Tremolina said:

udo said:

You buy stuff.

Other people take the cheap bootleg and that's it.

I did not say all downloaders don't buy shit.

I did say that the free download spoils the market for Prince just as paid bootlegs do.

But Prince doesn't release the bootlegs himself

So?

He might do one day because his 'genius' runs out or for any other reason.

And he needs cash to sustain his lifestyle, his women, his park, etc.

And then people that do have the boots (paid or free) might decide not to buy his stuff because they already have it.

Yes, you might buy until you are broke.

Others won't.

udo said:

Tremolina said:

But Prince doesn't release the bootlegs himself

So?

He might do one day because his 'genius' runs out or for any other reason.

And he needs cash to sustain his lifestyle, his women, his park, etc.

And then people that do have the boots (paid or free) might decide not to buy his stuff because they already have it.

Yes, you might buy until you are broke.

Others won't.

Bootlegs are only interesting for hardcore fans who want everything. That's a relatively small group.

You can't make a fortune with outtake-releases or live-material, unless it's interesting for the casual fan. So a remastered Purple Rain album would sell well, and a DVD of that tour and maybe a DVD of a more recent "greatest hits"-tour as well, but everything else wouldn't be that succesful imho.

[Edited 2/4/12 3:32am]

udo said:

Tremolina said:

But Prince doesn't release the bootlegs himself

So?

He might do one day

Exactly. He might. Or he might not.

Facts is, a few exceptions provided, he doesn't. And from the exceptions that he did release, he made money. So where is his "loss"?

Tremolina said:

udo said:

So?

He might do one day

Exactly. He might. Or he might not.

Facts is, a few exceptions provided, he doesn't. And from the exceptions that he did release, he made money. So where is his "loss"?

Duh. That is the grey area that the whole music industry has been hunting for since KaZaa became the norm.

If I can freely download music, does a downloaded tune equal a lost sale?

Most certainly not.

But what is the fraction that would be a lost sale?

Exactly that depends on the type of fan.

Of course you will buy everything.

But someone else thinks of other stuff first.

udo said:

Tremolina said:

Exactly. He might. Or he might not.

Facts is, a few exceptions provided, he doesn't. And from the exceptions that he did release, he made money. So where is his "loss"?

Duh. That is the grey area that the whole music industry has been hunting for since KaZaa became the norm.

No it isn't. There is a huge difference between offcially sold and released music and unofficially released music not being sold. If you sell it yourself, it's obvious free downloads can cut into your market. But if you don't sell it yourself, there is nothing to cut in. It's only if and when Prince would actually seriously want to release the bootlegs himself one day, that bootlegs could "potentially" impact that future market. But he isn't or is he?

Ultimately all this doesn't matter, because bootlegs are simply illegal. Whether they are freely downloaded and negatively affect his sales or not.

[Edited 2/4/12 5:34am]

Tremolina said:

udo said:

Duh. That is the grey area that the whole music industry has been hunting for since KaZaa became the norm.

No it isn't. There is a huge difference between offcially sold and released music and unofficially released music not being sold. If you sell it yourself, it's obvious free downloads can cut into your market. But if you don't sell it yourself, there is nothing to cut in.

Now what type of argument is that?

Whether P sells it directly to us or not does not matter.

It will cut into his profit margin directly or indirectly.

It's only if and when Prince would actually seriously want to release the bootlegs himself one day, that bootlegs could "potentially" impact that future market.

Isn't that the same as I wrote above?

But he isn't or is he?

You never know.

Ultimately all this doesn't matter, because bootlegs are simply illegal. Whether they are freely downloaded and negatively affect his sales or not.

I don't think the illegal thing does matter here.

It's about a market's thirst. Legal status doesn't matter and you even touched on the ethics which make the illegality point even more moot.

udo said:

Tremolina said:

Exactly. He might. Or he might not.

Facts is, a few exceptions provided, he doesn't. And from the exceptions that he did release, he made money. So where is his "loss"?

Duh. That is the grey area that the whole music industry has been hunting for since KaZaa became the norm.

If I can freely download music, does a downloaded tune equal a lost sale?

Most certainly not.

But what is the fraction that would be a lost sale?

Exactly that depends on the type of fan.

Of course you will buy everything.

But someone else thinks of other stuff first.

And what is the fraction that becomes hooked on Prince because of the bootlegs and then buys official releases because they are a new fan?

Find me a fan who only collects free bootlegs and doesn't buy the official stuff. If you find any, you certainly won't find many.

It's a fact that those that collect Prince bootlegs are almost always the same fans that buy everything Prince releases.

The ONLY harm is Prince loses CONTROL of what we, the fans, get to hear. I, and many others, are fine with that.

djThunderfunk said:

udo said:

Duh. That is the grey area that the whole music industry has been hunting for since KaZaa became the norm.

If I can freely download music, does a downloaded tune equal a lost sale?

Most certainly not.

But what is the fraction that would be a lost sale?

Exactly that depends on the type of fan.

Of course you will buy everything.

But someone else thinks of other stuff first.

And what is the fraction that becomes hooked on Prince because of the bootlegs and then buys official releases because they are a new fan?

I guess mr P ignores those people.

The ONLY harm is Prince loses CONTROL of what we, the fans, get to hear. I, and many others, are fine with that.

I do think Mr P isn't fine with that.

Considering that for many of us, it is the same obsession which compels us to listen to bootlegs that compels us to purchase every release, Mr. P should be VERY fine with it.

djThunderfunk said:

Considering that for many of us, it is the same obsession which compels us to listen to bootlegs that compels us to purchase every release, Mr. P should be VERY fine with it.

Either you imply his core market is just the hardcore Prince fan, or you forget that the Prince-world is bigger than the freaks that line up hours before a show.

udo said:

Tremolina said:

You never know.

Ultimately all this doesn't matter, because bootlegs are simply illegal. Whether they are freely downloaded and negatively affect his sales or not.

I don't think the illegal thing does matter here.

It's about a market's thirst. Legal status doesn't matter and you even touched on the ethics which make the illegality point even more moot.

Of course legal status matters. One other thing you are forgetting is that Prince isn't selling anyhting (or hardly)

Tremolina said:

Of course legal status matters. One other thing you are forgetting is that Prince isn't selling anyhting (or hardly)

So he might turn to releasing some old live stuff to easily pocket some money...

(no, I am not holding my breath over this)

udo said:

djThunderfunk said:

Considering that for many of us, it is the same obsession which compels us to listen to bootlegs that compels us to purchase every release, Mr. P should be VERY fine with it.

Either you imply his core market is just the hardcore Prince fan, or you forget that the Prince-world is bigger than the freaks that line up hours before a show.

No, but, if you take the hardcore fans (the ones who buy everything) out of the loop, where would Prince be now.

Without us, how would Crystal Ball have worked out? In fact, how would the entire last 15 years worked out? Prince's career would be in a very different place without the hardcore fans. I know many casual fans that think that all he's done in that time are the Superbowl & the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame. Most haven't heard Musicology or 3121 let alone Rainbow Children or One Nite Alone, etc...

djThunderfunk said:

udo said:

Either you imply his core market is just the hardcore Prince fan, or you forget that the Prince-world is bigger than the freaks that line up hours before a show.

No, but, if you take the hardcore fans (the ones who buy everything) out of the loop, where would Prince be now.

Without us, how would Crystal Ball have worked out?

In fact, how would the entire last 15 years worked out? Prince's career would be in a very different place without the hardcore fans.

I know many casual fans that think that all he's done in that time are the Superbowl & the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame. Most haven't heard Musicology or 3121 let alone Rainbow Children or One Nite Alone, etc...

Now we are pretty much in agreement...

I'm just saying:

IMO the boots have helped him, regardless of the fact that he doesn't like them or those of us who trade & listen to them. He should embrace them... and us!

There is so much of Prince's work that is nearly impossiable to get. I would pay for it. But Finding it leagelly is the challenge.

Stealing from Prince without his permission: is it the right of entrepreneurs?

Praxis said:

Stealing from Prince without his permission: is it the right of entrepreneurs?

Entrepreneurs operate businesses for profit. This thread is about FREE bootlegs. It says so right in the title.

PANDURITO said:

I will agree when I meet someone who ONLY downloads not legally obtainable stuff

...Me. For one I have no idea how to download any files on the various websites out there(I know...Duhh!). Unfortuneately that means I have to buy copies of these from a vendor (sucks, but he keeps me informed of what's out there, gives me a good deal, and weeds out the crap). I'm sure I'm in the minority or maybe the only one who does this, but I still continue to buy P's official releases via cd, dvd, or iTunes.

Even if I could get a free DL of a new release, I'd still buy it from P himself. He deserves a lot more than what I've paid for his music over the years. Just estimating, but from all the cd's, dvd's, tapes, vinyl, singles, concerts...etc, I've bought...Prince (or his various record co's) has received less than a third of what I've paid for his music. That was unheard of 25 yrs ago. I don't know how any artist can survive today without pimping themselves out to tv ads and the like, if we all download their official releases.

XNY said:

PANDURITO said:

I will agree when I meet someone who ONLY downloads not legally obtainable stuff

...Me. For one I have no idea how to download any files on the various websites out there(I know...Duhh!). Unfortuneately that means I have to buy copies of these from a vendor (sucks, but he keeps me informed of what's out there, gives me a good deal, and weeds out the crap). I'm sure I'm in the minority or maybe the only one who does this, but I still continue to buy P's official releases via cd, dvd, or iTunes.

Even if I could get a free DL of a new release, I'd still buy it from P himself. He deserves a lot more than what I've paid for his music over the years. Just estimating, but from all the cd's, dvd's, tapes, vinyl, singles, concerts...etc, I've bought...Prince (or his various record co's) has received less than a third of what I've paid for his music. That was unheard of 25 yrs ago. I don't know how any artist can survive today without pimping themselves out to tv ads and the like, if we all download their official releases.

Most of us who download Prince's bootlegs for free have and will contue to buy his official releases. Downloading free boots has, for some of us, kept us interested enough to keep the obession going.

i have no opinion of this. i am not Prince and I am not those who make money off of his music illegally.

but i see it in different ways...2 many 2 list at once. but ...

- should the rule of law be respect? if not, should bootleggers become a lobby force in governments around the world demanding that artists allow every1 to sell their music - perhaps on negotiated terms?

-

im sure he gets a kick out of all the controversy

djThunderfunk said:

Now we are pretty much in agreement...

I'm just saying:

IMO the boots have helped him, regardless of the fact that he doesn't like them or those of us who trade & listen to them. He should embrace them... and us!

I do think the sheeple are bigger in numbers and they are the ones that dig the hits over and over and over and again.

The front area on the floor is only so big but that is where the freaks are.

Are you seriously implying that these people, small in number, keep him afloat?

udo said:

djThunderfunk said:

Now we are pretty much in agreement...

I'm just saying:

IMO the boots have helped him, regardless of the fact that he doesn't like them or those of us who trade & listen to them. He should embrace them... and us!

I do think the sheeple are bigger in numbers and they are the ones that dig the hits over and over and over and again.

The front area on the floor is only so big but that is where the freaks are.

Are you seriously implying that these people, small in number, keep him afloat?

I've been a fan since '82, seen him live 8 times, and NEVER had seats that good. The front area on the floor is for the freaks with lots of money. There are plenty of freaks on a budget spread out across the arena.

I am seriously implying that those of us that buy every release are the same people that keep him afloat when the mainstream ignores him. And, very often, we're also the ones that collect bootlegs.

If I could ignore temptation to download for free a bootleg that other fans are raving about, I would be able to ignore the impulse to buy releases like the Dance 4 Me single even though I don't like any of the mixes other than the album version. As it stands, I bought that single for the collection because I buy every release. There's no way I'm passing up the newest boot and ignoring all the praise. Can't do it...

djThunderfunk said:

Praxis said:

Stealing from Prince without his permission: is it the right of entrepreneurs?

Entrepreneurs operate businesses for profit. This thread is about FREE bootlegs. It says so right in the title.

free for the entrepreneur who makes money off of something he did not create. in an independent artist's case, like Prince...who pays the bills for his own releases, free has awkward meaning. In other words, Prince "run Paisley Park, but allow us to have and sell your music, without your permission, as we wish"

?

Praxis said:

djThunderfunk said:

Entrepreneurs operate businesses for profit. This thread is about FREE bootlegs. It says so right in the title.

free for the entrepreneur who makes money off of something he did not create. in an independent artist's case, like Prince...who pays the bills for his own releases, free has awkward meaning. In other words, Prince "run Paisley Park, but allow us to have and sell your music, without your permission, as we wish"

?

You're talking about boots that are printed, sold, purchased.

I'm talking about boots put together by fans, uploaded, downloaded by fans. No selling.

Related but different topics. No?

bootleggers = devil gives u what u want ....He gives u what u need