We [the hardcore] were once referred to as a challenging and sophisticated fanbase- [yes you too Pook!] but now looking at what so many on here seem to get excited about beggars belief. What the hell happened!.

It's great that he's still around and there never is a dull moment where each year brings a new project / tour etc. However the majority on here seem to make excuse after excuse for his lack of quality control. Maybe it's just a case of his fan base getting younger and being brough up through the X-Fcator / American Idol generation, maybe I'm getting too old or maybe it's both!.

Come on, take a close hard listen to the old stuff - [and I won't apologise for refereing to the 80's golden era] and compare it to the new stuff. It's mostly awful - that's not an IMHO , that's a fact!

My message is do not settle for second best, he is not like other ledgends as he can turn it on like no other when he chooses to but for some bizarre reason he chooses not too!. Raise the bar people!

You get props for the Pook comment which was F.A.H.

but the rest of that same ol same ol bullshit about a rock star 50 years in his career..you REALLY think you are saying something?

logg off kid

The fans in general have lowered their expectations regarding Prince's new recordings and are happier with less. This should be common knowledge by this point.

So, what was your point again?

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

But this whole steeze is akin to the fucking James Brown, Michael Jackson, Prince on the same stage shit!

Yall should nbe mad about that not the releases of a rock star 30 years out of his primce

you dont see U2 fans, Stones fans, Men Without Hats fans, Nu Shooz fans expecting greatness in 2012.

50% of yall are deluded. Im not kidding.

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

Well, now I fail to see your point in turn.

That song came out in 1996 during an entirely different musical climate.

[Edited 10/29/12 8:41am]

Back to your question:

Being a fan of his new stuff (90s until now) means to like mainly conventional pop music (old school), well crafted, but without any edge.

funkyhead said:

Come on, take a close hard listen to the old stuff - [and I won't apologise for refereing to the 80's golden era] and compare it to the new stuff. It's mostly awful - that's not an IMHO , that's a fact!

My message is do not settle for second best, he is not like other ledgends as he can turn it on like no other when he chooses to but for some bizarre reason he chooses not too!. Raise the bar people!

that's a fact!

actually that is an opinion - personally I would rather listen to 'colonized mind' or 'future soul song' then 'purple rain' - preference of music is an individual choice - one of the neat things about Prince is that he has such a wide range of styles in his catalogue

some bizarre reason he chooses not too!

I have been a fan since the 1999 album - so have grown up along with him and his music. For anyone to say he is not doing his best - the question would be - why not? It is silly to think he isn't - you may not like what he is doing but it has been obvious since the beginning that he is simply doing whatever moves him artistically at the time - so deal with it and move on

For example I really did not like the 'jazz years' in the early 00's - but do consider it as part of the whole story - so what? just a few more chapters to add to the interesting novel that has been Prince all of these years.

[Edited 10/29/12 8:51am]

novabrkr said:

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

Well, now I fail to see your point in turn.

That song came out in 1996 during an entirely different musical climate.

[Edited 10/29/12 8:41am]

It was a joke...

Right Back Here In My Arms Appreciation

funkomatic said:

Meloh9 said:

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

Anything can be a "hit" if marketed through the machine correctly. I don't think hits is really the subject in discussion, folks are debating quality. He's too talented to completely write off, and too prolific for me to have to like every song.

Once again my post was a joke and kind of off-topic!

The marketing machinery can do a lot, but not everything.

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

lol, and just to totally contradict myself all opionions count!! - you like what you like.

I still think that the old school fan base which is where is I come from have much, much higher expectations coz we lived the glory days in real time and know that he can do so much more.

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

lol, and just to totally contradict myself all opionions count!! - you like what you like.

I still think that the old school fan base which is where is I come from have much, much higher expectations coz we lived the glory days in real time and know that he can do so much more..

Jughead (and the Tony M era in general).

Can fan expecations get more dumbed down that this stuff?

after those weak tracks:

I have really low (no?) expectations to Prince anymore.

Purple and Gold,

Hot Summer,

Cause & Effect,

R&R Love Affair,

also the albums.... 3121, Planet Earth and 20Ten.

Makes me:

His "internet singles" from the last couple of years have been admittedly weak, but I don't think many of the non-album tracks from the late-80s and early-90s were that great either ("Escape", "Loveleft, Loveright", "Get Off" and so on).

novabrkr said:

His "internet singles" from the last couple of years have been admittedly weak, but I don't think many of the non-album tracks from the late-80s and early-90s were that great either ("Escape", "Loveleft, Loveright", "Get Off" and so on).

His ambition to create something really genius was gone with the Batman album. From then on it wasn't about pushing the envelope anymore, but about surviving as a big pop artist.

funkyhead said:

funkomatic said:

I think he has a point. Something's not right, if fans actually really think that a song like "Right back here in my arms" could be a huge hit.

lol, and just to totally contradict myself all opionions count!! - you like what you like.

I still think that the old school fan base which is where is I come from have much, much higher expectations coz we lived the glory days in real time and know that he can do so much more..

I agree with you. A new fan is attracted to a more or less conservative old school artist, whereas the fans who grew up with Prince in the 80s were attracted by the fact that his music was daring, edgy and controversial.

Still I don't want the Old School music come back, but the quality that came with it.

Once prince is not doing it yall way its the highway, and its ur opinion hunny not a fact, I admit we know he is capable of giving us so much more, because we know of his talent, but if he wants to give us what's in his heart, who am I to complain, let him do him, he is at the age of not only pleasing his fans, but making himself happy....If u don't believe in Prince anymore, simply find someone u can relate 2...but making statements like these, is not going to change his music.

funkomatic said:

novabrkr said:

His "internet singles" from the last couple of years have been admittedly weak, but I don't think many of the non-album tracks from the late-80s and early-90s were that great either ("Escape", "Loveleft, Loveright", "Get Off" and so on).

His ambition to create something really genius was gone with the Batman album. From then on it wasn't about pushing the envelope anymore, but about surviving as a big pop artist.

Really? Seems to me that he had it all set up with WB in 1992 to not only "survive as a pop artist" but to thrive as one. He had one of the bigge$t contract$ ever, and enormous amount of promotion for his albums, etc.

Then, in 1993 Prince started to unwind it all: He changed his name to , put slave on his face, shut down Paisley Park Records, opened up NPG records, and began publicly feuding with his bosses. Some of the most anti pop, rebellious, rock star behavior ever seen from a firmly established global superstar.

On top of all of that anti establishment PR, he started "panning for gold" (as Jim Walsh said) and made some of the most stellar music of his career. From The Undertaker to Exodus to Come to The Gold Experience, etc he was totally pushing the envelope and seemed hellbent on NOT being a pop artist in any conventional sense.

Then, from 1996 to 1999 he went the popstar route again (Emancipation, Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic) only to, in 2000, change his name back to Prince and go through his, completely unpopstar-ish, Rainbow Children era complete with horns and funky dogma.

Overall, I think that Prince is actually very challenging to his fans and always has been. I think if the internet would've been around in 1985, you'd have seen some serious bitching and crying about Around The World in a Day. Sure, it is widely accepted as hip now, but back then many a Prince fan were losing their minds and jumping off of the purple train.

[Edited 10/29/12 20:15pm]

funkyhead said:

We [the hardcore] were once referred to as a challenging and sophisticated fanbase- [yes you too Pook!] but now looking at what so many on here seem to get excited about beggars belief. What the hell happened!.

It's great that he's still around and there never is a dull moment where each year brings a new project / tour etc. However the majority on here seem to make excuse after excuse for his lack of quality control. Maybe it's just a case of his fan base getting younger and being brough up through the X-Fcator / American Idol generation, maybe I'm getting too old or maybe it's both!.

Come on, take a close hard listen to the old stuff - [and I won't apologise for refereing to the 80's golden era] and compare it to the new stuff. It's mostly awful - that's not an IMHO , that's a fact!

My message is do not settle for second best, he is not like other ledgends as he can turn it on like no other when he chooses to but for some bizarre reason he chooses not too!. Raise the bar people!

skywalker said:

funkomatic said:

His ambition to create something really genius was gone with the Batman album. From then on it wasn't about pushing the envelope anymore, but about surviving as a big pop artist.

Really? Seems to me that he had it all set up with WB in 1992 to not only "survive as a pop artist" but to thrive as one. He had one of the bigge$t contract$ ever, and enormous amount of promotion for his albums, etc.

You talk about money, I talk about the music and its perception. Consider the changing musical landscape back then, Prince wasn't ahead of his time anymore. He had to follow trends to make a point again. Even if D&P was a big hit with the mainstream, the creative force was gone.

Then, in 1993 Prince started to unwind it all: He changed his name to , put slave on his face, shut down Paisley Park Records, opened up NPG records, and began publicly feuding with his bosses. Some of the most anti pop, rebellious, rock star behavior ever seen from a firmly established global superstar.

Again this had nothing to do with the music.

On top of all of that anti establishment PR, he started "panning for gold" (as Jim Walsh said) and made some of the most stellar music of his career. From The Undertaker to Exodus to Come to The Gold Experience, etc he was totally pushing the envelope and seemed hellbent on NOT being a pop artist in any conventional sense.

I know there are a lot of people here on the org who are fans of this period. Nonetheless the music wasn't pushing anything. It was either conventional or in case of a more modern approach creatively not strong enough. He was no longer able to update his sound convincingly.

Then, from 1996 to 1999 he went the popstar route again (Emancipation, Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic) only to, in 2000, change his name back to Prince and go through his, completely unpopstar-ish, Rainbow Children era complete with horns and funky dogma.

After the popstar route didn't work out anymore, he actually went for something artistically more challenging for about 3 years. A direction I'd like him to explore further. Instead he chose to go the popstar route once again.

Overall, I think that Prince is actually very challenging to his fans and always has been. I think if the internet would've been around in 1985, you'd have seen some serious bitching and crying about Around The World in a Day. Sure, it is widely accepted as hip now, but back then many a Prince fan were losing their minds and jumping off of the purple train.

Challenging in what sense? That he sells out to every genre possible?

Apropos bitching: Since you mentioned this a lot, I don't really get what point you're trying to make. There was, there is and always will be bitching. People are stupid, know shit etc. Do you hope that his latter albums people bitch about will get the same recognition in the future as ATWIAD did in the end?

[Edited 10/29/12 20:15pm]

funkomatic said:

novabrkr said:

His "internet singles" from the last couple of years have been admittedly weak, but I don't think many of the non-album tracks from the late-80s and early-90s were that great either ("Escape", "Loveleft, Loveright", "Get Off" and so on).

His ambition to create something really genius was gone with the Batman album. From then on it wasn't about pushing the envelope anymore, but about surviving as a big pop artist.

Horseshit.

For the reasons already explicated above by skywalker. You don't do very good job at "refuting" them in your reply either.

novabrkr said:

funkomatic said:

His ambition to create something really genius was gone with the Batman album. From then on it wasn't about pushing the envelope anymore, but about surviving as a big pop artist.

Horseshit.

For the reasons already explicated above by skywalker. You don't do very good job at "refuting" them in your reply either.

Then please try to give me your summary of Prince's development as an artist in 2 sentences.

funkyhead said:

It's great that he's still around and there never is a dull moment where each year brings a new project / tour etc.

Until, of course, we hear it.

funkomatic said:

novabrkr said:

Horseshit.

For the reasons already explicated above by skywalker. You don't do very good job at "refuting" them in your reply either.

Then please try to give me your summary of Prince's development as an artist in 2 sentences.

I have no interest to get into arguments with individuals that so grossly overlook the facts and use their own arbitrary interpretations of them to support their views.

I don't get the whining. If you only like his music from 84-92, then just listen to that. I don't listen to the jazzy instrumental stuff or planet earth because, in my opinion, it's crap. Guess what, there are probably fans that listen to exclusively the jazzy instrumental stuff and planet earth. Why? Cuz everyone has a different opinion. Even Prince. He likes the new stuff he's putting out, and if you don't, then don't buy it/download it/listen to it.

Do people really believe Prince sits in the studio and thinks, "what can I record that will be exactly what everyone wants, regardless of what I feel like recording? I can't wait to hear what BatDance319 from Prince.org thinks about my new song!" Nope, that's the pop drivel that floods the radio. If you've been a fan for any length of time, you know he's not going to hit a homerun every time at bat, nor will he put out anything that he doesn't approve of, nor will he do what's expected. Enjoy the ride or get off the roller coaster.

I don't like bananas or quinoa, so I don't eat them. Why would I go on bananafans.org or quinoa-rocks.com and bitch about them?

Now I'm whining about people whining. Xzibit would be proud.

Chas

Chas said:

I don't get the whining. If you only like his music from 84-92, then just listen to that. I don't listen to the jazzy instrumental stuff or planet earth because, in my opinion, it's crap. Guess what, there are probably fans that listen to exclusively the jazzy instrumental stuff and planet earth. Why? Cuz everyone has a different opinion. Even Prince. He likes the new stuff he's putting out, and if you don't, then don't buy it/download it/listen to it.

Do people really believe Prince sits in the studio and thinks, "what can I record that will be exactly what everyone wants, regardless of what I feel like recording? I can't wait to hear what BatDance319 from Prince.org thinks about my new song!" Nope, that's the pop drivel that floods the radio. If you've been a fan for any length of time, you know he's not going to hit a homerun every time at bat, nor will he put out anything that he doesn't approve of, nor will he do what's expected. Enjoy the ride or get off the roller coaster.

I don't like bananas or quinoa, so I don't eat them. Why would I go on bananafans.org or quinoa-rocks.com and bitch about them?

Now I'm whining about people whining. Xzibit would be proud.

Chas

True!

funkomatic said:

skywalker said:

Really? Seems to me that he had it all set up with WB in 1992 to not only "survive as a pop artist" but to thrive as one. He had one of the bigge$t contract$ ever, and enormous amount of promotion for his albums, etc.

You talk about money, I talk about the music and its perception. Consider the changing musical landscape back then, Prince wasn't ahead of his time anymore. He had to follow trends to make a point again. Even if D&P was a big hit with the mainstream, the creative force was gone.

I agree that around 1990 Prince was biting other trends hard ie rap.

One could argue that he had always done this to an extent. I mean, his first two albums weren't really groundbreaking or different than what was already happening.

People often don't acknowledge this, but even Dirty Mind was influenced by other punk/New Wave/British things going on at the time. Dirty Mind wasn't created in a vacuum.. that album wears it's influences like Prince wore his bikini briefs.

I disagree that "the creative force" was gone after '88. I think that Prince realized that the general public and casual fan wasn't as into his genius as much as he was. Sure, he could release another Parade, Sign O' The Times, or Lovesexy but those albums didn't pay the bills for Paisley Park. Being an artist has it's price, and I think he has always straddled the line between artist and pop star relatively well.

I have read that Prince was quite disheartened by the lack of success in the US for lovesexy (playing the tour to half filled venues, etc). Can you imagine that? Only 4 years after Purple Rain and Prince had could not fill an arena as well as he can now?

Then, in 1993 Prince started to unwind it all: He changed his name to , put slave on his face, shut down Paisley Park Records, opened up NPG records, and began publicly feuding with his bosses. Some of the most anti pop, rebellious, rock star behavior ever seen from a firmly established global superstar.

Again this had nothing to do with the music.

Neither does your claim that, from 1989 on, Prince was about "surviving as a big pop artist." Which is what I was refuting. Pop artists that wanna survive don't make the moves he made in the 90's like ditching his label, etc.

On top of all of that anti establishment PR, he started "panning for gold" (as Jim Walsh said) and made some of the most stellar music of his career. From The Undertaker to Exodus to Come to The Gold Experience, etc he was totally pushing the envelope and seemed hellbent on NOT being a pop artist in any conventional sense.

I know there are a lot of people here on the org who are fans of this period. Nonetheless the music wasn't pushing anything. It was either conventional or in case of a more modern approach creatively not strong enough. He was no longer able to update his sound convincingly.

If you are not a fan of this period, that's on you. I cannot dissuade you of your opinion. That's cool. I don't like the Parade era as much as most Prince fans seem to. Many happen to think that the 1993-1995 era is one of his best ever with some of his most exciting material. All you have to do is read the linear notes by Jim Walsh for great evidence that Prince WAS pushing and stretching artistically in ways that he hadn't before.

Then, from 1996 to 1999 he went the popstar route again (Emancipation, Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic) only to, in 2000, change his name back to Prince and go through his, completely unpopstar-ish, Rainbow Children era complete with horns and funky dogma.

After the popstar route didn't work out anymore, he actually went for something artistically more challenging for about 3 years. A direction I'd like him to explore further. Instead he chose to go the popstar route once again.

As I said before, I would argue that Prince always straddles the line between pop/rock star and artist. That's part of his genius. You can see this even as far back as 1978.

Overall, I think that Prince is actually very challenging to his fans and always has been. I think if the internet would've been around in 1985, you'd have seen some serious bitching and crying about Around The World in a Day. Sure, it is widely accepted as hip now, but back then many a Prince fan were losing their minds and jumping off of the purple train.

Challenging in what sense? That he sells out to every genre possible?

Apropos bitching: Since you mentioned this a lot, I don't really get what point you're trying to make. There was, there is and always will be bitching. People are stupid, know shit etc. Do you hope that his latter albums people bitch about will get the same recognition in the future as ATWIAD did in the end?

It's a bit pejorative to state it as "he sells out to every genre possible".

I always thought a big part of Prince's appeal is that he would do his take on all sorts of genres, and yes, I think it is challenging to people that Prince incorporates so many different flavors of music into the mix. Sometimes this occurs within the span of 2 to 3 songs on the same album.

The point I am making: I don't agree with your statement that, from 1989 onwards, Prince was only "about surviving as a big pop artist." There are many examples of him still pushing boundaries (both musically and professionally) afterwards. Didn't he make a Grammy nominated instrumental album in 2003?

Without a doubt, Prince has moments where he seems content to be a superstar, where he seemed like he was just coasting. However, even these moments he was/is only taking it easy by Prince standards. Prince can still kill it whenever he wants to*.

* Ever read the Rollingstone magazine review of Sign O' The Times? Even with THAT album in 1987 Prince was being accused of holding back. The review ends like this:

"He is an artist capable of altering popular consciousness in concrete ways, but Sign o' the Times seems unlikely to alter anything more profound than the face of the hit parade. Nothing wrong with that, but it's rather like the story about Jesus feeding the multitudes with miraculous loaves and fishes. Such fundamental nourishment is always appreciated. But when a full-blown feast is so obviously within Prince's capabilities, one wonders: Why doesn't he go for it?"

[Edited 10/30/12 7:42am]

novabrkr said:

funkomatic said:

Then please try to give me your summary of Prince's development as an artist in 2 sentences.

I have no interest to get into arguments with individuals that so grossly overlook the facts and use their own arbitrary interpretations of them to support their views.

Okay, then thanks for taking part in this discussion by saying "Horseshit" and running away because your discussion partner is not worth it!