Genesia said:

databank said:

Maybe I'm silly but what I always understood here is... "Holocaust aside, many live & died"

I mean that I get what it says: save for the holocaust (i.e. genocides and massive war crimes in general, that should be condemned), death is a part of life and shouldn't be feared, therefore one should stand by one's beliefs even if one's life is threatened by doing so ("would u rather be dead or be sold?"). I don't see anything against Jews here.

As for mysoginy it's been there all along (Dirty Mind anyone? 1999 anyone? What about the original version of Extra Loveable and Big Tall Wall? Let's not even mention Work That Fat and the lyrics for The Time ^^) but it's always been tempered by P's feminist lyrics, which I always understood as an expression of the fragile balance between his macho afro-american side (education and religion - christianism IS traditionally mysogynist as a whole) and his feminine side. In my book, the feminist aspects always were stronger despite some disputable lyrics.

Please don't misunderstand: i'm not trying to recreate a debate u guys obviously have had before, nor do I wish to convince or be convinced. Just saying my (maybe naive) POV

Peace

[Edited 3/7/12 11:41am]

[Edited 3/7/12 11:42am]

And I interpret it to mean, "What are the Jews bitching about? Slavery killed a lot of people, too." It's the diminishing of one to elevate the other that is the problem. And "would u rather b dead or sold" is just more moral relativism. He's suggesting that it's worse to be alive and held in slavery than to die in a concentration camp.

There is also the issue of the names that are used - Pearlman, Rosenbloom, Goldstruck - all of which are Jewish-sounding names. And the lyrics around them diminish the persecution of Jews by (in effect) saying, "What are you people bitching about? You still have your names - unlike the slaves, who lost theirs." This is just ignorant, since many Jews did lose their family names - either because they changed them, themselves (to avoid persecution) or had them forcibly changed (through "mistakes" at Ellis Island).

[Edited 3/7/12 12:01pm]

I fully agree

databank said:

Efan said:

You really think no one would have a problem with lyrics like "Holocaust aside..." and the part about women living in subjugation to men? I don't know which copy of Lovesexy you bought, but those concepts weren't in mine.

The aforementioned Family Name is of course another one that inspires a lot of debate for its alleged anti-Semitism.

Personally, I'm always surprised that Prince's ardent Christian fans aren't more upset about one of the major themes running through that album: that there isn't a Trinity. But since I'm not an ardent Christian, I guess it's not my place to say they should be bothered by it.

Anyway, I agree it's a great album, and the first album of his ever that I had to fully disassociate the music from the lyrics--which is one reason I take exception to the Lovesexy comparison. TRC is not a continuation at all--it is a brand-new direction.

Maybe I'm silly but what I always understood here is... "Holocaust aside, many live & died"

I mean that I get what it says: save for the holocaust (i.e. genocides and massive war crimes in general, that should be condemned), death is a part of life and shouldn't be feared, therefore one should stand by one's beliefs even if one's life is threatened by doing so ("would u rather be dead or be sold?"). I don't see anything against Jews here.

As for mysoginy it's been there all along (Dirty Mind anyone? 1999 anyone? What about the original version of Extra Loveable and Big Tall Wall? Let's not even mention Work That Fat and the lyrics for The Time ^^) but it's always been tempered by P's feminist lyrics, which I always understood as an expression of the fragile balance between his macho afro-american side (education and religion - christianism IS traditionally mysogynist as a whole) and his feminine side. In my book, the feminist aspects always were stronger despite some disputable lyrics.

Please don't misunderstand: i'm not trying to recreate a debate u guys obviously have had before, nor do I wish to convince or be convinced. Just saying my (maybe naive) POV

Peace

Good points, great thread ... No debate here

NouveauDance said:

I think the general thing that rubbed people up the wrong way - overall - was the perceived bait/switch some people felt - it's from 'your clothes, your hair we don't care it's all about being free' and 'If I see 11, you can say it's 7, still I wish you heaven' to 'this is how it's gonna be, ain't no room to disagree'. I am not arguing for that perceived sudden change in moral stance, but many people saw it that way.

[Edited 3/7/12 13:09pm]

The Rainbow Children is musically in his top 3 and lyrically it's his worst. A very frustrating CD.

What you said above, even though you temper it at the end, is a lot of what turns me off. Even if Prince has always been controlling & close-minded (which I don't think he wax), his lyrics earlier in his career were very open. So the music & lyrics were open minded, regardless of his personal life.

Genesia said:

databank said:

Maybe I'm silly but what I always understood here is... "Holocaust aside, many live & died"

I mean that I get what it says: save for the holocaust (i.e. genocides and massive war crimes in general, that should be condemned), death is a part of life and shouldn't be feared, therefore one should stand by one's beliefs even if one's life is threatened by doing so ("would u rather be dead or be sold?"). I don't see anything against Jews here.

As for mysoginy it's been there all along (Dirty Mind anyone? 1999 anyone? What about the original version of Extra Loveable and Big Tall Wall? Let's not even mention Work That Fat and the lyrics for The Time ^^) but it's always been tempered by P's feminist lyrics, which I always understood as an expression of the fragile balance between his macho afro-american side (education and religion - christianism IS traditionally mysogynist as a whole) and his feminine side. In my book, the feminist aspects always were stronger despite some disputable lyrics.

Please don't misunderstand: i'm not trying to recreate a debate u guys obviously have had before, nor do I wish to convince or be convinced. Just saying my (maybe naive) POV

Peace

[Edited 3/7/12 11:41am]

[Edited 3/7/12 11:42am]

And I interpret it to mean, "What are the Jews bitching about? Slavery killed a lot of people, too." It's the diminishing of one to elevate the other that is the problem. And "would u rather b dead or sold" is just more moral relativism. He's suggesting that it's worse to be alive and held in slavery than to die in a concentration camp.

There is also the issue of the names that are used - Pearlman, Rosenbloom, Goldstruck - all of which are Jewish-sounding names. And the lyrics around them diminish the persecution of Jews by (in effect) saying, "What are you people bitching about? You still have your names - unlike the slaves, who lost theirs." This is just ignorant, since many Jews did lose their family names - either because they changed them, themselves (to avoid persecution) or had them forcibly changed (through "mistakes" at Ellis Island).

[Edited 3/7/12 12:01pm]

I think that there is a point to be made that as horrible as the holocaust was Jews were not stripped of their identity. The african on the other hand had everything but their lives stripped from them. On a cultural level that is the worst thing that can happen to a people. Hitler tried to wipe out Jews/Jewish culture but although many lives were lost and many suffered he was unsuccessful.

Prince is asking the question of what is life worth if one doesn't have freedom. Is it better to be owned or to be dead? After all we will all die, but some have known the horror of being property and thought as animals to treated at the whims of a master.

Besides its quite evident that when Prince poses the question about death versus slavery he puts the Houlocaust outside of the argument.

Beyond that what other song on the album is really that controversial besides "family name"? People want to dismiss the entire album when lyrically there is only one song that is questionable. People need to have some perspective.

NouveauDance said:

I think the general thing that rubbed people up the wrong way - overall - was the perceived bait/switch some people felt - it's from 'your clothes, your hair we don't care it's all about being free' and 'If I see 11, you can say it's 7, still I wish you heaven' to 'this is how it's gonna be, ain't no room to disagree'. I am not arguing for that perceived sudden change in moral stance, but many people saw it that way.

[Edited 3/7/12 13:09pm]

It's only a "bait and switch" if you think of those points of view as sitting right next to each other as u can sit the CDs right next to each other. In actuality those sentiments are seperated by years of life experinces and countless hours of contemplation.

Prince changed over time. Anyone with a brain does.

tricky99 said:

In actuality those sentiments are seperated by years of life experinces and countless hours of contemplation.

TBH, I thought that was a given. Didn't think I'd need to qualify a post by stating Dirty Mind and Lovesexy were not released in 2000.

Maybe The Rainbow Children is actually a long extended sequel to "Bob George." Having vanquished the police with his laser weapon, the narrator of "Bob George" obtains absolute power and imposes a new order based on the principle that he makes the rules. Ain't that a bitch?

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

And I interpret it to mean, "What are the Jews bitching about? Slavery killed a lot of people, too." It's the diminishing of one to elevate the other that is the problem. And "would u rather b dead or sold" is just more moral relativism. He's suggesting that it's worse to be alive and held in slavery than to die in a concentration camp.

There is also the issue of the names that are used - Pearlman, Rosenbloom, Goldstruck - all of which are Jewish-sounding names. And the lyrics around them diminish the persecution of Jews by (in effect) saying, "What are you people bitching about? You still have your names - unlike the slaves, who lost theirs." This is just ignorant, since many Jews did lose their family names - either because they changed them, themselves (to avoid persecution) or had them forcibly changed (through "mistakes" at Ellis Island).

[Edited 3/7/12 12:01pm]

I think that there is a point to be made that as horrible as the holocaust was Jews were not stripped of their identity. The african on the other hand had everything but their lives stripped from them. On a cultural level that is the worst thing that can happen to a people. Hitler tried to wipe out Jews/Jewish culture but although many lives were lost and many suffered he was unsuccessful.

Prince is asking the question of what is life worth if one doesn't have freedom. Is it better to be owned or to be dead? After all we will all die, but some have known the horror of being property and thought as animals to treated at the whims of a master.

Besides its quite evident that when Prince poses the question about death versus slavery he puts the Houlocaust outside of the argument.

Beyond that what other song on the album is really that controversial besides "family name"? People want to dismiss the entire album when lyrically there is only one song that is questionable. People need to have some perspective.

Both Jews and slaves were not treated as human beings and IMO it is very wrong to even make stupid comparisms as who had it worse. It's never ever okay to belittle the feelings of victims by telling others may suffer even more. I don't get it at all how anybody cannot feel very sorry for both groups, the victims of Holocaust and slavery, but can even come up with the idea to think about who was suffering more. That is just morally wrong IMO.

tricky99 said:

NouveauDance said:

I think the general thing that rubbed people up the wrong way - overall - was the perceived bait/switch some people felt - it's from 'your clothes, your hair we don't care it's all about being free' and 'If I see 11, you can say it's 7, still I wish you heaven' to 'this is how it's gonna be, ain't no room to disagree'. I am not arguing for that perceived sudden change in moral stance, but many people saw it that way.

[Edited 3/7/12 13:09pm]

It's only a "bait and switch" if you think of those points of view as sitting right next to each other as u can sit the CDs right next to each other. In actuality those sentiments are seperated by years of life experinces and countless hours of contemplation.

Prince changed over time. Anyone with a brain does.

Yeah but a change sadly isn't always a change for the better....

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

And I interpret it to mean, "What are the Jews bitching about? Slavery killed a lot of people, too." It's the diminishing of one to elevate the other that is the problem. And "would u rather b dead or sold" is just more moral relativism. He's suggesting that it's worse to be alive and held in slavery than to die in a concentration camp.

There is also the issue of the names that are used - Pearlman, Rosenbloom, Goldstruck - all of which are Jewish-sounding names. And the lyrics around them diminish the persecution of Jews by (in effect) saying, "What are you people bitching about? You still have your names - unlike the slaves, who lost theirs." This is just ignorant, since many Jews did lose their family names - either because they changed them, themselves (to avoid persecution) or had them forcibly changed (through "mistakes" at Ellis Island).

[Edited 3/7/12 12:01pm]

I think that there is a point to be made that as horrible as the holocaust was Jews were not stripped of their identity. The african on the other hand had everything but their lives stripped from them. On a cultural level that is the worst thing that can happen to a people. Hitler tried to wipe out Jews/Jewish culture but although many lives were lost and many suffered he was unsuccessful.

Prince is asking the question of what is life worth if one doesn't have freedom. Is it better to be owned or to be dead? After all we will all die, but some have known the horror of being property and thought as animals to treated at the whims of a master.

Besides its quite evident that when Prince poses the question about death versus slavery he puts the Houlocaust outside of the argument.

Beyond that what other song on the album is really that controversial besides "family name"? People want to dismiss the entire album when lyrically there is only one song that is questionable. People need to have some perspective.

More relativism.

How can the genocide that Hitler committed against the Jews ever be considered "beside the point?" His victims weren't just killed. Most of them were tortured first - by starvation, medical experimentation, or being gassed. It wasn't (as I suppose you would argue) an "easy death."

You don't think forcing people to wear a yellow star identifying them as Jews strips them of their identity? You don't think forcing people to change their names or try to "pass" as non-Jews (with the threat of violence hanging over them if they are unsuccessful) or forcing them to hide (sometimes for years) robs them of their identity? You don't think separating children from their parents robs said children of their identity?

And Hitler wasn't the only one who targeted them - Stalin did, too. As did Lenin... and Torquemada ... and any number of others throughout history.

How would black people feel if the shoe were on the other foot and someone said, "Slavery aside, blacks have had it pretty damn easy"? Why is one thing discounted, but not the other?

To do so is just plain ignorance - and deeply offensive. Hell, I'm not even Jewish and I'd like to kick him in the nuts for this song.

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

I think that there is a point to be made that as horrible as the holocaust was Jews were not stripped of their identity. The african on the other hand had everything but their lives stripped from them. On a cultural level that is the worst thing that can happen to a people. Hitler tried to wipe out Jews/Jewish culture but although many lives were lost and many suffered he was unsuccessful.

Prince is asking the question of what is life worth if one doesn't have freedom. Is it better to be owned or to be dead? After all we will all die, but some have known the horror of being property and thought as animals to treated at the whims of a master.

Besides its quite evident that when Prince poses the question about death versus slavery he puts the Houlocaust outside of the argument.

Beyond that what other song on the album is really that controversial besides "family name"? People want to dismiss the entire album when lyrically there is only one song that is questionable. People need to have some perspective.

More relativism.

How can the genocide that Hitler committed against the Jews ever be considered "beside the point?" His victims weren't just killed. Most of them were tortured first - by starvation, medical experimentation, or being gassed. It wasn't (as I suppose you would argue) an "easy death."

You don't think forcing people to wear a yellow star identifying them as Jews strips them of their identity? You don't think forcing people to change their names or try to "pass" as non-Jews (with the threat of violence hanging over them if they are unsuccessful) or forcing them to hide (sometimes for years) robs them of their identity? You don't think separating children from their parents robs said children of their identity?

And Hitler wasn't the only one who targeted them - Stalin did, too. As did Lenin... and Torquemada ... and any number of others throughout history.

How would black people feel if the shoe were on the other foot and someone said, "Slavery aside, blacks have had it pretty damn easy"? Why is one thing discounted, but not the other?

To do so is just plain ignorance - and deeply offensive. Hell, I'm not even Jewish and I'd like to kick him in the nuts for this song.

I am not jewish either, but as an Austrian living in my country where many still defend what went on in the Nazi-times I find it hightly offensive too. And don't get me wrong, I very much feel with the victims of slavery too, my boyfriend is black, so there is a personal level for me about that too.

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

I think that there is a point to be made that as horrible as the holocaust was Jews were not stripped of their identity. The african on the other hand had everything but their lives stripped from them. On a cultural level that is the worst thing that can happen to a people. Hitler tried to wipe out Jews/Jewish culture but although many lives were lost and many suffered he was unsuccessful.

Prince is asking the question of what is life worth if one doesn't have freedom. Is it better to be owned or to be dead? After all we will all die, but some have known the horror of being property and thought as animals to treated at the whims of a master.

Besides its quite evident that when Prince poses the question about death versus slavery he puts the Houlocaust outside of the argument.

Beyond that what other song on the album is really that controversial besides "family name"? People want to dismiss the entire album when lyrically there is only one song that is questionable. People need to have some perspective.

More relativism.

How can the genocide that Hitler committed against the Jews ever be considered "beside the point?" His victims weren't just killed. Most of them were tortured first - by starvation, medical experimentation, or being gassed. It wasn't (as I suppose you would argue) an "easy death."

You don't think forcing people to wear a yellow star identifying them as Jews strips them of their identity? You don't think forcing people to change their names or try to "pass" as non-Jews (with the threat of violence hanging over them if they are unsuccessful) or forcing them to hide (sometimes for years) robs them of their identity? You don't think separating children from their parents robs said children of their identity?

And Hitler wasn't the only one who targeted them - Stalin did, too. As did Lenin... and Torquemada ... and any number of others throughout history.

How would black people feel if the shoe were on the other foot and someone said, "Slavery Haside, blacks have had it pretty damn easy"? Why is one thing discounted, but not the other?

To do so is just plain ignorance - and deeply offensive. Hell, I'm not even Jewish and I'd like to kick him in the nuts for this song.

But here's the problem all that you said about the Houlocaust is true but I wonder why your emphasis is on this particular horror. Prince's very point is that the horror of slavery has been given very short shift in our history. The Houlocaust was a few years of absolute terror, the slave trade went on 100's of years. Why aren't you passionately discussing the horrors of the slave trade?

Why is nobody else suffering worth exploring and commenting on? The Jews suffered terriblely (along with others) but that doesn't mean that particular event should override all the other tragedies that have occured in history.

I find it interesting that so many people jump to be offended by this song without giving any thought to the overriding message of the song. In other words the victims Prince wishes to focus on in the song are not even considered by those you wish to only focus on the supposed afront to the Houlocaust.

It sort of like when two women go missing. One black the other a blond white girl. Guess who gets all the news coverage?

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

More relativism.

How can the genocide that Hitler committed against the Jews ever be considered "beside the point?" His victims weren't just killed. Most of them were tortured first - by starvation, medical experimentation, or being gassed. It wasn't (as I suppose you would argue) an "easy death."

You don't think forcing people to wear a yellow star identifying them as Jews strips them of their identity? You don't think forcing people to change their names or try to "pass" as non-Jews (with the threat of violence hanging over them if they are unsuccessful) or forcing them to hide (sometimes for years) robs them of their identity? You don't think separating children from their parents robs said children of their identity?

And Hitler wasn't the only one who targeted them - Stalin did, too. As did Lenin... and Torquemada ... and any number of others throughout history.

How would black people feel if the shoe were on the other foot and someone said, "Slavery Haside, blacks have had it pretty damn easy"? Why is one thing discounted, but not the other?

To do so is just plain ignorance - and deeply offensive. Hell, I'm not even Jewish and I'd like to kick him in the nuts for this song.

But here's the problem all that you said about the Houlocaust is true but I wonder why your emphasis is on this particular horror. Prince's very point is that the horror of slavery has been given very short shift in our history. The Houlocaust was a few years of absolute terror, the slave trade went on 100's of years. Why aren't you passionately discussing the horrors of the slave trade?

Why is nobody else suffering worth exploring and commenting on? The Jews suffered terriblely (along with others) but that doesn't mean that particular event should override all the other tragedies that have occured in history.

I find it interesting that so many people jump to be offended by this song without giving any thought to the overriding message of the song. In other words the victims Prince wishes to focus on in the song are not even considered by those you wish to only focus on the supposed afront to the Houlocaust.

It sort of like when two women go missing. One black the other a blond white girl. Guess who gets all the news coverage?

My point (which you seem to have trouble grasping) is that it was unnecessary for Prince to diminish the horrors of the Holocaust to elevate the horrors of slavery (which, frankly, are well known).

And the Holocaust (as I pointed out in my post, which you apparently did not bother to actually...ya know...read) was just a brief episode in the history of Jewish persecution - which stretches back to the days of the Roman Empire and continues today. (So...what...over 2000 years?) Which suggests that the Holocaust doesn't really override other "tragedies," as you put it - because it is ongoing, to some degree. (Incidentally, what the Holocaust actually was, was not a tragedy, but a crime. "Tragedy" suggests that what happened was just an accident - ie, nobody's fault. Which is just moronic on its face.)

Again, if Prince wanted to write a song about the horrors of slavery, he could have done it without discounting the suffering of other people. Then, his meaning would have been perfectly clear - and he would have put the focus squarely where it belongs.

[Edited 3/8/12 8:53am]

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

But here's the problem all that you said about the Houlocaust is true but I wonder why your emphasis is on this particular horror. Prince's very point is that the horror of slavery has been given very short shift in our history. The Houlocaust was a few years of absolute terror, the slave trade went on 100's of years. Why aren't you passionately discussing the horrors of the slave trade?

Why is nobody else suffering worth exploring and commenting on? The Jews suffered terriblely (along with others) but that doesn't mean that particular event should override all the other tragedies that have occured in history.

I find it interesting that so many people jump to be offended by this song without giving any thought to the overriding message of the song. In other words the victims Prince wishes to focus on in the song are not even considered by those you wish to only focus on the supposed afront to the Houlocaust.

It sort of like when two women go missing. One black the other a blond white girl. Guess who gets all the news coverage?

My point (which you seem to have trouble grasping) is that it was unnecessary for Prince to diminish the horrors of the Holocaust to elevate the horrors of slavery (which, frankly, are well known).

And the Holocaust (as I pointed out in my post, which you apparently did not bother to actually...ya know...read) was just a brief episode in the history of Jewish persecution - which stretches back to the days of the Roman Empire and continues today. (So...what...over 2000 years?) Which suggests that the Holocaust doesn't really override other "tragedies," as you put it - because it is ongoing, to some degree. (Incidentally, what the Holocaust actually was, was not a tragedy, but a crime. "Tragedy" suggests that what happened was just an accident - ie, nobody's fault. Which is just moronic on its face.)

Again, if Prince wanted to write a song about the horrors of slavery, he could have done it without discounting the suffering of other people. Then, his meaning would have been perfectly clear - and he would have put the focus squarely where it belongs.

[Edited 3/8/12 8:53am]

Oh I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I just think think certain people in general have a dismissive attitude about the horrors that happened to people of color. U keep bringing up the history of Jews but I don't sense any of that historic outrage from you about the Africans that suffered. They appear to me to be just be background for your outrage about the Houlocaust.

It was indeed a crime and a tragedy as was the slave trade (which u seem to dismiss as not important to this discussion). Basically you are exhibiting the mindset Prince had in mind when he said "Houlocaust aside" because to you the overriding thing to take from this song is how you feel about what prince may or may not feel about the Houlocaust.

U don't seem at all interested in his larger point about slavery at all. Why is that?

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

My point (which you seem to have trouble grasping) is that it was unnecessary for Prince to diminish the horrors of the Holocaust to elevate the horrors of slavery (which, frankly, are well known).

And the Holocaust (as I pointed out in my post, which you apparently did not bother to actually...ya know...read) was just a brief episode in the history of Jewish persecution - which stretches back to the days of the Roman Empire and continues today. (So...what...over 2000 years?) Which suggests that the Holocaust doesn't really override other "tragedies," as you put it - because it is ongoing, to some degree. (Incidentally, what the Holocaust actually was, was not a tragedy, but a crime. "Tragedy" suggests that what happened was just an accident - ie, nobody's fault. Which is just moronic on its face.)

Again, if Prince wanted to write a song about the horrors of slavery, he could have done it without discounting the suffering of other people. Then, his meaning would have been perfectly clear - and he would have put the focus squarely where it belongs.

[Edited 3/8/12 8:53am]

Oh I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I just think think certain people in general have a dismissive attitude about the horrors that happened to people of color. U keep bringing up the history of Jews but I don't sense any of that historic outrage from you about the Africans that suffered. They appear to me to be just be background for your outrage about the Houlocaust.

It was indeed a crime and a tragedy as was the slave trade (which u seem to dismiss as not important to this discussion). Basically you are exhibiting the mindset Prince had in mind when he said "Houlocaust aside" because to you the overriding thing to take from this song is how you feel about what prince may or may not feel about the Houlocaust.

U don't seem at all interested in his larger point about slavery at all. Why is that?

To say that one does not need to diminish the Holocaust to make a point about the horrors of slavery does not dismiss the horrors of slavery.

This is why I was reluctant to discuss this yet again. Some people just never get it.

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

Oh I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I just think think certain people in general have a dismissive attitude about the horrors that happened to people of color. U keep bringing up the history of Jews but I don't sense any of that historic outrage from you about the Africans that suffered. They appear to me to be just be background for your outrage about the Houlocaust.

It was indeed a crime and a tragedy as was the slave trade (which u seem to dismiss as not important to this discussion). Basically you are exhibiting the mindset Prince had in mind when he said "Houlocaust aside" because to you the overriding thing to take from this song is how you feel about what prince may or may not feel about the Houlocaust.

U don't seem at all interested in his larger point about slavery at all. Why is that?

To say that one does not need to diminish the Holocaust to make a point about the horrors of slavery does not dismiss the horrors of slavery.

This is why I was reluctant to discuss this yet again. Some people just never get it.

Exactly! Some people just never get it. Some folks have a "eurocentric" view and regardless the issue what is important is what happended to "them". So in a song about Africans the main point is still about "them". It's like a movie about civil rights where the main characters still are white.

You simply identify more with the horrors of the Houlocaust therefore the song has to be about the Houlocaust since it is mentioned even in passing. You need to find fault with Prince because how dare he even mention the Houlocaust without bowing down and acknowledging that it is the most horrible thing that ever happened in the history of mankind.

Its funny that down the street from me we have a Houlocaust museum for an event that happened in a foreign country while Slavery that happened in this very country and which we fought a war over is not accorded that same respect. That says something about this issue.

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

To say that one does not need to diminish the Holocaust to make a point about the horrors of slavery does not dismiss the horrors of slavery.

This is why I was reluctant to discuss this yet again. Some people just never get it.

Exactly! Some people just never get it. Some folks have a "eurocentric" view and regardless the issue what is important is what happended to "them". So in a song about Africans the main point is still about "them". It's like a movie about civil rights where the main characters still are white.

You simply identify more with the horrors of the Houlocaust therefore the song has to be about the Houlocaust since it is mentioned even in passing. You need to find fault with Prince because how dare he even mention the Houlocaust without bowing down and acknowledging that it is the most horrible thing that ever happened in the history of mankind.

Its funny that down the street from me we have a Houlocaust museum for an event that happened in a foreign country while Slavery that happened in this very country and which we fought a war over is not accorded that same respect. That says something about this issue.

How do you figure that I "identify more with the horrors of the Holocaust"? You know nothing about me!

1) I never, at any time, said Family Name was about the Holocaust. You made that up out of whole cloth.

2) Prince did not merely "mention" the Holocaust (needlessly, in this context) - he dismissed it.

3) Who gives a shit what museums there are in your town? There are plenty of slavery museums. I know, I've been to many - including the Black Holocaust Museum in Milwaukee, the Dusable Museum of African American History in Chicago, and the Milton House Museum (a stop on the underground railroad) in Milton, Wisconsin.

Hypocrite! First cast out the plank from your eye, and then you will see to cast out the chip from your brother's eye.

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

Exactly! Some people just never get it. Some folks have a "eurocentric" view and regardless the issue what is important is what happended to "them". So in a song about Africans the main point is still about "them". It's like a movie about civil rights where the main characters still are white.

You simply identify more with the horrors of the Houlocaust therefore the song has to be about the Houlocaust since it is mentioned even in passing. You need to find fault with Prince because how dare he even mention the Houlocaust without bowing down and acknowledging that it is the most horrible thing that ever happened in the history of mankind.

Its funny that down the street from me we have a Houlocaust museum for an event that happened in a foreign country while Slavery that happened in this very country and which we fought a war over is not accorded that same respect. That says something about this issue.

How do you figure that I "identify more with the horrors of the Holocaust"? You know nothing about me!

1) I never, at any time, said Family Name was about the Holocaust. You made that up out of whole cloth.

2) Prince did not merely "mention" the Holocaust (needlessly, in this context) - he dismissed it.

3) Who gives a shit what museums there are in your town? There are plenty of slavery museums. I know, I've been to many - including the Black Holocaust Museum in Milwaukee, the Dusable Museum of African American History in Chicago, and the Milton House Museum (a stop on the underground railroad) in Milton, Wisconsin.

Hypocrite! First cast out the plank from your eye, and then you will see to cast out the chip from your brother's eye.

1) It's your point of emphasis. You have made the song about it.

2) Many others besides myself do not intepret Prince as "dismissing" the Holocaust. That is your perspective. We simply see it has prince saying in this context lets not focus on it.

3) I don't give a shit what museums you have been too. The national Holocaust museum here in DC has no counterpoint on the issue of Slavery. That's just a fact.

tricky99 said:

Genesia said:

How do you figure that I "identify more with the horrors of the Holocaust"? You know nothing about me!

1) I never, at any time, said Family Name was about the Holocaust. You made that up out of whole cloth.

2) Prince did not merely "mention" the Holocaust (needlessly, in this context) - he dismissed it.

3) Who gives a shit what museums there are in your town? There are plenty of slavery museums. I know, I've been to many - including the Black Holocaust Museum in Milwaukee, the Dusable Museum of African American History in Chicago, and the Milton House Museum (a stop on the underground railroad) in Milton, Wisconsin.

Hypocrite! First cast out the plank from your eye, and then you will see to cast out the chip from your brother's eye.

1) It's your point of emphasis. You have made the song about it.

2) Many others besides myself do not intepret Prince as "dismissing" the Holocaust. That is your perspective. We simply see it has prince saying in this context lets not focus on it.

3) I don't give a shit what museums you have been too. The national Holocaust museum here in DC has no counterpoint on the issue of Slavery. That's just a fact.

God, you're stupid.

Somebody asked me what my objection was to Family Name and I obliged with an answer. I did not "make" the song be about anything. It is a wholly owned work of PRN.

And again, you're wrong. In DC alone (not venturing into nearby areas)...

Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture

Smithsonian Anacostia Museum

African American Civil War Memorial and Museum

Frederick Douglass National Historical Site

If you don't care enough to visit these places, that's on you.

I think the Rainbow Children got a bad rap from the start because of the association to the Jehovahs Witness religion. People couldn't separate the two. You're correct that it's probably one of his most mature works. I also think the backlash it created led to some of the more mindless stuff (i.e. There'll Never Be Another Like Me, Rich Friends...) he's released since then. You're not a hypocrite you just finally listened to the music without reservations or expectations. This wasn't the first of Prince's CDs to get slammed on here then find acceptance years down the line.

Genesia said:

tricky99 said:

1) It's your point of emphasis. You have made the song about it.

2) Many others besides myself do not intepret Prince as "dismissing" the Holocaust. That is your perspective. We simply see it has prince saying in this context lets not focus on it.

3) I don't give a shit what museums you have been too. The national Holocaust museum here in DC has no counterpoint on the issue of Slavery. That's just a fact.

God, you're stupid.

Somebody asked me what my objection was to Family Name and I obliged with an answer. I did not "make" the song be about anything. It is a wholly owned work of PRN.

And again, you're wrong. In DC alone (not venturing into nearby areas)...

Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture

Smithsonian Anacostia Museum

African American Civil War Memorial and Museum

Frederick Douglass National Historical Site

If you don't care enough to visit these places, that's on you.

You just can't resist the personal insults can u? Since my perspective is different well then I must be stupid. Its a shame you can't argue your point without resorting to that.

And you seem to be conflating anything that is about black folk with it being equivalent to slavery. That's very interesting. While some of those museums/historical places may touch on the subject. They are not about Slavery. Somehow that seems lost on you. It would be the equivalent of listing anything that had to do with Jews as equivalent to being about the Holocaust.

And if Prince is such a hate-monger why are u even a fan?