Tony M, seriously! So glad somebody else mentioned that. Because I will always believe the albums he was on would be better and possibly more succesful if he wasn't.

The lack of understanding/caring what it takes to REALLY promote an album after he gained full control of that aspect of his career. If he had actually tried, stayed focused and worked his albums for a year or two, instead of just expecting everything to magically happen on it's own, I think everything would be different now. His apparant indifference to such things lost him a lot of positive attention, coverage, face time, etc. etc.

Emancipation. Because that's the album that should have brought all the doubters back into the fold and he blew it on multiple levels.

Can't really give a single moment. It's more like, the 90s post "Diamonds & Pearls", up to "The Rainbow Children". There's a lot of music in there that I love, but I think that's the period where things went all wonky to the point where people starting dropping off and not returning.

Oh lawd, I forgot to mention his MTV TRL appearance in promotion of Rave Un2 The Joy fantastic.

There was this über awkward moment where Carson Daly compliments Prince by saying in an age of plastic music, Prince's music stands out and stands the test of time.

Daly's comment was obviously meant to show that Prince's music was real music.

Prince says, "What?"....."I don't understand. What do you mean?" in a very snippy accusatory tone. The air was very tense when this happened.

Carson explained himself, and instead of graciously taking the compliment, Prince further pushes this tense moment by saying, "And you wouldn't have anything to do with that, would you?"

At which point, Carson does something I'm pretty sure Prince was not used to having to put up with in his little world---Carson defended his point of view.

He explained, "I'm like a bartender. I may not like the drinks that I serve, but they are the drinks my customers ordered."

Prince gave a sarcastic and weak "ok?" with a shit eating grin and shrug--it was cringeworthy and embarassing.

You have to remember this was around the same time that his website was name-calling frustrated fans (who had gotten merchandise late or been treated with disregard) "haters", when several fansites were threatened with lawsuits (I believe 8 in total were shut down), and when he publicized that embarassing open letter to Madonna.

Prince had missed the boat in capatilizing on 1999, noted by many of his fans, and the likes of Chris Rock.

So, what does he do? He appears on TRL---a venue that sucks ass for sure, but it was popular around a a large demographic of younger people.

He appears on there---during a period where many young folks didn't exactly know much about him. IT would be like Little Richard showin gup on a late 80s show and bragging that guest stars Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry were going to perform----unfortunately the late 80s top 40 crowd will find that underwhelming. Well, Prince shows up, and starts talking about how Larry Graham and Chaka Kahn were going to be appearing on his shows, etc. etc.

It was just a poorly booekd venue for Prince, and instead of show grace and curteousness, he came off as creepy and arrogant.

He certainly didn't win over many converts that day.

.

[Edited 4/21/12 1:33am]

prime said:

Prince wispering in Mayte's ear to answer for him

was this perhaps a blackbolt reference on prince's part?

Cerebus said:

Emancipation. Because that's the album that should have brought all the doubters back into the fold and he blew it on multiple levels.

No. It wasn't his fault at all that EMI went bankrupt only a few months after emancipation was released.

I'd like to add something..(and I apologize if it's already been mentioned).....

The "Under The Cherry Moon" MTV premiere party. I remember watching that on TV and I couldn't believe it. From what I've read he originally planned to cancel it at the last minute...

..and I wouldn't have blamed him either.

By that time he had lost a lot of his mystique. I think the "Christopher Tracy" character vs "The Kid" was night and day. When I saw P laughing and joking and acting a fool (in the movie and the MTV party) I couldn't believe it was him. Definetly a low moment.

But I will say the partial live jam at the end of the show was slammin'.

The interview when he had his face all covered up and wouldn't talk but Mayte was talking for him. Was he dressed in orange or red? I recently saw it and felt it was his low point. This might sound off topic but I am going to state that Queen Nefertiti would never do that to her man, even if she had to share him with other wives. The other wives may have thought something up like covering his face and thinking it was funny. Who would do that to the Pharoh?.

*When Sign Of The Times lost to U2 - Joshua Tree for Grammy Best Album.

That SUCKED!

ludwig said:

Cerebus said:

Emancipation. Because that's the album that should have brought all the doubters back into the fold and he blew it on multiple levels.

No. It wasn't his fault at all that EMI went bankrupt only a few months after emancipation was released.

I agree. But they didn't write the songs, produce the music, choose the songs to put on the riduculously long album, choose the "wtf?!" singles, create the cover art or seemingly forget about the album when people didn't like it as much as Prince hoped they would.

Cerebus said:

ludwig said:

No. It wasn't his fault at all that EMI went bankrupt only a few months after emancipation was released.

I agree. But they didn't write the songs, produce the music, choose the songs to put on the riduculously long album, choose the "wtf?!" singles, create the cover art or seemingly forget about the album when people didn't like it as much as Prince hoped they would.

Yes, let's face it. Emancipation sucked. I was a huge fan at the time and I got sucked it by all the "album he was born to make", "this is what freedom sounds like" BS. I tried to convince all my friends that it was a work of genius at the time. Looking back now, it was a huge disappointment - considering all the hype. Maybe there was enough Ok stuff on it for one mediocre CD. It was just so bland. Very slightly funky elevator music. Not to mention "We get's up" - even at the time I knew that was shyte.

And the Oprah interview, with Mayte. How excruciating was that?

Cerebus said:

ludwig said:

No. It wasn't his fault at all that EMI went bankrupt only a few months after emancipation was released.

I agree. But they didn't write the songs, produce the music, choose the songs to put on the riduculously long album, choose the "wtf?!" singles, create the cover art or seemingly forget about the album when people didn't like it as much as Prince hoped they would.

jonylawson said:

skipp3Rn3ls0n said:

The Gangsta Glam music video

Is there really anything else to say about it?

awww hell no

that video is class!

Now, I'm working from memory here ( though I have it VHS somewhere). Is that the video in which we have the exquisite pleasure of seeing Tony M in a 1930's style bathing suit? And Prince in what can only be described as...well....something not entirely dissimilar to a mankini??

I was intrigued by that video because there's a point in it where you see Prince's bare legs and feet.....just a flash for a nanosecond....its the only time I've ever seen them. There's some nice roller skate work too...in the carpark of Paisley park

Ah memories. I agree it was a bit crap....but I still love that shit....that era. There was something kinda fun about it. The something fun most definitely wasn't Tony M though...just to be clear.

In no particular order...

1. His elf makeup look during the Beautiful Experience era. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

2. His Daddy Pop dance moves on Arsenio, where the Gameboys practically simulated ass sex with him. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

3. Releasing Graffiti Bridge. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

4. Releasing "Everybody Loves Me". Seriously? This is the same guy who wrote When Doves Cry? For reals?

5. Releasing UTCM in Black and White.

6. Changing his name to an unpronounceable symbol. For reals????

7. The Lovesexy Album cover. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

8. Leaving Warner Brothers. I get it. I do. But at least get a good manager! You can't do it all yourself, and assume you're right all the time.

9. Not doing We Are the World. There's ego. And then there's EGO.

10. Not releasing Adore as a single.

MantuaPharoah said:

In no particular order...

1. His elf makeup look during the Beautiful Experience era. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

2. His Daddy Pop dance moves on Arsenio, where the Gameboys practically simulated ass sex with him. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

3. Releasing Graffiti Bridge. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

4. Releasing "Everybody Loves Me". Seriously? This is the same guy who wrote When Doves Cry? For reals?

6. Changing his name to an unpronounceable symbol. For reals????

7. The Lovesexy Album cover. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

10. Not releasing Adore as a single.

I feel you on these.....the whole heavy make-up look 93-96 was soooo EMBARRASING. How he looked at the World Music awards with the make-up and shoulder pads. My boys would look at me like I was crazy.

I disagree with #2. I'm not sure why so many folks hate on Tony M. Yes. He wasn't the best rapper but on Diamond and Pearls he brought something to the music that Prince was missing. It help bring a lot of people back and help bring the black community back. There was a lot of cats in my hood bumpin' Diamond and Pears where a two years before were like "what's up with that ni__a ....you like him?" Plus, it was nice to see Prince dancing and the Arsensio Hall show in '91 was one of his highest rated and most requested (for a repeat) episodes. Great episode, but the '92 episode was weak....long hair....too much Tony M....tried to hard to go Hip Hop. Diamond and Pearls was just enough.

Graffitt Bridge was sooooo EMBRASSING!!!!

The thing about the name change I hated was all the lies....it was the other person in me....my spirit told me to do it...bluh bluh

The whold LoveSexy look (album cover, briefs and garter belts...my goodness).

Adore is still under played....been to maybe 6 shows and never heard it (at least a full version). SMH

Well, I do think their are so many to choose from 30+ years in the game!

..One that comes to mind is; his website shut downs and relation to his material online.

The fact that he try to fight with 'Fan-sites' and at one time was so obsessive and possessive over his material online. I think this is one of the worst aspects regarding Prince and his relation to his material.

To know he was the FIRST artist to release a whole album online, and make a profit from it. Being one of the first artists ever, to utilize the internet to distribute his music. Being the pioneer and revolutionist of the internet that he is...I don't understand how this backfired on him?

His websites are a perfect medium to get his music, and enjoy his expression. SO I don't understand how something that had the potential to mature and expand, could become so limited and so STRICT.

Why would he NOT allow his music on YouTube, and not care to STICK with websites, instead we have to find out about his news via HERE or Drfunkenberry. Which is OK, but back in 01-04, and years after..I think that medium of communication and detail was impressive.

Even if people did not get everything they were promised and payed for..lol

I kind of understand what his mindset is, but I think he was at one time FAR too serious about Youtube, and fans that used his image and music.The fact that he wanted to OWN ALL images of his face, and previous lifestyles.

I mean his fight with people who appreciated his image, is self-defeating.

BUT..Hey..

That is what comes to mind now..Their many if we really look at it all in depth.

Let's not forget HIM Trying to edit, and change what he did in the past. I know he has a new life, but his old past should reflect the mindset he had at the time. He doesn't have to curse now, and be as raunchy. That time is over, BUT when he was like that...He should leave that in its place. He should not try to change what happen.

I mean..If he chooses to release his older material again, I hope he doesn't edit them. When he performs them, of course he has to. But not when they are released..lol

O Yeah..'Duck' instead of F*ck"

Haha

prime said:

MantuaPharoah said:

In no particular order...

1. His elf makeup look during the Beautiful Experience era. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

2. His Daddy Pop dance moves on Arsenio, where the Gameboys practically simulated ass sex with him. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

3. Releasing Graffiti Bridge. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

4. Releasing "Everybody Loves Me". Seriously? This is the same guy who wrote When Doves Cry? For reals?

6. Changing his name to an unpronounceable symbol. For reals????

7. The Lovesexy Album cover. It was EMBARRASING to be a male Prince fan.

10. Not releasing Adore as a single.

I feel you on these.....the whole heavy make-up look 93-96 was soooo EMBARRASING. How he looked at the World Music awards with the make-up and shoulder pads. My boys would look at me like I was crazy.

I disagree with #2. I'm not sure why so many folks hate on Tony M. Yes. He wasn't the best rapper but on Diamond and Pearls he brought something to the music that Prince was missing. It help bring a lot of people back and help bring the black community back. There was a lot of cats in my hood bumpin' Diamond and Pears where a two years before were like "what's up with that ni__a ....you like him?" Plus, it was nice to see Prince dancing and the Arsensio Hall show in '91 was one of his highest rated and most requested (for a repeat) episodes. Great episode, but the '92 episode was weak....long hair....too much Tony M....tried to hard to go Hip Hop. Diamond and Pearls was just enough.

Graffitt Bridge was sooooo EMBRASSING!!!!

The thing about the name change I hated was all the lies....it was the other person in me....my spirit told me to do it...bluh bluh

The whold LoveSexy look (album cover, briefs and garter belts...my goodness).

Adore is still under played....been to maybe 6 shows and never heard it (at least a full version). SMH

Hey Prime, I actually didn't mind Tony M. either. Not sure why he gets so much hate. I think it was Prince infusing rap music... not so much Tony M. himself. Even Jughead. People hate on that song so much, but I thought it was pretty funky and dug it. It would never make my personal list of P favorites, but it was a cool tune. But those dance steps weren't exactly filled with testosterone. Especially not Prince's role in the performance. Estrogen? Perhaps.

There was one poster I actually bought back in the Lovesexy era. Prince was wearing red and blue, and COVERED in make-up, wearing a black hat with the androgynous symbol or whatever. Why my parents let me keep that on my bedroom wall, I have NO idea. That was just bad parenting. Who knew he'd go on to have even WORSE looks. :/

I've heard adore in concert in full once. Trust me when I say it was a thing of beauty. Maybe 2005 during a 3-night stand in Philadelphia. Simply awesome.

SPYZFAN1 said:

I'd like to add something..(and I apologize if it's already been mentioned).....

The "Under The Cherry Moon" MTV premiere party. I remember watching that on TV and I couldn't believe it. From what I've read he originally planned to cancel it at the last minute...

..and I wouldn't have blamed him either.

By that time he had lost a lot of his mystique. I think the "Christopher Tracy" character vs "The Kid" was night and day. When I saw P laughing and joking and acting a fool (in the movie and the MTV party) I couldn't believe it was him. Definetly a low moment.

But I will say the partial live jam at the end of the show was slammin'.

That was a weird time for Prince.UTCM was such a risky project and I think his managers (and/or Warners) convinced him to "break out of his shell" and start doing the type of aggressive promotion that he didn't feel comfortable with.I mean,come on.....an MTV contest to win tickets to the movie premiere?! In Sheridan,Wyoming?! That was absurd Like you said,he lost alot of his mystique when he was promoting that film.

I remember in early 1985,coming home from school and turning on the radio.The DJ said "We have the new Prince album 'Around The World In A Day' and in a moment,I'll be playing tracks from it".I was like "wtf?" It was only a few weeks ago that the Purple Rain tour ended! I couldn't believe that he was rushing out a new record so soon.

prime said:

Following up Purple Rain with ATWIAD way too soon

skipp3Rn3ls0n said:

The Gangsta Glam music video

Is there really anything else to say about it?

HAHAHAHAHAH!!! So bad its Insanely fantastic!

SPYZFAN1 said:

I'd like to add something..(and I apologize if it's already been mentioned).....

The "Under The Cherry Moon" MTV premiere party. I remember watching that on TV and I couldn't believe it. From what I've read he originally planned to cancel it at the last minute...

..and I wouldn't have blamed him either.

By that time he had lost a lot of his mystique. I think the "Christopher Tracy" character vs "The Kid" was night and day. When I saw P laughing and joking and acting a fool (in the movie and the MTV party) I couldn't believe it was him. Definetly a low moment.

But I will say the partial live jam at the end of the show was slammin'.

It should have been in Minneapolis.

The premier with 1000's of Prince fans dressed like they come from Uptown

I didn't like the Morris Da & Jerome imitation from Purple Rain done in UTCM

no need 2 repeat some key points already mentioned so i'll stick with this:

1. playing vegas in 1997, prince had up 2 that point stayed away from vegas and ever since then it's been a vegas style type of shows from him

2. having a 36 track filled album and then going out on tour and hardly playing any of those songs live thus beginning the trend we are in were it's a new album and only a few tracks being promoted

3. PROMOTION PROMOTION PROMOTION i can't stress this one enough. even before the name change, it seems prince has had this conception that it's all up 2 the record company 2 do the only marketing of a product. WRONG! the artist has 2 do their share as well.

4. having ballads being the lead single of a new album

5. not being a very sound business man when it came 2 running a record company

6. allowing his albums 2 go out of print for a new generation of fans

7. not developing more band oriented protogees

I guess a knee jerk response is to say the We Are The World debacle but in hindsight it's not so bad. Prince was ripe for a backlash at that point and all artists go through them anyway so why not at this point. Really blown way out of proportion and then the bodyguard situation on the same evening made everything worse. But, I'd say maybe, on a personal basis, the Emancipation period when he had to go through with what had to be painful public promotion after his child had died. No artist or person has a trouble free life, Prince has had some bad times, probably some that we don't have any knowledge of but I'd say getting booed offstage as the Stones' opener, the whole trauma of the Warner Bros debacle, a lot to choose from.

Oh, what a nice little jaunt down memory lane this thread has become!

This man has had so many career fiascos! - the mankini, cringeworthy interviews, exposed buttocks, and so much more! I really enjoyed reading the posts from MantuaPharoah, SDNafka, Prime, they were

Yes, it can be EMBARRASSING to be a Prince fan... which is why we're huddled here together on this support group called the org.

prime said:

I disagree with #2. I'm not sure why so many folks hate on Tony M. Yes. He wasn't the best rapper but on Diamond and Pearls he brought something to the music that Prince was missing. It help bring a lot of people back and help bring the black community back. There was a lot of cats in my hood bumpin' Diamond and Pears where a two years before were like "what's up with that ni__a ....you like him?" Plus, it was nice to see Prince dancing and the Arsensio Hall show in '91 was one of his highest rated and most requested (for a repeat) episodes. Great episode, but the '92 episode was weak....long hair....too much Tony M....tried to hard to go Hip Hop. Diamond and Pearls was just enough.

At the Arsenio Hall show during Daddy Pop one of the Gameboyz literally humped Princes ass. I don't care if it's Jimi Hendrix doing the humping, that is still embarresing, and I hope none of my friends ever find that video. The fact Tony M was doing the humping made it worse. They also do a Human Centipede thing, which looked cool at the time but disturbing after that psychotic horror film

In fact, the whole theme with the Gameboyz was kind of homoerotic, them dancing circles around P in Kiss, the orgy at the start of Gett Off.

Jagar said:

prime said:

I disagree with #2. I'm not sure why so many folks hate on Tony M. Yes. He wasn't the best rapper but on Diamond and Pearls he brought something to the music that Prince was missing. It help bring a lot of people back and help bring the black community back. There was a lot of cats in my hood bumpin' Diamond and Pears where a two years before were like "what's up with that ni__a ....you like him?" Plus, it was nice to see Prince dancing and the Arsensio Hall show in '91 was one of his highest rated and most requested (for a repeat) episodes. Great episode, but the '92 episode was weak....long hair....too much Tony M....tried to hard to go Hip Hop. Diamond and Pearls was just enough.

At the Arsenio Hall show during Daddy Pop one of the Gameboyz literally humped Princes ass. I don't care if it's Jimi Hendrix doing the humping, that is still embarresing, and I hope none of my friends ever find that video. The fact Tony M was doing the humping made it worse. They also do a Human Centipede thing, which looked cool at the time but disturbing after that psychotic horror film

In fact, the whole theme with the Gameboyz was kind of homoerotic, them dancing circles around P in Kiss, the orgy at the start of Gett Off.

TrevorAyer said:

aahhh but what if sott had been a single record .. wb was always complainin about the overabundance of material, maybe they were right

sign

play in the sunshine

housequake

dorothy parker

the cross

u got the look

if eye was your girlfriend

strange relationship

i could never take the place of your man

adore

maybe without the filler tunes this record would have gotten more of a reception and cemented prince legacy

Here's my tracklist idea,if SOTT had to be trimmed down to a single record....

Side 1---

I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man

I just noticed that I kept Side 3 intact that side is perfect.

worst moment was spread out over a few years when he bacame vulnerable again, he found his way with Lovesexy and cemented his beliefs and it all tied together the past and the future, he had hit his lowest of lows with the black album and found the highest of highs with Lovesexy (1988), but as with anything as soon as you open yourself up like that become nude (90) and then continue to celebrate this new life through to 1992 ish you become open to those wanting to destroy it. And slowly but surely over the next few years they did, he was pliable an flexible and started to lose his way - Tony M as a great example and then in swoops L Graham and he is lost to us forever.

Soul you're probably right. Maybe WB wanted him to break out of his shell and try the MTV contest. Maybe they knew back then the movie was going to be a flop and they had to promote it one way or the other. (lol)

Old Friends I agree..it should have been in Minneapolis. That would have been wild and I think he would have been more comfortable.

The "humping" on the Arsenio Hall show? Yeah that was a little low. I remember my heavy metal friends letting out a loud "Oh my God" groan when they did that.

jpnyc said:

The moment he joined the JW cult is definitely the worst moment.

Runner Ups:

• When he hired the stylist responsible for the outfits and hairdoes of the Rave era.

• Every single album cover art approval decision except for the black album.

• Putting Jughead on Diamonds and Pearls.

• Deciding that The Gold Experience really needed another five or six tracks of sounds layered on top to make it sound right.

• Pissing of Rosie Gaines.

Regarding your last Runner Ups...

What did he do to piss off Rosie Gaines?

controversy99 said:

1 = joining the JW cult 2 = staying in the JW cult My wife was a JW as a child, and she still has family members in it. That religon is toxic. Prince is unable to honestly reconcile his past and his present because he's in this cult. I think this as much as anything stunts him as an artist. Hopefully he'll leave it soon.

And my wife STILL IS.....

Everytime this subject comes up I TRY to avoid putting my 2 cents in as you folks are just as stubborn and stuck in your narrow minded beliefs as you think Prince is...and you don't even realize it.

But this CULT talk is straight up BULLSHIT and you guys need to be called out on it.

Funny...I've seen people mention that they want Prince to go back to being a Christian--you know... the guy who had spiritual lyrics in between fuck songs, humping the floor, shagging his numerous proteges, swearing, dirty dealing band members and associates...etc.

So, a religion that has rules and actually enforces them is a "cult"..."toxic".

Whereas a religion where you can basically say and do whatever you want, as long as you repent about is afterwards, is the socially acceptable norm??

Makes no real sense to me, which is partly why I don't follow any religion at all.

But, I don't disagree that he is limited to what he can do and say... But that shouldn't affect a good beat or a good song. Cleaner lyrics and one's beliefs should not and probably does not affect anyone's composition skills or creativity.

As far as the subject of the thread. For me, it's definately a toss up between the We Are The World situation and the WB fight and how it was handled. Those were REAL career affecting moments for reasons already outlined in this thread.