I am wondering; does Prince change the production on his music on purpose, is this a kind of an intended plan of his in an effort to re-invent himself? The reason I ask is that I have thought a lot about the huge difference in quality styles in his music. The production on his first albums are to me very tame and does not impress me at all. Purple Rain is greatly produced but to me, on production, his best work is on Gold Experience where he uses the synth pads and creates a more smooth pop production. The production on "I hate U" is to me perfection (in a ddition to the song itself which is a masterpiece) and I also love the production on "The One". On the other side I have always been very disappointed with the production on the song "Strange Relationship", which I find too tame. But do you think he changes this on purpose as werll??

Anything post 1995 tends to be poorly produced...often having a dull, lifeless, vacuum sound. I think it's partly him trying to emulate R n B and rappers (think Incense and Candles) which to me is going totally in the wrong direction.

However, there were also albums pre 95 that weren't so well produced, think SOTT.

(Planet Earth and Lotusflow3r seemed to buck that trend...sounded good, maybe he used analogue equipment or used different facilities....)

It could be because he does most of it himself refusing to pay for professionals but i can't prove that. More likely, he puts less of a priority on production and more on "the music" in the rush to record while he feels inspired....

The best album he ever did purely in terms of production was Symbol (1992) IMO...that sounds amazing.

I would prefer him to bring back the light, airy, sound, allow it to breathe a bit.....think Old Friends 4 Sale released on The Vault....

The production on the recent Superconductor (with the exception of the title track) was pretty good....again think he returned to analogue for this...

[Edited 2/7/13 14:11pm]

Ok as an Audio Engineer/Producer...

I got to ask all of yall...

Who hear actually knows what Music Production really is?

Cause by these answers I'm reading, I get the feeling yall have no idea.

^ One uses ones ears....that tells u a lot

TheFreakerFantastic said:

^ One uses ones ears....that tells u a lot

I'm serious, I read a lot of crazy stuff regarding "production" in this forum.

And I work in the field, and I just wonder, what yall think production really is?

Hear is a hint, has very little to do with "Analogue and Digital."

^ Eye know and when i talk about analogue and digital i am referring to the source recording method, NOT the distribution....

What is your view on Prince's production quality/methods?

[Edited 2/7/13 15:31pm]

TheFreakerFantastic said:

^ Eye know and when i talk about analogue and digital i am referring to the source recording method, NOT the distribution....

What is your view on Prince's production quality/methods?

[Edited 2/7/13 15:31pm]

Source recording method?

I don't mean to put yall on the spot.

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Prince's production style hasn't really changed much through years.

It's always been a hybrid of organic instruments with synthesized sounds.

When I think of poor production, I'm thinking of overly ringy sounding snare drums.

Bad EQ & Compression techniques.

Multitrack dub recording Vs. Band Recording. (Prince usually does both)

From an aestetics point of view Prince's records sound production is always phenomenal.

I don't think you guys are talking about that stuff...

Are you guys talking about instrument choices? Vocal stylings?

Which I guess is a part of production, but more in the arranging category.

Ricky Peterson was the co-producer on a lot of the Gold tracks - Eye Hate U, TMBGITW, Gold

so maybe he should get him back!

TommorowNeverKnows said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

^ Eye know and when i talk about analogue and digital i am referring to the source recording method, NOT the distribution....

What is your view on Prince's production quality/methods?

[Edited 2/7/13 15:31pm]

Source recording method?

I don't mean to put yall on the spot.

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Prince's production style hasn't really changed much through years.

It's always been a hybrid of organic instruments with synthesized sounds.

When I think of poor production, I'm thinking of overly ringy sounding snare drums.

Bad EQ & Compression techniques.

Multitrack dub recording Vs. Band Recording. (Prince usually does both)

From an aestetics point of view Prince's records sound production is always phenomenal.

I don't think you guys are talking about that stuff...

Are you guys talking about instrument choices? Vocal stylings?

Which I guess is a part of production, but more in the arranging category.

You´re right about me, I am not going to claim that I am an expert on music production. I am interested in it, though, and I know what kind of production I like on the music and I know what i don´t like. So I think it´s great that there are some of you who seem to have good knowledge about production, because then you might be able to answer this for me:

Like I said, I personally think that "I hate U" is absolutely brilliantly produced and in my opinion he couldn´t have produced it better. What I think about here when I say the production is the way it sounds. I have tried to think about what it is that I like so much about it, and it seems that my favourite production is the one that uses synth pads undeneath the instruments so that it feels like it has in my ears more depth and more layers. To me it just sounds better. I think that this can be because I am a melody pop kinda guy and that this often is used on that kind of songs. If I´m not wrong the synth pad production was used a lot in the 90s but it doesn´t seem to be used so much today. So my question is: if you understand what i mean about the synth pad 90s production, think I hate U, does this particular production style have a name or do you just say to a producer that I like a production with layered synth pads?

If I have managed to get my point out I hope someone can help me

I Think a lot of Prince's albums sound sort of 'Muddled' . IE even when listening to them on a good pair of head phones the sounds sort of bleed together in a way that's tough to differentiate the instruments. Or the singing is very clear in one part of the song and hard to hear in another (and not in an 'On Purpose' sort of way).

Idk, but to my ears, on disc, a lot of Prince's stuff doesn't sound as "crisp" as say FutureSex/LoveSound by timberlake or Love Revolution by Lenny K

TommorowNeverKnows said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

^ Eye know and when i talk about analogue and digital i am referring to the source recording method, NOT the distribution....

What is your view on Prince's production quality/methods?

[Edited 2/7/13 15:31pm]

Source recording method?

I don't mean to put yall on the spot.

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Prince's production style hasn't really changed much through years.

It's always been a hybrid of organic instruments with synthesized sounds.

When I think of poor production, I'm thinking of overly ringy sounding snare drums.

Bad EQ & Compression techniques.

Multitrack dub recording Vs. Band Recording. (Prince usually does both)

From an aestetics point of view Prince's records sound production is always phenomenal.

I don't think you guys are talking about that stuff...

Are you guys talking about instrument choices? Vocal stylings?

Which I guess is a part of production, but more in the arranging category.

Thanks for professional clarification...

TommorowNeverKnows said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

^ Eye know and when i talk about analogue and digital i am referring to the source recording method, NOT the distribution....

What is your view on Prince's production quality/methods?

[Edited 2/7/13 15:31pm]

Source recording method?

I don't mean to put yall on the spot.

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Prince's production style hasn't really changed much through years.

It's always been a hybrid of organic instruments with synthesized sounds.

When I think of poor production, I'm thinking of overly ringy sounding snare drums.

Bad EQ & Compression techniques.

Multitrack dub recording Vs. Band Recording. (Prince usually does both)

From an aestetics point of view Prince's records sound production is always phenomenal.

I don't think you guys are talking about that stuff...

Are you guys talking about instrument choices? Vocal stylings?

Which I guess is a part of production, but more in the arranging category.

Well it was announced somewhere (Funkenberry?!) that he recorded Superconductor on 2" analogue tape and also rumoured he did the same for Lotusflow3r.

I'm not talking at all about the instrumentation, it's more the EQ/Compression/Loudness/Distortion..etc etc....in sum the way it sounds rather 'plasticy'....listen to Fury on 3121...the production makes it sound dull, boring and positively anaemic...when you hear live recordings it sounds amazing....so something is getting lost in the way he puts it on record...and the way he sometimes records vocals a bit like rappers do, not allowing much of the sound to 'breathe'.....

[Edited 2/8/13 2:01am]

TommorowNeverKnows said:

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Your statement that nobody records to tape anymore is obviously not true. There are plenty of producers and engineers that have either never abandoned it or have gone back to using it.

According to Prince's own words his own recent works have been recorded to tape, although it's possible that he's done what you're describing and has just downmixed the DAW recordings to tape.

novabrkr said:

TommorowNeverKnows said:

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Your statement that nobody records to tape anymore is obviously not true. There are plenty of producers and engineers that have either never abandoned it or have gone back to using it.

According to Prince's own words his own recent works have been recorded to tape, although it's possible that he's done what you're describing and has just downmixed the DAW recordings to tape.

To have sufficient amount of tape for the recording and dubbing process your going to have to pay several tens of thousands of dollars, tape is costing about 200 dollars per 14 minutes of audio. It's just not cost effective to actually use tape the way it was done in the 80's and 90's.

The way producers use tape now, is simply tape washing. They own a small reel to reel. And once they've finished recording on a DAW, they print on tape momentarily, to be printed back in the DAW. And they re-use the tape for each song.

To use tape for a multitrack recording, is madness. You're talking a cost overhead ranging between 5 to 50 grand per song. (depending on how many instruments your using, and how many overdubs you create.)

It could range up to half a million dollars on tape alone for a whole project. And thats not counting studio fees.

All for what? Tape Compression?

insanity.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

TommorowNeverKnows said:

Source recording method?

I don't mean to put yall on the spot.

But P, might be using an analogue console to monitor, but he's not recording to tape like he use to.

Simply because nobody does anymore. Tape is too expensive.

At most he could wash the recordings by printing them to used tapes, but eventualy he has to re-record into a digital sequencer.

Prince's production style hasn't really changed much through years.

It's always been a hybrid of organic instruments with synthesized sounds.

When I think of poor production, I'm thinking of overly ringy sounding snare drums.

Bad EQ & Compression techniques.

Multitrack dub recording Vs. Band Recording. (Prince usually does both)

From an aestetics point of view Prince's records sound production is always phenomenal.

I don't think you guys are talking about that stuff...

Are you guys talking about instrument choices? Vocal stylings?

Which I guess is a part of production, but more in the arranging category.

Well it was announced somewhere (Funkenberry?!) that he recorded Superconductor on 2" analogue tape and also rumoured he did the same for Lotusflow3r.

I'm not talking at all about the instrumentation, it's more the EQ/Compression/Loudness/Distortion..etc etc....in sum the way it sounds rather 'plasticy'....listen to Fury on 3121...the production makes it sound dull, boring and positively anaemic...when you hear live recordings it sounds amazing....so something is getting lost in the way he puts it on record...and the way he sometimes records vocals a bit like rappers do, not allowing much of the sound to 'breathe'.....

[Edited 2/8/13 2:01am]

I listened to fury...

Not hearing "plasticy"

The guitar sound isn't as hot as i'd like it and the Synths could be brighter.

Other than that, I think it's fine.

There's always going to be discrepencies between live and album recordings.

^ No there's more to it than that. It sounds dull. If you want another example of 'plasticy' listen to NewPowerSoul (album) or Incense and Candles on 3121.

[Edited 2/8/13 14:31pm]

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Anything post 1995 tends to be poorly produced...often having a dull, lifeless, vacuum sound. I think it's partly him trying to emulate R n B and rappers (think Incense and Candles) which to me is going totally in the wrong direction.

However, there were also albums pre 95 that weren't so well produced, think SOTT.

[Edited 2/7/13 14:11pm]

Where i stopped reading. You obviously don't have the SOTT vinyl, or for that matter a clue. Production has nothing to do with how shit your CD sounds man. Not a fucking thing.

TommorowNeverKnows said:

novabrkr said:

Your statement that nobody records to tape anymore is obviously not true. There are plenty of producers and engineers that have either never abandoned it or have gone back to using it.

According to Prince's own words his own recent works have been recorded to tape, although it's possible that he's done what you're describing and has just downmixed the DAW recordings to tape.

To have sufficient amount of tape for the recording and dubbing process your going to have to pay several tens of thousands of dollars, tape is costing about 200 dollars per 14 minutes of audio. It's just not cost effective to actually use tape the way it was done in the 80's and 90's.

The way producers use tape now, is simply tape washing. They own a small reel to reel. And once they've finished recording on a DAW, they print on tape momentarily, to be printed back in the DAW. And they re-use the tape for each song.

To use tape for a multitrack recording, is madness. You're talking a cost overhead ranging between 5 to 50 grand per song. (depending on how many instruments your using, and how many overdubs you create.)

It could range up to half a million dollars on tape alone for a whole project. And thats not counting studio fees.

All for what? Tape Compression?

insanity.

It might not be used in the same way as it once was by most, but that doesn't mean your statement that nobody uses it anymore would have been correct.

Marrk said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Anything post 1995 tends to be poorly produced...often having a dull, lifeless, vacuum sound. I think it's partly him trying to emulate R n B and rappers (think Incense and Candles) which to me is going totally in the wrong direction.

However, there were also albums pre 95 that weren't so well produced, think SOTT.

[Edited 2/7/13 14:11pm]

Where i stopped reading. You obviously don't have the SOTT vinyl, or for that matter a clue. Production has nothing to do with how shit your CD sounds man. Not a fucking thing.

Well obviously it does....the production/conversion of the CD is obviously at fault LOL

Have you not read the infamous stories of the accidental distortion of If I Was Your Girlfriend and the power cut leading to muted sound on The Ballad of Dorothy Parker? Both of which Prince kept as he liked the effect.

[Edited 2/9/13 10:24am]

Production choices play a part on the possibilities how a record can be mastered for different formats (CD, LP). You have to take such things into account beforehand, especially these days when records are expected to be quite loud (getting the tracks loud enough using limiting techniques produces better results if the choice of instrumentation, how busy the tracks are etc. are done in a certain way).

That's not to say SOTT on CD doesn't sound unnecessarily bad or that the production or Prince's choice of sounds is ultimately to blame for it. It's possible that they tried to optimize the records for the stereo / car stereo equipment available at the time and that's why the frequency response is so odd sounding in overall. The SOTT CDs sounds a lot better on my old 80s stereos (I don't think it sounds that bad at all that way), although the CDs really do sound bad on my studio monitors or on other more modern playback equipment. Michael Jackson's "Bad" is pretty much the same in that respect.

So is that Metallica CD that came out at the time, "... And Justice For All", for that matter.

People usually say that the CDs at the time sound bad because they were just pressed from the masters that were done for the LP releases. It's just a bit strange that the really bad sounding CD releases mostly come from the late-80s and not early-80s. You'd think the earlier CD releases would "suck in the same way" in that case, but I don't think they really do.

novabrkr said:

So is that Metallica CD that came out at the time, "... And Justice For All", for that matter.

People usually say that the CDs at the time sound bad because they were just pressed from the masters that were done for the LP releases. It's just a bit strange that the really bad sounding CD releases mostly come from the late-80s and not early-80s. You'd think the earlier CD releases would "suck in the same way" in that case, but I don't think they really do.

Yes, you're right I think they did do this, they didn't really think of adapting it.

I meant that it isn't necessarily the only reason.

Some CDs from that era suggest they tried to do something to them that doesn't quite work with the way the current playback equipment is set.

From my point of view/ear a lot of songs by prince in the last few years sound a lil bit cheap. i really don't think it's a problem of digital or analogue recording techniques. For me it's simply the choice of his "line in" instruments. i'm really surprised for example about the keyboard/ synth sounds on screwdriver remix - it really sounds like he was skipping between some preset sounds on his keyboard and chose some of the "cool" sounding ones. but at the end the chosen sounds don't really fit into that guitar driven rock song. They ruin the extented part of the remix for me.... completely. They're maybe cool to record some ideas without any bigger efford. (that's why i call screwdriver remix an outtake...) ..(or the high pitched voice on BCW... damn ..!?!?! )

if this is really the best Prince can do nowadays in the studio... THEN i'm shocked!

... and then comes all the rest, as we see in the previous posts, where a musician/producer/ production team can do the essential interesting stuff to complete a final mix of a song.

that's why i'm often somehow disappointed by his productions style because he has all possibilities to record a song to "end"... but sometimes it sounds like he is not puttin really love into finishing a song. maybe he ain't got the patience to do it... don't know..

he did some nice efforts in the last few years - for example Rainbow Children. that I consider a very nice production. i also dig screwdriver .wav. for me that is a finished song ready to release. the other 3 mp3's sound like ideas or outtakes.... still nice to be able to check them out. (he's so taaaaaaalented!!!! damn..)

interesting thing in music biz is: sometimes very creative artists are able to create great sounding music with very poor preconditions.

... my 2 cents

Dandroppedadime said:

Ricky Peterson was the co-producer on a lot of the Gold tracks - Eye Hate U, TMBGITW, Gold

so maybe he should get him back!

New question about this one: how much of the production on the Gold tracks do you think this Ricky Peterson did? I mean, how much of the production was Peterson and how much of it was Prince himself? And how different would the tracks sound if Prince had done all the production himself like he usually does? Can it be that it is Ricky Peterson´s production input I love so much about the tracks? (although it would be a little sad)

And has Prince ever said anything about why he chose to work with another producer on The Gold Experience when he pretty much had done everything himself before that, and if I´m not wrong, also went back to doing it himself after that? What was so special about the Gold album that he wanted another co-producer?

MrNorway said:

Dandroppedadime said:

Ricky Peterson was the co-producer on a lot of the Gold tracks - Eye Hate U, TMBGITW, Gold

so maybe he should get him back!

New question about this one: how much of the production on the Gold tracks do you think this Ricky Peterson did? I mean, how much of the production was Peterson and how much of it was Prince himself? And how different would the tracks sound if Prince had done all the production himself like he usually does? Can it be that it is Ricky Peterson´s production input I love so much about the tracks? (although it would be a little sad)

And has Prince ever said anything about why he chose to work with another producer on The Gold Experience when he pretty much had done everything himself before that, and if I´m not wrong, also went back to doing it himself after that? What was so special about the Gold album that he wanted another co-producer?

I don't know how much influence Ricky Peterson had on GE... obviously he has a lot of experience in production and synthesizer/ piano work...

But I would also mention that the "original NPG" was a bunch of very talented and funky musicians that interacted very well and maybe inspired Prince quite much during that time.

I like the whole aera round 93-96... the npg side projects too...

I mentioned the keyboard/synthesizer work before: I always was a fan of Tommy Barbarella! Maybe he wasn't the most skillful keyboard player but he always contributed great sounds (OG clavinet rhodes wurlizer hammond moog....). I realized that fact even more when I saw greazy meal live around 95... tommy was on fire behind his keyboard tower! (also the first greazy meal cd has great keyboard work and great production for such an indy band.)

Maybe I'm completly wrong but I think that Sonny, Michael n Tommy did great contribution to Gold Experience that is clearly hearable! (Most on: RnR is alive n lives in MPLS)