Just a question..

Consider the lyrics of songs like 'Controversy' and 'Sexuality', was Prince a major player in terms of a gay liberation movement (even though it was at it's height in 60's 70's.. gay people were still stigmatized in the 80's) or even your own emancipation from the shackles of sexual oppression from society? Did Prince's lyrics that sought to fight for the freedom to 'come out' help you at all?

It seems that Prince hasn't touched on the topic of sexuality possibly since then.... I personally love this side to Prince, but feel that maybe he was just playing a very political game of chess.. Anyways, would love to hear your opinions or stories.

I guess it may have helped me be very open minded. but when i think of gay people i do not think sex. i do not know why anyone would. do people think about heterosexual sex when they meet a hetro couple?

the reaction to hearing someone is gay seems to be all too often in relation to their imagined sex... i do not think the same it true for hetros. If i meat a ugly couple i do not go there... i do not get that aspect of the rush to judgment.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I'm pretty sure he played with ambigously gay lyrics in the same way Morrissey did--sort of as a coming out without having to come out.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I guess it may have helped me be very open minded. but when i think of gay people i do not think sex. i do not know why anyone would. do people think about heterosexual sex when they meet a hetro couple?

the reaction to hearing someone is gay seems to be all too often in relation to their imagined sex... i do not think the same it true for hetros. If i meat a ugly couple i do not go there... i do not get that aspect of the rush to judgment.

I wasn't thinking in terms of 'sex'. More about the idea of 'coming out'. I say this because to me, Sexuality is about the freedom of one's sex, and a generation of change. I was wondering if anyone found freedom in his lyrcis or even as a role model.

But I understand your first statement, thanks

imago said:

I'm pretty sure he played with ambigously gay lyrics in the same way Morrissey did--sort of as a coming out without having to come out.

Do you think this was to attract a gay audience, or to be apart and find comfort from another isolated and oppressed group (Like that of Black people) or maybe just to appear different from everyone else as he was doing with the 'look' at the time....Rude boy springs to mind.

SpiritOtter said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

If i meat a ugly couple.

Freudian slip? love, Spirit

yeah

andykeen said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I guess it may have helped me be very open minded. but when i think of gay people i do not think sex. i do not know why anyone would. do people think about heterosexual sex when they meet a hetro couple?

the reaction to hearing someone is gay seems to be all too often in relation to their imagined sex... i do not think the same it true for hetros. If i meat a ugly couple i do not go there... i do not get that aspect of the rush to judgment.

I wasn't thinking in terms of 'sex'. More about the idea of 'coming out'. I say this because to me, Sexuality is about the freedom of one's sex, and a generation of change. I was wondering if anyone found freedom in his lyrcis or even as a role model.

But I understand your first statement, thanks

but i am not--as far as i know--- gay. but i think the openness to ones own sexuality being part of his lyrical themes did influence me on how I view my own and those of others.

I think Prince isn't seen as a gay icon because he's a heterosexual male and is more androgynous than gay in terms of general appeal and image. I'd guess he's more of an outsiders' icon, more genderfuck and queer than gay. Gay icons tend to be female, or if they're male, but straight, more mainstream physically attractive and 'masculine.'

Other than a few libertine passages on some of the 80s albums there really isn't much that connects Prince to gay liberation - The lines in Controversy are more for shock value than anything, much the same prodding for attention as his genderfuck image. Similarly Sexuality is talking about the subject in general not sexual preference.

Still, lyrics like on Controversy, Dirty Mind and inclusive utopian ideals like in Paisley Park and other songs are appealing to anyone who felt marginalised or an outsider growing up - whether that was that you were gay, a geek, you were last picked at sports, you were a swot, a girl outside the A-group - whatever it was that made you feel an outsider - I think Prince fans tended to be these kinds of kids, and Prince's music - because it created a very idiosyncratic Universe, and you felt a part of that and identified with it - When Prince sang about being jealous of his tall, handsome brother - you didn't have to be a short funny looking black kid from the Mid-West to understand those feelings.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong all you hardcore Prince nerds who were jocks and cheerleaders

SpiritOtter said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

If i meat a ugly couple.

Freudian slip? love, Spirit

NouveauDance said:

I think Prince isn't seen as a gay icon because he's a heterosexual male and is more androgynous than gay in terms of general appeal and image. I'd guess he's more of an outsiders' icon, more genderfuck and queer than gay. Gay icons tend to be female, or if they're male, but straight, more mainstream physically attractive and 'masculine.'

Other than a few libertine passages on some of the 80s albums there really isn't much that connects Prince to gay liberation - The lines in Controversy are more for shock value than anything, much the same prodding for attention as his genderfuck image. Similarly Sexuality is talking about the subject in general not sexual preference.

Still, lyrics like on Controversy, Dirty Mind and inclusive utopian ideals like in Paisley Park and other songs are appealing to anyone who felt marginalised or an outsider growing up - whether that was that you were gay, a geek, you were last picked at sports, you were a swot, a girl outside the A-group - whatever it was that made you feel an outsider - I think Prince fans tended to be these kinds of kids, and Prince's music - because it created a very idiosyncratic Universe, and you felt a part of that and identified with it - When Prince sang about being jealous of his tall, handsome brother - you didn't have to be a short funny looking black kid from the Mid-West to understand those feelings.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong all you hardcore Prince nerds who were jocks and cheerleaders

You can be a cheerleader and still feel like an outsider.

NouveauDance said:

I think Prince isn't seen as a gay icon because he's a heterosexual male and is more androgynous than gay in terms of general appeal and image. I'd guess he's more of an outsiders' icon, more genderfuck and queer than gay. Gay icons tend to be female, or if they're male, but straight, more mainstream physically attractive and 'masculine.'

Other than a few libertine passages on some of the 80s albums there really isn't much that connects Prince to gay liberation - The lines in Controversy are more for shock value than anything, much the same prodding for attention as his genderfuck image. Similarly Sexuality is talking about the subject in general not sexual preference.

Still, lyrics like on Controversy, Dirty Mind and inclusive utopian ideals like in Paisley Park and other songs are appealing to anyone who felt marginalised or an outsider growing up - whether that was that you were gay, a geek, you were last picked at sports, you were a swot, a girl outside the A-group - whatever it was that made you feel an outsider - I think Prince fans tended to be these kinds of kids, and Prince's music - because it created a very idiosyncratic Universe, and you felt a part of that and identified with it - When Prince sang about being jealous of his tall, handsome brother - you didn't have to be a short funny looking black kid from the Mid-West to understand those feelings.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong all you hardcore Prince nerds who were jocks and cheerleaders

Damn, I agree with every word of this; it hits the nail on the head perfectly!!! And, by the way, I was a three sport athlete and felt much like an outsider because I was a reader, I wrote poetry and fiction, and didn't follow the trends of the mindless masses. So...I...guess...I...agree with Genesia also. What the hell is happening to me? I have agreed with both of you in one post. They gon' take my Black Liberation Card!

Genesia said:

You can be a cheerleader and still feel like an outsider.

You're not wrong. You know what I meant though, no matter why you felt like an outsider, it's usually that kind of person that was a Prince fan.

andykeen said:

Just a question..

Consider the lyrics of songs like 'Controversy' and 'Sexuality', was Prince a major player in terms of a gay liberation movement (even though it was at it's height in 60's 70's.. gay people were still stigmatized in the 80's) or even your own emancipation from the shackles of sexual oppression from society? Did Prince's lyrics that sought to fight for the freedom to 'come out' help you at all?

It seems that Prince hasn't touched on the topic of sexuality possibly since then.... I personally love this side to Prince, but feel that maybe he was just playing a very political game of chess.. Anyways, would love to hear your opinions or stories.

in the 1980's Prince played with/used a lot of homosexual images and themes

I didn't know till yeeeaaars later that Lisa & Wendy were lovers. I just thought the hand holding in the When Doves Cry poster/video was just a gesture

In outtakes and releases including some protege songs Prince explored 'homosexual' imagery a lot

Mazarati's Suzy is about a crossdressing/transgendered man

OldFriends4Sale said:

in the 1980's Prince played with/used a lot of homosexual images and themes

I didn't know till yeeeaaars later that Lisa & Wendy were lovers. I just thought the hand holding in the When Doves Cry poster/video was just a gesture

In outtakes and releases including some protege songs Prince explored 'homosexual' imagery a lot

Mazarati's Suzy is about a crossdressing/transgendered man

According to most scholars, Sappho was gay. Yet, the depiction of female relationships in her poetry was not just about the celebration of homosexuality but was more a socio-political commentary on the denial of rights to women, for which choice--especially the choice of a lover--became a major issue or symbol or trope for Sappho. And to accomplish her goal, she purposefully used/mastered ambiguity so that most of her poems can be read either as a lesbian love letter or as purely a socio-political call for female equality. It was actually the men of the day who attached the theme of lesbianism to Sappho's work as a way to marginalize her. Yet, as a critical/creative thinker, she understood that allowing the men to think of her poetry as merely love letters allowed her to articulate her message of female equality to women without much resistance from men because, again, they mostly regarded it as harmless love notes and not a challenged to male dominance. What, however, would separate Sappho from Prince is that she was quite open about her sexual relationships with women even while using ambiguity to cloak her messages whereas while we have had strong rumor about Prince having male lovers there has been no smoking gun or penis.

*

So I don't know if Prince is gay or not. I don't necessarily care, and while his being gay would mean that I would be forced to reassess some of his songs it seems that there is more lyrical evidence to suggest that Prince was using androgyny more as a trope or symbol for individualism than for, say, revealing something about himself or championing gay liberation. Again, I may be completely wrong, but there is just not enough there. However, it was a post a while back by Imago that made me think, "hummm," regarding the opening of the "Gett Off" video when Prince is clearly humped by a man. Now that act, itself, is difficult to explain, other than me saying it's just Prince being Prince. But, I’ll admit that being humped by a man is a mighty long way to go just to champion individualism.

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

in the 1980's Prince played with/used a lot of homosexual images and themes

I didn't know till yeeeaaars later that Lisa & Wendy were lovers. I just thought the hand holding in the When Doves Cry poster/video was just a gesture

In outtakes and releases including some protege songs Prince explored 'homosexual' imagery a lot

Mazarati's Suzy is about a crossdressing/transgendered man

According to most scholars, Sappho was gay. Yet, the depiction of female relationships in her poetry was not just about the celebration of homosexuality but was more a socio-political commentary on the denial of rights to women, for which choice--especially the choice of a lover--became a major issue or symbol or trope for Sappho. And to accomplish her goal, she purposefully used/mastered ambiguity so that most of her poems can be read either as a lesbian love letter or as purely a socio-political call for female equality. It was actually the men of the day who attached the theme of lesbianism to Sappho's work as a way to marginalize her. Yet, as a critical/creative thinker, she understood that allowing the men to think of her poetry as merely love letters allowed her to articulate her message of female equality to women without much resistance from men because, again, they mostly regarded it as harmless love notes and not a challenged to male dominance. What, however, would separate Sappho from Prince is that she was quite open about her sexual relationships with women even while using ambiguity to cloak her messages whereas while we have had strong rumor about Prince having male lovers there has been no smoking gun or penis.

*

So I don't know if Prince is gay or not. I don't necessarily care, and while his being gay would mean that I would be forced to reassess some of his songs it seems that there is more lyrical evidence to suggest that Prince was using androgyny more as a trope or symbol for individualism than for, say, revealing something about himself or championing gay liberation. Again, I may be completely wrong, but there is just not enough there. However, it was a post a while back by Imago that made me think, "hummm," regarding the opening of the "Gett Off" video when Prince is clearly humped by a man. Now that act, itself, is difficult to explain, other than me saying it's just Prince being Prince. But, I’ll admit that being humped by a man is a mighty long way to go just to champion individualism.

lol I don't think he's gay either

He plays with all kinds of sexual implications

for a gay man he sure likes singing about licking fanny.

i'm british by the way

[Edited 11/29/12 14:53pm]

NouveauDance said:

I think Prince isn't seen as a gay icon because he's a heterosexual male and is more androgynous than gay in terms of general appeal and image. I'd guess he's more of an outsiders' icon, more genderfuck and queer than gay. Gay icons tend to be female, or if they're male, but straight, more mainstream physically attractive and 'masculine.'

Other than a few libertine passages on some of the 80s albums there really isn't much that connects Prince to gay liberation - The lines in Controversy are more for shock value than anything, much the same prodding for attention as his genderfuck image. Similarly Sexuality is talking about the subject in general not sexual preference.

Still, lyrics like on Controversy, Dirty Mind and inclusive utopian ideals like in Paisley Park and other songs are appealing to anyone who felt marginalised or an outsider growing up - whether that was that you were gay, a geek, you were last picked at sports, you were a swot, a girl outside the A-group - whatever it was that made you feel an outsider - I think Prince fans tended to be these kinds of kids, and Prince's music - because it created a very idiosyncratic Universe, and you felt a part of that and identified with it - When Prince sang about being jealous of his tall, handsome brother - you didn't have to be a short funny looking black kid from the Mid-West to understand those feelings.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong all you hardcore Prince nerds who were jocks and cheerleaders

That's real nice. Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you

[Edited 11/29/12 15:57pm]

He definitely played a huge part in me accepting my sexuality myself and coming out years later due to him flaunting his absolute badass "I don't give a fuck what you think" attitude in people's faces and then being powerful enough that he could fuck someone up if they dared to get in his face with some bullshit. I admired this the most about him even more than the music that he made which I loved.

Before Prince, when I thought of a gay man, I thought of the stereotypes that people were associating gay people with which were usually "nerdy", "dorky", "weak" stereotypes of feminine men who were into things like classical music, violins, ballet, opera, and all the other things that people considered "uncool". I also thought of the stereotypes that gay people were people who were weak and could be bullied and instead of seeking revenge, they would sit and cry in front of the bullies like a damn fool and get messed with even more. Images that I absolutely could not STAND. Then I saw Prince on "American Bandstand" in the early part of the year 1980. I instantly could see that not only was he gay, but he was gay as HELL to the point that even Stevie Wonder could see it. This bitch came out in the skintight satin spandex pants that only women on TV and hookers were wearing. I had seen them on Rod Stewart and Leif Garrett but they didn't have the gestures that Prince had. He actually pranced across that stage all through both performances and stood with his hand all on his hip and his other hand on his head in his hair. And then he would point to each band member as he introduced them to Dick Clark ever so fish with his hand all up in the air. And that hair! The only people I saw that hairstyle on was black women. Yeah, a very few black men had a perm back then but it didn't look a third as womanly as it did on Prince. And that bitch could sling that hair too better than all three of Charlie's Angels put together. Oh, he was definitely gay, but he wasn't the classical music, violin lesson taking, ballet dancing queens that gay men were being associated with. He was getting off harder than straight people would and then he did "Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad" and he looked like if someone messed with him, he would bash them over the head with his guitar and then shove it up their ass. He had pure BADASS attitude and I absolutely LOVED it from that moment on.

Then I watched him throughout the Dirty Mind, Controversy, and 1999 eras as he became loved by more people until he absolutely exploded with Purple Rain and with each era, there was always someone who would say how much they absolutey love his music but they just wish he wasn't so sissified because it makes them embarassed to tell people that they like him. Then, they would make excuses for him such as he's not gay, he just looks that way and is very much in touch with his feminine side. All excuses that were not really defending Prince, but defending themselves for liking him. So what does Prince do next? Then he starts doing gestures, writing lyrics, and dressing even more feminine which makes it even harder and harder for them to defend themselves. It was almost like flaunting in their faces that a gay man can not only throwdown just as hard as a straight man, but he can throwdown even HARDER than a straight man to the point that even homophobes couldn't resist the music and then turning the tables and getting revenge on them by flaunting his image so much that there's no way in hell they could defend it to people that were talking about them for liking Prince. I was absolutely LOVING it!

All this was a huge influence on me because it taught me gay strength rather than being ashamed of myself like a damn fool.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/29/12 21:17pm]

vainandy said:

He definitely played a huge part in me accepting my sexuality myself and coming out years later due to him flaunting his absolute badass "I don't give a fuck what you think" attitude in people's faces and then being powerful enough that he could fuck someone up if they dared to get in his face with some bullshit. I admired this the most about him even more than the music that he made which I loved.

Before Prince, when I thought of a gay man, I thought of the stereotypes that people were associating gay people with which were usually "nerdy", "dorky", "weak" stereotypes of feminine men who were into things like classical music, violins, ballet, opera, and all the other things that people considered "uncool". I also thought of the stereotypes that gay people were people who were weak and could be bullied and instead of seeking revenge, they would sit and cry in front of the bullies like a damn fool and get messed with even more. Images that I absolutely could not STAND. Then I saw Prince on "American Bandstand" in the early part of the year 1980. I instantly could see that not only was he gay, but he was gay as HELL to the point that even Stevie Wonder could see it. This bitch came out in the skintight satin spandex pants that only women on TV and hookers were wearing. I had seen them on Rod Stewart and Leif Garrett but they didn't have the gestures that Prince had. He actually pranced across that stage all through both performances and stood with his hand all on his hip and his other hand on his head in his hair. And then he would point to each band member as he introduced them to Dick Clark ever so fish with his hand all up in the air. And that hair! The only people I saw that hairstyle on was black women. Yeah, a very few black men had a perm back then but it didn't look a third as womanly as it did on Prince. And that bitch could sling that hair too better than all three of Charlie's Angels put together. Oh, he was definitely gay, but he wasn't the classical music, violin lesson taking, ballet dancing queens that gay men were being associated with. He was getting off harder than straight people would and then he did "Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad" and he looked like if someone messed with him, he would bash them over the head with his guitar and then shove it up their ass. He had pure BADASS attitude and I absolutely LOVED it from that moment on.

Then I watched him throughout the Dirty Mind, Controversy, and 1999 eras as he became loved by more people until he absolutely exploded with Purple Rain and with each era, there was always someone who would say how much they absolutey love his music but they just wish he wasn't so sissified because it makes them embarassed to tell people that they like him. Then, they would make excuses for him such as he's not gay, he just looks that way and is very much in touch with his feminine side. All excuses that were not really defending Prince, but defending themselves for liking him. So what does Prince do next? Then he starts doing gestures, writing lyrics, and dressing even more feminine which makes it even harder and harder for them to defend themselves. It was almost like flaunting in their faces that a gay man can not only throwdown just as hard as a straight man, but he can throwdown even HARDER than a straight man to the point that even homophobes couldn't resist the music and then turning the tables and getting revenge on them by flaunting his image so much that there's no way in hell they could defend it to people that were talking about them for liking Prince. I was absolutely LOVING it!

All this was a huge influence on me because it taught me gay strength rather than being ashamed of myself like a damn fool.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/29/12 21:17pm]

Really nice read and just what I was looking for too. Thanks VainAndy.

andykeen said:

imago said:

I'm pretty sure he played with ambigously gay lyrics in the same way Morrissey did--sort of as a coming out without having to come out.

Do you think this was to attract a gay audience, or to be apart and find comfort from another isolated and oppressed group (Like that of Black people) or maybe just to appear different from everyone else as he was doing with the 'look' at the time....Rude boy springs to mind.

No, I don't think he was trying to court a gay audience.

He certainly wanted to court a white audience, but I really think his ambigiously gay lyrics were just what I stated--a way of coming out without coming out. Sort of like MJ's "In the Closet" did....You can easily say the lyrics are about this or that thing, but the word choice is so obviously flirting with homosexual themes regardless of what the artist openly says.

Prince isn't the first to do such things. I mean, the village people's YMCA was all about getting gay ass at the YMCA (which was apparently a place to hookup for gays). But, the lyrics seem benign enough to the jock crowd to be ok to sing along to.

Prince has buried the real prince so far down a hole (no pun intended), that I'm not sure we'll ever get to know the real Prince. But, from time to to time, one of his ambigously gay lyrics seems to bubble up and cause a few eyebrows to raise.

Whatever kinship with gay folks Prince ever had or felt, he swiftly decimated them with his current homophobic ideals.

When I was 8 years old (way back in 1990), Prince was a symbol of sexual freedom to me. Being completely into and one with yourself, enough to be able to be anything to anybody. That was empowering. I felt, as a little gay kid, that I admired this kind of freedom with oneself. Not feeling constrained and controlled by these impending issues society forces on folks. For boys, it's getting a girlfriend, being on the sports team, being a jock, being gruff and rough, etc. Prince showed that you could be masculine and feminine all at one time and it works.

And as I told people who asked me if I liked Prince because he was secretly gay, Prince ate more pussy than Ron Jeremy and that he did it in high heels and a painted face is awesome to me.

Too bad he ruined all of that.

Spinlight said:

Whatever kinship with gay folks Prince ever had or felt, he swiftly decimated them with his current homophobic ideals.

When I was 8 years old (way back in 1990), Prince was a symbol of sexual freedom to me. Being completely into and one with yourself, enough to be able to be anything to anybody. That was empowering. I felt, as a little gay kid, that I admired this kind of freedom with oneself. Not feeling constrained and controlled by these impending issues society forces on folks. For boys, it's getting a girlfriend, being on the sports team, being a jock, being gruff and rough, etc. Prince showed that you could be masculine and feminine all at one time and it works.

And as I told people who asked me if I liked Prince because he was secretly gay, Prince ate more pussy than Ron Jeremy and that he did it in high heels and a painted face is awesome to me.

Too bad he ruined all of that.

great post!

i always thought the prince of old wanted the boys to fancy him too. when he sang sexuality it was exactly as u said, being comfortable and secure within one's own skin rather than a big sweeping statement about his orientation. i don't buy prince being gay, or ever having been which made him even more of a libertarian.

He was more about sexuality period than anything that had to do with gay liberation. He used it as shock value as well as expression. His real views from what I heard was always conservative. It was just he was more bipartisan in the '80s.

Spinlight said:

Whatever kinship with gay folks Prince ever had or felt, he swiftly decimated them with his current homophobic ideals.

When I was 8 years old (way back in 1990), Prince was a symbol of sexual freedom to me. Being completely into and one with yourself, enough to be able to be anything to anybody. That was empowering. I felt, as a little gay kid, that I admired this kind of freedom with oneself. Not feeling constrained and controlled by these impending issues society forces on folks. For boys, it's getting a girlfriend, being on the sports team, being a jock, being gruff and rough, etc. Prince showed that you could be masculine and feminine all at one time and it works.

And as I told people who asked me if I liked Prince because he was secretly gay, Prince ate more pussy than Ron Jeremy and that he did it in high heels and a painted face is awesome to me.

Too bad he ruined all of that.

I like the majority of this post as I tend to like most of your posts, but since you never though he was gay I don't understand how "ruined all of that." I think that most people, even people who profess to be Christians, don't know that their notions about sexual limitations come from St. Augustine and not the Bible . However, as someone who professes to be Christian, I don't see where the Bible tells me that must be sexually repressed. I've been dating and married to the same woman for twenty years, and, as the Bible states, "a wife's breasts are to be pleasing to a husband." And, Song of Solomon is one of the most sexually explicit things that I have ever read. So, my freak flag is raised as high today as it was twenty years ago, making me a happily married man, and nothing about Prince’s current religious notions changes that for me.

*

So, I could understand how "he ruined all of that" if you thought he was gay, but if you never thought he was gay and you seemed to assume that he was involved in hetero relationships, I don't know how his present ideology has "ruined all of that." Without putting words in your mouth, I’m guessing that you are saying that his embracing of an orthodox religion that teaches that homosexuality is against the will of God means that he is less tolerant of homosexuality today as he was twelve years or so ago. But, since Prince has always used Christian imagery and the Christian narrative, I am surprised that it didn’t cause you to consider that he may one day make this current transition. Though while most Christians I know do think that homosexuality is against the will of God, most of them also voted for marriage equality (same sex marriage) because one’s personal belief is something different than the manner in which law treats everyone equally. Now, of course, most Christians will erroneously vote against marriage equality, so I can see how these types of actions would smack as ignorant and oppressive to you, but if Prince always had certain amounts of Christian ideals presented in his work I don't see how you couldn't have at least considered that Prince could then or one day be more embracing of narrowly defining what acceptable God-pleasing romantic relationships are. And, I'm not posing this question to be adversarial; I'm asking to understand how you responded to or engaged those lyrics when Prince was clearly using Christian imagery or the Christian narrative.

1725topp said:

Spinlight said:

Whatever kinship with gay folks Prince ever had or felt, he swiftly decimated them with his current homophobic ideals.

When I was 8 years old (way back in 1990), Prince was a symbol of sexual freedom to me. Being completely into and one with yourself, enough to be able to be anything to anybody. That was empowering. I felt, as a little gay kid, that I admired this kind of freedom with oneself. Not feeling constrained and controlled by these impending issues society forces on folks. For boys, it's getting a girlfriend, being on the sports team, being a jock, being gruff and rough, etc. Prince showed that you could be masculine and feminine all at one time and it works.

And as I told people who asked me if I liked Prince because he was secretly gay, Prince ate more pussy than Ron Jeremy and that he did it in high heels and a painted face is awesome to me.

Too bad he ruined all of that.

I like the majority of this post as I tend to like most of your posts, but since you never though he was gay I don't understand how "ruined all of that." I think that most people, even people who profess to be Christians, don't know that their notions about sexual limitations come from St. Augustine and not the Bible . However, as someone who professes to be Christian, I don't see where the Bible tells me that must be sexually repressed. I've been dating and married to the same woman for twenty years, and, as the Bible states, "a wife's breasts are to be pleasing to a husband." And, Song of Solomon is one of the most sexually explicit things that I have ever read. So, my freak flag is raised as high today as it was twenty years ago, making me a happily married man, and nothing about Prince’s current religious notions changes that for me.

*

So, I could understand how "he ruined all of that" if you thought he was gay, but if you never thought he was gay and you seemed to assume that he was involved in hetero relationships, I don't know how his present ideology has "ruined all of that." Without putting words in your mouth, I’m guessing that you are saying that his embracing of an orthodox religion that teaches that homosexuality is against the will of God means that he is less tolerant of homosexuality today as he was twelve years or so ago. But, since Prince has always used Christian imagery and the Christian narrative, I am surprised that it didn’t cause you to consider that he may one day make this current transition. Though while most Christians I know do think that homosexuality is against the will of God, most of them also voted for marriage equality (same sex marriage) because one’s personal belief is something different than the manner in which law treats everyone equally. Now, of course, most Christians will erroneously vote against marriage equality, so I can see how these types of actions would smack as ignorant and oppressive to you, but if Prince always had certain amounts of Christian ideals presented in his work I don't see how you couldn't have at least considered that Prince could then or one day be more embracing of narrowly defining what acceptable God-pleasing romantic relationships are. And, I'm not posing this question to be adversarial; I'm asking to understand how you responded to or engaged those lyrics when Prince was clearly using Christian imagery or the Christian narrative.

Fair post. And I always dig your posts. You are genuine as fuck and I really appreciate people who can create a discussion.

Growing up, I wasn't entirely aware of how gay life was interpreted to straight folks. You see, when you are gay you don't feel any different than a straight person, presumably. You just have feelings of a certain nature towards certain people and it's just as normal as white bread, just as American-feeling as apple pie and weddings and picket fences. At least, growing up in the suburbs of Baltimore, this is how I felt.

Prince entertained a side of my soul that I was interested in exploring. To know the presence of Christianity (due to its ubiquitousness in heteronormative society) but also their conflict with homosexuality is scary, to put it simply. Feeling like an outcast on the inside and trying to look as normal as possible is a strange thing to live, as a kid. Prince showed me that there were folks out there who could explore the entirety of their heart and not be ashamed about marrying these intense sexual feelings with absolute adulation of a person, and then perhaps leaving them as quickly as you came. Or living with them forever. Who knows how the wind would blow, right. This narrative is played out in a lot of Prince's 80's material. You have songs like "Forever In My Life" next to tracks like "U Got the Look" and "Hot Thing."

As I grew older and joined the real gay life by actually living around gay people I began to see just how anti-gay sentiment is so prevalent. How being gay is sort of a joke or an oddity, nothing like the environs of Paisley Park. And sure enough, as Prince grew older he began to swing in a direction that was less accepting and more closed off. I would say it began around the time he first started studying JW beliefs in 1997. You notice that every album after is stripped of the double entendres, stripped of the hypersexuality, and stripped of provocative themes.

It wasn't about knowing Prince was gay or not. That I knew Prince was not gay yet was fully comfortable taking on an almost Frank-N-Furter type role of sensationalized sensuality and still be a brilliant musician and also have a deep and flowing heart was like gospel to me. This was a guy who was more interested in exploring the roles of the genders, to be accepting of sexuality even if it wasn't his thing ("That voice was TOO deep!" - Birthday show, 1984), to be cognizant of a multicultural world by painting with all colors on the palette in his band, etc.

He is no longer this way. And it's heartbreaking.

spinlight,

Just like most who undergo a significant immersion, so to speak, I think it's natural to become more entrenched in certain beliefs, but as we know not only with most other people, but especially Prince, he always comes back to his own unique and particular Prince-ly perspective on balance, whether he calls it Uptown, Paisley Park, Lovesexy, or whatever, so I wouldn't be so heartbroken, or at least not anymore. His spiritual DNA has at least a 30 year track record which speaks of an all-inclusive pathway towards our higher selves, even if he himself diverged off track at certain points. We, you and I, know who he is, deep down. It's quite difficult for an artist of Prince's calibre to hide his true values.

love,

Spirit

NouveauDance said:

I think Prince isn't seen as a gay icon because he's a heterosexual male and is more androgynous than gay in terms of general appeal and image. I'd guess he's more of an outsiders' icon, more genderfuck and queer than gay. Gay icons tend to be female, or if they're male, but straight, more mainstream physically attractive and 'masculine.'

Yeah, Prince used androgyny in the '80s and '90s to create controvery and the shock value helped get him noticed and stand out, like Jimi did in the '60s:

This book excerpt is from Jimi Hendrix the Ultimate Experience by Johnny Black...

Jimi's hair and clothes were inspired by Little Richard.

Jimi would also masterbate his guitar between his legs like it was his penis and also lick it. This all was a big influence on Prince.

Mick Jagger in the '60s and '70s:

Mick on a giant inflated penis.

Bowie in the '70s:

Alice Cooper in the '70s:

Lou Reed in the '70s:

Iggy Pop:

Andre Foxxe in Parliament Funkadelic:

And many others.

Cheech and Chong parodied the androgyny in rock:

[Edited 12/1/12 20:42pm]

Spinlight said:

Fair post. And I always dig your posts. You are genuine as fuck and I really appreciate people who can create a discussion.

Growing up, I wasn't entirely aware of how gay life was interpreted to straight folks. You see, when you are gay you don't feel any different than a straight person, presumably. You just have feelings of a certain nature towards certain people and it's just as normal as white bread, just as American-feeling as apple pie and weddings and picket fences. At least, growing up in the suburbs of Baltimore, this is how I felt.

Prince entertained a side of my soul that I was interested in exploring. To know the presence of Christianity (due to its ubiquitousness in heteronormative society) but also their conflict with homosexuality is scary, to put it simply. Feeling like an outcast on the inside and trying to look as normal as possible is a strange thing to live, as a kid. Prince showed me that there were folks out there who could explore the entirety of their heart and not be ashamed about marrying these intense sexual feelings with absolute adulation of a person, and then perhaps leaving them as quickly as you came. Or living with them forever. Who knows how the wind would blow, right. This narrative is played out in a lot of Prince's 80's material. You have songs like "Forever In My Life" next to tracks like "U Got the Look" and "Hot Thing."

As I grew older and joined the real gay life by actually living around gay people I began to see just how anti-gay sentiment is so prevalent. How being gay is sort of a joke or an oddity, nothing like the environs of Paisley Park. And sure enough, as Prince grew older he began to swing in a direction that was less accepting and more closed off. I would say it began around the time he first started studying JW beliefs in 1997. You notice that every album after is stripped of the double entendres, stripped of the hypersexuality, and stripped of provocative themes.

It wasn't about knowing Prince was gay or not. That I knew Prince was not gay yet was fully comfortable taking on an almost Frank-N-Furter type role of sensationalized sensuality and still be a brilliant musician and also have a deep and flowing heart was like gospel to me. This was a guy who was more interested in exploring the roles of the genders, to be accepting of sexuality even if it wasn't his thing ("That voice was TOO deep!" - Birthday show, 1984), to be cognizant of a multicultural world by painting with all colors on the palette in his band, etc.

He is no longer this way. And it's heartbreaking.

Thanks for the kind words, and I get what you are saying that for you, as for me, Prince represented unrestricted, unbridled creativity and exploration, which worked to inspire (for lack of a better word) you to explore who you are. And, I can say that this is very similar to how Prince inspired me. And now that you have explained it, for one of the very few times in my life I have no words because I am touched by your pain. I am not going to try to relate it to something that I might experience because I don't think I can. What I will do is shut up now, and go think. And as cliché and corny as my final words may sound, Peace and Be Wild. You are still you even if Prince is no longer the dude that inspired you. It's yo' paint brush now. Paint what you desire.