kewlschool said:

Does anyone know that calling anything black or white music is a broad stroke of racism.

100% nonsense.

SynthiaRose said:

djThunderfunk said:

"You see, a lot of people don't realize that, you know, rock and roll is truly black music. It was created by Chuck Berry, Little Richard and black people like that who started it off back in the day, you know. And, as far as I'm concerned, music is music. I don't look at it as Rock, R&B. all that kind of stuff, I just look at it as music, you know. And, anybody who said that I sold out, they can basically suck my dick, 'cause I really don't give a fuck about that shit, you know. But, uh, I do what I like and I happen to like rock and roll and I feel sorry for anybody who only listens to one form of music."

Ice-T

from the intro of "Body Count" on the album O.G. Original Gangster, 1991.

[Edited 2/12/13 20:19pm]

Thank you for quoting that. I am exasperated that this has descended into a racial thing.

I certainly don't isolate rock as white music.

I love rock music and prefer when Prince creates in the rock genre because I need the intensity, the screams, the protest and the rock guitar in my life. I like the reflective lyrics that often go beyond the laid back having-fun/having-sex vibe in modern R&B. Since I'm not white, I guess this would puzzle closed-minded people who believe in race music.

Yes, I do understand culture and do understand that contemporarily there are predominant leanings within cultures. But, since there are exceptions (and a history of blacks in rock) it's just not fair to keep music in a box.

[Edited 2/13/13 5:46am]

I'm white (well... peach? beige? whatever...) and LOVE when Prince rocks out as he's my favorite guitarist. But, my favorite is when he's funky as hell...

So, yeah, stereotypes are ridiculous!

1. Yawn about "black" or "white" music. That's not even a thing anymore unless you are a racist.

(Keep clinging to your sweeping generalizations like they are the truth if you want to though.)

2. Prince has always (since 1978 onwards) had his share of "by the numbers" songs. Not sure it's a bad thing.

datdude said:

Thank you for quoting that. I am exasperated that this has descended into a racial thing.

I certainly don't isolate rock as white music.

I love rock music and prefer when Prince creates in the rock genre because I need the intensity, the screams, the protest and the rock guitar in my life. I like the reflective lyrics that often go beyond the laid back having-fun/having-sex vibe in modern R&B. Since I'm not white, I guess this would puzzle closed-minded people who believe in race music.

Yes, I do understand culture and do understand that contemporarily there are predominant leanings within cultures. But, since there are exceptions (and a history of blacks in rock) it's just not fair to keep music in a box.

[Edited 2/13/13 5:46am]

Point well taken and I don't think you meant to characterize ALL modern R&B this way, but for those who may be in denial about there exposure, perceptions and preferences let me say that there's quite a vibrant subculture of music being made by uhhh, black ppl that defies contemporary labels and categorization, some break through occasionally (ie. Frank Ocean) but many never see the light of day on an awards show or Billboard chart which is sad.

Well, I know there are fringe or hybrid artists, but then I likely wouldn't call them R&B.

I'm known for my formerly stannish ways concerning FRank Ocean, but you can't lift him up as symbolic of modern R&B because he's the exception. Plus, he is insistent that he's not R&B. He is multi-genred and doesn't like to be classified. I think once, he told someone his genre was country music -- that's how much he detests genre labels.

But yes, I get your point that you're perhaps trying to say I"m deriding stereotypes while voicing one. The reason I plead not guilty is because I'm setting boundaries of a genre not people. There's a difference. Genres are defined by boundaries/traits and R&B is about bumping and grinding

I don't think R&B music is reflective or deep. It's about shaking your ass, getting puzzy, going to parties, and cliche lyrics. I've yet to hear an interesting, introspective or novel concepts in R&B music. I've listened to it for years and it leaves it a lot to be desired. Even MIguel, although he's also been credited along with Frank for reviving R&B, isn't talking about anything deep or different.

R

IT's not a conceptual brand of music made by for thinkers. I'm not saying all rock music is, but if you want to journey into the psyche, you can find a lot more intriguing propositions/intriguing thoughts in rock music -- and I like that very much!

Besides Frank Ocean, what other straight R&B music doesn't fit what I called "laid back having sex/having fun" vibe? Who are some concept-driven artists in R&B???

[Edited 2/13/13 11:32am]

I've always preferred R&B Prince over rock Prince but I don't hear anything "black" about "Breakfast" (or whatever the hell the name of that tired song is). When I think "black", I think hard hitting ass shakers like "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "Sexy Dancer", etc., but definitely not something midtempo.

When I hear the new one, I hear Prince trying to attempt to sound "current" and "black" is the last thing I consider current R&B artists to be these days because their music is too bland and midtempo. Hell, back in the 1980s when R&B in general was listened to by mainly a 95% black audience, very few of the hits were bland and midtempo because folks were jamming back then. Shit hop's influence, and later neo stool's influence is what made the R&B genre bland and midtempo. I haven't considered R&B in general to be "black" since the 1980s. The bullshit that's considered R&B these days is "gray".

vainandy said:

I've always preferred R&B Prince over rock Prince but I don't hear anything "black" about "Breakfast" (or whatever the hell the name of that tired song is). When I think "black", I think hard hitting ass shakers like "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "Sexy Dancer", etc., but definitely not something midtempo.

When I hear the new one, I hear Prince trying to attempt to sound "current" and "black" is the last thing I consider current R&B artists to be these days because their music is too bland and midtempo. Hell, back in the 1980s when R&B in general was listened to by mainly a 95% black audience, very few of the hits were bland and midtempo because folks were jamming back then. Shit hop's influence, and later neo stool's influence is what made the R&B genre bland and midtempo. I haven't considered R&B in general to be "black" since the 1980s. The bullshit that's considered R&B these days is "gray".

I happen 2 like GRAY.

Graycap23 said:

vainandy said:

I've always preferred R&B Prince over rock Prince but I don't hear anything "black" about "Breakfast" (or whatever the hell the name of that tired song is). When I think "black", I think hard hitting ass shakers like "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "Sexy Dancer", etc., but definitely not something midtempo.

When I hear the new one, I hear Prince trying to attempt to sound "current" and "black" is the last thing I consider current R&B artists to be these days because their music is too bland and midtempo. Hell, back in the 1980s when R&B in general was listened to by mainly a 95% black audience, very few of the hits were bland and midtempo because folks were jamming back then. Shit hop's influence, and later neo stool's influence is what made the R&B genre bland and midtempo. I haven't considered R&B in general to be "black" since the 1980s. The bullshit that's considered R&B these days is "gray".

I happen 2 like GRAY.

I just now noticed your name.

I admit my laziness in calling F.O r&b because he's blk, so, I like you am guilty of perpetuating the race based labeling. his grammy was for "urban contemporary" right, so that's a better characterization perhaps. Unfortunately, although I KNOW its out there (those conceptual "alternatives" I alluded to and that you asked for), I admit, I feel overwhelmed at the task of "digging" to find out what's quality and who to get into first, esp. those groups with multiple projects, and I haven't done it. so I'll decline on that ground. FYI, apart from P, my primary music consumption is actually gospel. I'm a fan of conscious hip hop (old school, i haven't even gotten into Lupe or the Roots, Common's or PE's recent stuff, (told u i'm lazy) and Janet is still my Future Baby Mama (good thing my wife isn't on the Org. LOL), but yeah, the NEW stuff i've bought over the last couple of years apart from P and O7 is a short list indeed, Cee-Lo's solo joint, Gnarls, Robert Glasper, and a few others that aren't coming to mind. But from my cursory listening, mainstream rock seems to be less "conceptual" than you're making it out to be. it may be less EXPLICITLY about sex, but I don't necessary hear DEPTH when I expose myself to say a random Kings of Leon song, more opaqueness.

^^^ Love, love, love, love Cee-lo! His mind is all sorts of bizarre and I really dig that.

He's definitely conceptual, but I don't consider him R&B. I would just label him alternative I guess, not sure.

I don't think so. I haven't made it out to be anymore than it is. It not like I elevated it to the level of lassical music or jazz. It's for lay thought and lay philosophy, raw emotion, raw protest, raw mental journeys.

A rock song is about your mind having a thought ... where R&B is about your body having a feeling. They appeal to two different things to me. Rock songs obvously do have an element of the primal, like R&B, but to me are about thoughts and reflections -- some deeper than others.

Being less about sex does not make something conceptual. YOu can write explicitly about sex and and explore some concept, theory, quintessential, reflective idea about sex. PRince has done this throughout his career and since sex is my favorite topic, it's one of the things I revere about him. An simple R&B artist only knows how to talk about getting laid and trying to get laid, how many chicks he can bag... whereas a cerebral artist--i.e. PRince and perhaps other rock musicians -- will actually have a philosopy about it. (No pimping isn't a philosophy).They can say something interesting, novel, multi-dimensional or simply beaufitul and reflective about it.

I already gave the caveat about "not all rock" so I don't know what more I can say. Compared to other genres, I definitely consider rock the most introspective.

Any song that makes you think or delves into some esoteric idea is probably going to be rock -- and highly unlikely to be R&B.

Now, I don't listen to mainstream radio and no need to skew this to mainstream rock, but if I"m out and about and I hear a song, or hear it in a movie, or on TV or at some show and it gives me pause and I like the concept, it's usually a rock song, whether it's from the 80s, 90s or now.

P.S. I know nothing about Kings of Leon, but one band does not a argument make. I'm talking a general genre. Just like I can't take one R&B artist and make a case, you can't make your case through Kings of Leon. But you know what, I'm going to go listen to some KOL songs and I bet I'll find some reflective conceptual journals.

(deep and conceptual aren't exactly equivalents. you can take a concept to various levels of depth..my argument is that rock music is about thought and that is the core of the song. I bet nowadays an R&B song emerges just because of a beat. Concept is secondary, tertiary, cookie cutter or. most likely, nonexistent )

[Edited 2/13/13 15:11pm]

points well taken. my KOL reference was just random, not building a case around them. (i've only heard Use Somebody) and again, no one would label "Cee Lo" as r&b, just mentioned him as a "progressive or alternative urban" (urban is the other code word for black as we all know...)

"A rock song is about your mind having a thought ... where R&B is about your body having a feeling."

i like this characterization, although i'm not sure i fully agree