What's so important about 'The Flesh'?

Bohemian67 said:

What's so important about 'The Flesh'?

I am a big fan of Prince's instrumental work, so the fact that there is an unreleased album (and possibly more) of that type of music from one of my favourite era's makes me very eager to hear them. Add to that, a killer lineup of musicians and you have something that has the possibility of being quite special.

These are only my opinions of course.

bigd74 said:

The Flesh

Flesh (the Margie Cox thing)

a decent compilation with all the good unreleased stuff that we all want

It's Flash http://www.princevault.co...bum:_Flash

TheDigitalGardener said:

bigd74 said:

The Flesh

Flesh (the Margie Cox thing)

a decent compilation with all the good unreleased stuff that we all want

It's Flash http://www.princevault.co...bum:_Flash

bollox, yeah a typo, i know what i meant

TheDigitalGardener said:

Bohemian67 said:

What's so important about 'The Flesh'?

I am a big fan of Prince's instrumental work, so the fact that there is an unreleased album (and possibly more) of that type of music from one of my favourite era's makes me very eager to hear them. Add to that, a killer lineup of musicians and you have something that has the possibility of being quite special.

These are only my opinions of course.

Same here: I love most of Prince's instrumental albums, so obviously The Flesh is something I am dreaming to hear. The album because I love albums as cohesive works of art. The sessions because they were long improvised jam sessions, which is something I love to hear in general. That + the fact that this stuff dates back from a fan-favorite era, which makes it all the more fascinating.

And as for the 1995 Madhouse album, well I really dig the 2 tracks that were released (despite the fact that they were severely edited), so I want to hear them in full, and the rest of the album as well

vitriol said:

paulludvig said:

Which one of them?

Well, you assumed quite a few things in your post:

-that the outcome of those sessions was 'topped' by the Madhouse albums

-that he played 'mostly' drums on those sessions

-that his involvement in the sessions was 'somewhat limited'.

So I'll ask again: is there anything backing your assumptions?

In my post I used the word "perhaps" twice to emphasize that I was making assumptions. I'm glad you picked up on this point. Of course, we're all making assumptions when discussing The Flesh sessions as these are for the most part unreleased and uncirculating recordings.

As to the assumptions I made, let's start with some facts:

The Flesh project consists of mainly four sessions.

1. 26. December 1985. The session that produced A Couple of Miles featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Prince (everything else).

2. "The Paisley Jam" 28. December 1985 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Sheila E (drums), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), and Prince (various instruments)

4. 30. December 1985 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Sheila E (drums), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), and Prince (various instruments) (U Gotta Shake Something", "Voodoo Who" and "Finest Whisky")

4. "Everbody's jam" January 1986 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Wendy (guitar, bass), Lisa (keyboard), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), Jonathan Melvoin (percussion), Sheila E (percussion), Prince (drums)

A Couple of Miles, plus three tracks from the Everybody's jam were considered for release on The Flesh album

Prince and Eric Leeds recorded the instrumental tracks Yes and Susannah's Pajamas for the Family album in June-October 1984 and Madhouse 8 in September /October 1986. Prince, Eric Leeds, Sheila E, Levi Seacer Jr. and Dr Fink recorded Madhouse 16 in July/August 1987

Notice that both the released and unreleased material was recorded during the same period. The Flesh session fall chronologically between the Family and the Madhouse material. I therefore assume that the released material give us a good idea of what the unreleased material sounds like. I also assume that Prince and possibly people in his camp (for instance Eric Leeds, Sheila E, Levi Seacer jr, the record company etc) thought the Madhouse records more worthy of release than the Flesh Album. Alternatively we can speculate that the Madhouse albums were favored over the Flesh album because Prince wanted to release an instrumental album without the contribution of Coleman and the Melvoins. In other words the development from The Flesh to Madhouse could possibly mirror the development from Dream Factory to Crystal Ball. But that can't explain the reasons for releasing Madhouse 16 rather than the two December jams with Sheila and Levi. I therefore assume that the Madhouse albums "topped" at least the Paisley jam and the jam from December 30th. That leaves the Everybody's jam. On this occasion Prince played “mostly” drums. Considering that the jam featured seven musicians and six instruments, Prince's involvement on this occasion could be considered "somewhat limited".

Since I’m feeling particularly forthcoming today I will offer some possible counterarguments:

1. To scrap The Flesh album in favor of the Madhouse albums was solely Prince’s decision, and since Prince has continually shown bad judgment, the decision tells us nothing about the quality of the respective sessions. Some will possibly go as far as to say that Prince preferring Madhouse indicates that The Flesh was a better album since Prince is almost always wrong.
2. The circulating track U Gotta Shake Something from 30. December sounds nothing like the Madhouse material. It is more of James Brown inspired funk jam.

Anyway I think we can all agree that hearing the Flesh sessions would be interesting. Personally I think those recordings can tell us something about the reasons why Prince chose to disband the Revolution in favor of the Sign o’ the Times band. The 1985 December sessions featured a proto version of the band he would be touring with in ’87 and ’88. A month later he tried to include members of The Revolution in his experiments with instrumental music. Later developments indicate that it didn’t work out and that at least Prince thought that W&L couldn’t follow him into this new territory.

motherfunka said:

Lovesexy Aftershows on DVD in perfect quality!

YES!!!!

Whatever tracks or material resulted from the Bonnie Raitt sessions.

Wally (Wallace)

Hell..I just want someone/him to hum the melody so I can get a feel for it.

I presume its akin to OF4S

Big Tall Wall in pristine quality.

I have 2 versions of Electric Intercourse, the live one and a studio one that sounds polished. Would love to get the other 2. This song is just so magnificent.

And yeah the Second coming movie is right up there too.

The song called "Emotional Pump" he tried to give to Joni Mitchell

Any version of "We can Fuck"

I would also want any coverage of the Coco Boys project if any was shot, I know versions of Can't stop this feeling I got, Wonderful Day, Wonderfull ass, Get on up and a few other demos were meant for this 1986/87 project.

[Edited 10/11/12 3:46am]

Adorecream said:

I have 2 versions of Electric Intercourse, the live one and a studio one that sounds polished. Would love to get the other 2. This song is just so magnificent.

Say that again???

According to Princevault, there is only one studio version, which is actually only an overdubbed version of the live cut. To my knowledge, this version isn't in circulation.

databank said:

Adorecream said:

I have 2 versions of Electric Intercourse, the live one and a studio one that sounds polished. Would love to get the other 2. This song is just so magnificent.

Say that again???

According to Princevault, there is only one studio version, which is actually only an overdubbed version of the live cut. To my knowledge, this version isn't in circulation.

The studio-like version is actually a rehearsal, there's no real studio version of this song.

^That version of Electric Intercourse is not a 'studio version' it's just the rehearsal take tweaked a bit to resemble what a studio version could sound like. IIRC, T did that job.

We don't even know for sure if a real studio version really exists, though my personal hunch is that it does.

Edit: didn't refresh the page and didn't notice the 2 former posts, hence the repetition of the info.

[Edited 10/11/12 5:54am]

paulludvig said:

1. To scrap The Flesh album in favor of the Madhouse albums was solely Prince’s decision, and since Prince has continually shown bad judgment, the decision tells us nothing about the quality of the respective sessions. Some will possibly go as far as to say that Prince preferring Madhouse indicates that The Flesh was a better album since Prince is almost always wrong.
2. The circulating track U Gotta Shake Something from 30. December sounds nothing like the Madhouse material. It is more of James Brown inspired funk jam.

It was stated that Prince sorta abandoned the final touches on The Flesh album because of the editing of UTCM and other issues.

We know for sure that if Prince is to release something he normally does when it's fresh. After pulling the album he focused on the movie (why, oh why???) and when he finished that he was already in another 'phase'. He wouldn't look back and that's why maybe we got the Madhouse albums instead.

Funnily enough, Prince had declared in 1977 that he'd like to release -apart from his usual output- some jazz-like music under a different moniker. Ten years after we got the Madhouse albums.

What I intend to transmit is that most probably he didn't favour Madhouse against The Flesh because he thought he'd topped his former work, but because his train was already one or two stations beyond.

[Edited 10/11/12 6:04am]

Another vote here for The Flesh...

Marco81 said:

databank said:

Say that again???

According to Princevault, there is only one studio version, which is actually only an overdubbed version of the live cut. To my knowledge, this version isn't in circulation.

The studio-like version is actually a rehearsal, there's no real studio version of this song.

The version I refer to is on Testament 1983 and PrincesIvault 1983 albums, its sounds very finished and polished to me. I have heard of a rehearsal version, where he says "Wake up Wendy" thats not on this version. The scream is shorter than the live version on Perfect Unreleased Prince Vol 2. This live mix is almost certainly from the First Avenue show in August 1983.

Princevault is wrong as anyone can clearly hear Prince's voice sounds slighty difference between the two versions I have. Who is Princevault anyway, you are not referring to the badly cobbled together collection of Wikipedia Prince articles.

[Edited 10/11/12 19:01pm]

^ Yep. There are 2 versions of this, I have heard the 'live' one (it was on Playtime Disc 1) and it is different to the 'other' version which is more commonly circulated (which sounds live-ish but may have had studio overdubs etc).

I'm going to throw a curve ball and say the Prince performed guiding tracks to 'The Time' and 'Vanity 6' albums. Also, I wanna hear the vocals to the instrumental version of 'Possessed'

Anything Camille-ish would make me happy too (insert random post by some joker saying "Camille is only credited with such and such songs, and even songs that obviously have Camille vocals and stylings aren't Camille because blah blah blah")

Ok, a funk-jazz instrumental Paisley Jam session album with song names like 12 notes?

Count me in.

PaisleyVaultman said:

How about the original band recording of Lovesexy? I absolutely love the released track, however Eric Leeds seemed pretty disappointed by how this track turned out. Prince has a habit of over producing at times and this could well be an earlier example of this. It's not often that Prince's musicianship is called into question by a band member, so maybe there is something to Eric's comments. What the original track sounds like really intrigues me. I'm sure that this version has been in circulation between a select few for many years - I can remember it being discussed years ago on HQ. I would do anything to get hold of it! I would also like to hear the 88/89 Rave... album to understand the musical transition from Lovesexy to Batman. I would then have to be very boring and non-specific and say any/all Revolution out takes. And then ridiculous amounts of live DVD's would be great!

The 1988 version of Rave until the Joy fantastic amazingly sounds VERY similar to the released one on the album. Its on a few boots. I believe Fuschia light may have also been a track from this album, both have a fairly heavy Batman type feel and are not like Lovesexy at all. I think he may have moved on from the Lovesexy sound quite quickly.

Girl Power and Pink Cashmere were also to be on this album (I am assuming you mean the one called Anna Fantastic for Anna Garcia his girlfriend at the time)

Fuschia light went to Tony Le Mans in 1989 and I think Girl Power either went to Taja Sevelle or Robin Power (Not too sure). Fuschia light is a powerful funk rocker with a very Electric Chair type feel to it, it sounds like it could have been a duet. Another possible song "The Voice inside, sounds like a frothy pop jam and again a duet" Much less satisfying than FL it sounds like a Carmen Electra throwaway. We got the Power an instrumental jam is also quite lightweight like a lovesexy track, has the opening of Live 4 Love at its beginning.

I think the infectious but weak pop track Cookie Jar may have been meant for her too.

I, too, vote for The Flesh sessions. Gotta Shake Something is some fonky shit! I want more!!!

Thank U for this absolute great info.

So if I understand well, working & exploring more with Eric Leeds & Sheila E was in a way a possible continuing reason to split The Revolution sort to speak... Or was it simply Prince looking for a new challange (his 'star' was falling though) ? I know that for instance Wendy, and especially Lisa brought new music interest and influences to him, pop & classical wise. In fact, Susannah did some as well but more from a visual point of view/ art interest. Like that whole 'Parade' thing is an extraordinary change of image in Prince's carreer, isn't it. The inner sleeve pics of The Family album tell a lot for that matter. Anyway, since Sheila brought in that latin & percussion sound, Eric Leeds for sure made him familiar with jazz, and brought him closer to that whole Miles Davis thing; the meet and jam, recordings and all.

A chronological 'read' of all these recording sessions somehow tell a lot more of how he developed, and moved on/away from former band members... but, why ? Was Prince all of a sudden not interested anymore in being a 'star' ? He sure tried more then often again and again in the 90s and the 00s without any big succes...

Again, I'm very much interested in hearing the original/(demo) studio versions of the songs he recorded for the Purple Rain album (especially the second half of the album; I would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star, & Purple Rain itself). Since he mixed those with the live recordings from those well known 1983 performances for the Dance Theater Company. And why mixing it with especially those live recordings ?

paulludvig said:

vitriol said:

Well, you assumed quite a few things in your post:

-that the outcome of those sessions was 'topped' by the Madhouse albums

-that he played 'mostly' drums on those sessions

-that his involvement in the sessions was 'somewhat limited'.

So I'll ask again: is there anything backing your assumptions?

In my post I used the word "perhaps" twice to emphasize that I was making assumptions. I'm glad you picked up on this point. Of course, we're all making assumptions when discussing The Flesh sessions as these are for the most part unreleased and uncirculating recordings.

As to the assumptions I made, let's start with some facts:

The Flesh project consists of mainly four sessions.

1. 26. December 1985. The session that produced A Couple of Miles featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Prince (everything else).

2. "The Paisley Jam" 28. December 1985 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Sheila E (drums), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), and Prince (various instruments)

4. 30. December 1985 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Sheila E (drums), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), and Prince (various instruments) (U Gotta Shake Something", "Voodoo Who" and "Finest Whisky")

4. "Everbody's jam" January 1986 featuring Eric Leeds (sax), Wendy (guitar, bass), Lisa (keyboard), Levi Seacer Jr. (bass), Jonathan Melvoin (percussion), Sheila E (percussion), Prince (drums)

A Couple of Miles, plus three tracks from the Everybody's jam were considered for release on The Flesh album

Prince and Eric Leeds recorded the instrumental tracks Yes and Susannah's Pajamas for the Family album in June-October 1984 and Madhouse 8 in September /October 1986. Prince, Eric Leeds, Sheila E, Levi Seacer Jr. and Dr Fink recorded Madhouse 16 in July/August 1987

Notice that both the released and unreleased material was recorded during the same period. The Flesh session fall chronologically between the Family and the Madhouse material. I therefore assume that the released material give us a good idea of what the unreleased material sounds like. I also assume that Prince and possibly people in his camp (for instance Eric Leeds, Sheila E, Levi Seacer jr, the record company etc) thought the Madhouse records more worthy of release than the Flesh Album. Alternatively we can speculate that the Madhouse albums were favored over the Flesh album because Prince wanted to release an instrumental album without the contribution of Coleman and the Melvoins. In other words the development from The Flesh to Madhouse could possibly mirror the development from Dream Factory to Crystal Ball. But that can't explain the reasons for releasing Madhouse 16 rather than the two December jams with Sheila and Levi. I therefore assume that the Madhouse albums "topped" at least the Paisley jam and the jam from December 30th. That leaves the Everybody's jam. On this occasion Prince played “mostly” drums. Considering that the jam featured seven musicians and six instruments, Prince's involvement on this occasion could be considered "somewhat limited".

Since I’m feeling particularly forthcoming today I will offer some possible counterarguments:

1. To scrap The Flesh album in favor of the Madhouse albums was solely Prince’s decision, and since Prince has continually shown bad judgment, the decision tells us nothing about the quality of the respective sessions. Some will possibly go as far as to say that Prince preferring Madhouse indicates that The Flesh was a better album since Prince is almost always wrong.
2. The circulating track U Gotta Shake Something from 30. December sounds nothing like the Madhouse material. It is more of James Brown inspired funk jam.

Anyway I think we can all agree that hearing the Flesh sessions would be interesting. Personally I think those recordings can tell us something about the reasons why Prince chose to disband the Revolution in favor of the Sign o’ the Times band. The 1985 December sessions featured a proto version of the band he would be touring with in ’87 and ’88. A month later he tried to include members of The Revolution in his experiments with instrumental music. Later developments indicate that it didn’t work out and that at least Prince thought that W&L couldn’t follow him into this new territory.

Thanks. I found all the info on PrinceVault and here on the org Only the information about recording dates and personnel can be considered facts. The rest is pure opinonated speculation on my part. Vitriols interpretation of those same facts (se post #45 in this thread) makes a lot of sense.

I agree with you on studio versions of PR songs. Would be interesting! I guess he mixed in the live recordings to get a "live" sound suited to the movie?

Vannormal said:

Thank U for this absolute great info.

So if I understand well, working & exploring more with Eric Leeds & Sheila E was in a way a possible continuing reason to split The Revolution sort to speak... Or was it simply Prince looking for a new challange (his 'star' was falling though) ? I know that for instance Wendy, and especially Lisa brought new music interest and influences to him, pop & classical wise. In fact, Susannah did some as well but more from a visual point of view/ art interest. Like that whole 'Parade' thing is an extraordinary change of image in Prince's carreer, isn't it. The inner sleeve pics of The Family album tell a lot for that matter. Anyway, since Sheila brought in that latin & percussion sound, Eric Leeds for sure made him familiar with jazz, and brought him closer to that whole Miles Davis thing; the meet and jam, recordings and all.

A chronological 'read' of all these recording sessions somehow tell a lot more of how he developed, and moved on/away from former band members... but, why ? Was Prince all of a sudden not interested anymore in being a 'star' ? He sure tried more then often again and again in the 90s and the 00s without any big succes...

Again, I'm very much interested in hearing the original/(demo) studio versions of the songs he recorded for the Purple Rain album (especially the second half of the album; I would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star, & Purple Rain itself). Since he mixed those with the live recordings from those well known 1983 performances for the Dance Theater Company. And why mixing it with especially those live recordings ?

paulludvig said:

Wally, and if we're talking wishes, I'd want it to be the deleted version.

Then, before anyone gets to hear it, I'd want Kirky J to come out of hiding to do his thaaang with it.

Because the important thing is that only I'm happy.

PaisleyVaultman said:

How about the original band recording of Lovesexy? I absolutely love the released track, however Eric Leeds seemed pretty disappointed by how this track turned out. Prince has a habit of over producing at times and this could well be an earlier example of this. It's not often that Prince's musicianship is called into question by a band member, so maybe there is something to Eric's comments. What the original track sounds like really intrigues me. I'm sure that this version has been in circulation between a select few for many years - I can remember it being discussed years ago on HQ. I would do anything to get hold of it! I would also like to hear the 88/89 Rave... album to understand the musical transition from Lovesexy to Batman. I would then have to be very boring and non-specific and say any/all Revolution out takes. And then ridiculous amounts of live DVD's would be great!

Y'all make it sound like there's a secret Cabal of collectors.

TheDigitalGardener said:

What is your most wished for uncirculating material?

I would like to hear this http://www.princevault.co..._The_Flesh

Anything else would be a bonus.

I've just heard "A Couple Of Miles". In pristine quality. That wasn't circulating before, right?