Lovesexy. Might as well go sideways.

Vainandy-

You yourself have accused Prince of "going retro" and psychadelic 60's in 1985/86/87 and abandoning his R&B, funk audience.

Why is this the exploration of a new sound for Prince not selling out, but his nods to hip hop are?

I suspect that it is because you don't really like hip hop (shit hop?).

Most of you need to look up the definition of selling out.

Most of the discussion above has nothing to do with selling out.

vainandy said:

novabrkr said:

I don't understand why you keep talking about "ship hop" when that era of midtempo hiphop dominating contemporary popular music is clearly over. I just get the impression that you haven't really paid attention to what is popular now, which of course, is not something I can blame you for lacking the motivation for.

I'll remember that the next time I hear it coming from the passing cars and all over the TV. I'll just have to remind myself that I'm not really hearing it and am just imagining that I'm hearing it.

You might just live in an area where it's still popular.

Most of the stuff on charts is club based music these days. When you complain about these issues you just sound like your perception of popular music is still stuck in those times when you realized the music you yourself like is not around anymore.

skywalker said:

Vainandy-

You yourself have accused Prince of "going retro" and psychadelic 60's in 1985/86/87 and abandoning his R&B, funk audience.

Why is this the exploration of a new sound for Prince not selling out, but his nods to hip hop are?

I suspect that it is because you don't really like hip hop (shit hop?).

No, I was not pleased with him going retro after "Purple Rain" because when music as a whole is still good and everyone else is moving forward, I see no reason to go backwards. I wouldn't necessarily call what he did back then selling out though because he pissed just as many pop fans off as he pissed off R&B fans and I do have respect for him for doing as he pleased back then regardless if droves of other people didn't agree his direction, including myself. I did like the albums that followed though, just not as much as the previous ones. If I never liked them, I wouldn't still be a fan today.

Since shit hop has completely taken over R&B, I have gotten into much more types of music that I never was much into before because as long as I had great funk, I had no reason or desire to listen to anything else. I already had a ton of R&B records and when shit hop and neo stool completely took over R&B and house music turned to trance, then I started buying even more old R&B records that I didn't previously have and when I got damn near all the 1980s stuff I wanted, then I started getting 1970s stuff I didn't have already. Hell, I even got a little stuff from the 1960s too. Then when I branched off into rock and started getting into it also. Hell, I've even got some stuff as far back as The Andrew Sisters "Bugle Boy of Company B". I've even dabbled in a little country from the 1970s and 1980s, not a lot of it, but a little of it. Hell, you get desperate when there ain't no jams being made anymore. And Lord knows I have absolutely worn the old Prince albums out through the years so I've been getting a lot into his late 1980s albums lately and have not just been liking them, I've been absolutely loving them, including "Parade" and those damn strings. They definitely show the genius of Prince even moreso than the earlier albums. But then again, I'm 45 now, I'm not 18, 19, 20, etc. when those albums first came out plus with no good R&B these days from other artists, it makes you appreciate them more. Would I still have rather had more of his sound before 1985? You damn right I would. Yes, the late 1980s albums sound great but the earlier ones sound better.

As for do I really not like shit hop, it's not that I really don't like, I really hate it. I hate the fucking sound of it, I hate the fucking look of it, I hate the fucking attitude of it, I hate the fucking existence of it. I believe in living and let live but that bullshit has killed R&B completely off since it's the cheapest made form of music ever made other than acapella so nothing else gets a chance to come along and dethrone it. There used to be a time when you could put my radio dial on an R&B station and rip the dial off to where I can never change the station and I would have been happy with it. But these days, when I move my dial past an R&B station, I move it as quick as I can so I can't hear one single note of the bullshit that's on it. There's absolutely no jams anymore thanks to shit hop, I mean absolutely none unless you go "searching" for them like a damn fool and when there's no jams anymore, it's no longer a matter of live and let live, I want the genre that killed them gone so the last thing I believe in is selling out to it and joining it in even the smallest way.

2020 said:

Most of you need to look up the definition of selling out.

Most of the discussion above has nothing to do with selling out.

Yep.

skywalker said:

Vainandy-

You yourself have accused Prince of "going retro" and psychadelic 60's in 1985/86/87 and abandoning his R&B, funk audience.

Why is this the exploration of a new sound for Prince not selling out, but his nods to hip hop are?

I suspect that it is because you don't really like hip hop (shit hop?).

I'm not 100% what a sell-out in this situation is, so I'm using my own defination , which is when a person wants to achieve sales in a market or demographic and is willing to resort to a compromised vision to achieve that.

When he wrote Purple Rain (the entire album), this may well have been selling out. Prince was deliberately trying to court a white audience and achieve global recognition and status.

He did it again for D&P, in which he delivered a heavily hip-hop infused album.

So, in a sense, Prince has 'sold out' several times if you look it that way. The difference is that he just did it so much better with Purple Rain. He introduced somethig that was really quite new sounding--as Miles Davis puts it, not innovationg but a hybrid sound not done before on a large scale. Nothing out there sounds like Purple Rain. Nothing out there sounds like Parade, etc.

D&P is an awkward album filled with filler tracks that achieved just the right sound in the 90s to give Prince a badly needed hit album. The problem is that he just doesn't sound comfortable in it--it sounds just...misfired? A few tracks are really good, but on a Prince album, we had grown to expect most of the tracks to be really good.

Prince stepped up his game with the symbol album introducing all sorts of strange things mixed with standard sounds ending with a very messy, confusing, but enjoyable album.

I think his most pure albums that aren't "sellouts" are probably:

1. ATWIAD

2. PARADE

3. LoveSexy

4. The Rainbow children

5. The Truth

Of course, my definition is REALLY narrow and doesn't take into account his actual behavior during these episodes. I mean, for example, is it really selling out if he releases an album like Batman, but doesn't really bother promoting it. Or an album like D&P and immediately after his tour is over, releases before anyone has time to take a breath?

He apparently didn't care that much about album sales--any other artist would have tried to milk each record for far longer and with more self-promotion. Prince just blazed through the 80s and much of the 90s throwing all sorts of shit at us at rapid fire rate.

I have no clue what I'm saying.

imago said:

skywalker said:

Vainandy-

You yourself have accused Prince of "going retro" and psychadelic 60's in 1985/86/87 and abandoning his R&B, funk audience.

Why is this the exploration of a new sound for Prince not selling out, but his nods to hip hop are?

I suspect that it is because you don't really like hip hop (shit hop?).

I'm not 100% what a sell-out in this situation is, so I'm using my own defination , which is when a person wants to achieve sales in a market or demographic and is willing to resort to a compromised vision to achieve that.

My only contention with this definition, is how do you know when Prince has compromised his vision? How do you/we know what his original vision is? Only he does, right?

Maybe Jughead was always made to be Jughead? Know what I mean?

skywalker said:

imago said:

I'm not 100% what a sell-out in this situation is, so I'm using my own defination , which is when a person wants to achieve sales in a market or demographic and is willing to resort to a compromised vision to achieve that.

My only contention with this definition, is how do you know when Prince has compromised his vision? How do you/we know what his original vision is? Only he does, right?

Maybe Jughead was always made to be Jughead? Know what I mean?

yeah, it's a tough one because both side of the fence rely on a dose of conjecture.

The most that can be said is how derivative the music sounds. His first album, For You, sounded REALLY copy-cat-like to me. It was firmly a disco-funk album. It wasn't until Dirty Mind that I really got the sense that Prince was something of an original. And PR, ATWIAD, LoveSexy don't sound derivative even though he has elements of stuff he obvious got from other folks. It sounds fresh.

Prince more times than not misfires with hip hop though. He just ends up sounding so corny and like he's following a trend that way.

But yeah, what if Jughead was always meant to be jughead. Certain this would be equally sad, but wouldn't indicate selling out.

vainandy said:

1725topp said:

While I'm not the biggest fan of hip hop (I actually avoid it as much as I can), there is something to be said about being a complex enough thinker not to lump stereotypically all types of people into one bag. With that said, I don't know how Outkast, Common, Q-Tip, Chuck D, or even Eve can be considered "ignorant". Real "artists" are complex thinkers who know that with all genres there is more trash and gold, but real "artists" are willing to shovel through the trash and find the gold. (I'm amazed at the amount of subpar vault material that's celebrated as gold.) Finally, older people, like me, must realize that those of us who separated ourselves from younger people are as much the blame for what those younger people become, which makes us just as ignorant when we demonize them when we have not been very good role models or when we are not, again, complex enough thinkers not to lump all people into one bag.

I'm not lumping anyone into a bag. I've met some young people who aren't into that shit. Not many, but I have met some of them. And I'm not here to be a role model, nor do I listen to music to think. I listen to music to jam.

Actually you did lump an entire group/class/segment of people into a bag when you stated "This is the shit hop era and shit hop is THE most ridiculous, dull, low class gutter trash, nontalented, thugged out, ignorant, and downright boring bunch of ‘nothing’ genre in the history of recorded music," implying that anyone creating or enjoying hip hop is "gutter trash, nontalented," etc. That is a sweeping, stereotypical statement. Secondly, as long as you admit that you are, based on your comments of not being a role model, a selfish and unconcerned person when it comes to "certain" types of people, then you understand that it is hypocritical to criticize someone else for being selfish and unconcerned, which is, ultimately, what your comments suggest of anyone who creates or enjoys hip hop. Finally, you are certainly being hypocritical when you state that you “do not listen to music to think” but “to jam” because if it's just about "jammin'," then what makes one "groove" or "riff" or "beat" more intelligent or more thuggish than another? I can understand if something is funkier, but more thuggish? It's like when jazz was considered too ghetto and the music of druggies and criminals. Your comments about hip hop are eerily similar and seem to come from a subjectively stereotypical place because they are so sweeping and overly general.

1725topp said:

vainandy said:

I'm not lumping anyone into a bag. I've met some young people who aren't into that shit. Not many, but I have met some of them. And I'm not here to be a role model, nor do I listen to music to think. I listen to music to jam.

Actually you did lump an entire group/class/segment of people into a bag when you stated "This is the shit hop era and shit hop is THE most ridiculous, dull, low class gutter trash, nontalented, thugged out, ignorant, and downright boring bunch of ‘nothing’ genre in the history of recorded music," implying that anyone creating or enjoying hip hop is "gutter trash, nontalented," etc. That is a sweeping, stereotypical statement. Secondly, as long as you admit that you are, based on your comments of not being a role model, a selfish and unconcerned person when it comes to "certain" types of people, then you understand that it is hypocritical to criticize someone else for being selfish and unconcerned, which is, ultimately, what your comments suggest of anyone who creates or enjoys hip hop. Finally, you are certainly being hypocritical when you state that you “do not listen to music to think” but “to jam” because if it's just about "jammin'," then what makes one "groove" or "riff" or "beat" more intelligent or more thuggish than another? I can understand if something is funkier, but more thuggish? It's like when jazz was considered too ghetto and the music of druggies and criminals. Your comments about hip hop are eerily similar and seem to come from a subjectively stereotypical place because they are so sweeping and overly general.

Which is exactly why I said "shit hop" instead of "hip hop" because I used to love a lot of hip hop in the early 1980s when it was a fun, funky, danceable genre of music, much of which was original songs made from the ground up from scratch. Go back and look at any of my comments. Very rarely have you seen me type "hip hop" when I have shit on shit hop up, down, and sideways. I always use "shit hop" instead to prevent that arguement.

SuperSoulFighter said:

I agree with Andy. Can't stand that shit hop either. It even stopped me from buying Bootsy Collins' new albums. (Another "albums suck, concerts rule!" artist.) And yes, it also made me go back in time and discover the old records. The blues, in my case. Started digging folks like Kokomo Arnold and Charley Patton... [Edited 2/27/13 10:50am]

I've gotten a lot more into blues than I used to be also. None of that "old man sitting on a front porch playing a guitar" type blues because I don't want to bore and depress the hell out of myself. The only song in that style blues I can get into is Lightnin' Hopkins "Ooooooooooooh Mr. Charlie, you know your rolling mill is burning down" and I usually like to play that one because it trips folks out. I got more into the stuff that I grew up with like ZZ Hill, Bobby Rush, KoKo Taylor, Lattimore, BB King, Little Milton, Johnnie Taylor, and my favorite, Denise LaSalle. I love that old foul mouthed nasty talking heffer.

A lot of folks in my area that used to previously be into R&B are now into blues only and a lot of them have never even heard of any of these current R&B artists these days except through their kids. A lot of the blues is made here locally so there is a blues scene here and I applaud those who just abandoned listening to current R&B altogether and not settling for the genre being worse than what it used to be. As for me though, I haven't heard much of the new blues since my mother died in 2007. She and her crowd were heavily into it so I was exposed to a lot of it but the newer blues all sounds alike to me. Since most of it is locally made, I'm wondering if they all have the some producers or something.

vainandy said:

1725topp said:

Actually you did lump an entire group/class/segment of people into a bag when you stated "This is the shit hop era and shit hop is THE most ridiculous, dull, low class gutter trash, nontalented, thugged out, ignorant, and downright boring bunch of ‘nothing’ genre in the history of recorded music," implying that anyone creating or enjoying hip hop is "gutter trash, nontalented," etc. That is a sweeping, stereotypical statement. Secondly, as long as you admit that you are, based on your comments of not being a role model, a selfish and unconcerned person when it comes to "certain" types of people, then you understand that it is hypocritical to criticize someone else for being selfish and unconcerned, which is, ultimately, what your comments suggest of anyone who creates or enjoys hip hop. Finally, you are certainly being hypocritical when you state that you “do not listen to music to think” but “to jam” because if it's just about "jammin'," then what makes one "groove" or "riff" or "beat" more intelligent or more thuggish than another? I can understand if something is funkier, but more thuggish? It's like when jazz was considered too ghetto and the music of druggies and criminals. Your comments about hip hop are eerily similar and seem to come from a subjectively stereotypical place because they are so sweeping and overly general.

Which is exactly why I said "shit hop" instead of "hip hop" because I used to love a lot of hip hop in the early 1980s when it was a fun, funky, danceable genre of music, much of which was original songs made from the ground up from scratch. Go back and look at any of my comments. Very rarely have you seen me type "hip hop" when I have shit on shit hop up, down, and sideways. I always use "shit hop" instead to prevent that arguement.

Yes, but when you state "Real musicians should try to beat that bullshit rather than join it," you are lumping the people with whom Prince has worked into the category of "shit hop." And while I don't hate Tony M nearly as much as most on this site, I also don't consider people like Chuck D., Eve, Q-Tip, or even Outkast who have had conversations with Prince about music to be "bullshit" that must be "beat." And while you may not have intended to do so, your comment does lump those particular artists into the category of "shit hop" because it does not acknowledge that Prince has attempted to seek the high watermark of the genre in most cases. Yet, even today, there are a few high watermark hip hop artists who are doing some interesting things lyrically. Now, I don't know if they would add anything to Prince's legacy/body of work because, again, I'm just not a big hip hop fan, but I think that he could make a good (danceable and/or intellectually stimulating) record with them.

*

Also, referring to your discussion of the blues, being from Mississippi as well we could discuss the manner in which many younger African Americans are making what's called southern soul, which is a blend, of course, of traditional blues and up-tempo R&B, but as with all genres the divisions eventually get murky and based on our subjective tastes. I can tell you that the similar sound or that many of them are gravitating toward southern soul has more to do with younger artists trying to blend the old with the new than with them all having the same producer. I am amazed when I walk into a new place like the Penguin located near JSU or at any other place, and there are youngsters in their twenties playing Prince, BB King, Bobby “Blue” Bland, any number of Seventies Funk jams, and mixing it with riffs, chants, and call and response from hip hop songs. Of course, local/regional art is always more inventive and cosmopolitan than mainstream made-for-radio Top 40, and so these various threads of southern soul, which is something a bit more raw, groove driven, and instrumentally diverse than neo-soul, will never see the light of day past the local/regional venues.

1725topp said:

vainandy said:

Which is exactly why I said "shit hop" instead of "hip hop" because I used to love a lot of hip hop in the early 1980s when it was a fun, funky, danceable genre of music, much of which was original songs made from the ground up from scratch. Go back and look at any of my comments. Very rarely have you seen me type "hip hop" when I have shit on shit hop up, down, and sideways. I always use "shit hop" instead to prevent that arguement.

Yes, but when you state "Real musicians should try to beat that bullshit rather than join it," you are lumping the people with whom Prince has worked into the category of "shit hop." And while I don't hate Tony M nearly as much as most on this site, I also don't consider people like Chuck D., Eve, Q-Tip, or even Outkast who have had conversations with Prince about music to be "bullshit" that must be "beat." And while you may not have intended to do so, your comment does lump those particular artists into the category of "shit hop" because it does not acknowledge that Prince has attempted to seek the high watermark of the genre in most cases. Yet, even today, there are a few high watermark hip hop artists who are doing some interesting things lyrically. Now, I don't know if they would add anything to Prince's legacy/body of work because, again, I'm just not a big hip hop fan, but I think that he could make a good (danceable and/or intellectually stimulating) record with them.

*

Also, referring to your discussion of the blues, being from Mississippi as well we could discuss the manner in which many younger African Americans are making what's called southern soul, which is a blend, of course, of traditional blues and up-tempo R&B, but as with all genres the divisions eventually get murky and based on our subjective tastes. I can tell you that the similar sound or that many of them are gravitating toward southern soul has more to do with younger artists trying to blend the old with the new than with them all having the same producer. I am amazed when I walk into a new place like the Penguin located near JSU or at any other place, and there are youngsters in their twenties playing Prince, BB King, Bobby “Blue” Bland, any number of Seventies Funk jams, and mixing it with riffs, chants, and call and response from hip hop songs. Of course, local/regional art is always more inventive and cosmopolitan than mainstream made-for-radio Top 40, and so these various threads of southern soul, which is something a bit more raw, groove driven, and instrumentally diverse than neo-soul, will never see the light of day past the local/regional venues.

Oh Lord, the little bit of stuff I've heard from them is about as dull as a Lawrence Welk or Slim Whitman record. If it ain't somebody like Egyptian Lover, Soul Sonic Force, Newcleus, Twilight 22, Pretty Tony and Freestyle, Run DMC, Whodini, Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, LA Dream Team, etc., they bore the hell out of me. I could care less than a hill of beans about what someone can do lyrically. Lyrics don't give my feet and ass a mind of it's own before my brain has a chance to catch up with it, music does. Now, if somebody wants to record something lyrically positive or socially concious, or whatever else they want to call it, over some actual music that's not boring as hell, that's fine. But if I'm concerned with subject matter, I'll watch the news, a movie, read an article, listen to a lecture, etc. about it.

When it comes to music, I have one purpose for it and that purpose is to get off and by getting off, I mean either on the dancefloor or in the bedroom. As for music to simply sit and listen and "chill" to, Andy don't chill. Chilling is boring. I like to be in the middle and center of shit at all times, talking shit, partying, and having a good time. Andy don't like to be bored and "chilling" is boring as hell.

rdhull said:

herb4 said:

The Batman soundtrack would like a word. I don't hold it against him for doing it but the whole project reeked of a cash grab, then as well as now.

stuff

Come on herb..dont make me have to explain it in detail. Cant you just take my word for it? You know me, I know you, we been around a while.

That's why your reply struck me as odd. Of all the things Prince has done that could be consider "sell outs" (and I don't really believe in the term, BTW), 1999 and and PR hardly qualify. If you're saying he was trying to "cross over" to white audiences, then you could say the same thing about Prince, Controversy and Dirty Mind to a certain extent, but I still don't buy it. Those records had "radio friendly" and "crossover" stuff on them, but none of it was forced.

Batman and Diamonds & Pearls would make better arguments. Purple Rain and 1999? Those were just maturations of the sound he was already building and struck lightening at just the right time; when MTV, androgyny and the lines between funk, disco, punk and rock were being challenged. They're records are more or less artistically pure. He even followed his largest commercial succes with probably his least commercial album, ATWIAD. I'm not sure what you're on about, RDH, but I'm genuinely curious why you think those records compromised his artistic integrity.

It sounds like you're just saying "because it was popular, it's a sell out", but that's not always true (Blood Sugar Sex Magic, Ten, Nevermind, Thriller, Stop Making Sense, Fear of a Black Planet, And Justice For All, etc.). Sometimes it's just the right record at the right time and popular taste matches up with certain artists. That's what PR and 1999 were.

Prince has lived in a house of his own from the start of his career.

How did he pay for it? Did he "sell out" or simply inheret them?

[Edited 2/27/13 15:52pm]

Plus, I get tired of fans of artists and musicians decrying their idols for being "sell outs". Unless any one of us has been at the position, we should all just kindly fuck off. How many of us "sell out" every day? Working for a shitty bank, horrible medical insurance company, some god-awful chain restaurant or shilling for some crappy marketing company?

I do graphic design for a living and have chosen to design things for Republican candidates running for office, churches I don't belong to, cheesy car lots, certain oil companies, absitnence only organizations, D.A.R.E., and all sorts of of things I personally and philosophically disagree with and don't subscribe to. If some large publishing house or fast food company wanted to pay ME half a million bucks for a logo or an advertising campaign and I turned it down on the basis of artistic integrity, then I can talk shit about selling out.

Hasn't happened yet, but I'm looking forward to the opportunity.

"Tried to sell my soul, but no one's buying." - Everlast

I took a significantly long break from Prince's music at one point. I didn't follow what he was up to nor buy any albums. When I got back into him, the first album I bought to start catching up was Rave Unto..., and I remember being a bit surprised by (what I considered to be) the obvious pandering and 'selling out' in the music on that album.

Three words.......................... DIAMONDS AND PEARLS.

It was made and directed for the "pop"ular crowd.

The money and popularity was needed at the time, and it succeeded.

Even the tour followed suit.

Hence the downfall that followed.

herb4 said:

Plus, I get tired of fans of artists and musicians decrying their idols for being "sell outs". Unless any one of us has been at the position, we should all just kindly fuck off. How many of us "sell out" every day? Working for a shitty bank, horrible medical insurance company, some god-awful chain restaurant or shilling for some crappy marketing company?

I do graphic design for a living and have chosen to design things for Republican candidates running for office, churches I don't belong to, cheesy car lots, certain oil companies, absitnence only organizations, D.A.R.E., and all sorts of of things I personally and philosophically disagree with and don't subscribe to. If some large publishing house or fast food company wanted to pay ME half a million bucks for a logo or an advertising campaign and I turned it down on the basis of artistic integrity, then I can talk shit about selling out.

Hasn't happened yet, but I'm looking forward to the opportunity.

"Tried to sell my soul, but no one's buying." - Everlast

Many of the greatest artists in history have been motivated by cash. Think Durer. He rambled on about making money in his letters. This idea of the pure artist who eschews gold seems like a recent invention. Prince seems often, and most endearingly so, financially unwise. Sell-out? Wish he would sell himself more. I am a ready buyer.

callimnate said:

Three words.......................... DIAMONDS AND PEARLS.

It was made and directed for the "pop"ular crowd.

The money and popularity was needed at the time, and it succeeded.

Even the tour followed suit.

Again, is this the time that Prince first did something like this in his career? Not by a long shot. As someone said, is Prince making music aimed at the "mainstream" or "pop"ular crowd selling out? If so then he sold out almost right off the bat in his career.

motherfunka said:

PUNCTUATION...it's your friend!

Heckling is everyone's friend til they form an opinion. Sell whatever you want Prince sir, I'll buy it. No more Bambi cuz I remember hearing a few of your old ladies didn't think you were all that .

vainandy said:

1725topp said:

Yes, but when you state "Real musicians should try to beat that bullshit rather than join it," you are lumping the people with whom Prince has worked into the category of "shit hop." And while I don't hate Tony M nearly as much as most on this site, I also don't consider people like Chuck D., Eve, Q-Tip, or even Outkast who have had conversations with Prince about music to be "bullshit" that must be "beat." And while you may not have intended to do so, your comment does lump those particular artists into the category of "shit hop" because it does not acknowledge that Prince has attempted to seek the high watermark of the genre in most cases. Yet, even today, there are a few high watermark hip hop artists who are doing some interesting things lyrically. Now, I don't know if they would add anything to Prince's legacy/body of work because, again, I'm just not a big hip hop fan, but I think that he could make a good (danceable and/or intellectually stimulating) record with them.

*

Also, referring to your discussion of the blues, being from Mississippi as well we could discuss the manner in which many younger African Americans are making what's called southern soul, which is a blend, of course, of traditional blues and up-tempo R&B, but as with all genres the divisions eventually get murky and based on our subjective tastes. I can tell you that the similar sound or that many of them are gravitating toward southern soul has more to do with younger artists trying to blend the old with the new than with them all having the same producer. I am amazed when I walk into a new place like the Penguin located near JSU or at any other place, and there are youngsters in their twenties playing Prince, BB King, Bobby “Blue” Bland, any number of Seventies Funk jams, and mixing it with riffs, chants, and call and response from hip hop songs. Of course, local/regional art is always more inventive and cosmopolitan than mainstream made-for-radio Top 40, and so these various threads of southern soul, which is something a bit more raw, groove driven, and instrumentally diverse than neo-soul, will never see the light of day past the local/regional venues.

Oh Lord, the little bit of stuff I've heard from them is about as dull as a Lawrence Welk or Slim Whitman record. If it ain't somebody like Egyptian Lover, Soul Sonic Force, Newcleus, Twilight 22, Pretty Tony and Freestyle, Run DMC, Whodini, Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, LA Dream Team, etc., they bore the hell out of me. I could care less than a hill of beans about what someone can do lyrically. Lyrics don't give my feet and ass a mind of it's own before my brain has a chance to catch up with it, music does. Now, if somebody wants to record something lyrically positive or socially concious, or whatever else they want to call it, over some actual music that's not boring as hell, that's fine. But if I'm concerned with subject matter, I'll watch the news, a movie, read an article, listen to a lecture, etc. about it.

When it comes to music, I have one purpose for it and that purpose is to get off and by getting off, I mean either on the dancefloor or in the bedroom. As for music to simply sit and listen and "chill" to, Andy don't chill. Chilling is boring. I like to be in the middle and center of shit at all times, talking shit, partying, and having a good time. Andy don't like to be bored and "chilling" is boring as hell.

Okay, now that I understand your purpose for listening to music, I understand from where you are coming, but it still becomes a bit...myopic or overly subjective for you to bash Prince songs, such as "....Laydown, Ol Skool Company, Valentina, Mr. Goodnight, Incense and Candles, Illusion, Coma, Pimp, and Circumstance.....," when the music and acts that you mention, such as “Egyptian Lover”, “Soul Sonic Force”, and LA Dream Team were things that I viewed as juvenile by the time I was in high school. Now, Run DMC, Whodini, and Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, I'll give you them, but “Egyptian Lover” and “Soul Sonic Force”, really??? I mean I liked them when I was in elementary, but they couldn't compare to the weakest Prince jam. Again, we have two totally different reasons for engaging music, and I acknowledge that, but to call those Prince songs boring and celebrate "Egyptian Lover" and "Soul Sonic Force" is just something I can't fathom, but, as you stated, you feel the same about "Ol Skool Company," which I think crushes much of what you listed. But, again, we are now discussing taste, and we can't argue personal taste.

If you define selling out as copying a popular trend then yes he's done that. With Rave he copied the Santanna "Supernatural" forumula by teaming up with Clive Davis & having an album littered with guest stars. We all know how that turned out.

To his credit I think he used his pop songs to get people to buy his albums so they could hear his experiments ala Walk Don't Walk, Strange But True, Freaks on This Side etc.

The early '90s is the only period I can really think of. The dude who rapped on Sexy MF was not coming from the same point of view as the due who "rapped" on Dead On It a few years prior. Opinions can change though, right?

skywalker said: