LazarusHeart said:

Dave1992 said:

The way you interpret this line, you're of course correct. However, I don't agree entirely, because there's a way this could very well be used as a nominative.

If you take "you and I" as a unit and not two seperate entities/people, it becomes "nothing should come between what you and I represent" (sort of).

The thing is, logically, you need two entities for something to be able to "come between" them; however, in this case, it would basically say "nothing should disturb this one thing - you and I".

That's why, in my opinion, the nominative use of "you and I" is OK.

Nothing should come between "us".

Us is nominative, and "you and I" is still incorrect even when viewed as a singular entity or "idea" replacing us. "You and me" replaces us. You and I replaces we. There isn't any other acceptable use of it in English for nominative case.

Again, just think of nominative case single entities like "me", "him", etc. It's not the way you view it as singular or plural--ie, as an idea or a collection of nouns--it's the fact that it isn't ever nominative, and therefore is always wrong when used as such.

But you are still viewing the phrase as two singular entities put together. "You and I" does replace "we" and vice versa, but the phrase "you and I" in this case replaces the single nominative.

Another example:

"I love you and I." This would suggest something like "I love the way we are". Not directly "us", as in "I love you and I also love myself".

It may sound strange and is hardly ever used in every-day conversation, but the grammatical idea itself is sound, and even more so as part of a musical lyric.

God, I love linguistics

Dave1992 said:

LazarusHeart said:

Nothing should come between "us".

Us is nominative, and "you and I" is still incorrect even when viewed as a singular entity or "idea" replacing us. "You and me" replaces us. You and I replaces we. There isn't any other acceptable use of it in English for nominative case.

Again, just think of nominative case single entities like "me", "him", etc. It's not the way you view it as singular or plural--ie, as an idea or a collection of nouns--it's the fact that it isn't ever nominative, and therefore is always wrong when used as such.

But you are still viewing the phrase as two singular entities put together. "You and I" does replace "we" and vice versa, but the phrase "you and I" in this case replaces the single nominative.

Another example:

"I love you and I." This would suggest something like "I love the way we are". Not directly "us", as in "I love you and I also love myself".

It may sound strange and is hardly ever used in every-day conversation, but the grammatical idea itself is sound, and even more so as part of a musical lyric.

No, again you can't say "I love you and I"

Because, "You and I" is the object of the verb, and therefore the transitive statement has a subject (I), and an nominative set of pronouns "you and I".

Again, it can't be used in the nominative, and "You and I" does not replace "the way we are".

It's really very simple. If it's an object or requries nominative case "I" can't be used in any combination under any circumstances outside of incorrect grammar for affect. Sort of like 'Weg gets up", etc.

LazarusHeart said:

Dave1992 said:

But you are still viewing the phrase as two singular entities put together. "You and I" does replace "we" and vice versa, but the phrase "you and I" in this case replaces the single nominative.

Another example:

"I love you and I." This would suggest something like "I love the way we are". Not directly "us", as in "I love you and I also love myself".

It may sound strange and is hardly ever used in every-day conversation, but the grammatical idea itself is sound, and even more so as part of a musical lyric.

No, again you can't say "I love you and I"

Because, "You and I" is the object of the verb, and therefore the transitive statement has a subject (I), and an nominative set of pronouns "you and I".

Again, it can't be used in the nominative, and "You and I" does not replace "the way we are".

It's really very simple. If it's an object or requries nominative case "I" can't be used in any combination under any circumstances outside of incorrect grammar for affect. Sort of like 'Weg gets up", etc.

May I say, you have a very prescriptive view of grammar!

In modern grammar, sometimes an original subject can occur in a set of pronouns functioning as a nominative, as long as you don't "split" that set (like you do).

Think of "you and I" as the name of a song (= one entity = one thought). So, if "you and I" is meant to describe a certain state of being, one entity, not the sum of two entities (so the word "and" undergoes a change in function!) it becomes possible.

But this debate will probably never end, because we're coming from two different corners in grammar. Which is cool.

lust said:

A sprawling soundscape that is worthy of comparison with Band on the run and bohemian rhapsody. (not saying it's as good) If you haven't heard it for a long time. Break it out and revisit it. At the time it was released Prince had come through a prolonged era of incredible artistic experimenation not really seen again until The Rainbow Children. I think it was lost at the time when heard in that context. If he had released it now and we heard it in the context of the releases of the last decade. I think it would blow everyones mind. Put your phones on and play it now. What do u think?

Seriously, you're mad. It's no masterpeice. Arguably the worst track on the album in my view.

tintin said:

Dave1992 said:

LazarusHeart said:

No, again you can't say "I love you and I"

Because, "You and I" is the object of the verb, and therefore the transitive statement has a subject (I), and an nominative set of pronouns "you and I".

Again, it can't be used in the nominative, and "You and I" does not replace "the way we are".

It's really very simple. If it's an object or requries nominative case "I" can't be used in any combination under any circumstances outside of incorrect grammar for affect. Sort of like 'Weg gets up", etc.

May I say, you have a very prescriptive view of grammar!

In modern grammar, sometimes an original subject can occur in a set of pronouns functioning as a nominative, as long as you don't "split" that set (like you do).

Think of "you and I" as the name of a song (= one entity = one thought). So, if "you and I" is meant to describe a certain state of being, one entity, not the sum of two entities (so the word "and" undergoes a change in function!) it becomes possible.

But this debate will probably never end, because we're coming from two different corners in grammar. Which is cool.

It doesn't matter of you 'split' the pronoun "you and I" or consider a single entity. Nominative demands "me" to be used.

It's no different than saying "us". Nominative must be used in order for it to be grammatically correct regardless of one's 'approach' or prespective.

My point is that we can play with grammar and we can use it incorrectly for affect, and I get that. David Sedaris "Me Talk Pretty" is an example. However, just because people accept it for artistic reasons or they understand the meaning or have their own perspective on it does not make it correct. "You and me" is the only correct nominative use ever.

lust said:

tintin said:

Seriously, you're mad. It's no masterpeice. Arguably the worst track on the album in my view.

Perhaps, but I'll take madness over sanity if sanity prefers the flow and arrogance.

one of the worst tracks of his career in my opinion was My Name Is Prince which was also the lead single, three chains of gold was fantastic in my opinion, overblown to some, bombastic, over the top but to me it was fresh, I ain't no whiteboy, didn't grow up with meatloaf and queen and rock opera so it was a new thing for me with great musicianship, vocal arrangements, great guitar and drum work what's the fucking problem here?

petes2 said:

LazarusHeart said:

lust said:

thanks2joniandu said:

nah, it's one of his "mess-terpieces" ...lol. not quite a masterpiece, not quite a mess. I consider the symbol album a glorious mess-terpiece.

"mess-terpiece". I like that.

LOL! Me too! I think that's such a fitting description of that album. It is one of my faves, but there are some frustrating points like that god-awful ode to hip-hop on The Flow for one. But I've always said that there are some really great musical arrangements on that album. Also, listen to his vocals. That album holds some of Prince's best vocal delivery of his career. That was something I just discovered within the last six months. I was listening to the album one day and I just had to keep commenting on how tight his vocals were! He did a great job of using his vocals to tell the stories and convey the feeling of the songs on that album. Sometimes with Prince I get so lost in the music, that I forget the man is singing.

But, yes 3 Chains is a great song. I love the melody changes, the layering, the scream at the end--perfect Prince song.

[Edited 10/2/12 12:39pm]

lust said:

LazarusHeart said:

It doesn't matter of you 'split' the pronoun "you and I" or consider a single entity. Nominative demands "me" to be used.

It's no different than saying "us". Nominative must be used in order for it to be grammatically correct regardless of one's 'approach' or prespective.

My point is that we can play with grammar and we can use it incorrectly for affect, and I get that. David Sedaris "Me Talk Pretty" is an example. However, just because people accept it for artistic reasons or they understand the meaning or have their own perspective on it does not make it correct. "You and me" is the only correct nominative use ever.

How about if we move on from This or start a thread in general about grammar. Let's just say that the line is sung by an Arabian princess who's English is better than our Arabic.

Yeah!

Plus, "us" doesn't rhyme with "die".

For me, the most impressive thing about the song is Prince's powerful vocals. Especially the mutlti-layering. This is a great example of his incredible range!

IMHO

Prost!