Okay, i understand what "by the numbers" means, synonymous with "mailing it in" right. But what I don't get is why certain TYPES of songs get this accusation more than others? Specifically ballads or mid-tempos like Sticky or Breakfast. (P has had several STELLAR recent ballads btw, FSS, SHOE, BWT, SoE, that were not by the numbers)

However, his rock songs NEVER seem to get this label, because if you play guitar its automatically NOT "by the numbers"??! I LOVE P's rock stuff (I always say Lotus should silence jaded nostalgists) so that's not my gripe, just wondering. Breakfast Can Wait short of the smurf voice is a breathe of fresh air to me and does not feel or sound "formulaic" Every song he makes won't "break new ground" as a genre unto itself, but that doesn't mean he's composing in his sleep.

I suspect it's merely an issue of unconscious preference. Many fans seem to go wild for his non-black/non-RnB/non-neo soul styles e.g. Screwdriver, compared to Breakfast Can Wait.

love,

Spirit

SpiritOtter said:

I suspect it's merely an issue of unconscious preference. Many fans seem to go wild for his non-black/non-RnB/non-neo soul styles e.g. Screwdriver, compared to Breakfast Can Wait.

love,

Spirit

I agree with u on this. This is probably a "white thing". Many white folks don't appreciate "black" music as much as guitar driven music (white music). Its a cultural Thing.

SuperSoulFighter said:

If "by the numbers" means "not very original" than Screwdriver and Somewhere Here on Earth both fall in that category. But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them. On record, Prince has been going through the motions for years. Compare the ten year period from For You to Lovesexy to the ten years from Batman to Rave. In the first case, there is an amazing musical growth. In the second case, there just isn't, even though he still wrote some great songs.

Duh. Of course the 500th song is not going to be as original as song number 50. Is that really hard to grasp? Prince has not been going though the motions. That is pretty silly to even suggest. Just listening to Lotusflower puts that to rest.

Its like people expect to hear a new Prince song and not be able think of 50 other Prince songs that has some similarity to it. People's expectations for Prince are way outside the bounds of rational reality.

SuperSoulFighter said:

I never said it was a bad thing, but it just makes you a little less eager for new stuff, but Lotusflower was good enough to keep me interested. No argument there. But the black/white thing is nonsense. I'm as white a European as possible, but I love blues and soul and funk.And rock comes from those influences. No, it's not a cultural thing.

SpiritOtter has a point somewhat, because back in the 80s Prince was more or less labeled as a rock artist by many fans, and the Purple Rain movie.era pretty much assisted in having him viewed that way by man fans, black/white, etc.

During the mid 80s, not many Black artists were known for playing rock during that time period (although there are many Black musicians who play rock music), but during that time period, many Black musicians/bands focuse on r&b/funk, and so did many record labels when it came to Black musicians/artists.

At that time period, Prince focused more on rock-laced/pop songs. It's no question the Purple Rain movie/era assisted in boosting his stardom as a musician/rtist, so everytime that movie is watched for the first time, those viewers will have that image/view of his music, even though post-Purple Rain, i.e. during the 90s/post 90s, he gravitated to playing more funk/r&b/jazz/latin-flavored tracks, and still did some pop.

I think it is individual choice for any music fan, as to what type of music they embrace whether pop/r&b/jazz, etc., but it is true that it seems that many, not the entire group of course, from his White fan base seem to gravitate and embrace Prince's rock-flavored music, moreso than his r&b/funk/jazz, etc., and I'm just basing that observation on many of the comments over the years I read here on this forum from many fans. I wouldn't say though that 'White' fans, in general, don't embrace 'r&b/funk', which many in society tend to label as Black music, because there are many fans from that particular group that do embrace many flavors of music, including 'r&b and funk'.

[Edited 2/12/13 12:15pm]

SuperSoulFighter said:

I never said it was a bad thing, but it just makes you a little less eager for new stuff, but Lotusflower was good enough to keep me interested. No argument there. But the black/white thing is nonsense. I'm as white a European as possible, but I love blues and soul and funk.And rock comes from those influences. No, it's not a cultural thing.

No you're wrong here. People in general are much more accepting of things they grew up participating in. Its like food. If you grow up eating Thai in Thailand well its a part of you. If you come to Thai food later its an acquired taste.

Of course People of all kinds can appreciate music of all types.

Screwdriver ISN'T by numbers? OK.

Also making this a race thing - what a riot, you great big hairy tits!

I wish his "white" music sounded just as "white" as his "black" music sounds "black". I can´t stand songs like Screwdriver or The One U Want 2 C or Guitar because of the embarrassingly bad lyrics. But I do love his older guitar driven rock songs but these days I prefer his "black" sounding songs so I guess I´m on the other side of the fence.

I just finished a way too long post on that "Breakfast Can Wait" sticky thread where I wrote what I like about that song. In my opinion, his more recent attempts at ballads have been far better than his guitar driven songs ( which don´t even remotely interest me because I can´t listen to a rock song if the lyrics don´t catch my attention or are just plain awful). Of course he´s written some ballads that I strongly dislike, too ( On the Couch, Satisfied, Extraordinary), but as far as the cringe factor and "by the numbers " goes, his "white" songs are far worse than his ballads.

KoolEaze said:

I wish his "white" music sounded just as "white" as his "black" music sounds "black".

Prince is a black man, first and foremost, so it follows that as and when he is true/authentic to his own culture and roots, he is far more convincing as an artist.

love,

Spirit

2elijah said:

SuperSoulFighter said:

I never said it was a bad thing, but it just makes you a little less eager for new stuff, but Lotusflower was good enough to keep me interested. No argument there. But the black/white thing is nonsense. I'm as white a European as possible, but I love blues and soul and funk.And rock comes from those influences. No, it's not a cultural thing.

SpiritOtter has a point somewhat, because back in the 80s Prince was more or less labeled as a rock artist by many fans, and the Purple Rain movie.era pretty much assisted in having him viewed that way by man fans, black/white, etc.

During the mid 80s, not many Black artists were known for playing rock during that time period (although there are many Black musicians who play rock music), but during that time period, many Black musicians/bands focuse on r&b/funk, and so did many record labels when it came to Black musicians/artists.

At that time period, Prince focused more on rock-laced/pop songs. It's no question the Purple Rain movie/era assisted in boosting his stardom as a musician/rtist, so everytime that movie is watched for the first time, those viewers will have that image/view of his music, even though post-Purple Rain, i.e. during the 90s/post 90s, he gravitated to playing more funk/r&b/jazz/latin-flavored tracks, and still did some pop.

I think it is individual choice for any music fan, as to what type of music they embrace whether pop/r&b/jazz, etc., but it is true that it seems that many, not the entire group of course, from his White fan base seem to gravitate and embrace Prince's rock-flavored music, moreso than his r&b/funk/jazz, etc., and I'm just basing that observation on many of the comments over the years I read here on this forum from many fans. I wouldn't say though that 'White' fans, in general, don't embrace 'r&b/funk', which many in society tend to label as Black music, because there are many fans from that particular group that do embrace many flavors of music, including 'r&b and funk'.

[Edited 2/12/13 12:15pm]

Excellent post. I think you mention some points that have a lot to do with what made him successful in the first place. And a Black artist playing guitar has become a bit rare these days, especially someone like Prince who can play various styles of music ( sure, there are Lenny K. and D´Angelo but in my opinion they are in a whole different category but I don´t want to digress, and I am still a huge D´Angelo fan).

Too bad that Prince doesn´t make more use of his talent these days.....I mean, he´s a great guitarist but seriousy, those lyrics he´s come up with in the past couple of years are not something that the average Joe rock listener can relate to. Lotusflower was a good album as far as guitar is concerned but I just can´t listen to songs like Screwdriver, The One U Want 2 C or Guitar.

I miss stuff like When You Were Mine or Computer Blue, or the old, rawer sounding versions of Let´s Go Crazy.

Lion of Judah is in my opinion a nice and very underrated song. The main reason why it´s not one of my favorites is the title and parts of the lyrics, I just find the Biblical reference a bit strange in the title of a love song but the music and the lyrics, albeit not his most brilliant ones, were quite good and interesting and enjoyable.

Screwdriver and those others I mentioned just make me feel embarrassed. I´d much rather listen to his more recent ballads, i.e his "black" sounding music.

Too bad we still have to think in terms of black and white music in the year 2013, especially when talking about Prince, who defied those labels decades ago.

Am I the only one who just doesn't like the terms black and white music? Music is heard and doesn't have any labels until you put it on it or till you are signed with WB.

SpiritOtter said:

KoolEaze said:

I wish his "white" music sounded just as "white" as his "black" music sounds "black".

Prince is a black man, first and foremost, so it follows that as and when he is true/authentic to his own culture and roots, he is far more convincing as an artist.

love,

Spirit

You have a point there but I disagree a bit. There are white folks today who understand some aspects of black music or culture just as good or even better than the average black kid, and then there are black kids who have studied and mastered (and in some cases surpassed) the white music that they grew up with, Prince being a prime example of that. You know very well that he, growing up in a place like Minnesota, listened to a lot of white rock music back in the days simply because there wasn´t that much of a choice. Being a Minnesotan is just as much a part of his identity as being an African American is.

kewlschool said:

Am I the only one who just doesn't like the terms black and white music? Music is heard and doesn't have any labels until you put it on it or till you are signed with WB.

See my last sentence in my post above yours. Totally agree with you, especially in this day and age, with the new millenium and whatnot.

Does anyone know that calling anything black or white music is a broad stroke of racism.

Music doesn't have a label until you give it one.

I'm glad I'm not alone on this one KoolEaze.

KoolEaze said:

SpiritOtter said:

Prince is a black man, first and foremost, so it follows that as and when he is true/authentic to his own culture and roots, he is far more convincing as an artist.

love,

Spirit

You have a point there but I disagree a bit. There are white folks today who understand some aspects of black music or culture just as good or even better than the average black kid, and then there are black kids who have studied and mastered (and in some cases surpassed) the white music that they grew up with, Prince being a prime example of that. You know very well that he, growing up in a place like Minnesota, listened to a lot of white rock music back in the days simply because there wasn´t that much of a choice. Being a Minnesotan is just as much a part of his identity as being an African American is.

You, too, have a point, and I agree with you, to a large extent. However, how much (over his 30+ year career) has his music been defined by his Minnesotan upbringing when compared to his black roots?

I understand nurture has a strong influence on all of us, but I believe it is Prince's nature (and his growing understanding/acceptance of himself as a black man) that has played an increasing role, to the point where we can now see how it is has influenced and defined the vast majority of his music. Whilst there clearly has been diversity throughout Prince's interests, records, bands, he does seem to gravitate (time and time again) back to a heritage of soul music from a black perspective (more so than from a Minnesotan's).

In terms of his mindset, due to his success, he's travelled far further afield than Minnesota, leaving only traces of his upbringing behind as remaining a pivotal influencer on his music. The opposite trajectory is true when you chart his ever increasing acknowledgement of who he is as a person of colour; a black man, of history, culture and musical influence.

love,

Spirit

kewlschool said:

KoolEaze said:

2elijah said:

SpiritOtter has a point somewhat, because back in the 80s Prince was more or less labeled as a rock artist by many fans, and the Purple Rain movie.era pretty much assisted in having him viewed that way by man fans, black/white, etc.

During the mid 80s, not many Black artists were known for playing rock during that time period (although there are many Black musicians who play rock music), but during that time period, many Black musicians/bands focuse on r&b/funk, and so did many record labels when it came to Black musicians/artists.

At that time period, Prince focused more on rock-laced/pop songs. It's no question the Purple Rain movie/era assisted in boosting his stardom as a musician/rtist, so everytime that movie is watched for the first time, those viewers will have that image/view of his music, even though post-Purple Rain, i.e. during the 90s/post 90s, he gravitated to playing more funk/r&b/jazz/latin-flavored tracks, and still did some pop.

I think it is individual choice for any music fan, as to what type of music they embrace whether pop/r&b/jazz, etc., but it is true that it seems that many, not the entire group of course, from his White fan base seem to gravitate and embrace Prince's rock-flavored music, moreso than his r&b/funk/jazz, etc., and I'm just basing that observation on many of the comments over the years I read here on this forum from many fans. I wouldn't say though that 'White' fans, in general, don't embrace 'r&b/funk', which many in society tend to label as Black music, because there are many fans from that particular group that do embrace many flavors of music, including 'r&b and funk'.

[Edited 2/12/13 12:15pm]

Excellent post. I think you mention some points that have a lot to do with what made him successful in the first place. And a Black artist playing guitar has become a bit rare these days, especially someone like Prince who can play various styles of music ( sure, there are Lenny K. and D´Angelo but in my opinion they are in a whole different category but I don´t want to digress, and I am still a huge D´Angelo fan).

Too bad that Prince doesn´t make more use of his talent these days.....I mean, he´s a great guitarist but seriousy, those lyrics he´s come up with in the past couple of years are not something that the average Joe rock listener can relate to. Lotusflower was a good album as far as guitar is concerned but I just can´t listen to songs like Screwdriver, The One U Want 2 C or Guitar.

I miss stuff like When You Were Mine or Computer Blue, or the old, rawer sounding versions of Let´s Go Crazy.

Lion of Judah is in my opinion a nice and very underrated song. The main reason why it´s not one of my favorites is the title and parts of the lyrics, I just find the Biblical reference a bit strange in the title of a love song but the music and the lyrics, albeit not his most brilliant ones, were quite good and interesting and enjoyable.

Screwdriver and those others I mentioned just make me feel embarrassed. I´d much rather listen to his more recent ballads, i.e his "black" sounding music.

Too bad we still have to think in terms of black and white music in the year 2013, especially when talking about Prince, who defied those labels decades ago.

That's just it, the average Joe rock guitar listener, if they know anything about Prince, should know by now he never stuck to one form of music, so why would they 'expect' him to just do rock? With his popular r&b/romance ballads, it was clear he was more than a rock guitarist who is good at playing rock, as well as other forms of music.

I think he rode the Purple wave of the Purple Rain era, to the point where he was smart enough to not overdo it. I think it would have pigeon-holed his image, as well as his creative music output, especially if he had other forms of music in his interest, that he wanted to present to his fans.

Also, it is clear that the groups he created under the Prince umbrella, were basically extensions of his musical creativity. He basically created these groups as another part of his music personality, i.e., image and performance-wise. For example, Morris Day and The Time, The Family, Mazarati, etc., were really all different sides of his musical image. Of course, once these groups were formed, they eventually contributed to and became the personas, so-to-speak, of their group.

You mentioned Lenny Kravitz, who quite frankly is only known, as a rock musician, whereas Prince is a more versatile, musician who is not afraid to take risks musically/performance-wise.

You also mention the song, 'Lion of Judah', and how you don’t feel comfortable with the title of a song, being a bible reference for a love song, but what does that say about the many gospel/spiritual songs, where the lyrics speak of love and the title of the song, has bible references?

Lastly, I find that many people tend to put labels on music, because most in society have been socially-conditioned to associate specific forms of music with specific groups; where particular types of music are commonly embraced or familiar within specific groups. The thing is, even though you state that Prince defied that type of labeling, then why are many of his fans (not all of course) still doing it? Whether he performs/embraces r&b , funk, rock, jazz, latin music, etc., shouldn’t all those forms of music be given equal respect and value, rather than having some belief , that one has more value over the other, based on some race-based ignorant belief? By questioning that, I am not suggesting that fans should like every song a musician/artist releases or creates.

'Was' to 'is' edit

[

[Edited 2/13/13 7:56am]

tricky99 said:

SpiritOtter said:

I suspect it's merely an issue of unconscious preference. Many fans seem to go wild for his non-black/non-RnB/non-neo soul styles e.g. Screwdriver, compared to Breakfast Can Wait.

love,

Spirit

I agree with u on this. This is probably a "white thing". Many white folks don't appreciate "black" music as much as guitar driven music (white music). Its a cultural Thing.

And many black people don't listen to rock because it's "white" music, right?

Gimme a break. Music is not racially exclusive...

"You see, a lot of people don't realize that, you know, rock and roll is truly black music. It was created by Chuck Berry, Little Richard and black people like that who started it off back in the day, you know. And, as far as I'm concerned, music is music. I don't look at it as Rock, R&B. all that kind of stuff, I just look at it as music, you know. And, anybody who said that I sold out, they can basically suck my dick, 'cause I really don't give a fuck about that shit, you know. But, uh, I do what I like and I happen to like rock and roll and I feel sorry for anybody who only listens to one form of music."

Ice-T

from the intro of "Body Count" on the album O.G. Original Gangster, 1991.

[Edited 2/12/13 20:19pm]

2elijah said:

KoolEaze said:

Excellent post. I think you mention some points that have a lot to do with what made him successful in the first place. And a Black artist playing guitar has become a bit rare these days, especially someone like Prince who can play various styles of music ( sure, there are Lenny K. and D´Angelo but in my opinion they are in a whole different category but I don´t want to digress, and I am still a huge D´Angelo fan).

Too bad that Prince doesn´t make more use of his talent these days.....I mean, he´s a great guitarist but seriousy, those lyrics he´s come up with in the past couple of years are not something that the average Joe rock listener can relate to. Lotusflower was a good album as far as guitar is concerned but I just can´t listen to songs like Screwdriver, The One U Want 2 C or Guitar.

I miss stuff like When You Were Mine or Computer Blue, or the old, rawer sounding versions of Let´s Go Crazy.

Lion of Judah is in my opinion a nice and very underrated song. The main reason why it´s not one of my favorites is the title and parts of the lyrics, I just find the Biblical reference a bit strange in the title of a love song but the music and the lyrics, albeit not his most brilliant ones, were quite good and interesting and enjoyable.

Screwdriver and those others I mentioned just make me feel embarrassed. I´d much rather listen to his more recent ballads, i.e his "black" sounding music.

Too bad we still have to think in terms of black and white music in the year 2013, especially when talking about Prince, who defied those labels decades ago.

That's just it, the average Joe rock guitar listener, if they know anything about Prince, should know by now he never stuck to one form of music, so why would they 'expect' him to just do rock? With his popular r&b/romance ballads, it was clear he was more than a rock guitarist who is good at playing rock, as well as other forms of music.

I think he rode the Purple wave of the Purple Rain era, to the point where he was smart enough to not overdo it. I think it would have pigeon-holed his image, as well as his creative music output, especially if he had other forms of music in his interest, that he wanted to present to his fans. It is clear when .

Also, it is clear that the groups he created under the Prince umbrella, were basically extensions of his music creativity. He basically created these groups as another part of his music personality- musically, image and performance-wise.

For example, Morris Day and The Time, The Family, Mazarati, etc., were really all the different sides, and of course, once these groups were formed, they eventually contributed to the personas, so-to-speak, of their group.

You mention Lenny Kravitz, who quite frankly is only known, as a rock musician, whereas Prince is a more versatile, musician who is not afraid to take risks musically/performance-wise.

You also mention the song, 'Lion of Judah', and how you don’t feel comfortable with the title of a song, being a bible reference for a love song, but what does that say about the many gospel/spiritual songs, where the lyrics speak of love and the title of the song, has bible references?

Lastly, I find that many people tend to put labels on music, because most in society have been socially-conditioned to associate specific forms or music with specific groups, where particular types of music are commonly embraced or familiar within specific groups. The thing is, even though you state that Prince defied that type of labeling, then why are many of his fans (not all of course) still doing it? Whether he performs/embraces r&b , funk, rock, jazz, latin music, etc., shouldn’t all those forms of music be given equal respect and value, rather than having some belief , that one has more value over the other, based on some race-based ignorant belief? By questioning that, I am not suggesting that fans should like every song a musician/artist releases or creates.

'Was' to 'is' edit

[Edited 2/12/13 19:45pm]

You make it easy for me, to not spend too much time explaining! Hahaha SO, thanks again for this detailed observation! It's a true statement, to how I feel as well

Because Prince is able to create many styles of music, it amazes me each time to look at his extension of his musical vocabulary.

SuperSoulFighter said:

If "by the numbers" means "not very original" than Screwdriver and Somewhere Here on Earth both fall in that category. But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them. On record, Prince has been going through the motions for years. Compare the ten year period from For You to Lovesexy to the ten years from Batman to Rave. In the first case, there is an amazing musical growth. In the second case, there just isn't, even though he still wrote some great songs.

You make a good distinction that I think we're sometimes too lazy to differentiate because I don't think those things are interchageable (thus my point about each song "breaking new ground"). One criteria for me is whether a song (strongly) REMINDS me of something else he's done. Screwdriver doesn't remind me of anything he's done in particular, so for me it feels original, however, i'm not crazy about it. Arrangement wise, SHOE is original to my ears and NOT formulaic although ppl might think, "another falsetto bedroom ballad" and miss that's its NOT Adore, Insatiable, Scandalous, etc. Same with Satisfied and On the Couch, both more bluesy (which is rarer for him) and not MY faves, but not "by the numbers." The 1UWC feels derivative but I like it, felt it deserved more airplay. LOJ does have a weird juxstaposition of lyrics, title and message but to me it reveals among his fans who really is "anti-biblical" vs. those who can see past such references and be more objective in their critiques

I didn't use the "race" and black/white language in my OP because i'm over that, (all P fans aren't and BEING a "PRINCE" fan doesn't mean that one will automatically BE) however I DO THINK that ppl are sometimes subconsiously unaware of how they project their preferences (based on their socialization) into their opinions.

tricky99 said:

SpiritOtter said:

I suspect it's merely an issue of unconscious preference. Many fans seem to go wild for his non-black/non-RnB/non-neo soul styles e.g. Screwdriver, compared to Breakfast Can Wait.

love,

Spirit

I agree with u on this. This is probably a "white thing". Many white folks don't appreciate "black" music as much as guitar driven music (white music). Its a cultural Thing.

Join us in the 21st century.

tricky99 said:

SpiritOtter said:

I suspect it's merely an issue of unconscious preference. Many fans seem to go wild for his non-black/non-RnB/non-neo soul styles e.g. Screwdriver, compared to Breakfast Can Wait.

love,

Spirit

I agree with u on this. This is probably a "white thing". Many white folks don't appreciate "black" music as much as guitar driven music (white music). Its a cultural Thing.

Seriously?

djThunderfunk said:

"You see, a lot of people don't realize that, you know, rock and roll is truly black music. It was created by Chuck Berry, Little Richard and black people like that who started it off back in the day, you know. And, as far as I'm concerned, music is music. I don't look at it as Rock, R&B. all that kind of stuff, I just look at it as music, you know. And, anybody who said that I sold out, they can basically suck my dick, 'cause I really don't give a fuck about that shit, you know. But, uh, I do what I like and I happen to like rock and roll and I feel sorry for anybody who only listens to one form of music."

Ice-T

from the intro of "Body Count" on the album O.G. Original Gangster, 1991.

[Edited 2/12/13 20:19pm]

Thank you for quoting that. I am exasperated that this has descended into a racial thing.

I certainly don't isolate rock as white music.

I love rock music and prefer when Prince creates in the rock genre because I need the intensity, the screams, the protest and the rock guitar in my life. I like the reflective lyrics that often go beyond the laid back having-fun/having-sex vibe in modern R&B. Since I'm not white, I guess this would puzzle closed-minded people who believe in race music.

Yes, I do understand culture and do understand that contemporarily there are predominant leanings within cultures. But, since there are exceptions (and a history of blacks in rock) it's just not fair to keep music in a box.

[Edited 2/13/13 5:46am]

Thank you for quoting that. I am exasperated that this has descended into a racial thing.

I certainly don't isolate rock as white music.

I love rock music and prefer when Prince creates in the rock genre because I need the intensity, the screams, the protest and the rock guitar in my life. I like the reflective lyrics that often go beyond the laid back having-fun/having-sex vibe in modern R&B. Since I'm not white, I guess this would puzzle closed-minded people who believe in race music.

Yes, I do understand culture and do understand that contemporarily there are predominant leanings within cultures. But, since there are exceptions (and a history of blacks in rock) it's just not fair to keep music in a box.

[Edited 2/13/13 5:46am]

Point well taken and I don't think you meant to characterize ALL modern R&B this way, but for those who may be in denial about there exposure, perceptions and preferences let me say that there's quite a vibrant subculture of music being made by uhhh, black ppl that defies contemporary labels and categorization, some break through occasionally (ie. Frank Ocean) but many never see the light of day on an awards show or Billboard chart which is sad.