HonestMan13 said:

funkyhead said:

We [the hardcore] were once referred to as a challenging and sophisticated fanbase- [yes you too Pook!] but now looking at what so many on here seem to get excited about beggars belief. What the hell happened!.

It's great that he's still around and there never is a dull moment where each year brings a new project / tour etc. However the majority on here seem to make excuse after excuse for his lack of quality control. Maybe it's just a case of his fan base getting younger and being brough up through the X-Fcator / American Idol generation, maybe I'm getting too old or maybe it's both!.

Come on, take a close hard listen to the old stuff - [and I won't apologise for refereing to the 80's golden era] and compare it to the new stuff. It's mostly awful - that's not an IMHO , that's a fact!

My message is do not settle for second best, he is not like other ledgends as he can turn it on like no other when he chooses to but for some bizarre reason he chooses not too!. Raise the bar people!

indeed, lol. Off to put on the 1999 album and moan about how great things used to be!.

my message is a simple one i.e. Why should you and I settle for 2nd best?, give us quality over quantity please.

funkyhead said:

my message is a simple one i.e. Why should you and I settle for 2nd best?, give us quality over quantity please.

He's only officially released 2 songs in the past two years so it's not an issue of quantity any longer. The quality part is an individual issue from fan to fan. Some of us love his recent work and some of us don't. The dividing point on this site is some orgers feel their opinion of Prince's work(past and present) is the final word and the voice of the fanbase. It's not. We all have different tastes and one mans classic is another mans crap.

skywalker said:

I agree that around 1990 Prince was biting other trends hard ie rap.

One could argue that he had always done this to an extent. I mean, his first two albums weren't really groundbreaking or different than what was already happening.

I agree.

People often don't acknowledge this, but even Dirty Mind was influenced by other punk/New Wave/British things going on at the time. Dirty Mind wasn't created in a vacuum.. that album wears it's influences like Prince wore his bikini briefs.

Right. Nothing is created in a vacuum. In the end it's about the quality of the result.

I disagree that "the creative force" was gone after '88. I think that Prince realized that the general public and casual fan wasn't as into his genius as much as he was. Sure, he could release another Parade, Sign O' The Times, or Lovesexy but those albums didn't pay the bills for Paisley Park. Being an artist has it's price, and I think he has always straddled the line between artist and pop star relatively well.

From there on he didn't want to pay that price anymore. So what was more important to him artistic integrity or being pop and sell?

I have read that Prince was quite disheartened by the lack of success in the US for lovesexy (playing the tour to half filled venues, etc). Can you imagine that? Only 4 years after Purple Rain and Prince had could not fill an arena as well as he can now?

And what was the result? Batman! An artistically weak album compared to its predecessors.

Neither does your claim that, from 1989 on, Prince was about "surviving as a big pop artist." Which is what I was refuting. Pop artists that wanna survive don't make the moves he made in the 90's like ditching his label, etc.

Could be, although even negative PR is still PR. But what about the music that came up with it? Lots of challenging material for the ear? Very little!

If you are not a fan of this period, that's on you. I cannot dissuade you of your opinion. That's cool. I don't like the Parade era as much as most Prince fans seem to. Many happen to think that the 1993-1995 era is one of his best ever with some of his most exciting material. All you have to do is read the linear notes by Jim Walsh for great evidence that Prince WAS pushing and stretching artistically in ways that he hadn't before.

Liner notes as evidence? No, thank you. I trust my ears. Again I hear lots of talent, but very little genius. The quantity might be amazing. The quality? Well...

As I said before, I would argue that Prince always straddles the line between pop/rock star and artist. That's part of his genius. You can see this even as far back as 1978.

It's a bit pejorative to state it as "he sells out to every genre possible".

I always thought a big part of Prince's appeal is that he would do his take on all sorts of genres, and yes, I think it is challenging to people that Prince incorporates so many different flavors of music into the mix. Sometimes this occurs within the span of 2 to 3 songs on the same album.

It was cool back then because it had a different quality. Now I don't think the old recipe works anymore. The music becomes superficial, only touching the surface. Songs sound like they are not connected at all. It's just a little bit of this, a little bit of that without making a lot of sense.

The point I am making: I don't agree with your statement that, from 1989 onwards, Prince was only "about surviving as a big pop artist." There are many examples of him still pushing boundaries (both musically and professionally) afterwards. Didn't he make a Grammy nominated instrumental album in 2003?

The idea was to give an overall picture. I knew that my 2 sentences are not valid for every detail of his career.

Without a doubt, Prince has moments where he seems content to be a superstar, where he seemed like he was just coasting. However, even these moments he was/is only taking it easy by Prince standards. Prince can still kill it whenever he wants to*.

* Ever read the Rollingstone magazine review of Sign O' The Times? Even with THAT album in 1987 Prince was being accused of holding back. The review ends like this:

"He is an artist capable of altering popular consciousness in concrete ways, but Sign o' the Times seems unlikely to alter anything more profound than the face of the hit parade. Nothing wrong with that, but it's rather like the story about Jesus feeding the multitudes with miraculous loaves and fishes. Such fundamental nourishment is always appreciated. But when a full-blown feast is so obviously within Prince's capabilities, one wonders: Why doesn't he go for it?"

Yeah, kind of funny. Especially if you consider that Prince intended to release "Crystal Ball" and not the shortened version renamed "SOTT" instead.

funkomatic said:

skywalker said:

I agree that around 1990 Prince was biting other trends hard ie rap.

One could argue that he had always done this to an extent. I mean, his first two albums weren't really groundbreaking or different than what was already happening.

I agree.

People often don't acknowledge this, but even Dirty Mind was influenced by other punk/New Wave/British things going on at the time. Dirty Mind wasn't created in a vacuum.. that album wears it's influences like Prince wore his bikini briefs.

Right. Nothing is created in a vacuum. In the end it's about the quality of the result.

Agree.

So one opinion is that, in 1980, Prince took influences from what was contemporary/hip at the time to forge Dirty Mind and, although it didn't sell many copies, it was labeled groundbreaking.

In 1990/91 he took what was contemporary and hip in music, added it to his mix to make the album Diamonds and Pearls. It was a monster hit, but not "groundbreaking". You tell me which is right or wrong. Did Dirty Mind captivate/move/inspire as many people as Diamonds and Pearls? How can we tell other than arbitrary opinions? Ultimately it comes down to personal opinion, not Prince's intent/motivation/work ethic/or capabilities.

I disagree that "the creative force" was gone after '88. I think that Prince realized that the general public and casual fan wasn't as into his genius as much as he was. Sure, he could release another Parade, Sign O' The Times, or Lovesexy but those albums didn't pay the bills for Paisley Park. Being an artist has it's price, and I think he has always straddled the line between artist and pop star relatively well.

From there on he didn't want to pay that price anymore. So what was more important to him artistic integrity or being pop and sell?

I think that he still wanted to do both. If you look at Graffiti Bridge, it was designed to do both. I'd say it was more of a messy artistic statement than something that appealed to the masses. The next year, he promoted/sold the hell out of Diamonds and Pearls. The in 1992, was much more bombastic and ambitious in it's artistic/thematic scope. It didn't sell as well. WB didn't like that. They wanted another Diamonds and Pearls. That's when things went wrong between Prince and the label.

I have read that Prince was quite disheartened by the lack of success in the US for lovesexy (playing the tour to half filled venues, etc). Can you imagine that? Only 4 years after Purple Rain and Prince had could not fill an arena as well as he can now?

And what was the result? Batman! An artistically weak album compared to its predecessors.

Yes, but it was massively popular and had a life line to one of the biggest movies ever. It gained Prince a generation of new fans and made people pay attention to Prince that hadn't since 1984. It gave him leverage to be more artistic in the future. Also , it was compiled almost entirely of songs/material Prince had already had on hand. Meaning, much of Batman was written in prior to 1989 in that "glorious era."

Furthermore, I'd argue that for a soundtrack to a ultimate blockbuster movie, the Batman album was very artistic and ambitious. Compare it to soundtracks for Top Gun, Flashdance, Ghostbusters, or The Bodyguard. Batman is not a "straight and narrow" easily digestible pop record. It's weird, it is artistic, it has coherent themes. It's only less than in terms of what Prince fans "expected".

Neither does your claim that, from 1989 on, Prince was about "surviving as a big pop artist." Which is what I was refuting. Pop artists that wanna survive don't make the moves he made in the 90's like ditching his label, etc.

Could be, although even negative PR is still PR. But what about the music that came up with it? Lots of challenging material for the ear? Very little!

This is your opinion which you are completely entitled to. Different folks hear things differently.

If you are not a fan of this period, that's on you. I cannot dissuade you of your opinion. That's cool. I don't like the Parade era as much as most Prince fans seem to. Many happen to think that the 1993-1995 era is one of his best ever with some of his most exciting material. All you have to do is read the linear notes by Jim Walsh for great evidence that Prince WAS pushing and stretching artistically in ways that he hadn't before.

Liner notes as evidence? No, thank you. I trust my ears. Again I hear lots of talent, but very little genius. The quantity might be amazing. The quality? Well...

As I said, I am not going to be able to change your opinion. The 1993-1995 era is widely regarded by many as one of Prince's best. Doesn't mean it's true, or that you have to like it. I hear genius and quality abound as do others. Who's to say what's right/wrong? U only know what u know.

As I said before, I would argue that Prince always straddles the line between pop/rock star and artist. That's part of his genius. You can see this even as far back as 1978.

It's a bit pejorative to state it as "he sells out to every genre possible".

I always thought a big part of Prince's appeal is that he would do his take on all sorts of genres, and yes, I think it is challenging to people that Prince incorporates so many different flavors of music into the mix. Sometimes this occurs within the span of 2 to 3 songs on the same album.

It was cool back then because it had a different quality. Now I don't think the old recipe works anymore. The music becomes superficial, only touching the surface. Songs sound like they are not connected at all. It's just a little bit of this, a little bit of that without making a lot of sense.

It's hard for me to address this because you don't get into specifics with anything that I've underlined. It sounds like Prince's music isn't connecting with you anymore, or vice versa. I'm not sure.

My point is that Prince has always been ecclectic in his styles and that I don't think it has changed that much in terms of how varied he is when it comes to genre hopping. I can give you examples.

The point I am making: I don't agree with your statement that, from 1989 onwards, Prince was only "about surviving as a big pop artist." There are many examples of him still pushing boundaries (both musically and professionally) afterwards. Didn't he make a Grammy nominated instrumental album in 2003?

The idea was to give an overall picture. I knew that my 2 sentences are not valid for every detail of his career.

I think your statement was a HUGE overgeneralization. One doesn't have to go through nooks and crannys of the purple back catalogue to point it out. Just looking at the BROAD strokes of Prince's career, one can see that he didn't/doesn't just always try to be a pop star...even after 1989.

As I said, dude was nominated for a grammy for an instrumental album in 2003. That is the very definition of being challenging to an audience. That is a perfect example of Prince going for artistic merit/following a muse/not pandering. It is NOT the move of someone wanting to only survive as pop star. It is NOT conventional, and it is NOT something done by a musician who "dumbs down" fan expectations.

Ultimately, I think we are silly to assume to know what Prince's motivations are for recording releasing creating songs/albums.

With every album there is likely both artistic and commerical motivations. Musicians want people to hear their songs, no matter how artistic they are... The Beatles, and Dylan. Hell, Michael Jackson (aka Mr. I want everyone to buy/love my music) had moments of sheer naked artistry on his albums.

You ever read the backstory behind the song Purple Rain?

Prince wanted a wider/whiter audience and modeled the song after watching Bob Seger in concert. Boom! Hell, that entire project could be looked upon (cynically) as one big commerical grab. You think Purple Rain was more "artistic" or "challenging" than 1999?

[Edited 10/30/12 12:16pm]

its amazing how lame people tend 2 be purple rain is over 25 or so more years old and prince has done hundreds of songs since and has grown with each one of em and yet we hold on 2 that one year 4 so long. prince changed up his style in 85 with around the world in a day so after all them years why u still lagging around if u soo dumbed by what he is doing?? i love the growth i love what he continues 2 do is musicanship first and foremost. we take 4 granted and abuse things so much everybody dogged michael so hard when we was alive soon as he died the world was crying and sobbing like they needed him do u really?? respect em while they r here. music is ever changing and if prince does release another purple rain the young generation not gonna respect it he has more of a chance relating 2 now with songs like sexy muthafucka

@skywalker: Sorry, but it's too difficult for me to format my replies once again without making it look too confusing.

There's no objective truth. It's always opinions. Why do you listen to Prince and not Britney Spears or whatever? You make a choice for a reason.

One grammy nomination for an instrumental album within a 23 year period makes you think this is a huge overgeneralization. So be it.

I agree with you, it's kind of silly to speculate on Prince's motivation. Fact is: I expected him to do a lot better than he actually did in the last two decades. More growth, more maturity, more quality music.

[Edited 10/30/12 14:25pm]

funkomatic said:

@skywalker: Sorry, but it's too difficult for me to format my replies once again without making it look too confusing.

There's no objective truth. It's always opinions. Why do you listen to Prince and not Britney Spears or whatever? You make a choice for a reason.

One grammy nomination for an instrumental album within a 23 year period makes you think this is a huge overgeneralization. So be it.

Not just this, I could list dozens and dozens of examples, this was just one of them.

I agree with you, it's kind of silly to speculate on Prince's motivation. Fact is: I expected him to do a lot better than he actually did in the last two decades. More growth, more maturity, more quality music.

[Edited 10/30/12 14:25pm]

Thanks for the good chat and for being cool.

No.

The fans create their own market for stuff if P doesn't deliver.

HonestMan13 said:

funkyhead said:

my message is a simple one i.e. Why should you and I settle for 2nd best?, give us quality over quantity please.

He's only officially released 2 songs in the past two years so it's not an issue of quantity any longer. The quality part is an individual issue from fan to fan. Some of us love his recent work and some of us don't. The dividing point on this site is some orgers feel their opinion of Prince's work(past and present) is the final word and the voice of the fanbase. It's not. We all have different tastes and one mans classic is another mans crap.

Actually, I think his dumb fans have over-inflated expectations because they choose to believe he's something more than human.

does pinochio have wooden balls?

ps .. opinions are for people who don't believe what they are saying .. nothing subjective about that