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Thread started 01/25/13 10:12am

galapogosian

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Prince's more traditionally Jazz songs?

I need to select a jazz track to present in class. I would like to use Prince's music as an example of Jazz. I was wondering what you could suggest as songs that are more traditional and similar to what is commonly thought of as just music. Please include album of origin with track names.

Thank you.
I wish Prince love, long life, and freedom from the shackles of Jehovah.
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Reply #1 posted 01/25/13 10:22am

thebeautifulon
es777

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you could use the N.E.W.S album its all jazz

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Reply #2 posted 01/25/13 10:24am

Farfunknugin

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His Madhouse "8" track entitled '4' Its the one he blends in seamlessly with Ballad Of Dorothy Parker when he plays it live

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Reply #3 posted 01/25/13 10:26am

novabrkr

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

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Reply #4 posted 01/25/13 10:28am

novabrkr

I really don't think you should use Prince as an example of jazz music though.

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Reply #5 posted 01/25/13 10:28am

OldFriends4Sal
e

Is Old Friends 4 Sale more like Blues?

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Reply #6 posted 01/25/13 10:30am

swdee

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Xpectation is his most pure jazz record

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Reply #7 posted 01/25/13 10:31am

novabrkr

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

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Reply #8 posted 01/25/13 10:39am

OldFriends4Sal
e

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

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Reply #9 posted 01/25/13 11:05am

funkaholic1972

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OldFriends4Sale said:

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

Me neither, not at all!

It is blues in a big band/orchestra arrangement, which gives it a jazzy edge. IMHO of course... wink

RIP Prince: thank U 4 a funky Time...
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Reply #10 posted 01/25/13 11:06am

novabrkr

OldFriends4Sale said:

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

It's not that different from songs like Anotherloverholenyohead stylistically.

I just put it on and have to admit that the vocals have a sort of a jazz feel to them, which I've never really realized before. I certainly wouldn't use it as an example of "traditional" jazz in any case.

[Edited 1/25/13 11:08am]

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Reply #11 posted 01/25/13 11:33am

jackmitz

novabrkr said:

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

As a HUGE jazz fan, I'm curious...what is jazz in the "traditional sense"? Bop/post-bop are as much a part of jazz as fusion, ragtime, stride, and swing. It's ALL jazz.

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Reply #12 posted 01/25/13 11:57am

novabrkr

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

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Reply #13 posted 01/25/13 1:17pm

jackmitz

novabrkr said:

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

Again...what is jazz in the "traditional sense". Jazz was, and is, ever-evolving. It DID evolve into fusion. That is truth.

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Reply #14 posted 01/25/13 1:35pm

IstenSzek

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might i suggest the wonderful and ocean deep catalogue of mr charlie mingus?

and true love lives on lollipops and crisps
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Reply #15 posted 01/25/13 1:54pm

Miles

jackmitz said:

novabrkr said:

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

As a HUGE jazz fan, I'm curious...what is jazz in the "traditional sense"? Bop/post-bop are as much a part of jazz as fusion, ragtime, stride, and swing. It's ALL jazz.

Ah, the eternal 'What is jazz?' question (rubs goaty, and adjusts beret into jaunty position in deep reflection). 'Modern' jazz is a term that generally refers to the hard bop style improvisation developed by the bands of Miles Davis, Horace Silver and John Coltrane, over 50 years ago (so, not so 'modern' at all, really).

Prince has occasionally touched on influences from hard bop, but really only as a cosmetic arrangement effect. He likes a 'jazz sound' is proficient in evoking it live (ie. the live versions of Dorothy Parker from c. 2002), but he is not individualist enough as a jazz arranger or improviser to take it further. Having said that, he imo has a surprisingly good grasp of mainstream jazz guitar styles, 'octaving' a la Wes Mongomery/ George Benson going right back to Crazy You on the For You album. But he is not an innovator, more an imitator in this style.

'Traditional' or 'trad' jazz used to refer to music resembling the New Orleans style of jazz of the 1920s, mainly the sounds of Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet. Fusion covers a multitude of blessings and even more sins smile . Prince clearly likes Santana, Return to Forever, Weather Report, the more accessible electric Miles Davis music, conventional latin jazz, and the jazzier leanings of his favourate '70s soul/ funk artists. They are his main connection to the 'jazz tradition', along with his father's jazz piano playing.

Many of Prince's songs have 'jazz chords' and harmonies but then so does the music of Brian Wilson and Stevie Wonder, but nobody seriously calls them jazz artists, at least in their original recordings. Similar chords are used in classical music from at least Wagner onwards.

I agree with novabrkr on this, in that I do not consider Prince to be or have ever been a true jazz musician. He is much more of a 'pop' musician. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, he does have a fairly limited trick-bag of riffs and effects he can improvise with on guitar, keyboards and bass, but as an instrumentalist, he never really aims to express himself, his 'mood-in-the-moment', a la Sonny Rollins, or weaving in clever little quotes from other tunes like Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker would. Prince lacks or has chosen not to develop that musical improvisational muscle (which takes years to reach a stage of true individuality), preferring to 'cover the waterfront' by playing effectively in his one-man band format and to be an entertainer. He is far too well rehearsed a performer, as a musician taking few chances live, as I see it. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Prince's jazz-influenced instrumental recordings like the Madhouse, NEWS and Xpectation stuff make for a cool body of work, especially the latter two, and are underappreciated by Prince fans and the general public, but imo he stays too much in funk/pop/rock comfort zone on most of those tracks, so most, for me, cannot be classified 'jazz' in any genuine sense, more semi-generic jazz flavoured funk grooves with rock overtones at times.

I think the nearest Prince reaches jazz is in his vocals. While definitely not a true jazz singer, like a Sarah Vaughn or a jazz pop singer like Frank Sinatra, in Prince's song Avalanche (from One Nite Alone), he successfully writes and sings his lyrics in a 'bitter' way I would associate with a singer like Abbey Lincoln. In fact, off the top of my head, Avalanche is perhaps the only significant 'jazz song' Prince has released, meaning a song and recording that fits that 'jazz tradition', in its original form, without needing to be rearranged by a jazz arranger.

For me, jazz is very hard to describe effectively, but I would suggest it is to improvise in the blues scale using African American rhythms in a polished, sophisticated manner, often using experimental ideas and abstracted melodies in a way that strongly puts across your own musical personality. Does this make Prince jazz? Your call cool .

[Edited 1/25/13 13:57pm]

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Reply #16 posted 01/25/13 2:46pm

jackmitz

IstenSzek said:

might i suggest the wonderful and ocean deep catalogue of mr charlie mingus?

I LOVE Mingus. Great player, great composer.

Occupy Alphabet Street!




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Reply #17 posted 01/25/13 11:09pm

novabrkr

jackmitz said:

novabrkr said:

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

Again...what is jazz in the "traditional sense". Jazz was, and is, ever-evolving. It DID evolve into fusion. That is truth.

The original poster had been given an assignment in school. My point really is that there a plenty of artists that exemplify what jazz is without having to play a Prince track for the class. Especially if the assignment had been about traditional jazz (or what is "more traditional" as the OP writes). I think the whole point about this type of assignments is that the students will do some research and not just play a track by one of their favourite pop artists.

Prince's instrumental works are pretty close to some stuff by Weather Report, Billy Cobham, Passport and the like. While I personally consider that type of fusion to be a legitimate subgenre of jazz it is not an opinion that everyone shares. It is certainly not jazz in the "traditional sense". Furthermore, Prince's work in this regard emphasizes the rock music elements quite considerably and contain long passages that have barely anything to do with jazz.

So he's not a very good example to use in this regard. Even if you were to use fusion as an example of jazz there are far better choices in that regard.

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Reply #18 posted 01/26/13 9:10am

SuperSoulFight
er

Good post by Miles. I'm not a big jazz fan (Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew is about all I have...) so I never looked at P's music from this perspective.
Anywho, if you really want a jazz tune by Prince, how about Now's the Time from the SignOtheTimes tour.
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Reply #19 posted 01/26/13 11:06am

purplepolitici
an

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14 or 12 minutes each, exactly. gets interesting here and there, but quite obsessive compulsive. madhouse thirteen rocks every mutha. can't think of a traditional jazz i even know lol, but any purple one moves me every time cool

For all time I am with you, you are with me.
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Reply #20 posted 01/26/13 1:22pm

ludwig

SuperSoulFighter said:

Good post by Miles. I'm not a big jazz fan (Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew is about all I have...) so I never looked at P's music from this perspective. Anywho, if you really want a jazz tune by Prince, how about Now's the Time from the SignOtheTimes tour.

It's not a prince song. It's from Charlie Parker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Parker

You never read the end credits of the movie, right?

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Reply #21 posted 01/26/13 1:57pm

SuperSoulFight
er

^I knew that! Just like A Night in Tunisia which was played on the D&P tour is by Dizzie Gillespie! It just goes to show that Prince never did "trad jazz" except as covers.
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Reply #22 posted 01/26/13 2:04pm

fabriziovenera
ndi

The long version of "spoke to me" is a more 'classic' jazz tune.

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Reply #23 posted 01/26/13 3:06pm

hyperpessimist

fabriziovenerandi said:

The long version of "spoke to me" is a more 'classic' jazz tune.

Co-sign - take this one, I'd say.

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Reply #24 posted 01/27/13 1:49am

kenkamken

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When The Lights Go Down?
"So fierce U look 2night, the brightest star pales 2 Ur sex..."
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Reply #25 posted 01/28/13 3:42pm

BrazilianOnRas
pberryBeret

OldFriends4Sale said:

Is Old Friends 4 Sale more like Blues?

For me, yes. It's a blues song. Not jazz.

-Wtv u heard bout me is true,I change the rules n do what I wanna do.[Im n love w God,He's the only way - NOT!]We know we gotta die some day,so Im gon have fun evr MF night!Im gon 2 another life.How bout u?
-Im wit u...Ur so cool, evrtg u do is SUCCESS.
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Reply #26 posted 01/29/13 12:02am

artist76

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Miles said:



jackmitz said:




novabrkr said:


Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.



"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.





As a HUGE jazz fan, I'm curious...what is jazz in the "traditional sense"? Bop/post-bop are as much a part of jazz as fusion, ragtime, stride, and swing. It's ALL jazz.



Ah, the eternal 'What is jazz?' question (rubs goaty, and adjusts beret into jaunty position in deep reflection). 'Modern' jazz is a term that generally refers to the hard bop style improvisation developed by the bands of Miles Davis, Horace Silver and John Coltrane, over 50 years ago (so, not so 'modern' at all, really).



Prince has occasionally touched on influences from hard bop, but really only as a cosmetic arrangement effect. He likes a 'jazz sound' is proficient in evoking it live (ie. the live versions of Dorothy Parker from c. 2002), but he is not individualist enough as a jazz arranger or improviser to take it further. Having said that, he imo has a surprisingly good grasp of mainstream jazz guitar styles, 'octaving' a la Wes Mongomery/ George Benson going right back to Crazy You on the For You album. But he is not an innovator, more an imitator in this style.



'Traditional' or 'trad' jazz used to refer to music resembling the New Orleans style of jazz of the 1920s, mainly the sounds of Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet. Fusion covers a multitude of blessings and even more sins smile . Prince clearly likes Santana, Return to Forever, Weather Report, the more accessible electric Miles Davis music, conventional latin jazz, and the jazzier leanings of his favourate '70s soul/ funk artists. They are his main connection to the 'jazz tradition', along with his father's jazz piano playing.



Many of Prince's songs have 'jazz chords' and harmonies but then so does the music of Brian Wilson and Stevie Wonder, but nobody seriously calls them jazz artists, at least in their original recordings. Similar chords are used in classical music from at least Wagner onwards.



I agree with novabrkr on this, in that I do not consider Prince to be or have ever been a true jazz musician. He is much more of a 'pop' musician. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, he does have a fairly limited trick-bag of riffs and effects he can improvise with on guitar, keyboards and bass, but as an instrumentalist, he never really aims to express himself, his 'mood-in-the-moment', a la Sonny Rollins, or weaving in clever little quotes from other tunes like Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker would. Prince lacks or has chosen not to develop that musical improvisational muscle (which takes years to reach a stage of true individuality), preferring to 'cover the waterfront' by playing effectively in his one-man band format and to be an entertainer. He is far too well rehearsed a performer, as a musician taking few chances live, as I see it. Again, nothing wrong with that.



Prince's jazz-influenced instrumental recordings like the Madhouse, NEWS and Xpectation stuff make for a cool body of work, especially the latter two, and are underappreciated by Prince fans and the general public, but imo he stays too much in funk/pop/rock comfort zone on most of those tracks, so most, for me, cannot be classified 'jazz' in any genuine sense, more semi-generic jazz flavoured funk grooves with rock overtones at times.



I think the nearest Prince reaches jazz is in his vocals. While definitely not a true jazz singer, like a Sarah Vaughn or a jazz pop singer like Frank Sinatra, in Prince's song Avalanche (from One Nite Alone), he successfully writes and sings his lyrics in a 'bitter' way I would associate with a singer like Abbey Lincoln. In fact, off the top of my head, Avalanche is perhaps the only significant 'jazz song' Prince has released, meaning a song and recording that fits that 'jazz tradition', in its original form, without needing to be rearranged by a jazz arranger.



For me, jazz is very hard to describe effectively, but I would suggest it is to improvise in the blues scale using African American rhythms in a polished, sophisticated manner, often using experimental ideas and abstracted melodies in a way that strongly puts across your own musical personality. Does this make Prince jazz? Your call cool .

[Edited 1/25/13 13:57pm]


Excellent post, Miles. I co-sign pretty much everything, except I can't grow a goatee and I don't own a beret! lol
I do also agree with jackmitz that jazz is ever evolving, like music and culture itself, jazz is not a static thing, nor should it be.
Two points: you discuss how Prince is more an "imitator." I agree, and yet many artists wear the "jazz" artist label without being innovative, particularly the ones who reinterpret the standards/"traditional" repertoire in an unremarkable way. Is Prince any less innovative, or is he [i]more[i] innovative by slapping "jazz stylings" onto a funk, rock, pop song? This is not a rhetorical question - I really don't know the answer myself.
Second, you discuss his singing, and I really do think his voice as an instrument is underappreciated, so thanks for mentioning that! Whether you call it "jazz" singing or not, in many songs he has used his voice like an instrument together with the other ones, I think in a way that many contemporary singers do not/cannot do. More a throwback to older forms of popular singing, akin to jazz. Probably an influence of his mother.

Bottom line to OP - should not use a Prince song as an example for the class unless you can articulate intelligently why and how you think the song is "jazz."
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Reply #27 posted 01/29/13 9:51pm

peterv

I'd like to suggest:

In the traditional sense...

Xemplify

Xogenous

The Rainbow Children (title track)

13 (by Madhouse)

In the classic jazz-vocal sense...

Somewhere Here On Earth

Damn U

In the contempory sense...

Ballad Of Dorothy Paker

When The Lights Go Down

Strollin'

In the neuvo sense...

Willing And Able

Love 2 The 9s

I will think of more. I LIKE this thread.

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Reply #28 posted 01/29/13 10:24pm

thebanishedone

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nice list Peter,a good read Miles but i disagre about some stuff.just because Prince don't showcase his abilitx don't mean he don't have it.listen to Prince's jazz guitar solos on My Summertime Thang instrumental ,Get Some Solo or listen to Prince's bass solo on 2Nigs and tell me that is s limited improvisation vocabulary .of course Prince can't do jazz like jazz cats but jazz is definetly runnin Prince's vains. And Avalanche isn't Prince's jazziest stuff.
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Reply #29 posted 01/29/13 10:53pm

peterv

Another great jazz tune (not sure what) category is:

In A Large Room With No Light '09

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