In other words, what if Prince had the freedom to release music whenever and however he felt back during the Warner years. On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

However, if he could put out albums and songs as they came to him would there have been more albums on just longer albums (multiple record sets)? More non-album singles and EPs? Maybe more albums under the "Prince" name as opposed to the protege releases?

To answer the question directly, Prince had already released everything that "he wanted to". The other aspect I'm thinking about from ur question is the dirtier material, but whatev, he did what he felt at the time and that was that.

ecstasy said:

To answer the question directly, Prince had already released everything that "he wanted to". The other aspect I'm thinking about from ur question is the dirtier material, but whatev, he did what he felt at the time and that was that.

I would actually say he didn't release everything he wanted to

like he wanted to release the Crystal Ball 3 cd, but he couldn't

there are songs he wanted released but opted for another songs weither it be for space or some other factor

OldFriends4Sale said:

ecstasy said:

To answer the question directly, Prince had already released everything that "he wanted to". The other aspect I'm thinking about from ur question is the dirtier material, but whatev, he did what he felt at the time and that was that.

I would actually say he didn't release everything he wanted to

like he wanted to release the Crystal Ball 3 cd, but he couldn't

there are songs he wanted released but opted for another songs weither it be for space or some other factor

Nice point, I was thinking more towards the early 80s

alphachannel said:

In other words, what if Prince had the freedom to release music whenever and however he felt back during the Warner years. On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

However, if he could put out albums and songs as they came to him would there have been more albums on just longer albums (multiple record sets)? More non-album singles and EPs? Maybe more albums under the "Prince" name as opposed to the protege releases?

I believe the protege releases still would have happened because in the 1980's Prince had a 'vision' Uptown / Erotic City / Paisley Park and the proteges were 'characters' in these places. It's why 1999 What Time Is It & Vanity 6 was such a hot year era tour same with the Parade era which would have been even hotter if the Family stayed in tact

the Purple Rain era definately would have been much bigger if the original Time was intact and Vanity 6 remained. + Sheila E joining

I think had Sign O the Times been released as Crystal Ball it would not be seen as classic it seen as today. The Black Album as a normal release would not be seen as great either while both are good the myth of them are better than the actual product.

Had Prince had at least took Mazarati and the Family on tour during Parade I think they both would have become huge as well

alphachannel said:

In other words, what if Prince had the freedom to release music whenever and however he felt back during the Warner years. On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

However, if he could put out albums and songs as they came to him would there have been more albums on just longer albums (multiple record sets)? More non-album singles and EPs? Maybe more albums under the "Prince" name as opposed to the protege releases?

You are mistaken: except for Crystal Ball, Prince DID release everything he wanted to, exactly as he wanted to.

WB's only (few) other interferences, as far as I remember, were:

- Asking him to ADD songs twice (a pop track to the album that became 1999, and Gett Off to Diamonds And Pearls).

- Asking for Jam, Lewis and Johnson to be involved in what became Pandemonium in 1989.

- Supporting Ingrid Chavez' wish to sing on some tracks of her album in 1990 (Prince wanted it to be spoken word only).

- Refusing a first configuration of Carmen Electra in 1992.

- And, last but not least as Prince considered it an act of war, refusing to release Gold Nigga in 1993 (and then the war started and that's when WB really started to declined to release -or let Prince release independently- mots of stuff).

It is a very common misconception that WB had a real influence on Prince's discography in the 80's but actually, they basically just left him alone and released whatever he would provide, including Paisley Park side-projects no one would buy and a black album that they then had to pull-off and replace by an album they didn't believe in, when all they actually wanted was to continue promoting Sign "O" The Times. They also disagreed MANY times on the choice of singles, but Prince always had the last word in the end.

[Edited 12/21/11 6:09am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

ecstasy said:

To answer the question directly, Prince had already released everything that "he wanted to". The other aspect I'm thinking about from ur question is the dirtier material, but whatev, he did what he felt at the time and that was that.

I would actually say he didn't release everything he wanted to

like he wanted to release the Crystal Ball 3 cd, but he couldn't

there are songs he wanted released but opted for another songs weither it be for space or some other factor

You know your Prince history.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would actually say he didn't release everything he wanted to

Right. He pretty much had carte blanche, which is why a lot of people were 'wtf' at his feud with WB.

NouveauDance said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would actually say he didn't release everything he wanted to

Right. He pretty much had carte blanche, which is why a lot of people were 'wtf' at his feud with WB.

For sure WB had the right to veto some of the stuff he offered them. For some time they hardly used it, but they definitly used it for Crystal ball. Which by all means pissed Prince off to no ends. Then they pampered him, that's what happened.

They are partly responsible for Prince becoming the way he is. Letting him retract the Black album, offering him Batman to get out of a financial mess and an absurd "100 million dollar" deal. Letting him lose money on all kinds of "side projects" and doing/saying all kinds of kooky stuff. (the movie GB, buttless pants at MTV awards, changing his name, declaring Prince dead etc.)

Yet, they always saw him as a cashcow they owned, because he really was. He made so much money for them with his records. But when they started giving him all these ridiculous advances, he HAD to sell millions of albums to fullfill their expectations. And he never owned his records nor was he free to release elsewhere or on his own. So he made himself out to be their "slave".

Which in a sense was true. Like a money and fame slave.

[Edited 12/21/11 7:38am]

Don't forget the single Prince wanted to release upon his initial signing with Warner's or the dance single which turned into I think, Let's Work.

I think, from what I've read Prince had offered a lot to Warner, but cancelled the projects (i.e. Black Album and Camille) to name a couple.

I think the 100 million deal messed up the relations, along with management change at Warner.

Warner wanted to recoup the investment. I know D&P is in the '90s, but didn't they want a different track than Gett Off? Schoolyar?

Back to the '80s, the only restrictions I can think of is the 3LP Crystal Ball. For fans, it would have been killer, mass public, maybe not as successful as SOTT. We would never know.

I believe Prince had more release power then than he wanted to admit.

I just don't follow his complaint, he wanted to release more but was restricted by Warner, but now he is free, he has released less.

Part of the game.

nelcp777 said:

Don't forget the single Prince wanted to release upon his initial signing with Warner's or the dance single which turned into I think, Let's Work.

I think, from what I've read Prince had offered a lot to Warner, but cancelled the projects (i.e. Black Album and Camille) to name a couple.

I think the 100 million deal messed up the relations, along with management change at Warner.

Warner wanted to recoup the investment. I know D&P is in the '90s, but didn't they want a different track than Gett Off? Schoolyar?

Back to the '80s, the only restrictions I can think of is the 3LP Crystal Ball. For fans, it would have been killer, mass public, maybe not as successful as SOTT. We would never know.

I believe Prince had more release power then than he wanted to admit.

I just don't follow his complaint, he wanted to release more but was restricted by Warner, but now he is free, he has released less.

Part of the game.

The management change argument isn't sound, nor is the release restrictions argument. As was pointed out already, those restrictions were there in the 80's too. Plus the people at Wb he worked with in the 80's were known to be leaving, or had already left by the early 90's.

The 100M contract coupled to the merger/takeover of WB by Time, did raise the company's expectations and demands for him to be profitable and thus maximise sales. More than before and for a very long time to come still, considering the deal entailed at least 7 albums, including a greatest hits package, that WB wanted to milk as much and long as possible....

I think P realised very early on already, that he had made a mistake and that he had to set that mistake straight, before his soul was sold for good (just look at the seringe filled with money on the "contractual obligation" Chaos&Disorder and his heart flushed down the toilet...)

[Edited 12/31/11 6:44am]

DecaturStone said:

I think had Sign O the Times been released as Crystal Ball it would not be seen as classic it seen as today. The Black Album as a normal release would not be seen as great either while both are good the myth of them are better than the actual product.

Had Prince had at least took Mazarati and the Family on tour during Parade I think they both would have become huge as well

That's a hard call about the Crystal Ball project, the same songs would have been on just more and Prince 'hopefully' would have promoted this one better than SOTT, because it's the one he wanted. I like many other fans feel 'cheated' because of his attitude about SOTT

I agree with the mythos about the Black Album non-release

But since he release it in 1994, we still get 'cheated out'

What could have been cool would still 'non' release the Black album but make videos and do some impromtu raw shows (not concerts) shows at place like 1st Avenue and venues around the country & in Europe, that would have added to the undergroundness of the album

I agree if Mazarati & the Family toured with him (and I'll add were somehow in the movie) it would have made the porjects bigger, along with the Parade album Jill Jones mia bocca and Sheila e

Prince's acting did win over with Purple Rain it was the performances and everything else on the side boosted it. Under the Cherry Moon should have been filled with performances.

I saw the trailer again not so long ago, and it looked really exciting, by the way it looked I was lead to believe the band would be performing in the movie

alphachannel said:

On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

this. End thread

the CD-era (14-16 tracks, with segues) killed Prince. It's telling that his best 90s albums are relatively short (Come, 9 songs, and TGE, 12 songs)

JoeTyler said:

alphachannel said:

On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

this. End thread

the CD-era (14-16 tracks, with segues) killed Prince. It's telling that his best 90s albums are relatively short (Come, 9 songs, and TGE, 12 songs)

I said the exact thing the other day. However, I did not say that the (length of the) CD "killed Prince". lol (more like his contract did)

I did say it "killed the music industry". Jokingly, but truthfully also, because all that filler was only meant to bank as much as possible, on consumer and artist's expense.

Tremolina said:

JoeTyler said:

this. End thread

the CD-era (14-16 tracks, with segues) killed Prince. It's telling that his best 90s albums are relatively short (Come, 9 songs, and TGE, 12 songs)

I said the exact thing the other day. However, I did not say that the (length of the) CD "killed Prince". lol (more like his contract did)

I did say it "killed the music industry". Jokingly, but truthfully also, because all that filler was only meant to bank as much as possible, on consumer and artist's expense.

The funny thing is how almost everyone now comes back to 45 mn long albums: most of the albums I downloaded from 2010 and 2011 were around 45 mn.

databank said:

Tremolina said:

I said the exact thing the other day. However, I did not say that the (length of the) CD "killed Prince". lol (more like his contract did)

I did say it "killed the music industry". Jokingly, but truthfully also, because all that filler was only meant to bank as much as possible, on consumer and artist's expense.

The funny thing is how almost everyone now comes back to 45 mn long albums: most of the albums I downloaded from 2010 and 2011 were around 45 mn.

More like bitter. And a bit too late.

Tremolina said:

The 100M contract coupled to the merger/takeover of WB by Time, did raise the company's expectations and demands for him to be profitable and thus maximise sales. More than before and for a very long time to come still, considering the deal entailed at least 7 albums, including a greatest hits package, that WB wanted to milk as much and long as possible....

I'd like to know more about that CONTRACT...

tritoncin said:

Tremolina said:

The 100M contract coupled to the merger/takeover of WB by Time, did raise the company's expectations and demands for him to be profitable and thus maximise sales. More than before and for a very long time to come still, considering the deal entailed at least 7 albums, including a greatest hits package, that WB wanted to milk as much and long as possible....

I'd like to know more about that CONTRACT...

It's highly documented if u search, but IIRC the idea was that P would get that much money only if each of the 6 albums would sell 5M copies, which is of course unthinkable if u release a new album every year. Below 5M, WB had the right to pay less money for the next album, which was what happened with the first post-contract album "", and of course P blamed WB for not promoting the album properly and that was the beginning of the end...

Check scififilmnerds's threads, they're an amazing document about the whole fiasco: http://prince.org/profile/scififilmnerd

OldFriends4Sale said:

alphachannel said:

In other words, what if Prince had the freedom to release music whenever and however he felt back during the Warner years. On one hand maybe the albums were better because he was forced to pick the best tracks to fit within a 45:00 album.

However, if he could put out albums and songs as they came to him would there have been more albums on just longer albums (multiple record sets)? More non-album singles and EPs? Maybe more albums under the "Prince" name as opposed to the protege releases?

I believe the protege releases still would have happened because in the 1980's Prince had a 'vision' Uptown / Erotic City / Paisley Park and the proteges were 'characters' in these places. It's why 1999 What Time Is It & Vanity 6 was such a hot year era tour same with the Parade era which would have been even hotter if the Family stayed in tact

the Purple Rain era definitely would have been much bigger if the original Time was intact and Vanity 6 remained. + Sheila E joining

You brought up a good point OF4S, the protege releases where a lot of the music P was attempting to put out when he was writing so prolifically back then ( and possibly now ). Unless I'm wrong. I just sat here and thought about that for the moment. You had The Family, The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6 and who-ever I missed. THAT was the music ...

PurpleLove7 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I believe the protege releases still would have happened because in the 1980's Prince had a 'vision' Uptown / Erotic City / Paisley Park and the proteges were 'characters' in these places. It's why 1999 What Time Is It & Vanity 6 was such a hot year era tour same with the Parade era which would have been even hotter if the Family stayed in tact

the Purple Rain era definitely would have been much bigger if the original Time was intact and Vanity 6 remained. + Sheila E joining

You brought up a good point OF4S, the protege releases where a lot of the music P was attempting to put out when he was writing so prolifically back then ( and possibly now ). Unless I'm wrong. I just sat here and thought about that for the moment. You had The Family, The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6 and who-ever I missed. THAT was the music ...

What Warner feared about Prince releasing too much material injudiciously certainly came to light with Paisley Park Records. I wish he'd kept his focus on the (in my opinion) stars of his stable -- Sheila, The Family, Mazarati, Jill Jones, Madhouse -- and spent less effort (or none at all) on the other acts. Maybe if he'd taken an approach more like Jam & Lewis' Flyte Time Productions...

alphachannel said:

PurpleLove7 said:

You brought up a good point OF4S, the protege releases where a lot of the music P was attempting to put out when he was writing so prolifically back then ( and possibly now ). Unless I'm wrong. I just sat here and thought about that for the moment. You had The Family, The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6 and who-ever I missed. THAT was the music ...

What Warner feared about Prince releasing too much material injudiciously certainly came to light with Paisley Park Records. I wish he'd kept his focus on the (in my opinion) stars of his stable -- Sheila, The Family, Mazarati, Jill Jones, Madhouse -- and spent less effort (or none at all) on the other acts. Maybe if he'd taken an approach more like Jam & Lewis' Flyte Time Productions...

But... that's exactly what he did! Besides his own side-projects, Prince had almost no involvement in the other Paisley Park albums, save giving some of the artists songs from the vault, leaving them the task to rerecord the vocal tracks.

He had nothing or very little to do with the albums released by Mazarati, Taja Sevelle, Good Question, Dale, George Clinton, Tony LeMans, Kahoru Kohiruimaki, Three O'Clock, T.C. Ellis and Eric Leeds (yeah I know, he's all over Times Squared, but basically he gave Eric songs from the vault and told him to do whatever he wanted with them)... And despite heavy songwriting credits, he also didn't do much on Mavis Staples' second album, and had no involvement on most of what ended-up on Pandemonium

The only (released) PP albums he really put a lot of time and energy in were The Family, Romance 1600, 8, 16, Jill Jones, Time Waits For No One and Carmen Electra. I guess you could add Sheila E. and the Ingrid Chavez album to the list, since he was behind half of each, but it's not that much anyway...

[Edited 1/6/12 3:55am]