Of course we'd all like to one day see the songs in Prince's infamous vault released in pristine quality but we know that will most likely never happen. The reason most share is that Prince doesn't want to dwell in the past but I have another theory.

Maybe Prince doesn't view his vault as a library of forgotten songs but rather as a library of viable song ideas. We've seen how over the years he's remixed, revised and/or re-recorded older songs for a new release -- in fact we never know for certain just how "new" any new song is. Take a song like Dreamer (BTW I have no idea when it was actually written, this is just a supposition):

• If we find out it was based on say the unheard 1980 song "Plastic Love Affair" (again I have no reason to believe this is true) -- we're cool with that.
• If we first hear "Plastic Love Affair" after "Dreamer" is released -- we're still cool.
• But if Prince releases "Plastic Love Affair" first and then puts out "Dreamer", or worse yet he records additional songs based on "Plastic Love Affair", most of us would cry heresy

I imagine in addition to completed songs and demos within the vault, there are many musical and production experiments that he captured spur-of-the-moment to be used in the future, but were never intended to be songs on their own.

All told if my little theory is right (or even partially right), as much as I'd love to hear everything, I don't blame him at all for keeping the vault securely locked; why reveal all the ideas and sketches that are the basis of his profession for years to come? Thoughts?

It doesn't help that so many of his better tracks have leaked out via bootlegs. When he does take them out and give them a bit of polish, we all cry out that we liked the original version better. Being a perfectionist, he probably feels many of these tracks are not up to snuff, so he can't bear the thought of releasing them "as is". This becomes problematic when we already know what it sounds like "as is".

Take, for example, a song like "Old Friends For Sale". Most fans feel the original arrangement with the original lyrics is far superior to the released track. If we had never heard the original via bootleg, we might have a different outlook on it though.

Add in the fact that many folks will just take the stance of "eh, I already have these songs", then you can see why he's hesitant. He probably feels it's best to leave well enough alone in most cases. Still, I DO think he's missed a great opportunity over the years by not releasing the bulk of the previously bootlegged material. His NPG Music Club and Lotusflow3r clubs could have been an outlet to get this material into fans hands in an official way, while making money in the process. We all know this, unfortunately, didn't happen. P is often focused on the "now", and doesn't like to look back. This can be a good thing for an artist, but it becomes rather limiting when he has such an incredible bulk of fantastic material that has never been officially released. The one bright spot is, with him revisiting tracks like "In a Large Room With No Light" and "Extra Loveable", that he IS looking into his vault again. Perhaps one day he'll say "duck it" and release a whole bunch of hidden treasures as is. I just won't hold my breath.

I see your point Jedi and agree for the most part. Where we disagree in opinion is that I think he's always looking through the vault for ideas. On the Planet Earth & Lotusflower albums some tracks date back to the 3121 sessions; "U're Gonna See Me" was nearly a decade old when it came out on 20Ten; "The Dance" from 3121 was originally part of The Chocolate Invasion, and so on. Not just songs but the unreleased albums Dream Factory, Camille, Rave (1988 version, even it contained a song from 1982) and Crystal Ball provided material for albums to come.

My original point was that we as fans see his vault as a treasure of songs he could profitably release as is, but I wonder if Prince views the vault's value more as a continual source of new ideas for future songs. Release a vault song as is and that's the end; keep the song locked away but pilfer it to create several new songs and he's a prolific genius.

A couple things...

The Vault probably doesn't have as many completed releasable songs as we think. Few completed B side worthy songs he never found room for, or songs he decided the public wasn't ready for.

He probably is moving forward recording new songs at such a pace that he forgets what's in there...and years later goes "oh yeah, I had that song I was working on". Years fly by and he's probably not focused or excited by the piecemeal recordings from past sessions, but Prince is unlikely to think he ever had a bad idea, ever. So the stuff will get recycled eventually. If he really cuts down on recording new songs, we can expect he'll dust off and "fix" a lot of goodies, like he did Extraloveable.

This might apply to a small number of songs, but in general most likely not.

The most likely reason is probably it's just not a priority, beneficial or even viable to release everything. I think it's a pipe dream that everything could be ever released - I'm sure sooner or later there will be more Crystal Ball type releases, or remasters with bonus tracks, it's pretty much inevitable - especially after, you know, he goes to see Jehovah in person - but it won't be every alt. take of every track.

Dropping everything on a website and saying 'Have at it guys! 99c a track!' - That mystique of "The Vault" is gone. Putting out a 'Roadhouse Garden' type project is much more realistic and still keeps that mystique.

You could also hazzard a guess that putting out classic era material brings comparison to his current output - and that might be a bit of an ego-bruiser. As a fan, Prince's insistence that the past was then, and now is what's important always struck me as wide open to psychoanalysis - you know, the fancy lesbian doth protest too much and all that. The past is over and gone, or there's something there you'd rather not deal with? (Personally, or career-wise).

I don't think we're quite at the final chapter yet though - I think fears of "The Vault" staying shut forever, or it being destroyed, or Prince self-censoring or whatever are a bit premature. I think the simple answer is he's just keeping this ace, along with remasters etc, up his sleeve till he needs to play it.

Who know's if there really is a "vvault"? We could just be making this up. Maybe Prince is releasing all of it..

aardvark15 said:

Who know's if there really is a "vvault"? We could just be making this up. Maybe Prince is releasing all of it..

say the fuck what????

I might sound like an elitist here, but when people say "maybe there isn't a vault" or "maybe we've already heard most of it", it's pretty obvious that they know very little about Prince's recording history.

Yes, there is a vault, and yes, there are (at the very least) hundreds of songs in there that haven't even been leaked in ANY form. The evidence is there from studio tracking sheets. A lot of this information can be found in both "DMSR" and "The Vault" - and of course, Prince being Prince, there are plenty more songs that he has recorded at Paisley Park, on his own, without even an engineer being present, that there is simply no documentation of. If you start including alternate versions, remixes, edits with different arrangements, tracks that have been re-done various times over the years, the numbers jump up even higher.

As Nouveau says, it just simply isn't a priority. Why would it be - Prince is still recording as much as he always has. Between new studio releases, which are more or less as regular as they've always been, and non-stop touring - there's very little time for him to focus on "looking back" at what's in the vault or making any concrete plans to do anything with any of it's contents.

Militant said:

I might sound like an elitist here, but when people say "maybe there isn't a vault" or "maybe we've already heard most of it", it's pretty obvious that they know very little about Prince's recording history.

Yes, there is a vault, and yes, there are (at the very least) hundreds of songs in there that haven't even been leaked in ANY form. The evidence is there from studio tracking sheets. A lot of this information can be found in both "DMSR" and "The Vault" - and of course, Prince being Prince, there are plenty more songs that he has recorded at Paisley Park, on his own, without even an engineer being present, that there is simply no documentation of. If you start including alternate versions, remixes, edits with different arrangements, tracks that have been re-done various times over the years, the numbers jump up even higher.

As Nouveau says, it just simply isn't a priority. Why would it be - Prince is still recording as much as he always has. Between new studio releases, which are more or less as regular as they've always been, and non-stop touring - there's very little time for him to focus on "looking back" at what's in the vault or making any concrete plans to do anything with any of it's contents.

NouveauDance said:

I'm sure sooner or later there will be more Crystal Ball type releases, or remasters with bonus tracks, it's pretty much inevitable - especially after, you know, he goes to see Jehovah in person - but it won't be every alt. take of every track.

I know he's only 53, but hopefully he releases what's in the vault before he 'goes to see Jehovah' because posthumous albums rarely go well. But it is possible that we could get tons of alternate takes.. they've been doing that with Elvis for a long time.

Prince is now a Jehovahs witness. He believes he will be resurrected to eternal life on Earth. Maybe he's keeping vault material for that time?

NouveauDance said:

I don't think we're quite at the final chapter yet though - I think fears of "The Vault" staying shut forever, or it being destroyed, or Prince self-censoring or whatever are a bit premature. I think the simple answer is he's just keeping this ace, along with remasters etc, up his sleeve till he needs to play it.

Sounds fair and logical. But is it? When is the time to play that ace? When the game is done already and you still haven't played it...

I stopped caring about what's in the vault.We have plenty of bootlegs already and I really do believe that we have heard "the cream of the crop".I doubt that there are alot of amazing,high-quality tracks like "When Doves Cry" collecting dust in those vaults

... great thread. Mmm, I think I can stop calling myself a newbie as a admirer of P's music / lyrics. I have a TON of the UN-released music and some video and I would love to see more and hear more. I don't care if it's in the original format being released to us or not. I just want it.

Again ... GREAT thread ( one of the many reasons I love p.org ).

if u listen 2 what prince said he has opened the vault 4 the intended purpose on why he created he just not opening it the way we want it. he said the vault was created for future purposes like now to pull songs and make cd 2 not have 2 record new music .so basically all he has to do is polish up a few songs 2 make it fit now and boom u got a cd

cbarnes3121 said:

if u listen 2 what prince said he has opened the vault 4 the intended purpose on why he created he just not opening it the way we want it. he said the vault was created for future purposes like now to pull songs and make cd 2 not have 2 record new music .so basically all he has to do is polish up a few songs 2 make it fit now and boom u got a cd

True. He has been doing that since forever. Like Rave e.g

Genesia had the best reasoning why a few months back.

Just maybe there all a bunch of half arsed ideas that were a bit shit back in the day.

The whole Vault theory is probably more quantity over quality and best left to the imagination if im honest.

Just my opinion hope im wrong

And for yall who are talking that we have probably heard the best of the vault already or that the other items we have not heard may not be even worth the toruble of listening to quality-wise etc..you dont know wtf you are tlaking about.

rdhull said:

And for yall who are talking that we have probably heard the best of the vault already or that the other items we have not heard may not be even worth the toruble of listening to quality-wise etc..you dont know wtf you are tlaking about.

that is of course just your opinion!....as you have absolutely no evidence to back up your theory.

The one thing we all have in common is that, we all don't know wtf were talking about.

funkmunki said:

rdhull said:

And for yall who are talking that we have probably heard the best of the vault already or that the other items we have not heard may not be even worth the toruble of listening to quality-wise etc..you dont know wtf you are tlaking about.

that is of course just your opinion!....as you have absolutely no evidence to back up your theory.

The one thing we all have in common is that, we all don't know wtf were talking about.

WRONG

alphachannel said:

I see your point Jedi and agree for the most part. Where we disagree in opinion is that I think he's always looking through the vault for ideas. On the Planet Earth & Lotusflower albums some tracks date back to the 3121 sessions; "U're Gonna See Me" was nearly a decade old when it came out on 20Ten; "The Dance" from 3121 was originally part of The Chocolate Invasion, and so on. Not just songs but the unreleased albums Dream Factory, Camille, Rave (1988 version, even it contained a song from 1982) and Crystal Ball provided material for albums to come.

My original point was that we as fans see his vault as a treasure of songs he could profitably release as is, but I wonder if Prince views the vault's value more as a continual source of new ideas for future songs. Release a vault song as is and that's the end; keep the song locked away but pilfer it to create several new songs and he's a prolific genius.

You bring up some really good points, and I agree. He's certainly pulled tracks from "The Vault" several times over the years, and recent activity would seem to indicate that he plans to continue to do so for some time to come.

As for those saying there is no evidence that P even has a vault, that simply isn't true. Several folks, including those as trustworthy as Wendy & Lisa and Eric Leeds have discussed it in the past, and stated that they felt that some of his best stuff was gathering dust in there.

rdhull said:

funkmunki said:

that is of course just your opinion!....as you have absolutely no evidence to back up your theory.

The one thing we all have in common is that, we all don't know wtf were talking about.

WRONG

[img:$uid]http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc404/funkmunki/tumblr_lpn29qI5Fg1qffb31o2_500.gif[/img:$uid]

NouveauDance said:

This might apply to a small number of songs, but in general most likely not.

The most likely reason is probably it's just not a priority, beneficial or even viable to release everything. I think it's a pipe dream that everything could be ever released - I'm sure sooner or later there will be more Crystal Ball type releases, or remasters with bonus tracks, it's pretty much inevitable - especially after, you know, he goes to see Jehovah in person - but it won't be every alt. take of every track.

Dropping everything on a website and saying 'Have at it guys! 99c a track!' - That mystique of "The Vault" is gone. Putting out a 'Roadhouse Garden' type project is much more realistic and still keeps that mystique.

You could also hazzard a guess that putting out classic era material brings comparison to his current output - and that might be a bit of an ego-bruiser. As a fan, Prince's insistence that the past was then, and now is what's important always struck me as wide open to psychoanalysis - you know, the fancy lesbian doth protest too much and all that. The past is over and gone, or there's something there you'd rather not deal with? (Personally, or career-wise).

I don't think we're quite at the final chapter yet though - I think fears of "The Vault" staying shut forever, or it being destroyed, or Prince self-censoring or whatever are a bit premature. I think the simple answer is he's just keeping this ace, along with remasters etc, up his sleeve till he needs to play it.

I can agree with P's Vault being his ace. This is really what is setting him apart from other artists. I remember hearing a rumor in late '89 that P had 25 finished albums (graphics and all) setting in the Vault. Like I said a rumor. I do believe he has a vast amount of tracks, not all gems. Some work in progress or as he said in his interview with Mojo, dropping the toothbrush to record a track (paraphrased). Regardless, the whole Vault, in my opinion, will not be open. I am sure tracks will be released along the lines of Tupac's albums upon his death.

In regards to boots, just as guilty as the next, of owning. Unlike the mass public, I would purchase tracks officially released even if I have them in perfect quality on a boot. However, I think Prince feed, partially, the market for tracks on boots, to help build his mystique on the Vault and credit his tracks and high output in recording. Off course, no proof, just my opinion.

Lastly, I think the OP has a good theory, one that deserves discussion. Noveaudance is also on point. Wether P believes the past is just that is speculation. Many tracks recorded in 1982, a highly creative period, were later released on other projects, even to date. I think the recent releases that have been reworked show that P is always "tinkering" with tracks, that perhaps he feels were not captured with the essence he desired.

alphachannel said:

Of course we'd all like to one day see the songs in Prince's infamous vault released in pristine quality but we know that will most likely never happen. The reason most share is that Prince doesn't want to dwell in the past but I have another theory.

Maybe Prince doesn't view his vault as a library of forgotten songs but rather as a library of viable song ideas. We've seen how over the years he's remixed, revised and/or re-recorded older songs for a new release -- in fact we never know for certain just how "new" any new song is. Take a song like Dreamer (BTW I have no idea when it was actually written, this is just a supposition):

• If we find out it was based on say the unheard 1980 song "Plastic Love Affair" (again I have no reason to believe this is true) -- we're cool with that.
• If we first hear "Plastic Love Affair" after "Dreamer" is released -- we're still cool.
• But if Prince releases "Plastic Love Affair" first and then puts out "Dreamer", or worse yet he records additional songs based on "Plastic Love Affair", most of us would cry heresy

I imagine in addition to completed songs and demos within the vault, there are many musical and production experiments that he captured spur-of-the-moment to be used in the future, but were never intended to be songs on their own.

All told if my little theory is right (or even partially right), as much as I'd love to hear everything, I don't blame him at all for keeping the vault securely locked; why reveal all the ideas and sketches that are the basis of his profession for years to come? Thoughts?

I think what u say about people's reactions 2 updated outtakes is, sadly, true...

Ur theory about the vault is an interesting one and, as said above, worth discussing. I'm quite astonished that no journalist has ever (to my knowledge) asked about WHY he keeps so much material unreleased, unless it's in the "don't ask" list that's known to be given to every journalist innerviewing him (I wish I could read that list ).

My theory is that, 4 one thing, wants 2 make a point that he lives in the present but it's not the only think. I think that, 4 the most part, he is aware that the more he waits, the more valuable the material is. C'mon, remember when Crystal Ball was released: it may have been disappointing in the sense that many Come/Gold era tracks had already been released in one form or another but nonetheless it was an interesting collection and... the world didn't give a shit about it back then!!! NO ONE fucking cared save us fans! I guess that was a valuable lesson 4 Prince: until he has become an real icon (which is now starting 2 happen) it's stupid to waste such a valuable material 4 a small number of hardcore fans only. I might be wrong but it's likely, IMHO, that he will release all that stuff one day, when he is convinced that there will be enough media coverage about "the legendary Prince opening his mythic vault at last". Another thing is that a proper archive program can't really be done before starts rereleasing his classic albums, which he won't do before he can get them out of WB's claws. So I wouldn't expect nothing serious before another 5 or 10 years... One usually becomes a real legend of modern music after he/she's 60 years-old.

But maybe I'm wrong and he gave specific instructions that everything must be destroyed after he dies, and we'll never get nothing but a few more songs out of his unreleased catalogue (God wouldn't THAT be the drama of all times?!).

So wait and see...

funkmunki said:

rdhull said:

WRONG

[img:$uid]http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc404/funkmunki/tumblr_lpn29qI5Fg1qffb31o2_500.gif[/img:$uid]

rdhull said:

And for yall who are talking that we have probably heard the best of the vault already or that the other items we have not heard may not be even worth the toruble of listening to quality-wise etc..you dont know wtf you are tlaking about.

It doesn't matter anyway since,most likely,we won't be hearing all that music.

SoulAlive said:

rdhull said:

And for yall who are talking that we have probably heard the best of the vault already or that the other items we have not heard may not be even worth the toruble of listening to quality-wise etc..you dont know wtf you are tlaking about.

It doesn't matter anyway since,most likely,we won't be hearing all that music.

^^ 10 year habit of moving the goal post

I think some of the demos would be good if he was to do a "making of" or a Deluxe Edition. There might be a time he'll get into the process of how he created some of the songs, for all we know he's already filmed them..