Blue Tuesday 12.1.1987

At about 1:30am Karen Krattinger received a strange phone call. Speaking with uncharacteristic emotion, Prince apologized for having been so hard on her, said he had trouble expressing his feelings, and that he loved her.

At about the same time that night, Susan Rogers also got a phone call from Prince, asking her to come to Paisley Park. After four years as Prince's engineer, she had resigned that post shortly after the completion of the Black Album i October 1987. But she agreed to go to the studio. Arriving in the rehearsal room, she found it dark, save for a few red candles that cast ominous shadows across the walls. Out of the gloom she heard a woman's voice.

"Are you looking for Prince?"
Rogers, who would later learn this was Chavez, answered, "Yes."
"Well, he's here somewhere," Chavez replied.
Abruptly, Prince emerged out of the darkness, looking unlike she had ever seen him before. "I'm certain he was high," Rogers said. "His pupils were really dilated. He looked like he was tripping."
As he had with Krattinger, Prince struggled to connect emotionally with Rogers. "I just want to know one thing. Do you still love me?" Rogers, startled, said she did, and that she knew he loved her.
"Will you stay?" Prince asked.
"No, I won't," she said, and left the complex.

Excellent topic...very interesting. Never thought of slow love as a vault track, but not entirely surprised to find out so.

OldFriends4Sale said:

BobGeorge909 said:

OldFriends4Sale said: Somehow...after u hear a story...u can hear it in the song...like the piano, horns, and vocals all in different rooms....I swear I can hear it. I know I can't........but I just know I can too. I can feel the sweat in the recording van when I listen to Purple Rain....feel the cold in the wherehouse when I hear Let's Go Crazy. ...u know...

Yes, I know what you mean

That's why I have no problem listening to some older outtakes that the quality isn't so good, because it kinda puts me in a time frame, I can smell a basement studio or a 1970's studio,

You can smell the beer people are drinking at the impromptu 1stAvenue shows,

And the smoke while standing on sticky floors.

paulludvig said:

djThunderfunk said:

How much time have you spent in a recording studio collaborating to create albums? Your statement shows your lack of knowledge about the subject you speak of.

Well, ok. But I think she tries to create the impression that she was more important than she really was. I'm amazed that people here on the org don't realize that one has to be critical when assessing the accuracy of historical information. People don't have perfect memory, and they are not objective witnesses.

Anyway - I think this quote from the same interview is telling: Prince asked me what I thought [about If I was your Gilfriend]–and that’s not something that he normally did–

As a trained audio engineer, who has studied all the liner notes and information in The Vault (the book), I believe she WAS an important partner in the creative process. Certainly the music she recorded has a more interesting soundcape than those she did not.

Trust this: an audio engineer has a lot to do with how the artists vision sounds on the final product. The results will vary based on the needs of the artist and the talent of the engineer. In the case of the music she recorded for Prince, she is an important element.

honer said:

Its "interesting" that since the surge of mass market high end headphones has taken place, people are now all of a sudden pro sound engineers!

Its only recently have I heard ANYONE on here or anywhere else moaning about clipping, loss, eq blah blah blah. I'd wager the majority of peope dont know fuck all about what should and shouldnt sound nice. In the 80's and 90's you were happy if it was clear and loud now all of a sudden you're all bloody audiophiles.

Is anyone actually listening to Prince on a nice audio system or some proper headphones and has been doing so for more than 6 months ago when you bought some Beats headphones for your iphone?

Anyway stop being gay and just enjoy the music.

*awaits obvious comebacks from the use of the word gay*

[Edited 2/26/13 2:32am]

I attended The Recording Workshop in Chillicothe, OH. You?

I've been complaining about the "loudness wars" for about 15 years. I listen to music on my 800W Peavy sound system... No "Beats".

paulludvig said:

"People have assumed that because these records were successful that we took the same degree and care with the technique as we did with the art and that’s completely false. I mean, technically, sonically these records aren’t great. [...] Our records sounded alright, their form served the function, but what was great about it and what people were buying was not the sonic qualities. P

[...]

“Purple Rain” was a core song on the album Purple Rain, and of course “Sign O’ The Times” was one of the fundamental songs for that album. So when we would sequence a record sometimes we’d take our core songs and a few other tracks and we would sequence them together just to hear how the album was going to sound. If there was something missing, if there needed to be a song that would transition between two of the core or the more important songs, Prince would actually write something specifically to serve in the sequence. So in that sense there were the most important songs and then there were the album cuts–the things that were almost interludes on the record. So the songs were never intended to be singles or even have any important messag.[..] That’s what “Play In The Sunshine” was; it was just a bridge to get us out of “Sign O’ The Times” and into the rest of the record. “Slow Love” was another one of those…that was an old one from the vault."

Why does she use words like "we", "our" and "us" as much as she does? You almost get the feeling that she thinks she was an important partner in the creative process. Together with her selective memory and nonsensical statements, she comes across as a pretty unreliable source.

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

rdhull said:

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

In what way? Examples?

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

In what way? Examples?

Comfortability(is that a word?)..his affinity for females as workmates..these things create atmospheres to work in. As well as recording on th e fly as has been mentioned in the past..creating recording set ups with the equipment that were quite unconventional. A lot of it is in DMSR etc.

rdhull said:

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

Couldn't you say that about any person who happened to be around?

NuPwrSoul said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, I know what you mean

That's why I have no problem listening to some older outtakes that the quality isn't so good, because it kinda puts me in a time frame, I can smell a basement studio or a 1970's studio,

You can smell the beer people are drinking at the impromptu 1stAvenue shows,

And the smoke while standing on sticky floors.

LOL yes, that's the good stuff, sticky spilled soda, split material on the bar stool, a little static from the equipment, Prince counting out before they start

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

Couldn't you say that about any person who happened to be around?

No. I just explained what the difference was.

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

Susan Rogers is in many aspects, just as important to the golden era of Prince music as Wendy and Lisa were. Prince created some of those songs because it was her as the engineer etc...her ideas for recording as well as his comfort level . He wasnt going to create some The Beautiful Ones with lets say some Tom Smith as engineer. She was more influential to the music than some give her credit for.

Couldn't you say that about any person who happened to be around?

No, Prince would call her all times of night, and she would be right there with Prince

like Rdhull said, his comfort level with her being a woman was probably deeper than with the other guys.

I would love to hear her take on some of the Black album recordings

rdhull said:

paulludvig said:

Couldn't you say that about any person who happened to be around?

No. I just explained what the difference was.

Yes, by referring to the imaginary Tom Smith

Let's take Wally and Brooks instead. Prince used to hang out with them alot. Would you give them credit for Prince's sound in the late 80's just because Prince was comfortable with having them around?

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

No. I just explained what the difference was.

Yes, by referring to the imaginary Tom Smith

Let's take Wally and Brooks instead. Prince used to hang out with them alot. Would you give them credit for Prince's sound in the late 80's just because Prince was comfortable with having them around?

Wally and Brooks were sound engineers? GTFOOHWTBS

Genesia said:

paulludvig said:

Yes, by referring to the imaginary Tom Smith

Let's take Wally and Brooks instead. Prince used to hang out with them alot. Would you give them credit for Prince's sound in the late 80's just because Prince was comfortable with having them around?

Wally and Brooks were sound engineers? GTFOOHWTBS

Rhull argues that Rogers influenced Prince's music by making him comfortable (what he calls "Comfortability"). Well, in that case the credit should be extended to all the people he has been comfortable around throughout his career, or has helped create a certain (creative) atmosphere.

paulludvig said:

Genesia said:

Wally and Brooks were sound engineers? GTFOOHWTBS

Rhull argues that Rogers influenced Prince's music by making him comfortable (what he calls "Comfortability"). Well, in that case the credit should be extended to all the people he has been comfortable around throughout his career, or has helped create a certain (creative) atmosphere.

Only if you believe that reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

Genesia said:

paulludvig said:

Rhull argues that Rogers influenced Prince's music by making him comfortable (what he calls "Comfortability"). Well, in that case the credit should be extended to all the people he has been comfortable around throughout his career, or has helped create a certain (creative) atmosphere.

Only if you believe that reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

paulludvig said:

Genesia said:

Only if you believe that reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

It's a logical fallacy.

Genesia said:

paulludvig said:

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument.

It's a logical fallacy.

Not as long as it builds on assertions which are actually present in the argument it is deconstructing.

paulludvig said:

Genesia said:

It's a logical fallacy.

Not as long as it builds on assertions which are actually present in the argument it is deconstructing.

Your assertion is not present in RD's argument. You presented a straw man, then segued to reductio ad absurdum.

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

No. I just explained what the difference was.

Yes, by referring to the imaginary Tom Smith

Let's take Wally and Brooks instead. Prince used to hang out with them alot. Would you give them credit for Prince's sound in the late 80's just because Prince was comfortable with having them around?

I used Tom Smith as an example to explain my meaning. Its really not that difficult to ascertain but if I must:

I would not give them credit exactly for their sound no. But for the raucous atmosphere in the expanded Revolution years, yes. I.E., stage show and such.

I had such a debate ages ago here...when the org used to be good..regarding DMSR's reporting of Dr. Finks comments about Prince wanting to hang with his 'black buddies' rather than the Revolution core members and how that was semi racist etc. You see, him hanging around his hometowen buddies (you call them bodyguards but he calls them his friends-Hello) at that time aided in the back n forth between them in the stage show, the dances and such. You see, the ethereal b.s. left and the show got to the gutbucket. Dont ask me to explain all that because if you dont know, well, you just wont ever know.

Now regarding the sound..no, that was more the music players who were influential..and anyone worth their salt knows that Prince is more comfortable with the ladies than yall ashy assed males. And that goes for white dudes too becasue yall DO get ashy..I've seen yall's elbows..gruff as hell.

So even though his supposed greatest self revealing of pain song, Wally, used lyrics that were as of a conversation with Wallace, disucssing the pain and sorrow of his love being gone, like fellas tend to do with each other when they go out drinking and such, it was still recorded with Susan Rogers at the helm...her presence allowing him to display his tenderness in the studio, hence into the song.

.

[Edited 2/26/13 11:09am]

Genesia said:

paulludvig said:

Not as long as it builds on assertions which are actually present in the argument it is deconstructing.

Your assertion is not present in RD's argument. You presented a straw man, then segued to reductio ad absurdum.

That's a plaugue with most of these yahoos here now. These straw man arguments just becasue they dont want to be wrong etc. Ill even concede props to kfoolmusico as he never really has to go down that route (yet).

doubt it. he did care about having a shitton versions of 1 song over long periods of time .

Genesia said:

paulludvig said:

Not as long as it builds on assertions which are actually present in the argument it is deconstructing.

Your assertion is not present in RD's argument. You presented a straw man, then segued to reductio ad absurdum.

Well, it is. Or rather was. RD has expanded his ideas in his post above, and it makes more sense now (even though I still disagree with him )

So, everminnd.

Chapter 9 Alone:Wally
The Rise & Fall of Prince


The dispute over Crystal Ball left Prince frustrated & depressed.
And to make matters worse, his relationship with Susannah Melvoin was spinning out of control for the last time.
In the months since the couple had concluded their brief attempt at cohabitation in Prince's Chanhassan home, their fighting had continued taking an emotional toll on the both of them. In December 1986, Susannah finally decided she had had enough; she packed her things and returned to Los Angeles San Fernando Valley, joining Lisa & Wendy
...

One evening shortly after Sussanah's departure, Susan Rogers could tell something was very wrong when Prince came down to the basement studio. Looking disconsolate and barely speaking, he began constructing a song around a meloncholy piano pattern. His spoken lyrics portrayed a fictional dialogue between himself and Wally Safford, a dancer in the band. Sounding sad and lost, Prince asks Wally to borrow $50 and some sunglasses so he can impress his lover, but then changes his mind and returns the items telling Wally that since he is alone now, he has no one to spend the money on. Prince was accompanied only by piano throught the verse, but guitar bass and drums enter as the song built to a chorus on which he sings the phrase "o-ma-la-di-da"


Watching Prince construct the song which he called "Wally", Rogers was stunned by the honest emotion and wistfull resignation it conveyed. She saw the song both as a farewell to Susannah and a means of expelling the poison of failed relationship.

"Do you know that malady means sickness, illness in French?" Prince asked Rogers. Refering to the phrase he sings in the chorus. "It's almost like the word melody, isn't it?" Prince who rarely exposed his inner feelings, even in his music, was groping for a metaphor that would convey his feeling of loss. Rogers felt it was a turning point in his songwriting.

But as the session continued, Prince started to distance himself from the creation. He added extraneous instruments to diminished the songs clarity. A percussion part that cluttered the verse, detracting from the lyrics.

Don't you think it was better before, Prince?" Rogers said. "Maybe we should stop"
He ignored her, adding the synthizer riff. Soon it became clear to her: He was intentionally destroying the song. After larding the piece with additional instruments, he finally spoke. "Now put all 24 Channels on record and erase it." he told Rogers

"No, you can't do this!" Rogers said dismayed by the prospect of losing the statement at the core of the song.

"If you don't I will," Prince responded
Rogers stood her ground, and Prince was forced to operate the soundboard himself, as he destroyed his own music.

"Wally" like his relationship with Susannah, Wendy & Lisa involved more emotional intensity than Prince was willing to accept. "I thought it was the greatest thing he had ever done" says Rogers. I had waited years to hear a Prince song like this. I ached for him to be this honest.

Yet Princes refusal to explore his feelings was not altogether surprising. Rogers had discussed the topic of depression with him and found Prince contemptuous of the notion.
"He thought it was practically a sin to be depressed" she remembered. Many other associates have observed that Prince -not only in his relationships, but even in his music -is cryptic and unrevealing of his deepest feelings. "His music is very passionate, but he doesn't let himself open up emotionally" observed Marylou Badeaux. "

...

Eddie M. Jill Jones, engineer Susan Rogers & Miko Weaver
this is like 83/84

OldFriends4Sale said:

Chapter 9 Alone:Wally
The Rise & Fall of Prince


The dispute over Crystal Ball left Prince frustrated & depressed.
And to make matters worse, his relationship with Susannah Melvoin was spinning out of control for the last time.
In the months since the couple had concluded their brief attempt at cohabitation in Prince's Chanhassan home, their fighting had continued taking an emotional toll on the both of them. In December 1986, Susannah finally decided she had had enough; she packed her things and returned to Los Angeles San Fernando Valley, joining Lisa & Wendy
...

One evening shortly after Sussanah's departure, Susan Rogers could tell something was very wrong when Prince came down to the basement studio. Looking disconsolate and barely speaking, he began constructing a song around a meloncholy piano pattern. His spoken lyrics portrayed a fictional dialogue between himself and Wally Safford, a dancer in the band. Sounding sad and lost, Prince asks Wally to borrow $50 and some sunglasses so he can impress his lover, but then changes his mind and returns the items telling Wally that since he is alone now, he has no one to spend the money on. Prince was accompanied only by piano throught the verse, but guitar bass and drums enter as the song built to a chorus on which he sings the phrase "o-ma-la-di-da"


Watching Prince construct the song which he called "Wally", Rogers was stunned by the honest emotion and wistfull resignation it conveyed. She saw the song both as a farewell to Susannah and a means of expelling the poison of failed relationship.

"Do you know that malady means sickness, illness in French?" Prince asked Rogers. Refering to the phrase he sings in the chorus. "It's almost like the word melody, isn't it?" Prince who rarely exposed his inner feelings, even in his music, was groping for a metaphor that would convey his feeling of loss. Rogers felt it was a turning point in his songwriting.

But as the session continued, Prince started to distance himself from the creation. He added extraneous instruments to diminished the songs clarity. A percussion part that cluttered the verse, detracting from the lyrics.

Don't you think it was better before, Prince?" Rogers said. "Maybe we should stop"
He ignored her, adding the synthizer riff. Soon it became clear to her: He was intentionally destroying the song. After larding the piece with additional instruments, he finally spoke. "Now put all 24 Channels on record and erase it." he told Rogers

"No, you can't do this!" Rogers said dismayed by the prospect of losing the statement at the core of the song.

"If you don't I will," Prince responded
Rogers stood her ground, and Prince was forced to operate the soundboard himself, as he destroyed his own music.

"Wally" like his relationship with Susannah, Wendy & Lisa involved more emotional intensity than Prince was willing to accept. "I thought it was the greatest thing he had ever done" says Rogers. I had waited years to hear a Prince song like this. I ached for him to be this honest.

Yet Princes refusal to explore his feelings was not altogether surprising. Rogers had discussed the topic of depression with him and found Prince contemptuous of the notion.
"He thought it was practically a sin to be depressed" she remembered. Many other associates have observed that Prince -not only in his relationships, but even in his music -is cryptic and unrevealing of his deepest feelings. "His music is very passionate, but he doesn't let himself open up emotionally" observed Marylou Badeaux. "

...

WOW!!! This was such a good story, that digs deeper into a side of Prince, I never thought about. I never even heard of this song! It makes me wonder how many songs, he intentionally adds other instruments too, because that shows another side of him. So why did he even release 'Old Friends 4 Sale' with new lyrics? Haha It's a shame, because that was honest.

When you add a lot other stuff in the process, you are killing the foundation and if there is no foundation. NOTHING, can not stand. I think he has since opened himself more. I listen to 'Power Fantastic' and I really find a lot space! As someone mentioned. I would love to hear Wally without all of the other overdubs, but he intentionally destroyed it.

I think honesty is a remarkable element in making music. I DO THINK, Prince brings his emotion the best while playing LIVE. His lyrics may sometimes be beneath him, but he somehow translates what words can't; in his guitars, pianos, and drums. 'West' on N.E.W.S. is a clear example of that. His guitar solo sounds very passionate and soulful.

I appreciate this post Old Friends! A good read indeed!

OldFriends4Sale said:

electricberet said:

This thread reminds me of the scene from The Beatles Anthology when George Martin puts on the album Abbey Road and George Harrison asks what album it is. Sometimes the people who were at the center of everything aren't the best source of information.

That would be Prince as well then...

But they are all better than all of us who weren't there

Not sure about that. I'm guessing that neither Prince nor Susan Rogers is as obssessed with the track sequences on different configurations of the Dream Factory album as some of the people on the org. They know many things that we don't, but they have no reason to care about the minutae anymore.

Geoff Emerick, an engineer for the Beatles, wrote a book about his experiences working in the studio with them. It gives a biased account of events and overemphasizes his own role. There are much better books written by people who weren't in the room but have a better perspective and an obsession with getting the details right.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Chapter 9 Alone:Wally
The Rise & Fall of Prince


The dispute over Crystal Ball left Prince frustrated & depressed.
And to make matters worse, his relationship with Susannah Melvoin was spinning out of control for the last time.
In the months since the couple had concluded their brief attempt at cohabitation in Prince's Chanhassan home, their fighting had continued taking an emotional toll on the both of them. In December 1986, Susannah finally decided she had had enough; she packed her things and returned to Los Angeles San Fernando Valley, joining Lisa & Wendy
...

One evening shortly after Sussanah's departure, Susan Rogers could tell something was very wrong when Prince came down to the basement studio. Looking disconsolate and barely speaking, he began constructing a song around a meloncholy piano pattern. His spoken lyrics portrayed a fictional dialogue between himself and Wally Safford, a dancer in the band. Sounding sad and lost, Prince asks Wally to borrow $50 and some sunglasses so he can impress his lover, but then changes his mind and returns the items telling Wally that since he is alone now, he has no one to spend the money on. Prince was accompanied only by piano throught the verse, but guitar bass and drums enter as the song built to a chorus on which he sings the phrase "o-ma-la-di-da"


Watching Prince construct the song which he called "Wally", Rogers was stunned by the honest emotion and wistfull resignation it conveyed. She saw the song both as a farewell to Susannah and a means of expelling the poison of failed relationship.

"Do you know that malady means sickness, illness in French?" Prince asked Rogers. Refering to the phrase he sings in the chorus. "It's almost like the word melody, isn't it?" Prince who rarely exposed his inner feelings, even in his music, was groping for a metaphor that would convey his feeling of loss. Rogers felt it was a turning point in his songwriting.

But as the session continued, Prince started to distance himself from the creation. He added extraneous instruments to diminished the songs clarity. A percussion part that cluttered the verse, detracting from the lyrics.

Don't you think it was better before, Prince?" Rogers said. "Maybe we should stop"
He ignored her, adding the synthizer riff. Soon it became clear to her: He was intentionally destroying the song. After larding the piece with additional instruments, he finally spoke. "Now put all 24 Channels on record and erase it." he told Rogers

"No, you can't do this!" Rogers said dismayed by the prospect of losing the statement at the core of the song.

"If you don't I will," Prince responded
Rogers stood her ground, and Prince was forced to operate the soundboard himself, as he destroyed his own music.

"Wally" like his relationship with Susannah, Wendy & Lisa involved more emotional intensity than Prince was willing to accept. "I thought it was the greatest thing he had ever done" says Rogers. I had waited years to hear a Prince song like this. I ached for him to be this honest.

Yet Princes refusal to explore his feelings was not altogether surprising. Rogers had discussed the topic of depression with him and found Prince contemptuous of the notion.
"He thought it was practically a sin to be depressed" she remembered. Many other associates have observed that Prince -not only in his relationships, but even in his music -is cryptic and unrevealing of his deepest feelings. "His music is very passionate, but he doesn't let himself open up emotionally" observed Marylou Badeaux. "

...

Thanks for a reminder of this story, it was one of the most facinating stories in Alex Hahn's book. I heard somewhere that he later re-recorded 'Wally' but apparently it didn't have the emotional energy and was significantly different, hopefully one day it will surface.

The whole Possessed book is an awesome read. But be warned, if you are in love with Prince, the person, you may be in for a shock. He is human, afterall, and the book very much potrays him as such...many flaws and all.

Still a great read. I've read it 2.5 times already.