As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

It is, as it was.

i think those that dont understand music or legacy often refer to the duke ellington comparison becouse we all heard miles say and hey it sounds cool and as thought we are very knowing

compared to ellington AND zappa Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work

please expand on this zappa and ellington comparrison

jonylawson said:

i think those that dont understand music or legacy often refer to the duke ellington comparison becouse we all heard miles say and hey it sounds cool and as thought we are very knowing

compared to ellington AND zappa Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work

please expand on this zappa and ellington comparrison

Really now?

Frank Zappa and Duke Ellington have some of the most exhaustive catalogs in music that are quite diverse. In fact, I didn't even know Miles Davis had said anything about Duke Ellington and Prince, so...

EDIT: To say that Prince released more "experimental" work is laughable to me...I don't really see anything Prince released that was any more experimental.

[Edited 1/28/12 21:27pm]

smoothcriminal12 said:

jonylawson said:

i think those that dont understand music or legacy often refer to the duke ellington comparison becouse we all heard miles say and hey it sounds cool and as thought we are very knowing

compared to ellington AND zappa Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work

please expand on this zappa and ellington comparrison

Really now?

Frank Zappa and Duke Ellington have some of the most exhaustive catalogs in music that are quite diverse. In fact, I didn't even know Miles Davis had said anything about Duke Ellington and Prince, so...

EDIT: To say that Prince released more "experimental" work is laughable to me...I don't really see anything Prince released that was any more experimental.

[Edited 1/28/12 21:27pm]

again....examples??

I partially agree. For me it was the pressure of competing with new jack swing/rap that made his music suffer. I don't really have a problem with him doing very commercial music but I do wish he let his experimental side shine through more often. For the most part I have very much enjoyed his music circa 2004-present but for the most part it is very "safe." I would love to see him try something completely different and outside of his funk/pop/rock comfort zone.

jonylawson said:

i think those that dont understand music or legacy often refer to the duke ellington comparison becouse we all heard miles say and hey it sounds cool and as thought we are very knowing

compared to ellington AND zappa Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work

please expand on this zappa and ellington comparrison

How familiar are you with Frank Zappa's catalog? I don't know how anyone that is familiar with both Prince and Frank Zappa could claim that "Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work."

I am a much bigger fan of Prince but Zappa was much further "out there" than Prince ever was. For much of his career Prince was very conscious of being commercially accessible, I'm not sure that commercial accessibility was ever a factor for Zappa.

For me the most obvious difference is in their instrumental albums. Frank was really able to master the different genres he attempted while Prince has merely dabbled.

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I really think "Lovesexy" was very experimental for it's time. There wasn't an album sounding like that. Don't see why the Dream Factory is experimental, and Lovesexy isn't.

For me, the "Batman" album was the first where he started to play safe.

jonylawson said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Really now?

Frank Zappa and Duke Ellington have some of the most exhaustive catalogs in music that are quite diverse. In fact, I didn't even know Miles Davis had said anything about Duke Ellington and Prince, so...

EDIT: To say that Prince released more "experimental" work is laughable to me...I don't really see anything Prince released that was any more experimental.

[Edited 1/28/12 21:27pm]

again....examples??

Examples? Of what? Are you familiar with their work?

rialb said:

jonylawson said:

i think those that dont understand music or legacy often refer to the duke ellington comparison becouse we all heard miles say and hey it sounds cool and as thought we are very knowing

compared to ellington AND zappa Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work

please expand on this zappa and ellington comparrison

How familiar are you with Frank Zappa's catalog? I don't know how anyone that is familiar with both Prince and Frank Zappa could claim that "Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work."

I am a much bigger fan of Prince but Zappa was much further "out there" than Prince ever was. For much of his career Prince was very conscious of being commercially accessible, I'm not sure that commercial accessibility was ever a factor for Zappa.

For me the most obvious difference is in their instrumental albums. Frank was really able to master the different genres he attempted while Prince has merely dabbled.

HuMpThAnG said:

rialb said:

How familiar are you with Frank Zappa's catalog? I don't know how anyone that is familiar with both Prince and Frank Zappa could claim that "Prince took more risks and released much more "experimental" work."

I am a much bigger fan of Prince but Zappa was much further "out there" than Prince ever was. For much of his career Prince was very conscious of being commercially accessible, I'm not sure that commercial accessibility was ever a factor for Zappa.

For me the most obvious difference is in their instrumental albums. Frank was really able to master the different genres he attempted while Prince has merely dabbled.

If anyone heard The Yellow Shark they would know this.

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

databank said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

Artistically most people who are not diehard fans consider everything after 1987 to be vastly inferior to what came before. I'm not saying that is true but for many he never recaptured the magic of the run he had in the eighties.

databank said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

Sorry smoothcriminal, but I have to agree with databank. I mean isn't'experimenting' what he's been doing post W&L, moreso than when he was with them? I don't see where Prince has 'fallen'. I'm glad his music doesn't sound like everyone else's. I like musicians/artists that are not afraid 'to test the waters' instead of 'playing it safe' in fear of criticism from their fans. This way they don't get 'pigeon-holed' into one genre of music or are predictable, like the music of many artists. I also don't see what more he could have done with W&L. I like that he doesn't stay in one genre of music, and has taken risks, since W&L, are no longer with him, even if some may not agree. He doesn't just do funk/pop/rock, in the past few years he's touched on latin-flavored sounds, jazz, ballads, r&B, blues, blues-rock, gospel-flavored tunes, *rockabilly(*which you can here all over 'No More Candy 4 U"), etc. Not to mention the jazzy sounds of "C-Note" album with the exception of "Empty Room" which was heavily, rock-based.

So no, I don't believe he just stays in one or two forms of music at all. Also, it's no surprise that he doesn't like to be 'pigeon-holed' into any, one category of music. I think if he kept W&L he would have been pigeon-holed into a specific or familiar style of music, and would have done less experimentation. I believe many fans attach themselves to 80s Prince and can't seem to move out of that time period. This isn't the 80s anymore, music has changed and music fans are open to a wide, variety of alternatives. The 'poppy/rock' sound of many artists back in the 80s, would not be received the same way on a large scale today, like it was back then. So it was necessary to try new forms and change with the times. If you turn on most radio stations today, everything sounds more electronic pop. Even rap and r&b have been 'watered-down'

[Edited 1/29/12 13:28pm]

databank said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

As I've said before, Parade was, arguably, Prince's peak and his greatest album. I feel that he should have continued on the experimental path he had been pursuing after that album. Although many here love The Black Album and Lovesexy (as I do), they are nothing compared to what he could have been coming out with if he had continued experimenting. It sort of marked a return to simplicity for Prince. Don't get me wrong, Sign "o" The Times is a brilliant album, but can you imagine if Dream Factory was released after Parade? And what he could have released after that?

I believe that if he had continued on he would have become the Duke Ellington or Frank Zappa of our time. The quality of the music would have been astounding. I do sort of regret that he fired Wendy & Lisa and went backed to his damn shell instead of continuing to expand musically. I think that was one of the factors that lead to his downfall. If Prince had continued exploring more genres and experimenting more, he might not have fallen so quickly.

Just my 2 cents. What does the org think?

I don't understand your point, neither do I see in which ways Parade and Dream Factory were more "experimental" than Crystal Ball, Sign "O" The Times and Lovesexy. Define "experimental". What is "experimental" for you? Is Parade more experimental than The War, Kamasutra or N.E.W.S.? If son why? How can Parade be more experimental than weird pieces such as The Black Album and Lovesexy?

I personally feel that Lovesexy/The Black Album/Sign (Crystal Ball doesn't count as it wasn't released) was a return to more "conventional" music after Parade, although you may disgaree.

As for W&L I think he took all he could from them before he fired them. I fail to see what "more" they could have brought in terms of musical expansion: their albums are wonderful but they are pop and folk-rock stuff, nothing Prince doesn't already know about.

W&L as a whole aren't amazing but they did make some great music with Prince.

Nor do I understand where or when Prince has "fallen"

There was definitely, in my viewpoint, a significant decline in the quality of his output after 1987/1988.

I share your opinion that Prince could and should expand his musical vocabulary, and try new things, and explore more non-mainstream musical genres. But I don't understand how what you say lead us there. Please reformulate and explain your thread

I do agree that albums like N.E.W.S and The Rainbow Children are quite experimental, but can you imagine if he was doing that at his peak rather than now?

smoothcriminal12 said:

I do agree that albums like N.E.W.S and The Rainbow Children are quite experimental, but can you imagine if he was doing that at his peak rather than now?

N.E.W.S. may be experimental but if so it is a failed experiment.

rialb said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I do agree that albums like N.E.W.S and The Rainbow Children are quite experimental, but can you imagine if he was doing that at his peak rather than now?

N.E.W.S. may be experimental but if so it is a failed experiment.

smoothcriminal12 said:

I do agree that albums like N.E.W.S are quite experimental, but can you imagine if he was doing that at his peak rather than now?

He was. Never heard the Madhouse albums? Never heard of The Flesh sessions? Fair enough we don't have The Flesh material to listen to but the Madhouse stuff was an experiment of sorts and much as I like NEWS, I find the Madhouse albums more of a musical challenge.

I'm tired of the Dream Factory thing

Parade is a fantastic, experimental album

SOTT is a fantastic, experimental album

BlackAlbum/Lovesexy is a fantastic, experimental double album

who needs an officially released (or re-recorded) version of Dream Factory??? I don't, I just enjoy it the way it is: it's Prince's mythical/never released album (due to many reasons), and that's part of the charm.

and by the way, Prince never stopped experimenting: LoveSymbol, half of TGE, half of Emancipation, TRC, Lotus, etc. We need both mainstream (D&P, Rave, Musicology, 3121) and experimental albums...

TheDigitalGardener said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I do agree that albums like N.E.W.S are quite experimental, but can you imagine if he was doing that at his peak rather than now?

He was. Never heard the Madhouse albums? Never heard of The Flesh sessions? Fair enough we don't have The Flesh material to listen to but the Madhouse stuff was an experiment of sorts and much as I like NEWS, I find the Madhouse albums more of a musical challenge.

I should clarified. Experimental a la Parade and Dream Factory.

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

JoeTyler said:

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

This is a great discussion thread and is better than most of the crap usually found on this section of the forum. If you don't like it, don't participate, because it has provoked some interesting discussion thus far.

I personally believe that the music was not as interesting post-1990, but that does not mean that the music after was bad. It's called a difference in opinion. Nothing to get worked up about.

smoothcriminal12 said:

JoeTyler said:

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

This is a great discussion thread and is better than most of the crap usually found on this section of the forum. If you don't like it, don't participate, because it has provoked some interesting discussion thus far.

I personally believe that the music was not as interesting post-1990, but that does not mean that the music after was bad. It's called a difference in opinion. Nothing to get worked up about.

So is it that you just like his 80's music? With albums like the Rainbow Children, NEWS or jams like the War, even the way he did Love Like Jazz or the in and outro of the Lotus Flower. they were obviously experimental even though you may not like them. So to say he stopped experimenting is not really true, you just don't like it. which is fine.

I would like to make the point that just because an album/song is instrumental does not necessarily mean that it is experimental. When the subject of Prince and experimentation comes up people inevitably point to the Madhouse albums and N.E.W.S. as proof of his experimental side but some of his vocal songs are much more experimental than his instrumental music.

JoeTyler said:

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

yeah, but let's not overlook the fact that once pop culture moved on, prince desperately tried to update his sound (at least it seems desperate), with awkward results. I think there's a strong connection between the media becoming bored of prince and the compromised sound he had when he was trying to get funky fresh for the 90s. You sort of have to take both events together.

rialb said:

I would like to make the point that just because an album/song is instrumental does not necessarily mean that it is experimental. When the subject of Prince and experimentation comes up people inevitably point to the Madhouse albums and N.E.W.S. as proof of his experimental side but some of his vocal songs are much more experimental than his instrumental music.

yes, agreed

and i'm also gonna throw my voice in with the 'zappa was easily more experimental than prince' crowd.

fusk said:

JoeTyler said:

and by the way, Prince "never" fell

downfall? bullshit.

the mainstream media and the mainstream pop-tarts stopped caring about his new music circa 1997-98. That's a big difference...

overall, this thread is bullshit

yeah, but let's not overlook the fact that once pop culture moved on, prince desperately tried to update his sound (at least it seems desperate), with awkward results. I think there's a strong connection between the media becoming bored of prince and the compromised sound he had when he was trying to get funky fresh for the 90s. You sort of have to take both events together.

rialb said:

I would like to make the point that just because an album/song is instrumental does not necessarily mean that it is experimental. When the subject of Prince and experimentation comes up people inevitably point to the Madhouse albums and N.E.W.S. as proof of his experimental side but some of his vocal songs are much more experimental than his instrumental music.

That's true but it is still a matter of opinion of how one perceives the arrangements to be experimental in their sense, for example East from the N.E.W.S album is right up there.

your zappa arguementa falls down on alot of points

Zappa never was THE biggest star on the planet thats what makes Prince's experimenting so utterly brave as well

ATWIAD is still possibly THE bravest move ever on his part

UTCM?? follow up to purple rain..utterly perverse.a black and white film set in the 30's????

Lovesexy?? naked on the cover and a paen to GOD??

Your also forgettng he needed Batman and diamonds and pearls bevcouse nots what often mentioned is as well as musician prince was a businessman with an empire who NEEDED money to keep that afloat

one man not a band like the rolling stones but this is one man whom is literally paying paisley park and all his employees

its a staggering burden

Graffitti bridge? brave (and utterly misguided)

symbol? how much more experimental do you want? that decsio alone warrents a whole thread.

THe internet decision? brave as fuck. news,trc,the war,crystall ball,the trurth etc etc

so the zappa/ellington comparisson is received wisdom and it gets filed under "27 instruments"

i would quite happily argue this cat has had the bravest and most experimental career of any major artist.ever.period.

zappa? come on (and i love me some zappa) but 99% of the pubic dont know zappa and off hand he had i think one top 30 hit?? wasnt it valley girl?