jonylawson said:

your zappa arguementa falls down on alot of points

Zappa never was THE biggest star on the planet thats what makes Prince's experimenting so utterly brave as well

Well arguably, Prince wasn't the biggest star on the planet either. But he was pretty big.

ATWIAD is still possibly THE bravest move ever on his part

Yes it is. And?

UTCM?? follow up to purple rain..utterly perverse.a black and white film set in the 30's????

UTCM wasn't exactly the "follow up" to Purple Rain. It was his next movie, but by then Prince had been so "wack" that people sort of expected it.

Lovesexy?? naked on the cover and a paen to GOD??

Neither the UTCM movie or a naked cover counts as experimental music.

Your also forgettng he needed Batman and diamonds and pearls bevcouse nots what often mentioned is as well as musician prince was a businessman with an empire who NEEDED money to keep that afloat

one man not a band like the rolling stones but this is one man whom is literally paying paisley park and all his employees

its a staggering burden

Graffitti bridge? brave (and utterly misguided)

I wouldn't call that "brave" or experimental.

symbol? how much more experimental do you want? that decsio alone warrents a whole thread.

That's not music.

THe internet decision? brave as fuck. news,trc,the war,crystall ball,the trurth etc etc

"Internet" is not music.

so the zappa/ellington comparisson is received wisdom and it gets filed under "27 instruments"

i would quite happily argue this cat has had the bravest and most experimental career of any major artist.ever.period.

Music wise, no.

zappa? come on (and i love me some zappa) but 99% of the pubic dont know zappa and off hand he had i think one top 30 hit?? wasnt it valley girl?

That has nothing to do with experimental music.

Whether or not Prince was experimental in his career is another thing, but I'm talking music-wise.

jonylawson said:

your zappa arguementa falls down on alot of points

Zappa never was THE biggest star on the planet thats what makes Prince's experimenting so utterly brave as well

ATWIAD is still possibly THE bravest move ever on his part

UTCM?? follow up to purple rain..utterly perverse.a black and white film set in the 30's????

Lovesexy?? naked on the cover and a paen to GOD??

Your also forgettng he needed Batman and diamonds and pearls bevcouse nots what often mentioned is as well as musician prince was a businessman with an empire who NEEDED money to keep that afloat

one man not a band like the rolling stones but this is one man whom is literally paying paisley park and all his employees

its a staggering burden

Graffitti bridge? brave (and utterly misguided)

symbol? how much more experimental do you want? that decsio alone warrents a whole thread.

THe internet decision? brave as fuck. news,trc,the war,crystall ball,the trurth etc etc

so the zappa/ellington comparisson is received wisdom and it gets filed under "27 instruments"

i would quite happily argue this cat has had the bravest and most experimental career of any major artist.ever.period.

zappa? come on (and i love me some zappa) but 99% of the pubic dont know zappa and off hand he had i think one top 30 hit?? wasnt it valley girl?

You are now moving the goalposts from experimental to brave. The discussion was never about which of them is braver, it is about which one pushed themselves more to experiment and try new/different things musically. You are right, Prince was a much bigger star than Frank Zappa ever was but that means that he had a lot more money than Frank too. Prince had a cushion to try different things, he knew if he failed he could always churn out a more commercially friendly album. Frank did not have that luxury. Frank may not have had an empire but he did usually have a fairly large band that needed to be paid for and he was often under tremendous financial strain. Arguably he could have tried to be commercial but it was more important to him to be artistically true to what he wanted to do. In my opinion that is just as brave, arguably braver, than anything Prince has ever done.

You seem to be arguing that because Prince was a massive pop star and Frank wasn't that means Prince was the more experimental of the two. I would very much argue the opposite. Sure, most people are not familiar with Frank's music...BECAUSE IT IS SO EXPERIMENTAL! He didn't just write simple pop songs, he was much more ambitious than that. Play just about any Frank Zappa album to a casual music fan and they probably wouldn't be able to handle it. Consequently, his music reached a relatively small audience. The fact that he only had one top forty pop hit is completely irrelevent to whether or not he was more experimental than Prince.

How about this. Listen to Frank's very first album (Freak Out!) and tell me if Prince has ever recorded anything remotely like it.

[Edited 1/29/12 12:56pm]

[Edited 1/29/12 12:59pm]

The org is a hard crowd for Prince to please. I think people want experimental stuff that everybody likes, including non-Prince fans. Tall order.

rialb said:

jonylawson said:

your zappa arguementa falls down on alot of points

Zappa never was THE biggest star on the planet thats what makes Prince's experimenting so utterly brave as well

ATWIAD is still possibly THE bravest move ever on his part

UTCM?? follow up to purple rain..utterly perverse.a black and white film set in the 30's????

Lovesexy?? naked on the cover and a paen to GOD??

Your also forgettng he needed Batman and diamonds and pearls bevcouse nots what often mentioned is as well as musician prince was a businessman with an empire who NEEDED money to keep that afloat

one man not a band like the rolling stones but this is one man whom is literally paying paisley park and all his employees

its a staggering burden

Graffitti bridge? brave (and utterly misguided)

symbol? how much more experimental do you want? that decsio alone warrents a whole thread.

THe internet decision? brave as fuck. news,trc,the war,crystall ball,the trurth etc etc

so the zappa/ellington comparisson is received wisdom and it gets filed under "27 instruments"

i would quite happily argue this cat has had the bravest and most experimental career of any major artist.ever.period.

zappa? come on (and i love me some zappa) but 99% of the pubic dont know zappa and off hand he had i think one top 30 hit?? wasnt it valley girl?

You are now moving the goalposts from experimental to brave. The discussion was never about which of them is braver, it is about which one pushed themselves more to experiment and try new/different things musically. You are right, Prince was a much bigger star than Frank Zappa ever was but that means that he had a lot more money than Frank too. Prince had a cushion to try different things, he knew if he failed he could always churn out a more commercially friendly album. Frank did not have that luxury. Frank may not have had an empire but he did usually have a fairly large band that needed to be paid for and he was often under tremendous financial strain. Arguably he could have tried to be commercial but it was more important to him to be artistically true to what he wanted to do. In my opinion that is just as brave, arguably braver, than anything Prince has ever done.

You seem to be arguing that because Prince was a massive pop star and Frank wasn't that means Prince was the more experimental of the two. I would very much argue the opposite. Sure, most people are not familiar with Frank's music...BECAUSE IT IS SO EXPERIMENTAL! He didn't just write simple pop songs, he was much more ambitious than that. Play just about any Frank Zappa album to a casual music fan and they probably wouldn't be able to handle it. Consequently, his music reached a relatively small audience. The fact that he only had one top forty pop hit is completely irrelevent to whether or not he was more experimental than Prince.

How about this. Listen to Frank's very first album (Freak Out!) and tell me if Prince has ever recorded anything remotely like it.

[Edited 1/29/12 12:56pm]

[Edited 1/29/12 12:59pm]

look man,im enjoying this debate but sometimes 'experimental" just means down right unlistenable

and this whole"he didnt want to be commercial........."Of course you want to people on a grand scale to appreciate your art

princes popular output between 81-87 is amazing due to the fact it appears to be completly uncompromised

to this day as a Prince fan i am still amazed hes a mega star...he never should have been!! his music was so groundbreaking

diamonds and pearls? yes commerical WITH compromise

zappa s talent was for the aant garde and experimental but damn sometimes...i just want a pretty melody!

give me kind of blue over ascension ANY DAY!

rialb said:

jonylawson said:

your zappa arguementa falls down on alot of points

Zappa never was THE biggest star on the planet thats what makes Prince's experimenting so utterly brave as well

ATWIAD is still possibly THE bravest move ever on his part

UTCM?? follow up to purple rain..utterly perverse.a black and white film set in the 30's????

Lovesexy?? naked on the cover and a paen to GOD??

Your also forgettng he needed Batman and diamonds and pearls bevcouse nots what often mentioned is as well as musician prince was a businessman with an empire who NEEDED money to keep that afloat

one man not a band like the rolling stones but this is one man whom is literally paying paisley park and all his employees

its a staggering burden

Graffitti bridge? brave (and utterly misguided)

symbol? how much more experimental do you want? that decsio alone warrents a whole thread.

THe internet decision? brave as fuck. news,trc,the war,crystall ball,the trurth etc etc

so the zappa/ellington comparisson is received wisdom and it gets filed under "27 instruments"

i would quite happily argue this cat has had the bravest and most experimental career of any major artist.ever.period.

zappa? come on (and i love me some zappa) but 99% of the pubic dont know zappa and off hand he had i think one top 30 hit?? wasnt it valley girl?

You are now moving the goalposts from experimental to brave. The discussion was never about which of them is braver, it is about which one pushed themselves more to experiment and try new/different things musically. You are right, Prince was a much bigger star than Frank Zappa ever was but that means that he had a lot more money than Frank too. Prince had a cushion to try different things, he knew if he failed he could always churn out a more commercially friendly album. Frank did not have that luxury. Frank may not have had an empire but he did usually have a fairly large band that needed to be paid for and he was often under tremendous financial strain. Arguably he could have tried to be commercial but it was more important to him to be artistically true to what he wanted to do. In my opinion that is just as brave, arguably braver, than anything Prince has ever done.

You seem to be arguing that because Prince was a massive pop star and Frank wasn't that means Prince was the more experimental of the two. I would very much argue the opposite. Sure, most people are not familiar with Frank's music...BECAUSE IT IS SO EXPERIMENTAL! He didn't just write simple pop songs, he was much more ambitious than that. Play just about any Frank Zappa album to a casual music fan and they probably wouldn't be able to handle it. Consequently, his music reached a relatively small audience. The fact that he only had one top forty pop hit is completely irrelevent to whether or not he was more experimental than Prince.

How about this. Listen to Frank's very first album (Freak Out!) and tell me if Prince has ever recorded anything remotely like it.

[Edited 1/29/12 12:56pm]

[Edited 1/29/12 12:59pm]

look man,im enjoying this debate but sometimes 'experimental" just means down right unlistenable

and this whole"he didnt want to be commercial........."Of course you want to people on a grand scale to appreciate your art

princes popular output between 81-87 is amazing due to the fact it appears to be completly uncompromised

to this day as a Prince fan i am still amazed hes a mega star...he never should have been!! his music was so groundbreaking

diamonds and pearls? yes commerical WITH compromise

zappa s talent was for the aant garde and experimental but damn sometimes...i just want a pretty melody!

give me kind of blue over ascension ANY DAY!

but my ? remains...explain how ellington was so "experimental" during his career.

jonylawson said:

but my ? remains...explain how ellington was so "experimental" during his career.

Look at his body of work.

smoothcriminal12 said:

jonylawson said:

but my ? remains...explain how ellington was so "experimental" during his career.

Look at his body of work.

i am aware of ellingtons body of work.One of the greatest of all time.

undeniable

but your point remains.Tell me how ellington was so experimental during ALL his career.

you made the point

(i often drop ellington into conversations when im trying to look clever but sometimes my bluff is called)

I Personaly look at Prince as a man who continually kept expirementing musically.

lets take a look of a time lime.

Dirty mind was his 1st major expirimentation judging by his previous 2 albums. this new

raw and gritty prince was something he did not do before. and this continued with Controversy

when he experimented with new wave sounds and the Linn drum machine.

from 1999 - purple rain was more experementation that goes along with dirty mind and controversy for he began to perfect his sound

ATWIAD - was a huge transition playing with more so 60's beatle-esqu songs and takeing a

more open approach to new sounds and instruments.

Parade - was great and so different musically. nuff said I believe this is his most experimental

project.

sign o the times. was not some much experimental at all. but still a great listen and it was good to hear a more FOCUSED prince

batman - was nothing new at all... but lovesexxy was musically different for him. it has a whole other sound that prince went with. and lyricaly this was his biggest risk of the 80's

diamonds and pearls - the love symbol album - were exsperamental for Prince personaly caus he

spent alot of times bashing hiphop and then for him to go head first into the sound was a big leap.

the only sign of expirimental music through the rest of the 90's would have to be THe Gold exp. for exsample... the song "NOW" i dont think anyone exspected prince to come out with something like that.

my favorite expiramental album by prince did not come till the millenium hit wit "The rainbow children" .... plus recent albums like lotus flower and planet earth had some good expiremental moments...

but even non experimental albums were good also ! like Prince, sign o the times, Emancipation, musicology, 3121. so all n all i think prince tool the direction that he wanted to at times and was always evolving his sound

[Edited 1/29/12 13:46pm]

jonylawson said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Look at his body of work.

i am aware of ellingtons body of work.One of the greatest of all time.

undeniable

but your point remains.Tell me how ellington was so experimental during ALL his career.

you made the point

(i often drop ellington into conversations when im trying to look clever but sometimes my bluff is called)

So you're telling me I'm trying to look clever? Please. YOU may try to look clever at times, but that is not what I'm doing right now. Just because it applies to you doesn't mean it applies to me.

He took jazz and completely changed the face of it and how the rest of the world perceived it as. Changing a genre completely - to me - that's mighty experimental. That's huge. I wouldn't really say that Prince has "changed" a genre.

smoothcriminal12 said:

jonylawson said:

i am aware of ellingtons body of work.One of the greatest of all time.

undeniable

but your point remains.Tell me how ellington was so experimental during ALL his career.

you made the point

(i often drop ellington into conversations when im trying to look clever but sometimes my bluff is called)

So you're telling me I'm trying to look clever? Please. YOU may try to look clever at times, but that is not what I'm doing right now. Just because it applies to you doesn't mean it applies to me.

He took jazz and completely changed the face of it and how the rest of the world perceived it as. Changing a genre completely - to me - that's mighty experimental. That's huge. I wouldn't really say that Prince has "changed" a genre.

PRINCE NEVER CHANGED A GENRE??????????????????????

ooooooooookay

let te debate begin

(and reread your original post-re elington.i believe you have "played yourself" i suggest a quick google for some ellington facts-quick!!)

jonylawson said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

So you're telling me I'm trying to look clever? Please. YOU may try to look clever at times, but that is not what I'm doing right now. Just because it applies to you doesn't mean it applies to me.

He took jazz and completely changed the face of it and how the rest of the world perceived it as. Changing a genre completely - to me - that's mighty experimental. That's huge. I wouldn't really say that Prince has "changed" a genre.

PRINCE NEVER CHANGED A GENRE??????????????????????

ooooooooookay

let te debate begin

(and reread your original post-re elington.i believe you have "played yourself" i suggest a quick google for some ellington facts-quick!!)

Explained to me how I "played myself."

and to take you to task again with this.......

. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more,

what possible "genres" were left? ragamuffin??

morris dancing?

The man has "experimented" with jazz,funk,countrysoul,blues,pop,ballet,chamber,classical,

christ he even made a song with scissors?!!!

jonylawson said:

and to take you to task again with this.......

. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more,

what possible "genres" were left? ragamuffin??

morris dancing?

The man has "experimented" with jazz,funk,countrysoul,blues,pop,ballet,chamber,classical,

christ he even made a song with scissors?!!!

I have stated multiple times that I wanted him to continue with the sort of psychedelic-esque, Parade/Dream Factory music that he had been doing.

I would never say that Prince has "fully" experimented with a genre. He is a great hybrid artist. But Prince hasn't done everything under the sun, and that's not really the point of this thread.

Now back to the question at hand, explain to me how I "played myself".

well you are still to answer the ellington question

if you are saying you wish P had been more experimental like ellington...how??

and Prince's downfall??

Number one allbums?

sell out gigs around the world

headlined most major festivals

im always curious how one defines downfall

jonylawson said:

well you are still to answer the ellington question

if you are saying you wish P had been more experimental like ellington...how??

and Prince's downfall??

Number one allbums?

sell out gigs around the world

headlined most major festivals

im always curious how one defines downfall

Once again, I've alreayd explained myself. I was talking about the quality of his creative output. Once again, I will repeat, Prince is not bad, he still makes good music. Just not at the level that it was during the 80's. That's all. Number one albums, sold out gigs, and major festivals has nothing to do with the quality of your music.

I already explained how I meant by experimental. I said if he had continued doing what he was doing at that time, he could've been like them.

I've answered already. I'm now wondering if you're reading my posts or just skipping over them?

rialb said:

I partially agree. For me it was the pressure of competing with new jack swing/rap that made his music suffer. I don't really have a problem with him doing very commercial music but I do wish he let his experimental side shine through more often. For the most part I have very much enjoyed his music circa 2004-present but for the most part it is very "safe." I would love to see him try something completely different and outside of his funk/pop/rock comfort zone.

I don't think new jack swing and rap had anything to do with it. It's weird to me that so many fans always blame r&b-based music for what they feel is a decline in quality of his work.

He's done more 'experimental', avant-garde shit anyway and you folks even bitched about that ( "The Rainbow Children"), so...

Dren5 said:

rialb said:

I partially agree. For me it was the pressure of competing with new jack swing/rap that made his music suffer. I don't really have a problem with him doing very commercial music but I do wish he let his experimental side shine through more often. For the most part I have very much enjoyed his music circa 2004-present but for the most part it is very "safe." I would love to see him try something completely different and outside of his funk/pop/rock comfort zone.

I don't think new jack swing and rap had anything to do with it. It's weird to me that so many fans always blame r&b-based music for what they feel is a decline in quality of his work.

He's done more 'experimental', avant-garde shit anyway and you folks even bitched about that ( "The Rainbow Children"), so...

I liked Rainbow Children.

I agree that he should have continued experimenting, BUT I do believe that he exhausted genres too quickly.

The Parade album is arguably his most unique-sounding album. Maybe not his best, but nothing since quite sounds like it. Sure, it's sorta a continuation of ATWIAD, but also stands out on its own.

I guess my point is that sound "deserved" more than just one album. Maybe do 2 or 3 in a row in that style.

Se7en said:

I agree that he should have continued experimenting, BUT I do believe that he exhausted genres too quickly.

The Parade album is arguably his most unique-sounding album. Maybe not his best, but nothing since quite sounds like it. Sure, it's sorta a continuation of ATWIAD, but also stands out on its own.

I guess my point is that sound "deserved" more than just one album. Maybe do 2 or 3 in a row in that style.

Dren5 said:

rialb said:

I partially agree. For me it was the pressure of competing with new jack swing/rap that made his music suffer. I don't really have a problem with him doing very commercial music but I do wish he let his experimental side shine through more often. For the most part I have very much enjoyed his music circa 2004-present but for the most part it is very "safe." I would love to see him try something completely different and outside of his funk/pop/rock comfort zone.

I don't think new jack swing and rap had anything to do with it. It's weird to me that so many fans always blame r&b-based music for what they feel is a decline in quality of his work.

He's done more 'experimental', avant-garde shit anyway and you folks even bitched about that ( "The Rainbow Children"), so...

Well, most fans seem to agree that the late eighties/early nineties was when he started to lose his edge. Batman was an exception but albums like Lovesexy and Grafitti Bridge were commercial disappointments. After that Prince started to heavily incorporate rap into his music, often clumsily and with awkward results. Did Prince genuinely like rap or did he just think that was what people wanted to hear?

I take your point about The Rainbow Children, it was definitely something new and different but many fans loathe it. Still, the fact that he tried something different and fan opinion was very much divided does not mean he should play it safe. I have said before that generally I have very much enjoyed his albums from 2004-present but at the same time I would like to see him try something different. For the most part his recent albums have been very "safe." Maybe he will try something new and I will hate it but I still think he should try. He has mastered writing funk/pop songs and I enjoy his new efforts but if he pushed himself more I think he still has some great genre defying music in him.

andymacfunky said:

The org is a hard crowd for Prince to please. I think people want experimental stuff that everybody likes, including non-Prince fans. Tall order.

That's why always the mention of Parade and When Doves Cry - it's amazing he hit the jackpot as many times as he has; it's not amazing that he hasn't done it more, in fact, it's to be expected. Experimental + Everybody likes + Radio play/glory/big star ... that's like the chupacabra.

smoothcriminal12 said:

databank said:

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

I personally feel that Lovesexy/The Black Album/Sign (Crystal Ball doesn't count as it wasn't released) was a return to more "conventional" music after Parade, although you may disgaree.

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

W&L as a whole aren't amazing but they did make some great music with Prince.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

There was definitely, in my viewpoint, a significant decline in the quality of his output after 1987/1988.

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

W&L are wonderful composers in my book, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that there maybe they'd already made Prince listen to all the new music they could expose him to at the time of their departure. The major influence W&L, as well as Eric, had on Prince might have been the music they'd made him listen to much more that the music they did with him. That's what was reported by some people who were there at the time anyway...

I'm not gonna rgue with you over the "decline", because in the end the quality of an artist's output is 90% subjective, and it's hard to demonstrate why and how such or such music is better than such other.

About conventional music, I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know if you were there at the time (I don't know how old you are) but in the musical context of 1987-1988, Sign "O" The Times, The Black Album and Lovesexy was some really WEIRD shit. Hard to think of anything more "experimental" among the mainstream artists of these years. Even Batman was actually, for the most part, a really odd musical object back then. Stuff like Housequake, It, Hot Thing, If I Was Your Girlfriend, Shockadelica, Bob George, 2 Nigs United 4 West Campton, Positivity, Lovesexy, Dance On... not to mention the song Crystal Ball itself (released years later but, just like The Black Album, already circulating on boots back then)... Almost all the songs actually : they all were really unconventional stuff. Everything back then sounded all the same: Michael Jackson's Bad, Stevie Wonder's Characters, George Michael's Faith, David Bowie's Never Let Me Down, Terence Trent d'Arby's Introducing The Hard Line, Chaka Khan's C.K., Bootsy Collins' What's Bootsy Doin', Madonna's You Can Dance, Cameo's Machismo, Rick james' Wonderful, Sade's Stronger Than Pride, Bryan Ferry's Bête Noire, Eurythmics' Savage and countless others: they all sounded more like Taja Sevelle than anything released by Prince in 87-88. Some great albums are included in the list above, I'm not saying, but they share a very similar sound and a very conventional structure in the compositions of the songs they contain. Sure they were some more organic things like Sting's Nothing Like The Sun or Thomas Dolby's Aliens Ate My Buick, some hardcore electro-cookies like Herbie Hancock's Perfect Machine, Ryuichi Sakamoto's Neo Geo and other electro-hop or Laswell-produced things, and of course there were all the non-mainstream artists (early house music, early hip-hop, indie rock, dub, ambient, contemporary and so on) but among the mainstream artists (and even among quite a number of supposedly experimental ones) Prince's albums sounded just fucking WEIRD, and definitely unlike anything else.

And as for the jazz scene, the aformentioned 2 Nigs United... and the insanity that was Madhouse's 16 made everyone in the jazz scene back then (save Toshinori Kondo, who was as mad as Prince), sound like old rotten fuckers .

Now OK, I'll give you that: Jon Hassell was WAAAAAAAY more experimental than Prince, but he was one of a few

[Edited 1/30/12 4:13am]

databank said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

Just a reminder (I know u know this) Crystal Ball & Sign o the Times were the music of the Dream Factory sessions.

I don't think Wendy & Lisa really need to be brought into this, it confuses the discussion

fusk said:

JoeTyler said:

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

yeah, but let's not overlook the fact that once pop culture moved on, prince desperately tried to update his sound (at least it seems desperate), with awkward results. I think there's a strong connection between the media becoming bored of prince and the compromised sound he had when he was trying to get funky fresh for the 90s. You sort of have to take both events together.

This is a very factual statement

The people that were pushing Prince have left his camp. And all he has now is camp. Camp versions of hip hop, mpslsound, jazz, blues. It's all run of the mill music now with a heavy camp feel.

rialb said:

Dren5 said:

I don't think new jack swing and rap had anything to do with it. It's weird to me that so many fans always blame r&b-based music for what they feel is a decline in quality of his work.

He's done more 'experimental', avant-garde shit anyway and you folks even bitched about that ( "The Rainbow Children"), so...

Well, most fans seem to agree that the late eighties/early nineties was when he started to lose his edge. Batman was an exception but albums like Lovesexy and Grafitti Bridge were commercial disappointments. After that Prince started to heavily incorporate rap into his music, often clumsily and with awkward results. Did Prince genuinely like rap or did he just think that was what people wanted to hear?

I take your point about The Rainbow Children, it was definitely something new and different but many fans loathe it. Still, the fact that he tried something different and fan opinion was very much divided does not mean he should play it safe. I have said before that generally I have very much enjoyed his albums from 2004-present but at the same time I would like to see him try something different. For the most part his recent albums have been very "safe." Maybe he will try something new and I will hate it but I still think he should try. He has mastered writing funk/pop songs and I enjoy his new efforts but if he pushed himself more I think he still has some great genre defying music in him.

I really don't think Prince liked rap, and I think it really showed forth in 'his' 1990's presentation

I think for someone of his style & status he compromised.

Rainbow Children I LOVE, I can't easily follow the lyrics but I'm more into the musical arrangements (and does it sound like "prince") and how the lyrics are sung. Mostly gone is that 1990's 'homeboy rap' voice he adopted.

I think most of the fans that don't like it is because of the JW connection and the accusations of 'bigotry' I think if the lyrics was more like ATWIAD or Lovesexy with a storyline it would be more appreciated by a wider range of fans

databank said:

And as for the jazz scene, the aformentioned 2 Nigs United... and the insanity that was Madhouse's 16 made everyone in the jazz scene back then (save Toshinori Kondo, who was as mad as Prince), sound like old rotten fuckers .

Now OK, I'll give you that: Jon Hassell was WAAAAAAAY more experimental than Prince, but he was one of a few

I felt that music was very experimental as well.

in 1985/86 when I first heard Old Friends 4 Sale on the radio compared to everything else he did prior that song was serioulsy jazzy experimentation. It's still one of my top 5 favorites