I know this has been discussed before, but I always enjoy insights into this.

Prince is many things to many people. To some, a visionary with flawed execution.

To others, a high-end musician with a tendancy towards low-brow art. Or perhaps

a fringe artist who has through the courage of his own convictions and sheer talent

been in the mainstream. Still others, the most influential yet-to-be outed gay musician

in the history of the world.

Prince simply confounds and astounds.

But, to me the most interesting thing about the man is the feverish pace with which he

works.

Anyone who has listened to the new Andy Allo(sp?) track will see that he's producing

top rate material, even if the singer's voice is boring as hell. So, he's staying busy

even if he claims to be in song-writing rehab.

But even if he stopped writing songs last year(obviously is not true), considering

he's stated that he writes about a song a day, that's a staggering number of songs.

I know that in 95-ish, he told Oprah that he's written "a thousand some odd songs", but

I'm not sure if those are known released songs for himself and others, or if they

are the vault material.

Also, he once said there are now 'multiple vaults'.

Just how many songs are in those things exactly, do you think?

How many finished and ready to go? How many sketches?

How many mixes of judghead and wedding feast?

.

[Edited 6/13/12 9:16am]

The vault: or three

I think the collective vault is like Prince's diary. There is quality stuff, stuff to be worked on, and 'don't know what to do with it' stuff. Vault 3. has lyrics, Vault 2 has music and Vault 1 has a collection of both.

So, he goes to the vaults and he re-visits things. With some things he says 'what was I thinking?' It goes back for future reference. 200

Then he finds the average stuff (in his eyes) He's a perfectionist and thinks he needs to work on it because he doesn't believe that the very simplest of things from him would be good enough without extra work. (He also wants to keep busy) So he re-dresses and plays with them but in the end he's not happy with the way they've turned out; so they go back into the vaults for further hoarding. 400

Then he plays with the quality stuff. He knows it's good but he's worried about the stuff that's not yet reached its potential so he thinks...'hmmm no I better keep it.' 100

So the fans are left to sing 'Black water' by Octave one

'just open your heart...just open your mind
and let your love flow.... like the sunshine
deep in the desert.....when the rivers run dry
leaves one man thirsty.....leaves another to die

But it's not so bad. Then we go to 'everybody loves me tube' and bless Prince for leaving 'Joy in Repetition' NSJ live in excellent quality for us to enjoy, and celebrate with the other 'children' who've managed to escape from the vault!!

If the stuff in the vault was as good as he says it is he would have released a slew of platinum double albums after he left Warner. There’s a reason he releases crap like 20Ten instead of the stuff in the vault.

People in 2012 still think P is yet to be outed gay musician?

I'm interested in hearing the unreleased "hard rock" LP of The Time he talked about on MTV (with Kurt Loder).

Welp, it is curious. And I have my own hopes.

But when it comes to The Vault I am a wee bit skeptic. Much like Prince saying he can play so many instruments kind of being an overstatement. Fams! Hold back your fire! I KNOW the fucker can play a lot of instruments, but electric keyboard, digital keyboard, and keyboard are pretty much the same thing in my book (No rdhull, whistles don't count).

So when he says he has a couple thousand songs I'm thinking a good chunk are unfinished/sketches, and I don't count haikus on purple napkins stained with lip gloss and coffee as songs, sorry Prince. Love you!

I once asked Eric Leeds if there's a lot in the vault.

He answered that while he was working with Prince for every song that was released three or four went into the vault. Boggles the mind .....

Wow, he has also said he had many unreleased songs. Not Surpised

I'm guessing he and Larry waved a giant magnet over the Vault's tapes on Jan. 2, 2000.

Just a hunch.

imago said:

How many mixes of judghead and wedding feast?

Prince has unreleased material. How much, what quality, what time period, live, studio, demo, acoustic, audio or video? Who knows. But he certainly has unreleased material.

jodude911 said:

I once asked Eric Leeds if there's a lot in the vault.

He answered that while he was working with Prince for every song that was released three or four went into the vault. Boggles the mind .....

Sounds right. I asked around PP in the 90's. Response I got was over 1000 finished songs that do not configure on albums and I believe they said nearly 40 complete albums (meaning the album was tracked and had complete artwork and could be released at anytime) and also all the live recordings, film/video, etc.

SuperFurryAnimal said:

jodude911 said:

I once asked Eric Leeds if there's a lot in the vault.

He answered that while he was working with Prince for every song that was released three or four went into the vault. Boggles the mind .....

Sounds right. I asked around PP in the 90's. Response I got was over 1000 finished songs that do not configure on albums and I believe they said nearly 40 complete albums (meaning the album was tracked and had complete artwork and could be released at anytime) and also all the live recordings, film/video, etc.

Why does he do this? Is this normal with artists?

I guess I can understand having an idea and it just doesn't fit with the album that you are working on, so you sit on until later. But at some point this music and these songs are no longer really reflections of who he is. And as an artist don't you want your work to be representing you? Especially someon like Prince who ranges from sex-crazed cussing freak to socially conscious political activist to bible thumping prude. I think when he remakes the original to fit his current life, then it takes some of the soul out of the song - a la Extra Loveable.

So at some point everything in the vault is irrelavant. It no longer reflects who he is and if he tries to update it then it takes the original emotion out of the song, ruining it.

CallMeCarrie said:

SuperFurryAnimal said:

Sounds right. I asked around PP in the 90's. Response I got was over 1000 finished songs that do not configure on albums and I believe they said nearly 40 complete albums (meaning the album was tracked and had complete artwork and could be released at anytime) and also all the live recordings, film/video, etc.

Is this normal with artists?

Nooooooo. The norm is not having extra songs. Maybe some demos or ideas, but not extra, completed songs. Many bands/artists are still asked to write and record an extra song for the Japanese release of their album or some b-sides for their singles. And some of the time they'll still end up doing a cover song instead of writing a new one.

imago said:

Anyone who'se listen to the new Andy Allo(sp?) track will see that he's producing

top rate material, even if the singer's voice is boring as hell. So, he's staying busy

even if he claims to be on song-writing rehab.

But even if he stop writing songs last year, (which obviously is not true), considering

he's stated that he writes about a song a day, that's a staggering number of songs.

Glad to see you mention a recently produced song. He is only growing as a songs craftsman on the most fundamental level. I think a criticism of his recent output, is he doesn't have a strong facinating new attitude that governs his lyrics/production/visuals. I think he just need to get obsessed with a certain mood, new intrument, or agenda and he'll put out a great album.

But on the level of individual song craftsmanship of every color, he is up there with The Beatles in my opinion. He's got creative powers that are more practiced every day.

I'd like to think that prince has some perfect album or triple album of songs he was gonna put on records but they were just too fucking good to share with his fans. Like he is just putting out the outtakes and saving his best stuff for some mystery special occasion when he just wants to say fuck off to all of us and prove to everyone how fucking good he can be with one final masterpiece of a triple album that noone can deny is great.

I guess I subscribe to the prince clone theory that a fake prince took over during the name change and thats why the music quality dropped so dramatically starting with gold.

been listening to the come tracks on the dawn 4.whatever and they are sooooo much better than the gold tracks .. it really is like a different person .. don't know why because weren't all those tracks worked on at the same time kinda .. yet .. space,come,dark,letitgo, papa, pheremone,getloose .. all destroy all that crap shit like endorphine, now, wemarch, dolphin (that song is like half clone prince half real prince, can u guess which is which?, how beautiful starts so good .. then the chorus is like ... huh?)

anyway .. its more likely the vault is just a pile of crap worse than the records he puts out .. his official cds are so bad its hard to imagine what his outtakes look like these days

the only thing in the vault that might be interesting anymore is live recordings from his peak era .. that would definately be worthwhile .. there are only a few handfuls of great outtakes that could use a better quality listen .. everything else is just rubbish .. burn it

imago said:

But, to me the most interesting thing about the man is the feverish pace with which he

works.

Anyone who'se listen to the new Andy Allo(sp?) track will see that he's producing

top rate material, even if the singer's voice is boring as hell. So, he's staying busy

even if he claims to be on song-writing rehab.

I actually think he's far a better writer than producer. That's why a lot of his post-'95 work sounds better live than on record. I wish he'd let someone else produce his next album. I understand why he wants to do it all, but isn't he curious at all? Curious to hear what it would sound like? Such a shame this artist isn't very openminded when it comes to collaborating with other artists.

I'd say it is rife with selfplagiarism, unintended medleys, reused lyrics, reused guitar licks and Princes porn stash that he hid from Larry Graham.

Although some of the glimpses we've had show there is some worthwhile stuff in there it is by no means a gold mine of No.1 hits and Diamond albums.

TRC and LF (disc1) gave me faith that the legend is true.

He DOES have some unknown yet absolutely terrific stuff in there.

On the other hand, maybe those albums were just great moments of inspiration at the time and not any evidence of his unknown vault material...

Tremolina said:

TRC and LF (disc1) gave me faith that the legend is true.

He DOES have some unknown yet absolutely terrific stuff in there.

No. I'd go with this thought.....

Bohemian67 said:

Tremolina said:

TRC and LF (disc1) gave me faith that the legend is true.

He DOES have some unknown yet absolutely terrific stuff in there.

No. I'd go with this thought.....

I usually do, usually

Tremolina said:

I usually do, usually

Good. Keep it that way

CallMeCarrie said:

SuperFurryAnimal said:

Sounds right. I asked around PP in the 90's. Response I got was over 1000 finished songs that do not configure on albums and I believe they said nearly 40 complete albums (meaning the album was tracked and had complete artwork and could be released at anytime) and also all the live recordings, film/video, etc.

Why does he do this? Is this normal with artists?

I guess I can understand having an idea and it just doesn't fit with the album that you are working on, so you sit on until later. But at some point this music and these songs are no longer really reflections of who he is. And as an artist don't you want your work to be representing you? Especially someon like Prince who ranges from sex-crazed cussing freak to socially conscious political activist to bible thumping prude. I think when he remakes the original to fit his current life, then it takes some of the soul out of the song - a la Extra Loveable.

So at some point everything in the vault is irrelavant. It no longer reflects who he is and if he tries to update it then it takes the original emotion out of the song, ruining it.

Also, didn't Kevin Smith ask about the Vault when he was filming at PP? I guess we can add his footage to the mix too!

As far as the quality of the material in the Vault(s), I agree with everyone that it probably varies, and I do think it's pretty normal for artists to keep things (at different levels of completion) so that they can periodically rework them, or until they find the appropriate time to make them public.

The problem that CallMeCarrie brings up is always a risk, but I don't know if I'd go as far as to call the unreleased material irrelevant. Sometimes a particular work is valuable as a stepping stone to the project that follows it. I've heard of writers who would obsessively rework a text (often right up until their death!) and basically create an entirely new, different work (some would argue of lesser quality), but then there are two things to compare and appreciate, and it's interesting/frustrating to think about why those changes were made.

As far as the quantity, some artists are more prolific than others... Ultimately, I would hope that something like those presidential libraries or writers' estates gets set up to preserve everything inside.

Cerebus said:

CallMeCarrie said:

Is this normal with artists?

Nooooooo. The norm is not having extra songs. Maybe some demos or ideas, but not extra, completed songs. Many bands/artists are still asked to write and record an extra song for the Japanese release of their album or some b-sides for their singles. And some of the time they'll still end up doing a cover song instead of writing a new one.

That's what I assumed. So what could possibly be a reasonable explanation for hoarding songs like this - when he knows he isn't going to use them?

LittleBear said:

CallMeCarrie said:

Why does he do this? Is this normal with artists?

I guess I can understand having an idea and it just doesn't fit with the album that you are working on, so you sit on until later. But at some point this music and these songs are no longer really reflections of who he is. And as an artist don't you want your work to be representing you? Especially someon like Prince who ranges from sex-crazed cussing freak to socially conscious political activist to bible thumping prude. I think when he remakes the original to fit his current life, then it takes some of the soul out of the song - a la Extra Loveable.

So at some point everything in the vault is irrelavant. It no longer reflects who he is and if he tries to update it then it takes the original emotion out of the song, ruining it.

Also, didn't Kevin Smith ask about the Vault when he was filming at PP? I guess we can add his footage to the mix too!

As far as the quality of the material in the Vault(s), I agree with everyone that it probably varies, and I do think it's pretty normal for artists to keep things (at different levels of completion) so that they can periodically rework them, or until they find the appropriate time to make them public.

The problem that CallMeCarrie brings up is always a risk, but I don't know if I'd go as far as to call the unreleased material irrelevant. Sometimes a particular work is valuable as a stepping stone to the project that follows it. I've heard of writers who would obsessively rework a text (often right up until their death!) and basically create an entirely new, different work (some would argue of lesser quality), but then there are two things to compare and appreciate, and it's interesting/frustrating to think about why those changes were made.

As far as the quantity, some artists are more prolific than others... Ultimately, I would hope that something like those presidential libraries or writers' estates gets set up to preserve everything inside.

Ok - maybe irrelevant is not the best word to use. I just want him to put his shit out there. I'm in some sort of withdrawal.

CallMeCarrie said:

Cerebus said:

Nooooooo. The norm is not having extra songs. Maybe some demos or ideas, but not extra, completed songs. Many bands/artists are still asked to write and record an extra song for the Japanese release of their album or some b-sides for their singles. And some of the time they'll still end up doing a cover song instead of writing a new one.

That's what I assumed. So what could possibly be a reasonable explanation for hoarding songs like this - when he knows he isn't going to use them?

This is something that's been discussed a million different ways by a million different people since the first bootlegs of unreleased tracks started surfacing WAAAAY back in the day. "Well why didn't he release that?" Everybody has opinions, including people who are and have been close to him, but nobody really knows.

CallMeCarrie said:

Ok - maybe irrelevant is not the best word to use. I just want him to put his shit out there. I'm in some sort of withdrawal.

I know! I mean, if he doesn't want to put it ALL out there, why not let a few of us in? Just to listen and watch some stuff? Haha!

Cerebus said:

This is something that's been discussed a million different ways by a million different people since the first bootlegs of unreleased tracks started surfacing WAAAAY back in the day. "Well why didn't he release that?" Everybody has opinions, including people who are and have been close to him, but nobody really knows.

Hoarders, Paisley Park edition... I can help clear things out!

Anyone who is sceptical about the quality of The Vault doesn't know enough about what's contained within it and should go and read Per Nilsen's writings.