darshan said:

Madonna is the new Lady Gaga i.e. maximum commercial success from minimum talent.

LadyGaga is very talented.

1725topp said:

errant said:

As far as I can tell, no one but Madonna has gotten this much shit for it since Prince. Unless no one carrs about Bon Jovi, Tom Petty or the other 8,000 acts that have done it.

Thanks for the response, and you raise a couple of good points. One, I did not know that several others had used the strategy since Prince. I know you are being humorous with the number 8,000, but the point taken is that several have done this since Prince, and none of them have been as negatively criticized as Madonna. Your other point seems to be that Madonna is as much a lightning rod for people's opinions as Prince is? If so, I never realized this. I'll admit that I'm not the biggest Madonna fan, thinking that she is talented but overrated, but I don't spend time discussing or dissing people that don't interest me so I haven't followed her career as much. So, is Madonna criticized as much in the media and music industry as she seems to be on this site? If so, are people discussing this issue of her selling CDs with her tickets simply because certain people in the media and music industry dislike her or think that she's overrated, or do they really think that selling CDs this way is dishonest?

1725topp said:

1725topp said:

errant said:

As far as I can tell, no one but Madonna has gotten this much shit for it since Prince. Unless no one carrs about Bon Jovi, Tom Petty or the other 8,000 acts that have done it.

Thanks for the response, and you raise a couple of good points. One, I did not know that several others had used the strategy since Prince. I know you are being humorous with the number 8,000, but the point taken is that several have done this since Prince, and none of them have been as negatively criticized as Madonna. Your other point seems to be that Madonna is as much a lightning rod for people's opinions as Prince is? If so, I never realized this. I'll admit that I'm not the biggest Madonna fan, thinking that she is talented but overrated, but I don't spend time discussing or dissing people that don't interest me so I haven't followed her career as much. So, is Madonna criticized as much in the media and music industry as she seems to be on this site? If so, are people discussing this issue of her selling CDs with her tickets simply because certain people in the media and music industry dislike her or think that she's overrated, or do they really think that selling CDs this way is dishonest?

don't feel Prince has been criticized 4 it. To me he was seen as a innovator & trendsetter 4 it. That year 2004 was a historical year 4 Prince. It all fell in2 place 4 him that year. Album.tour, RRHOF inductee & the 20th anniversary of Purple Rain.Topping it off the next year with two more Grammy's.

Madonna on the other hand as much as feel she is a master @ promotion. This time it doesn't feel like an achievement to me. She blatantly copied Prince 4rm Superbowl lipsynching(His live) per4mance 2 album inclusion with every concert ticket.. give her credit 4 her age still pulling it off. Also the media seems 2 b ignoring Prince's album inclusion with each ticket. Like he never did it. They mention Tom Petty etc. But they omit his name.

[Edited 4/8/12 18:22pm]

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

don't feel Prince has been criticized 4 it. To me he was seen as a innovator & trendsetter 4 it. That year 2004 was a historical year 4 Prince. It all feel in2 place 4 him that year. Album.tour, RRHOF inductee & the 20th anniversary of Purple Rain.Topping it off the next year with two more Grammy's.

Madonna on the other hand as much as feel she is a master @ promotion. This time it doesn't feel like an achievement to me. She blatantly copied Prince 4rm Superbowl lipsynching(His live) per4mance 2 album inclusion with every concert ticket.. give her credit 4 her age still pulling it off. Also the media seems 2 b ignoring Prince's album inclution with each ticket. Like he never did it. They mention Tom Petty etc. But they omit his name.

You raise a couple of good points, but I do remember Billboard as well as a few industry people criticizing Prince for padding his sells with this "gimmick" and a couple of articles that essentially discounted his being valid on the charts. So, yes, Prince did get a lot of praise that year, but there was definitely criticism regarding selling CDs with the concert ticket.

*

And, of course, his being criticized for selling CDs with the concert ticket makes we wonder why his name is not being mentioned in these new articles. It's like they have selective memory, and I wonder what is the cause of or what is driving the selective memory.

errant said:

Madonna has taken a beating from critics, politicians, other artists, and people with psycological issues for 30 years now (happy anniversary!). It's nothing new. It's part of the fabric of her career.

Well, if that's the case, I may not like her art, but I can respect her for continuing to do her thing.

Madonna and Prince are long-term survivors in a business that chews people up and spits them out. I admire both of them for navigating the treacherous waters of the music business and still ending up afloat (whatever you may think of them). My personal opinion of Prince, in regard to Madonna, is that he initally wanted to set up his own successful diva factory orchestrated by him (of course!) to mirror the long careers of female artists like Madonna and Sade (he even dared to compare Bria to Sade on a Tavis interview before hastily retracting it LOL). But, he wanted to paint his idealistic female diva's career with his own master stroke in order to possess and control it--the career of his female alter-ego or his Pygmalion touch to an Aphrodite statue, as the Greek myth goes. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Wildboy said:

I think that peoples hatred for Madonna stems from the fact that she is not that accomplished of a musician, and it's tough to put your finger on exactly what attributes make her a success year after year. She doesn't really write her own material, she doesn't play her own material, she doesn't have a phenomenal voice, she doesn't put that much soul into her art. So why exactly has she been such a big success for 30 years.

Shrewd business woman. Lots of people don't feel that she's really an artist. They feel sort of like she's a Justin Beiber that never went away.

Not that I all the way agree with these people, I just think that that is a lot of people's feelings.

No, in the 1980's it was clear why she was a draw,

to say she put 'not that much soul' into her art, is seriously wrong. The fact that she actually sees the projects thru from beginning to end, means she is all over it. She seeks out the best, from photographers and directors, she's a work a holic. Even Prince worked with and wanted her in his film GB.

I think one of the big things is she is still real about herself.

A lot of people don't 'really write their own music' She does co-write most of her music.

Prince is my man, but his ego says he can do it all by himself, her confidence says I can't do it all by myself. I remember seeing her on SNL when she first started learning guitar and she was really vulnerable about it and told the audience don't laugh at her.

I don't know how she can't be considered an artist, she is definately a great entertainer.

She is very much in touch with culture and popular culture which makes her 'touchable' and she's been able to express what's happening thru her music and the video imagery she puts out thru videos and concerts. The 1990's especially early - mid 90's she interpreted and brought out a lot of sexual issues happening and hidden, stuff people were hypocritical about, and the early 1990's was totally going thru a social sexual change. Prince wasn't able to do it, maybe the PRince of 1981-1986 would have but not the Prince of 1990's he got swollowed by what was happening that climate

But a lot of the hate comes from her being a woman that dominates and men get angry at that.

Very well put, by both, one adding to the other's comment.
I also believe it has a lot to do with the fact that she's a dominant woman (machismo). Prove of that is that so many (stupid) people to criticise her use terms like whore, bitch and things referring to sexual permissiveness. And, more recently to her age. (Stupid) People are now saying she should retire, because she's old, because she can no longer be super pretty. Like beauty was what really mattered in a singer. This age thing is another way to put down an assertive woman who expressed her sexuality (specifically what she "shouldn't" do) in a vigorous way and won't take it back. Pretty much 99% of the criticism on Madonna is in such topics.

The success and market factor is a subject that does not necessarily relate to talent, and this is very clear, at least to me. So this subject is not really important. I believe that the other argument, the case of a "lack of talent", is pretty controversial.

A voice. Yes, there are singers who are vocal virtuosos, or great interpreters. But can anyone misjudge Lou Reed or Bob Dylan because of their very limited voices? Yes, some great artists have limited voices. Madonna also has a limited voice.

Her lyrics are clearly far from those of Dylan and Reed, but she could bring controversial topics and debate social hipocrisies in many times of her carreer (although, in many other times, she had pretty much nothing to say). As for the melody, she's been co-composer of pretty much all her songs, with some notable exceptions, as for Like a Virgin. As a co-writer and co-producer she has worked with many talented artist (many of whom she researched/discovered), many times to great and diverse results.

For example, Ray of Light and Music are wonderfully produced albums and landmarks in pop/electronic music, with their blend of techno/classical strings, French house/folk, respectively, as was the case of the production and musical consistency of her pop/house defining phase of the early 90's, from Vogue to Erotica. She has worked with a different main collaborator from almost one album to the next one. If she had'nt a solid role in the writing of these dozens of songs how come so many of them sound like hers and relate so much to other times of her carreer and other songs of hers? Think this last album: the flert with 60's pop in many of the songs reminded the time she did something similar on the Like a Prayer album. Just to stick to one example. Or think how come this last album's "Beautiful Killer" recall so much "Papa Don't Preach"? And there are many cases. As for her body of work, think of songs like Ray of Light, Music, Vogue, Deeper and Deeper, Like a Prayer, Like a Virgin, Erotica, Holiday? Aren't these clearly, to say the least, great pop songs? To say the very least. I don't think these will stop playing any generations soon.

To be short: musically, which is what really matters (not Billboard, not the Grammys, not fancy stage things), I believe yes, she has some value. Many artists, or even most artists are not equally great in all the facets of their music. She may not have an outstanding voice, nor play an instrument seriously, but judging by all these songs of hers, written in very different times along with different co-workers, she is at least a very notable pop songwriter.

[Edited 4/18/12 23:46pm]

SoulAlive said:

I don't get it.Tom Petty and Bon Jovi have both used this promotional strategy with their recent albums and no one said anything,but when Madonna does it,people make a big deal and say she's "stealing" from Prince

Probably because no-one cares about what Bon Jovi or Tom Petty do except for fans, (same with Prince).

BlackAdder7 said:

by bundling her new album together with each concert ticket purchased, Madonna has assured herself of the number one album, surpassing lionel ritchie's new CD.

Articles have pointed to Tom Petty having done the same thing, but...

Didn't our Prince start the idea...and....didn't billboard/soundscan say they wouldn't count those types of sales anymore, because of Prince's brilliant marketing idea?

I believe the cd with concert ticket purchase counts as a sale toward billboard and soundscan. The deal is they have to offer a ticket for the concert with (At a higher price) cd and (with a lower price) one without the cd included.

purplethunder3121 said:

Madonna and Prince are long-term survivors in a business that chews people up and spits them out. I admire both of them for navigating the treacherous waters of the music business and still ending up afloat (whatever you may think of them). My personal opinion of Prince, in regard to Madonna, is that he initally wanted to set up his own successful diva factory orchestrated by him (of course!) to mirror the long careers of female artists like Madonna and Sade (he even dared to compare Bria to Sade on a Tavis interview before hastily retracting it LOL). But, he wanted to paint his idealistic female diva's career with his own master stroke in order to possess and control it--the career of his female alter-ego or his Pygmalion touch to an Aphrodite statue, as the Greek myth goes. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?

With good management Prince could have had some good female proteges that would have been respected from Vanity Sheila E. Susannah of the Family & Jill Jones

the scene was right for it, his Uptown/Erotic City/Paisley Park utopia was perfect to solidify them, and they did have the creativity image and vibe to do it.