I've listened to and read more about Prince in the past 2 weeks than I have in the previous 20 years! The Eaton's Hill Show on Saturday though totally blew me away at the sheer summits at which Prince is in terms of talent and brilliance at what he does.

One song that was an absolute standout for me was "Mutiny" which built from the basic bassline through to an incredible frenzied crescendo. I was completely floored by the intensity and can't get it out of my mind even now.

And just listening to it a little while ago, it reminded me of another meme that was on my mind. I had remembered the line "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee,... Rumble young man rumble"... at the very end of the piece.

The brilliance of that one lyric shouldn't be underestimated!!

Prince had indeed delivered a total knockout blow with this piece and the classic line from Muhammad Ali was so utterly appropriate it was beyond just a throwaway line! I could literally have died that minute and been in bliss.

The power had to be experienced to be believed.

After thinking on this tonight, and I have touched on it in other posts lightly I realised how an alternative faith choice might have been possible for Prince.

The Muhammad Ali meme and line echoed in my mind, and the Sufi mysticism I feel when listening to songs like "Joy in Repetition" really made me think of Prince as a Sufi Master.

Religion as in organised religions is not the right word imo. Religion is subject to abuse and every one of them imo are without exception man-made; all of them.

And Prince is unfortunately in one of the most synthetic of them all I believe. Others may disagree. What struck me as even more remarkable was the song that delivered this knockout punch.... "Mutiny"....

I truly wonder whether Prince in his mind is about to take control of the ship once more. I think the concurrence of all these things suggested islam in a koran-alone context with sufism as a real possibility for him and I have stated why... Probably not a popular choice because of the bad press, but the evil force makes the most illuminating things seem like the absolute worst, and the most vile things seem the most fair.

He's a complex person for sure, and I keep finding amazing little things in everything he has done. I just thought the Muhammad Ali and his example of leaving his religion and then refining it further as he grew and the link with the power of Mutiny was an interesting meme; coincidence? I don't think so personally.

Peace.
[Edited 5/29/12 3:41am]

Hi,

Yes Prince is an extremely complex person, that is the attraction. He may well be at a crossroads in his life, we all know that he has walked through several.

What I do know is that since finding Jehovah he is forever altered and no matter which way he turns walks runs screams or explodes!! I know that he will never leave Jah. xxx

P&BW

It's still just a guess really...

I'd be lying if I said I too hadn't noticed an apparent lack of JW references so far this tour. I haven't heard him mention Jehovah, Jesus or the Bible specifically throughout any of the shows I've attended. His "message" so far has seemingly been nothing more than a very universal "love for one another" message, which even I as an Atheist/Agnostic can identify with.

Now... It could be a sign he's starting to drift from the Witnesses... OR... it could just be that he knows us Aussies are (on average) not as religious as some of his other audiences, and doesn't want to give the impression of rubbing our noses in it. JWs in Australia are a lot more of a minority than they are in the USA, for example. The honest answer I think is that we just don't know...

I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to read too much into his actions. For all we know he's playing "Mutiny" again because he lost a bet to St. Paul's butler .

Sometimes I think we read too much into his music/actions and often fall into the trap of seeing what we want to see...

.

[Edited 5/29/12 4:37am]

Balladium said:

I had remembered the line "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee,... Rumble young man rumble"... at the very end of the piece. The brilliance of that one lyric shouldn't be underestimated!! [/b]

Lyric?!

Whilst I'm sure Prince would like to claim ownership to everything he possibly can, like a dog pissing on every lamp-post, I doubt even he would wish to claim this for his own.

Don't give him ideas, he'll be on to those loony Muslims with the bow-ties next.

Actually, Prince always struck me as a cult leader type. I can imagine a whole bunch of fans literally drinking the cool-aid in a mass suicide pact at Paisley Park. I imagine Prince standing in one of the soundstages at PP playing a 90 minute version of 'God Is Alive' to a bunch bunch of dead bodies.

rat

vanstrass said:

Hi,

Yes Prince is an extremely complex person, that is the attraction. He may well be at a crossroads in his life, we all know that he has walked through several.

What I do know is that since finding Jehovah he is forever altered and no matter which way he turns walks runs screams or explodes!! I know that he will never leave Jah. xxx

P&BW

So so very true - could not help but notice he did not mention Jehovah or God much either at the two Brisbane shows but I did notice him motion to the band during Purple Rain to give thanks to God and also noticed the angel on the flag looked alot like it was stylised from a JW Publication.

It was smart to not mention religion though at a concert here as we are not as open about discussing it in Australia especially in a public place - but I have no doubt in my mind Prince will always believe in Jehovah.

NouveauDance said:

Don't give him ideas, he'll be on to those loony Muslims with the bow-ties next.

Actually, Prince always struck me as a cult leader type. I can imagine a whole bunch of fans literally drinking the cool-aid in a mass suicide pact at Paisley Park. I imagine Prince standing in one of the soundstages at PP playing a 90 minute version of 'God Is Alive' to a bunch bunch of dead bodies.

Wow, "those loony Muslims with the bow-ties" who have done more to help inner city men than most other organizations. Even as a Christian, I can recount many different ways that the Nation of Islam has been helpful to the inner city African American community. I did not know that concepts, such as self-love, self-determination, abstinence from drugs, alcohol, and pre-marital sex, the ability to educate young men from gang life, and the concept of developing businesses that promote the autonomy of the community are all "loony" concepts. Of course, as with any group, there are issues, but I did not know that it was "loony" for African Americans to want to help themselves and develop a community that meets its needs.

1725topp said:

NouveauDance said:

Don't give him ideas, he'll be on to those loony Muslims with the bow-ties next.

Actually, Prince always struck me as a cult leader type. I can imagine a whole bunch of fans literally drinking the cool-aid in a mass suicide pact at Paisley Park. I imagine Prince standing in one of the soundstages at PP playing a 90 minute version of 'God Is Alive' to a bunch bunch of dead bodies.

Wow, "those loony Muslims with the bow-ties" who have done more to help inner city men than most other organizations. Even as a Christian, I can recount many different ways that the Nation of Islam has been helpful to the inner city African American community. I did not know that concepts, such as self-love, self-determination, abstinence from drugs, alcohol, and pre-marital sex, the ability to educate young men from gang life, and the concept of developing businesses that promote the autonomy of the community are all "loony" concepts. Of course, as with any group, there are issues, but I did not know that it was "loony" for African Americans to want to help themselves and develop a community that meets its needs.

You know those guys are a UFO cult and not actually Muslims, right? They’re about as loony as it gets without being Heaven’s Gate. Doing a lot of good doesn’t make them any less crazy.

1725topp said:

NouveauDance said:

Don't give him ideas, he'll be on to those loony Muslims with the bow-ties next.

Actually, Prince always struck me as a cult leader type. I can imagine a whole bunch of fans literally drinking the cool-aid in a mass suicide pact at Paisley Park. I imagine Prince standing in one of the soundstages at PP playing a 90 minute version of 'God Is Alive' to a bunch bunch of dead bodies.

Wow, "those loony Muslims with the bow-ties" who have done more to help inner city men than most other organizations. Even as a Christian, I can recount many different ways that the Nation of Islam has been helpful to the inner city African American community. I did not know that concepts, such as self-love, self-determination, abstinence from drugs, alcohol, and pre-marital sex, the ability to educate young men from gang life, and the concept of developing businesses that promote the autonomy of the community are all "loony" concepts. Of course, as with any group, there are issues, but I did not know that it was "loony" for African Americans to want to help themselves and develop a community that meets its needs.

Nation of Islam, that's it - I always forget their name, at least they're snappy dressers.

I guess they wouldn't let a drag queen like Prince in, but $$$$ does speak louder than high heels, ask the JWs.

1725topp said:

NouveauDance said:

Don't give him ideas, he'll be on to those loony Muslims with the bow-ties next.

Actually, Prince always struck me as a cult leader type. I can imagine a whole bunch of fans literally drinking the cool-aid in a mass suicide pact at Paisley Park. I imagine Prince standing in one of the soundstages at PP playing a 90 minute version of 'God Is Alive' to a bunch bunch of dead bodies.

Wow, "those loony Muslims with the bow-ties" who have done more to help inner city men than most other organizations. Even as a Christian, I can recount many different ways that the Nation of Islam has been helpful to the inner city African American community. I did not know that concepts, such as self-love, self-determination, abstinence from drugs, alcohol, and pre-marital sex, the ability to educate young men from gang life, and the concept of developing businesses that promote the autonomy of the community are all "loony" concepts. Of course, as with any group, there are issues, but I did not know that it was "loony" for African Americans to want to help themselves and develop a community that meets its needs.

Sure. Ever y proselytizing religion helps their communities hoping in return to win converts to their faith thereby increasing their number, influence and tithing so they can have a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus. Again, there's no such thing as altruism.

But you forgot to add to the list that, like christianity, women are 2nd class citizens AT BEST. Muslims aren't necessarily looney. Not any more than non-muslims. People can be stupid regardless of religion. Too bad it's only cute for CHILDREN to believe in a kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin. Why can't they stay cute as adults believing in a slightly different kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin while the rest of us smile knowingly at each other - all the while wondering when we'll have to break it to them that "Santa" isn't real? Alas, there are so many truly innocent of intellect.

There may well be a god or higher being of some type. The odds of him/her/it being the god of ANY translation of the bible are very unlikely. Plus, the god of the bible, (especially the decidedly non-hippy version of the old testament) is a dickhead.

From the bible:

Noah passes out drunk. One of his grandchildren goes into his tent NOT KNOWING that his drunk-assed grandfather is laying there with his legs all spread exposing his junk under the bath robe that passed for clothing in those days. Noah wakes up and notices that the boy ACCIDENTALLY saw his drunken love-gear BECAUSE OF his drunken foolishness and as punishment he sells the kid into slavery. Apparently, in very primitive cultures who like to invent asshole gods to worship, seeing your drunk grandfather's wedding-tackle by accident, (or at the very least because of the gradfather's drunken negligence) was a serious enough offense to get your very young ass sold into slavery. If Noah was the best humanity had to offer and god decided to save HIM from the flood it's really no wonder that our world is sooo screwed-up.

Did I mention that the godliest man alive at the time sold his grandson into slavery because the goldiest man in the world got drunk and passed out in his tent with his dong exposed for any unsuspecting person to see?

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!!!

[Edited 5/29/12 8:54am]

NouveauDance said:

Nation of Islam, that's it - I always forget their name, at least they're snappy dressers.

I guess they wouldn't let a drag queen like Prince in, but $$$$ does speak louder than high heels, ask the JWs.

I don't doubt that money may or may not speak louder than heels. I know that Louis Farrakhan praised Prince for allowing them (a joint effort of black organizations not just the Nation of Islam) to use "We March" as a theme for the Million Man March. My only point is that for all of the controversy and issues, there have been fewer organizations, NAACP, SNCC, and the black Christian church included, that have done more work within the inner cities to improve the condition of African Americans through acutal programs. What I like most about them is that they, unlike many others, have a history of working with other groups who may have differing ideologies for the common good of the African American community.

steakfinger said:

Sure. Ever y proselytizing religion helps their communities hoping in return to win converts to their faith thereby increasing their number, influence and tithing so they can have a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus. Again, there's no such thing as altruism.

But you forgot to add to the list that, like christianity, women are 2nd class citizens AT BEST. Muslims aren't necessarily looney. Not any more than non-muslims. People can be stupid regardless of religion. Too bad it's only cute for CHILDREN to believe in a kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin. Why can't they stay cute as adults believing in a slightly different kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin while the rest of us smile knowingly at each other - all the while wondering when we'll have to break it to them that "Santa" isn't real? Alas, there are so many truly innocent of intellect.

There may well be a god or higher being of some type. The odds of him/her/it being the god of ANY translation of the bible are very unlikely. Plus, the god of the bible, (especially the decidedly non-hippy version of the old testament) is a dickhead.

From the bible:

Noah passes out drunk. One of his grandchildren goes into his tent NOT KNOWING that his drunk-assed grandfather is laying there with his legs all spread exposing his junk under the bath robe that passed for clothing in those days. Noah wakes up and notices that the boy ACCIDENTALLY saw his drunken love-gear BECAUSE OF his drunken foolishness and as punishment he sells the kid into slavery. Apparently, in very primitive cultures who like to invent asshole gods to worship, seeing your drunk grandfather's wedding-tackle by accident, (or at the very least because of the gradfather's drunken negligence) was a serious enough offense to get your very young ass sold into slavery. If Noah was the best humanity had to offer and god decided to save HIM from the flood it's really no wonder that our world is sooo screwed-up.

Did I mention that the godliest man alive at the time sold his grandson into slavery because the goldiest man in the world got drunk and passed out in his tent with his dong exposed for any unsuspecting person to see?

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!!!

[Edited 5/29/12 8:54am]

I said I would no longer respond to these types of comments because of how the discussions always end, but something just won't let me not respond to half-truths. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but tell the truth in the disagreement.

*

While I can't empirically prove that there is a god, you can't empirically prove that there isn't a god so we'd just be going around in circles with this one. However, it is notable to add that some of the greatest scientific thinkers believed in a higher power, such as Einstein, and Newton, the so-called father of calculus and much of what is considered the scientific approach to life, was a Christian who devoted much of his time to discovering the truths of the Bible. That pretty much debunks your theory that believing in a god or practicing an organized religion produces "a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus." I could continue to list more, but why bother.

*

Secondly, your interpretation of the story of Noah's drunkenness is worse than those people who use Noah's curse of his son to justify slavery. One, Noah never sold his son into slavery. He did curse his son, essentially saying that because you failed to protect your father during his time of vulnerability you will be cursed not to be able to protect your son from being a servant. As for the notion of whether or not Noah was the "best that humanity had to offer," the main point about Christianity, which is echoed throughout the Bible is that God--in this case Jehovah--does not expect perfection and that all people with flaws have the opportunity to gain grace if they want it. In fact, one of the best aspects of the Bible is that is shows how very flawed people can become heroic or merely upstanding citizens. And remember, Noah's drunkenness came after the flood during a family celebration. Another name for alcohol is spirits because drinking alcohol is a symbol of friendship as one should only drink with those one can trust. In this case, Noah's son was the "dickhead" who, after finding his father passed out and nude, went and told his brothers to make a spectacle of the event rather than simply covering his father. I would hope that if you found a family member in the same circumstance you would react in just the opposite of Noah's son. And the larger point made by combining the Old and New Testaments is that because of mankind's perversion, humanity created this chaotic world that needed rules, but those rules, while still in existence, have been superseded by grace as Jesus says "In the past you were taught to live by the law, but now the law has passed and by grace are you saved." So love is more important than law, and the same Old Testament God that gave the law is the same New Testament God who gave his only begotten so (for death) so that all who believe in Him can be saved and have everlasting life. Yeah, some dickhead. Even if this is all a myth, the message of the myth is that while humans need rules they need grace just as much and the struggle is to learn to balance the law and the grace. When someone robs someone, we law to protect us from that person's actions, but we also need grace to help that person to no longer rob people. So based on grace and the story of Jesus' sacrifice, I wonder what sacrifices have you made for someone or how loving you've been toward your fellowman. Based on your post, I'm glad that I'm not your neighbor and accidentally clipped your roses. I wonder if you would forgive me or tell everyone in town that I'm a dickhead.

*

As for the Bible being sexist--which somebody else mentioned, my response is reading is fundamental and hearsay is the first step to doing or saying stupid stuff. So, let’s view what the Bible actually says: "Woman submit thyself to a man as he submits to God." The problem with this passage is that far too many sexist men have used the first half of it to justify their sexism. However, if the passage is read in full, it clearly states that no one should be interacting with anyone who is not living a righteous life. So, the real issue is not the sexism of the Bible but the inability of many people to read for full comprehension along with the need and ability of many to misuse any text--the Bible, the Koran, the Declaration of Independence, or Darwinism--to justify their evil.

*

So, no, you can't get an "amen" because your points or premises are flawed at best and purposefully misleading at worst, which seems to make you guilty of the very things of which you are accusing others. Now, post your response and that will be the end of this exchange because I've learned it is not very constructive to engage in this debate with someone with a fixed mind who just as an ax to grind and is not really looking for objective, well-documented debate. Peace and be wild!

toejam said:

It's still just a guess really...

I'd be lying if I said I too hadn't noticed an apparent lack of JW references so far this tour. I haven't heard him mention Jehovah, Jesus or the Bible specifically throughout any of the shows I've attended. His "message" so far has seemingly been nothing more than a very universal "love for one another" message, which even I as an Atheist/Agnostic can identify with.

Now... It could be a sign he's starting to drift from the Witnesses... OR... it could just be that he knows us Aussies are (on average) not as religious as some of his other audiences, and doesn't want to give the impression of rubbing our noses in it. JWs in Australia are a lot more of a minority than they are in the USA, for example. The honest answer I think is that we just don't know...

I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to read too much into his actions. For all we know he's playing "Mutiny" again because he lost a bet to St. Paul's butler .

Sometimes I think we read too much into his music/actions and often fall into the trap of seeing what we want to see...

.

[Edited 5/29/12 4:37am]

Totally agree with you here! We really don't know with Prince..We might think we know..But if we read too much into this. Prince says a lot of things just to bring out emotions...I think? lol

It's true if we do it too much, it's as what we want to see..and not of what is really there.

1725topp said:

steakfinger said:

Sure. Ever y proselytizing religion helps their communities hoping in return to win converts to their faith thereby increasing their number, influence and tithing so they can have a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus. Again, there's no such thing as altruism.

But you forgot to add to the list that, like christianity, women are 2nd class citizens AT BEST. Muslims aren't necessarily looney. Not any more than non-muslims. People can be stupid regardless of religion. Too bad it's only cute for CHILDREN to believe in a kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin. Why can't they stay cute as adults believing in a slightly different kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin while the rest of us smile knowingly at each other - all the while wondering when we'll have to break it to them that "Santa" isn't real? Alas, there are so many truly innocent of intellect.

There may well be a god or higher being of some type. The odds of him/her/it being the god of ANY translation of the bible are very unlikely. Plus, the god of the bible, (especially the decidedly non-hippy version of the old testament) is a dickhead.

From the bible:

Noah passes out drunk. One of his grandchildren goes into his tent NOT KNOWING that his drunk-assed grandfather is laying there with his legs all spread exposing his junk under the bath robe that passed for clothing in those days. Noah wakes up and notices that the boy ACCIDENTALLY saw his drunken love-gear BECAUSE OF his drunken foolishness and as punishment he sells the kid into slavery. Apparently, in very primitive cultures who like to invent asshole gods to worship, seeing your drunk grandfather's wedding-tackle by accident, (or at the very least because of the gradfather's drunken negligence) was a serious enough offense to get your very young ass sold into slavery. If Noah was the best humanity had to offer and god decided to save HIM from the flood it's really no wonder that our world is sooo screwed-up.

Did I mention that the godliest man alive at the time sold his grandson into slavery because the goldiest man in the world got drunk and passed out in his tent with his dong exposed for any unsuspecting person to see?

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!!!

[Edited 5/29/12 8:54am]

I said I would no longer respond to these types of comments because of how the discussions always end, but something just won't let me not respond to half-truths. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but tell the truth in the disagreement.

*

While I can't empirically prove that there is a god, you can't empirically prove that there isn't a god so we'd just be going around in circles with this one. However, it is notable to add that some of the greatest scientific thinkers believed in a higher power, such as Einstein, and Newton, the so-called father of calculus and much of what is considered the scientific approach to life, was a Christian who devoted much of his time to discovering the truths of the Bible. That pretty much debunks your theory that believing in a god or practicing an organized religion produces "a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus." I could continue to list more, but why bother.

*

Secondly, your interpretation of the story of Noah's drunkenness is worse than those people who use Noah's curse of his son to justify slavery. One, Noah never sold his son into slavery. He did curse his son, essentially saying that because you failed to protect your father during his time of vulnerability you will be cursed not to be able to protect your son from being a servant. As for the notion of whether or not Noah was the "best that humanity had to offer," the main point about Christianity, which is echoed throughout the Bible is that God--in this case Jehovah--does not expect perfection and that all people with flaws have the opportunity to gain grace if they want it. In fact, one of the best aspects of the Bible is that is shows how very flawed people can become heroic or merely upstanding citizens. And remember, Noah's drunkenness came after the flood during a family celebration. Another name for alcohol is spirits because drinking alcohol is a symbol of friendship as one should only drink with those one can trust. In this case, Noah's son was the "dickhead" who, after finding his father passed out and nude, went and told his brothers to make a spectacle of the event rather than simply covering his father. I would hope that if you found a family member in the same circumstance you would react in just the opposite of Noah's son. And the larger point made by combining the Old and New Testaments is that because of mankind's perversion, humanity created this chaotic world that needed rules, but those rules, while still in existence, have been superseded by grace as Jesus says "In the past you were taught to live by the law, but now the law has passed and by grace are you saved." So love is more important than law, and the same Old Testament God that gave the law is the same New Testament God who gave his only begotten so (for death) so that all who believe in Him can be saved and have everlasting life. Yeah, some dickhead. Even if this is all a myth, the message of the myth is that while humans need rules they need grace just as much and the struggle is to learn to balance the law and the grace. When someone robs someone, we law to protect us from that person's actions, but we also need grace to help that person to no longer rob people. So based on grace and the story of Jesus' sacrifice, I wonder what sacrifices have you made for someone or how loving you've been toward your fellowman. Based on your post, I'm glad that I'm not your neighbor and accidentally clipped your roses. I wonder if you would forgive me or tell everyone in town that I'm a dickhead.

*

As for the Bible being sexist--which somebody else mentioned, my response is reading is fundamental and hearsay is the first step to doing or saying stupid stuff. So, let’s view what the Bible actually says: "Woman submit thyself to a man as he submits to God." The problem with this passage is that far too many sexist men have used the first half of it to justify their sexism. However, if the passage is read in full, it clearly states that no one should be interacting with anyone who is not living a righteous life. So, the real issue is not the sexism of the Bible but the inability of many people to read for full comprehension along with the need and ability of many to misuse any text--the Bible, the Koran, the Declaration of Independence, or Darwinism--to justify their evil.

*

So, no, you can't get an "amen" because your points or premises are flawed at best and purposefully misleading at worst, which seems to make you guilty of the very things of which you are accusing others. Now, post your response and that will be the end of this exchange because I've learned it is not very constructive to engage in this debate with someone with a fixed mind who just as an ax to grind and is not really looking for objective, well-documented debate. Peace and be wild!

You know I got to agree with you here! Wonderfully said! Took the words OUT of my mouth!

Peace and Love!

I always enjoy hearing others opinions on religion and faith. In my life, I have had times of strong faith and times where It has been lacking.

Maybe this is what is going on with Prince. Does it matter?

Maybe as stated before it is a matter of respect for the country he is in? Or maybe he's just being private. Maybe he is questioning the JW faith? I believe he is still a Christian. He may just be going through something personal, but unlike the rest of us it is on a stage for all to see.

1725topp said:

steakfinger said:

Sure. Ever y proselytizing religion helps their communities hoping in return to win converts to their faith thereby increasing their number, influence and tithing so they can have a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus. Again, there's no such thing as altruism.

But you forgot to add to the list that, like christianity, women are 2nd class citizens AT BEST. Muslims aren't necessarily looney. Not any more than non-muslims. People can be stupid regardless of religion. Too bad it's only cute for CHILDREN to believe in a kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin. Why can't they stay cute as adults believing in a slightly different kind, gift-giving, magical bearded old man of fictional or quasi-fictional origin while the rest of us smile knowingly at each other - all the while wondering when we'll have to break it to them that "Santa" isn't real? Alas, there are so many truly innocent of intellect.

There may well be a god or higher being of some type. The odds of him/her/it being the god of ANY translation of the bible are very unlikely. Plus, the god of the bible, (especially the decidedly non-hippy version of the old testament) is a dickhead.

From the bible:

Noah passes out drunk. One of his grandchildren goes into his tent NOT KNOWING that his drunk-assed grandfather is laying there with his legs all spread exposing his junk under the bath robe that passed for clothing in those days. Noah wakes up and notices that the boy ACCIDENTALLY saw his drunken love-gear BECAUSE OF his drunken foolishness and as punishment he sells the kid into slavery. Apparently, in very primitive cultures who like to invent asshole gods to worship, seeing your drunk grandfather's wedding-tackle by accident, (or at the very least because of the gradfather's drunken negligence) was a serious enough offense to get your very young ass sold into slavery. If Noah was the best humanity had to offer and god decided to save HIM from the flood it's really no wonder that our world is sooo screwed-up.

Did I mention that the godliest man alive at the time sold his grandson into slavery because the goldiest man in the world got drunk and passed out in his tent with his dong exposed for any unsuspecting person to see?

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!!!

[Edited 5/29/12 8:54am]

I said I would no longer respond to these types of comments because of how the discussions always end, but something just won't let me not respond to half-truths. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but tell the truth in the disagreement.

*

While I can't empirically prove that there is a god, you can't empirically prove that there isn't a god so we'd just be going around in circles with this one. However, it is notable to add that some of the greatest scientific thinkers believed in a higher power, such as Einstein, and Newton, the so-called father of calculus and much of what is considered the scientific approach to life, was a Christian who devoted much of his time to discovering the truths of the Bible. That pretty much debunks your theory that believing in a god or practicing an organized religion produces "a whole world of boring-ass underachievers who have no reason to exist other than to be on bended knee in feverish prayer to something not unlike Santa Claus." I could continue to list more, but why bother.

*

Secondly, your interpretation of the story of Noah's drunkenness is worse than those people who use Noah's curse of his son to justify slavery. One, Noah never sold his son into slavery. He did curse his son, essentially saying that because you failed to protect your father during his time of vulnerability you will be cursed not to be able to protect your son from being a servant. As for the notion of whether or not Noah was the "best that humanity had to offer," the main point about Christianity, which is echoed throughout the Bible is that God--in this case Jehovah--does not expect perfection and that all people with flaws have the opportunity to gain grace if they want it. In fact, one of the best aspects of the Bible is that is shows how very flawed people can become heroic or merely upstanding citizens. And remember, Noah's drunkenness came after the flood during a family celebration. Another name for alcohol is spirits because drinking alcohol is a symbol of friendship as one should only drink with those one can trust. In this case, Noah's son was the "dickhead" who, after finding his father passed out and nude, went and told his brothers to make a spectacle of the event rather than simply covering his father. I would hope that if you found a family member in the same circumstance you would react in just the opposite of Noah's son. And the larger point made by combining the Old and New Testaments is that because of mankind's perversion, humanity created this chaotic world that needed rules, but those rules, while still in existence, have been superseded by grace as Jesus says "In the past you were taught to live by the law, but now the law has passed and by grace are you saved." So love is more important than law, and the same Old Testament God that gave the law is the same New Testament God who gave his only begotten so (for death) so that all who believe in Him can be saved and have everlasting life. Yeah, some dickhead. Even if this is all a myth, the message of the myth is that while humans need rules they need grace just as much and the struggle is to learn to balance the law and the grace. When someone robs someone, we law to protect us from that person's actions, but we also need grace to help that person to no longer rob people. So based on grace and the story of Jesus' sacrifice, I wonder what sacrifices have you made for someone or how loving you've been toward your fellowman. Based on your post, I'm glad that I'm not your neighbor and accidentally clipped your roses. I wonder if you would forgive me or tell everyone in town that I'm a dickhead.

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As for the Bible being sexist--which somebody else mentioned, my response is reading is fundamental and hearsay is the first step to doing or saying stupid stuff. So, let’s view what the Bible actually says: "Woman submit thyself to a man as he submits to God." The problem with this passage is that far too many sexist men have used the first half of it to justify their sexism. However, if the passage is read in full, it clearly states that no one should be interacting with anyone who is not living a righteous life. So, the real issue is not the sexism of the Bible but the inability of many people to read for full comprehension along with the need and ability of many to misuse any text--the Bible, the Koran, the Declaration of Independence, or Darwinism--to justify their evil.

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So, no, you can't get an "amen" because your points or premises are flawed at best and purposefully misleading at worst, which seems to make you guilty of the very things of which you are accusing others. Now, post your response and that will be the end of this exchange because I've learned it is not very constructive to engage in this debate with someone with a fixed mind who just as an ax to grind and is not really looking for objective, well-documented debate. Peace and be wild!

there is no circle, just a straight line.. you can't prove your god exists... and we keep going staight on to the next crazy idea.

RicoN said:

there is no circle, just a straight line.. you can't prove your god exists... and we keep going staight on to the next crazy idea.

You do know that reading is fundamental, right? I opened by saying that I can't empirically prove that any god--not just my god--exist, and neither can you nor the person to whom I was responding empirically disprove that god exists. It would seem that to your expert scientific brain, this premise would be science 101. Additionally, there have been many so-called crazy ideas that have been proven to be true or accurate. Just because they don't seem crazy to us now does not mean that many of the basic ideas humanity holds as truth, fact, and fundamental to how we understand life were not once considered "crazy ideas." By the way, your straight line theory has already been disproved because human development, evolution, mutation, or whatever you want to call it rarely proceeds in a straight line, so who has the crazy idea now?