Giovanni said :

Prince simply heard the riff, liked it, and then wrote everything else around it, turning it into the jam we know and love.

Funksterr said : but to be clear Andre has specificaly said over the years that he didn't feel Prince stole from or plagiarised him. He just felt he had no path to his own success if he stayed in the backing band.

I agree with both of these comments- the thing is we only ever hear the other side of the story - never Prince's. Artists / musicians, like many of us, have ego's to a greater or lesser degree. It is like when you hear Wendy talk, she seems to have a little more ego than Lisa so their input / influence on Prince songs tends to sound greater when Wendy talks compared to when Lisa explains how a song may have been formed.

I've only ever read that whilst P and Andre were jamming / rehearsing together, Andre came up with a cool bass line (even that may have been triggered or inspired by something Prince was counter playing at the time) and Prince liked the bass line, went off and wrote Do Me Baby and incorporated said bass line.

Does that mean Andre wrote Do Me Baby? Of course not, Prince wrote the lyrics, sentiment and tone of the song, the drums, keyboard part, melody etc. I'm not convinced that playing a bass riff whilst jamming should even constitute a co-written credit - it's not like they sat down together and discussed the formation of the song and Andre said "hey, what about this? I think it'd fit perfectly with what we're creating here !" That's co-writing even if the contribution was limited to a bass line (allbeit a great one !).

Didn't I read on another post here, just the other day, that Michael B came up with the drum beat to Willing and Able whilst thinking about writing a Ska track? Prince heard it and incorporated it into what became the non-Ska track Willing and Able - so, to me at least, Michael B has played next to no part in actually writing the song - Prince has taken a beat and come up with the theme, melody, lyrics etc. No co-credit required, surely? "Co" meaning something they did/created together - not a riff or beat or note played in a jam session.

Why do some automatically jump to the conclusion that "P jacked this" or a band member wrote this lyric because in rehearsal he said "man, let's go for it today, let's go crazy" and lo and behold Prince "steals" his "work" by writing "Let's go crazy" later that day !! Is casually playing a drum beat much different to making a casual comment that later becomes a lyric or song title??

Having written so many amazing songs and being such an amazing musician, I would have thought the automatic default for fans should be "no, Prince did it unless he says so and/or gives credit" ?!?!?

Trouble is, he never talks about it or why a band member left and they don't talk anymore - we only ever here the other side's story which is naturally going to have their spin, ego and beef woven into it. So maybe some shouldn't automatically revert to "Prince is a jerk for kicking this person to the kerb" or "he jacked that song" or "he can't maintain a relationship with old friends" etc - we know nothing of what goes on - only what one side chooses to impart and that is to invariably paint themselves in a better light, whether that be as a human being or as an artist or both.

I'm not saying he is the perfect person, of course not. But being the leader and the focal point for every song, album, video and concert can't be easy. If there is a "bad" show, does anyone say "yeah, I saw that Revolution concert and it wasn't great?" No, it is Prince that gets the blame and Prince who takes the credit when things are lauded.

Similarly, it can't be easy managing a bunch of creative people who may have their own ideas, want input, maybe even crave their own stardom - in part based on the confidence Prince may have enhanced within them and know-how he has shared?

So, why jump on any tenuous strain of information and immediately conclude Prince was bad, stole something etc ?

Hey ho, just my 2 pence worth.

More interesting is the thought of these 2 old friends (Andre and his mom were seemingly so helpful and important to a young Prince at what apparently seemed a difficult time for him) getting back on stage together for song P gave to him (like he did countless others to The Time, Sheila E and so on).

Feel good factor story !!

[Edited 11/1/12 10:34am]

let me get this straight.

we have bootlegs of just about every gig Prince has done thus far including every fart,giggle and scream that Shelby and the other background singers have bellowed from their well-rehearsed mouths. Please,for the sake of all humanity somebody tell me that recorders were rolling when PRINCE JAMMED THE DANCE ELECTRIC WITH ANDRE CYMONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seems to be some confusion about AC's claim. I'm just going off the interview and the subsequent reported comments by other members of the Revolution. What is obvious is that AC has some strong feelings around this so it seems that it may have been a significant contribution.

just for clarity here's the quote from the interview with waxpoetics:

Tell me about the stories about you not getting credit for work you did.

Because Prince and I were so close, I never thought about whether I was ripping him off or he was ripping me off. Literally, we were learning how to do what we do. My bedroom was in the attic, his bedroom was in the basement. I’d write a song and come down and play it for him. He’d write a song and come and play it for me. That was the reality. One day, we were rehearsing to do our tour. Some of the band members loved the groove I was jamming on. Prince came in and he jumped in the jam. He recorded it and came back the next day with lyrics and it was the song “Controversy.” In the way we grew up and developed, I didn’t think anything of it. But Matt Fink and Bobby Z, when they heard it, they said, “That’s André’s song.” Prince said something… I realized at that moment, if I stay in this situation, I will never get credit for anything creative that I do. So I quit.

What did Prince say?

He said basically, “Well, guess who is gonna get the credit?” That’s when I realized things had changed, and I just went to do my own thing.

funkyhead said:

just for clarity here's the quote from the interview with waxpoetics:

Tell me about the stories about you not getting credit for work you did.

Because Prince and I were so close, I never thought about whether I was ripping him off or he was ripping me off. Literally, we were learning how to do what we do. My bedroom was in the attic, his bedroom was in the basement. I’d write a song and come down and play it for him. He’d write a song and come and play it for me. That was the reality. One day, we were rehearsing to do our tour. Some of the band members loved the groove I was jamming on. Prince came in and he jumped in the jam. He recorded it and came back the next day with lyrics and it was the song “Controversy.” In the way we grew up and developed, I didn’t think anything of it. But Matt Fink and Bobby Z, when they heard it, they said, “That’s André’s song.” Prince said something… I realized at that moment, if I stay in this situation, I will never get credit for anything creative that I do. So I quit.

What did Prince say?

He said basically, “Well, guess who is gonna get the credit?” That’s when I realized things had changed, and I just went to do my own thing.

Seems like the problem is this: Even back then, Prince was Prince and Andre was not.

What I mean is, even if Andre had "Controversy" as his song, would it have made a difference? Would he be famous? Would anyone outside of Prince fandom know who he is? "Controversy" was not actually a huge hit. It is a fan favorite for sure, but it's not like a "Nothing Compares 2 U" situation.

that is interesting, funkyhead.

I think the key words here are "groove" and "jamming on" - where is the line drawn here between a co-writing credit or not?

If by a "groove" we mean a beat and a bass line - that is a long way short of anything representing a song or a collaborative effort to write a song. Someone has to take that rhythmn and give it a structure, lyrics etc.

maybe a "groove inspiration by Andre Cymone" liner note on the album may have been fair but that probably doesn't qualify for a share of the writing royalties and probably rightly so.

Who is to know whether Andre's groove came about (even subconsciously) because of something Bobby Z, Prince or Dez did the day or week before?

Again, we weren't there so.........

[Edited 11/1/12 11:00am]

you could also argue if AC was left with the bare bones of the jam session would he have turned into the masterpiece that P did. Reading the quote from the interview it does sound that he deserved a co-write.

perhaps it also highlights that to make it to the top in the buisness you have to have a ruthless streak..something P seems to have in abundance!

skywalker said:

funkyhead said:

just for clarity here's the quote from the interview with waxpoetics:

Tell me about the stories about you not getting credit for work you did.

Because Prince and I were so close, I never thought about whether I was ripping him off or he was ripping me off. Literally, we were learning how to do what we do. My bedroom was in the attic, his bedroom was in the basement. I’d write a song and come down and play it for him. He’d write a song and come and play it for me. That was the reality. One day, we were rehearsing to do our tour. Some of the band members loved the groove I was jamming on. Prince came in and he jumped in the jam. He recorded it and came back the next day with lyrics and it was the song “Controversy.” In the way we grew up and developed, I didn’t think anything of it. But Matt Fink and Bobby Z, when they heard it, they said, “That’s André’s song.” Prince said something… I realized at that moment, if I stay in this situation, I will never get credit for anything creative that I do. So I quit.

What did Prince say?

He said basically, “Well, guess who is gonna get the credit?” That’s when I realized things had changed, and I just went to do my own thing.

Seems like the problem is this: Even back then, Prince was Prince and Andre was not.

What I mean is, even if Andre had "Controversy" as his song, would it have made a difference? Would he be famous? Would anyone outside of Prince fandom know who he is? "Controversy" was not actually a huge hit. It is a fan favorite for sure, but it's not like a "Nothing Compares 2 U" situation.

It seems the issue was cowritting credit

If Andre recognized that Prince would give credit due (he might have continued with Prince)

Prince could have had someone who could write/produce music in his camp like many of the band back then could: very good music at that.

Andre did go on to help make Jodi Watley very famous in the 1980s, and he was know for it

If Controversy was written during/after the Purple Reign it could have been a Nothing Compares 2 U

I hear what you're saying though, both sides are possibilities

This notion of credit is a common problem for compositions that arise out of jam sessions, and plagued jazz artists especially.

I think it was Eric Leeds or Bobby Z that I read interviewed (I'm thinking more Leeds?) but whoever it was talked about the difference between a jam and a song.... and that Prince had the knack for taking a jam and turning it into a structure, composition, and lyrics that made it a digestable, listenable song. Not everyone can do that.

That isn't to say Andre didn't make significant contributions to what we have now identified as Prince's songs. Any listen to some of the tracks on "Controversy" will note how reliant they are on the bassline--Let's Work, Controversy, and Do Me Baby. Prince is/can be a badass bass player, so it's quite possible these are his. But much of Controversy is a bass-man's album. I wouldn't be surprised if Andre inspired/contributed to that. But a bassline is not a song.

[Edited 11/2/12 9:19am]

^ Good point about P's ability to package up the elements into a song.

[Edited 11/2/12 14:00pm]

Yes !!! I've been waiting for this .

NuPwrSoul said:

This notion of credit is a common problem for compositions that arise out of jam sessions, and plagued jazz artists especially.

I think it was Eric Leeds or Bobby Z that I read interviewed (I'm thinking more Leeds?) but whoever it was talked about the difference between a jam and a song.... and that Prince had the knack for taking a jam and turning it into a structure, composition, and lyrics that made it a digestable, listenable song. Not everyone can do that.

That isn't to say Andre didn't make significant contributions to what we have now identified as Prince's songs. Any listen to some of the tracks on "Controversy" will note how reliant they are on the bassline--Let's Work, Controversy, and Do Me Baby. Prince is/can be a badass bass player, so it's quite possible these are his. But much of Controversy is a bass-man's album. I wouldn't be surprised if Andre inspired/contributed to that. But a bassline is not a song.

[Edited 11/2/12 9:19am]

The Rebels didn't say "Hey that's Andre's bassline". They said "Hey that's Andre's song". Andre plays multiple instruments, not just bass. It was his job to rehearse the band. They jammed sometimes on Andre's music to keep rehearsal fresh. Prince heard the tapes and sometimes became inspired to write new songs, likely figuring since it was his band it was his song.

i was just thinking about controversy today .. i was thinking how dirty mind is great but co written .. when u were mine is great .. so i thought even tho dirty mind is so good prince can still pull a when u were mine .. then i was thinking about do me baby the same way .. and thinking that well prince wrote controversy .. so again .. prince can do it on his own .. as it is well known that do me baby started with andre .. now i am reading these quotes and .. ya know what .. prince is a genius at absorbing other peoples ideas and melding them .. i will grant him that .. but clearly he can't do it on his own .. does prince avoid his past because he didn't write it .. maybe .. he can play all the instruments sure .. but can he write .. hmmmm ... more and more it is clear he needs others, took from others, they didn't like it .. he didn't care to share ..

why doesn't prince comment .. why would he .. if he stays silent everyone thinks he is a genius and he gets to keep his stupid jewelry and mansions with 3121 painted all over them .. if he talks .. hell he might even owe a few people some serious royalties .. he probably does not want to lie or pay so its better just to remain silent ..

even diamonds and pearls was largely colaborative album .. i am not saying prince sucks .. but i do wish he would work with better talent so that his music would suck less ..

i always ask myself .. how can such a genius fall so far down to crap crap songwriting .. this explaination returns over and over and over .. cuz he didn't do his best work alone .. sure he may have "recorded" it alone .. but he didn't write it .. part of prince genius was all the interlocking minimalist parts, sounds and personalities .. it is much easier to believe that controversy was based on a group jam than that prince came up with it all himself .. likely because its true

TrevorAyer said:

. ya know what .. prince is a genius at absorbing other peoples ideas and melding them .. i will grant him that .. but clearly he can't do it on his own ..

Oh god, shut up.

rdhull said:

Oh god, shut up.

Because?

Please elaborate.

funkyhead said:

only one comment+ this thread is useless without pics

udo said:

rdhull said:

Oh god, shut up.

Because?

Please elaborate.

Because u sound like an idiot with that comment

rdhull said:

udo said:

Because?

Please elaborate.

Because u sound like an idiot with that comment

You may think so, but please do enlighten us as to why that is.

udo said:

rdhull said:

Because u sound like an idiot with that comment

You may think so, but please do enlighten us as to why that is.

No enlightenment required. The original comment made:

ya know what .. prince is a genius at absorbing other peoples ideas and melding them .. i will grant him that .. but clearly he can't do it on his own ..

Is one of the silliest things posted here.

At best, this claim is supported by the worst/most flimsy internet rumor and conjecture. It's wildly and passionately inaccurate. At worst, it deserves the ire it got.

Fact is, there is a TON of evidence/examples to the contrary. The author says "clearly", Prince can't do it on his own, when historically and categorically the EXACT opposite has been proven true time and again.

Prince is likely the most famous/well known do-it-all-yourself musician ever. All that has been documented/stated/recorded/spoken about his ferocious self reliance and ability to create all of his craft by himself. From the Revolution, to this year's verson of the NPG, to Jimmy Jam, to Mavis Staples, to Miles Davis, to George Clinton, to Alecia Keys, to his sound engineers, to his bodyguards, etc...anyone that has ever collaborated with Prince is on the record stating this.

This in not just evidence/examples coming in the from of half rumors from burnt exbandmates, but from credible people that have witnessed him form/create entire albums from an single grain of an idea. Ever hear of how "La, La, La, He Hee Hee" was conceived? You gonna give Sheena Easton writing credit for that song? Of course not.

Which is exactly why I tell him to sit down because of all these stupid things he posts and then he has the nerve to ask "why?"

skywalker said:

udo said:

No enlightenment required. The original comment made:

ya know what .. prince is a genius at absorbing other peoples ideas and melding them .. i will grant him that .. but clearly he can't do it on his own ..

Is one of the silliest things posted here.

xcept 'evry time we think prince did it all himself .. ahem .. controversy .. it turns out he didn't .. and it's usually his best work .. do it all night is no 'controversy' .. dirty mind is tho .. but he had help with that too .. so who is to say how much of any of his greatest work was truly composed only by himself .. clearly he does not give proper credit .. just because he records all the parts does not mean he came up with them

When Doves Cry called nd told me to tell you to sit down somewhere. Wait I got another call..its Darlng Nikki....

TrevorAyer said:

xcept 'evry time we think prince did it all himself .. ahem .. controversy .. it turns out he didn't .. and it's usually his best work .. do it all night is no 'controversy' .. dirty mind is tho .. but he had help with that too .. so who is to say how much of any of his greatest work was truly composed only by himself ..

TrevorAyer said:

xcept 'evry time we think prince did it all himself .. ahem .. controversy .. it turns out he didn't .. and it's usually his best work .. do it all night is no 'controversy' .. dirty mind is tho .. but he had help with that too .. so who is to say how much of any of his greatest work was truly composed only by himself .. clearly he does not give proper credit .. just because he records all the parts does not mean he came up with them

Read DMSR be Per Nilsen.