you could use the N.E.W.S album its all jazz

His Madhouse "8" track entitled '4' Its the one he blends in seamlessly with Ballad Of Dorothy Parker when he plays it live

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

I really don't think you should use Prince as an example of jazz music though.

Is Old Friends 4 Sale more like Blues?

Xpectation is his most pure jazz record

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

OldFriends4Sale said:

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

Me neither, not at all!

It is blues in a big band/orchestra arrangement, which gives it a jazzy edge. IMHO of course...

OldFriends4Sale said:

novabrkr said:

The original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" is really just 80s pop music. The version from the 1990s has a big band arrangement, which I suppose tilts it more in the jazz direction.

Still, not a great example of what jazz is.

That's why I refered to it as blues,

I don't get 80's Pop from 1985 Old Friends 4 Sale

It's not that different from songs like Anotherloverholenyohead stylistically.

I just put it on and have to admit that the vocals have a sort of a jazz feel to them, which I've never really realized before. I certainly wouldn't use it as an example of "traditional" jazz in any case.

[Edited 1/25/13 11:08am]

novabrkr said:

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

As a HUGE jazz fan, I'm curious...what is jazz in the "traditional sense"? Bop/post-bop are as much a part of jazz as fusion, ragtime, stride, and swing. It's ALL jazz.

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

novabrkr said:

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

Again...what is jazz in the "traditional sense". Jazz was, and is, ever-evolving. It DID evolve into fusion. That is truth.

might i suggest the wonderful and ocean deep catalogue of mr charlie mingus?

jackmitz said:

novabrkr said:

Don't use N.E.W.S it's 1970s style fusion in the style of Weather Report. It's "jazz", but certainly not in the traditional sense.

"Courtin' Time" from Emancipation is really "swing", but that's the closest I can think of him doing jazz or jazz-related music in the traditional sense.

As a HUGE jazz fan, I'm curious...what is jazz in the "traditional sense"? Bop/post-bop are as much a part of jazz as fusion, ragtime, stride, and swing. It's ALL jazz.

Ah, the eternal 'What is jazz?' question (rubs goaty, and adjusts beret into jaunty position in deep reflection). 'Modern' jazz is a term that generally refers to the hard bop style improvisation developed by the bands of Miles Davis, Horace Silver and John Coltrane, over 50 years ago (so, not so 'modern' at all, really).

Prince has occasionally touched on influences from hard bop, but really only as a cosmetic arrangement effect. He likes a 'jazz sound' is proficient in evoking it live (ie. the live versions of Dorothy Parker from c. 2002), but he is not individualist enough as a jazz arranger or improviser to take it further. Having said that, he imo has a surprisingly good grasp of mainstream jazz guitar styles, 'octaving' a la Wes Mongomery/ George Benson going right back to Crazy You on the For You album. But he is not an innovator, more an imitator in this style.

'Traditional' or 'trad' jazz used to refer to music resembling the New Orleans style of jazz of the 1920s, mainly the sounds of Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet. Fusion covers a multitude of blessings and even more sins . Prince clearly likes Santana, Return to Forever, Weather Report, the more accessible electric Miles Davis music, conventional latin jazz, and the jazzier leanings of his favourate '70s soul/ funk artists. They are his main connection to the 'jazz tradition', along with his father's jazz piano playing.

Many of Prince's songs have 'jazz chords' and harmonies but then so does the music of Brian Wilson and Stevie Wonder, but nobody seriously calls them jazz artists, at least in their original recordings. Similar chords are used in classical music from at least Wagner onwards.

I agree with novabrkr on this, in that I do not consider Prince to be or have ever been a true jazz musician. He is much more of a 'pop' musician. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, he does have a fairly limited trick-bag of riffs and effects he can improvise with on guitar, keyboards and bass, but as an instrumentalist, he never really aims to express himself, his 'mood-in-the-moment', a la Sonny Rollins, or weaving in clever little quotes from other tunes like Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker would. Prince lacks or has chosen not to develop that musical improvisational muscle (which takes years to reach a stage of true individuality), preferring to 'cover the waterfront' by playing effectively in his one-man band format and to be an entertainer. He is far too well rehearsed a performer, as a musician taking few chances live, as I see it. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Prince's jazz-influenced instrumental recordings like the Madhouse, NEWS and Xpectation stuff make for a cool body of work, especially the latter two, and are underappreciated by Prince fans and the general public, but imo he stays too much in funk/pop/rock comfort zone on most of those tracks, so most, for me, cannot be classified 'jazz' in any genuine sense, more semi-generic jazz flavoured funk grooves with rock overtones at times.

I think the nearest Prince reaches jazz is in his vocals. While definitely not a true jazz singer, like a Sarah Vaughn or a jazz pop singer like Frank Sinatra, in Prince's song Avalanche (from One Nite Alone), he successfully writes and sings his lyrics in a 'bitter' way I would associate with a singer like Abbey Lincoln. In fact, off the top of my head, Avalanche is perhaps the only significant 'jazz song' Prince has released, meaning a song and recording that fits that 'jazz tradition', in its original form, without needing to be rearranged by a jazz arranger.

For me, jazz is very hard to describe effectively, but I would suggest it is to improvise in the blues scale using African American rhythms in a polished, sophisticated manner, often using experimental ideas and abstracted melodies in a way that strongly puts across your own musical personality. Does this make Prince jazz? Your call .

[Edited 1/25/13 13:57pm]

IstenSzek said:

might i suggest the wonderful and ocean deep catalogue of mr charlie mingus?

I LOVE Mingus. Great player, great composer.

jackmitz said:

novabrkr said:

Fusion is not jazz in the traditional sense. Let's be serious here.

Again...what is jazz in the "traditional sense". Jazz was, and is, ever-evolving. It DID evolve into fusion. That is truth.

The original poster had been given an assignment in school. My point really is that there a plenty of artists that exemplify what jazz is without having to play a Prince track for the class. Especially if the assignment had been about traditional jazz (or what is "more traditional" as the OP writes). I think the whole point about this type of assignments is that the students will do some research and not just play a track by one of their favourite pop artists.

Prince's instrumental works are pretty close to some stuff by Weather Report, Billy Cobham, Passport and the like. While I personally consider that type of fusion to be a legitimate subgenre of jazz it is not an opinion that everyone shares. It is certainly not jazz in the "traditional sense". Furthermore, Prince's work in this regard emphasizes the rock music elements quite considerably and contain long passages that have barely anything to do with jazz.

So he's not a very good example to use in this regard. Even if you were to use fusion as an example of jazz there are far better choices in that regard.

14 or 12 minutes each, exactly. gets interesting here and there, but quite obsessive compulsive. madhouse thirteen rocks every mutha. can't think of a traditional jazz i even know , but any purple one moves me every time

SuperSoulFighter said:

Good post by Miles. I'm not a big jazz fan (Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew is about all I have...) so I never looked at P's music from this perspective. Anywho, if you really want a jazz tune by Prince, how about Now's the Time from the SignOtheTimes tour.

It's not a prince song. It's from Charlie Parker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Parker

You never read the end credits of the movie, right?

The long version of "spoke to me" is a more 'classic' jazz tune.

fabriziovenerandi said:

The long version of "spoke to me" is a more 'classic' jazz tune.

Co-sign - take this one, I'd say.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Is Old Friends 4 Sale more like Blues?

For me, yes. It's a blues song. Not jazz.

Miles said:

I'd like to suggest:

In the traditional sense...

Xemplify

Xogenous

The Rainbow Children (title track)

13 (by Madhouse)

In the classic jazz-vocal sense...

Somewhere Here On Earth

Damn U

In the contempory sense...

Ballad Of Dorothy Paker

When The Lights Go Down

Strollin'

In the neuvo sense...

Willing And Able

Love 2 The 9s

I will think of more. I LIKE this thread.

Another great jazz tune (not sure what) category is:

In A Large Room With No Light '09