Who knows? They're here now ain't they?

Timmy84 said:

Timmy84 said:

Who knows? They're here now ain't they?

What?...I'm not sure to which person's statement you're replying.

as john lennon once said..'' you need to be bastards to make it and the beatles were the biggest bastards of them all '' ...prince has always been a control freak..stubborn...hard headed and sometimes cruel...but to make it as big as he did...you need to be focused and ready to make difficult decisions when they need to be made...and prince understood this from the very start..

people need to remember that prince came from a city with next to no musicial history...the fact that he did make it is amazing in itself but prince had the talent AND the work ethic to push his way to the top and this is the reason that the guys in the time and the other groups put up with a hard taskmaster like prince because they knew the little guy was special and they all enjoyed success and fame and they owe a huge part of that to him...

jimmy jam and terry lewis were ...in hindsight...were underrated by prince but if he hadnt sacked them from the time...maybe they wouldnt have had the huge success they had as producers/writers.....so although prince's actions were sometimes seen as over the top...he cant be denied that he was right in almost everything he did...and you can see the guys in the time still have a fondness for him despite everything because they know what he did for them all...

PRINCE...a stubborn..pig headed...controlling.....GENIUS

Morris Day has been performing the Time's songs over the years, so I don't see where Prince stopped him from singing those songs. They didn't seem to have a problem opening for him during part of the Musicology tour and also in a performance in Vegas at the Rio back in 2006, where Prince joined them on stage to jam for a little bit.

Secondly, I hope they don't continue to make the situation or decision behind their name change, a major part of their future interviews as a new group now, because then it would become a non-stop sob story and give the impression there may be some underlying bitterness among some of the members of the group, and if they claim they've forgiven him, then walk that talk and move on. However, it doesn't go without saying that at some point they seem to have felt they deserved to keep the original band's name, and some connection to Prince musically.

Now I'm no expert on knowing if under their new name, that if they still sing songs that were sung under the band members' original name, if they have to pay any fees to their former boss for singing those songs. I'm sure some here who has some knowledge on how that type of situation would be/is handled, can give some insight on that. Anyway, there is going to be a special on cable on the Orignal7, on cable sometime this month. So we shall see what more they have to say.

[Edited 12/8/11 18:19pm]

TurnItUp said:

1725topp said:

A lot of interesting comments and questions:

*

Mulefunk said: why did Morris Day get hooked on cocaine and break up/leave the Time?

*

I would only assert that the firing of Jam and Lewis was as much a blow to The Time as Day’s drug use. Of course, we would have to know how much did Day’s drug use contributed to the friction between Prince and Day and Prince and The Time. Do we know that Day’s drug use affected this music or the performance of the music? And while it is probable that Day’s drug use caused him to leave The Time, there seems to be enough information to make it probable that Prince’s dictatorial ways also caused him to leave The Time.

*

Mulefunk said: if Jam and Lewis loved the other guys so much why didn't they write/create a new persona for the group before now?

*

Do we know how much legal control and power Prince had in his ability to keep The Time from reuniting on their own? What is true is that Jam and Lewis continued to use members of The Time for various projects, making their work with Day on “Fishnet” basically a Time project. And has both Jam and Lewis have said, why create something else when they loved the band that they had. It seems that for them the goal and struggle was to do more Time projects, and after so long they just decided to accept the limitations of not being able to use the name and move forward.

*

Mulefunk said: if Prince is Satan Jr. why did they work with him on the hideous Graffiti Bridge/Pandemonium projects?

*

The most obvious reason is money. Two, I think that the members of The Time love being in The Time because of their love for each other and their love for music, despite their issues with Prince. Three, Pandemonium is not a hideous project. In fact, it cooks just as well as the first three Time records and may be more musically sophisticated. And four, lots of people work for terrible bosses. I would bet that most people don’t have favorable relationships with their bosses for various reasons, and I believe that despite having had favorable relationships with most of my bosses. People have all types of reasons for staying at a job with a terrible boss. And when one is in entertainment, the combination of lacking employment security and a love for what one does tends to cause one to remain with a gig, even if there are some serious negatives.

*

HonestMan13 said: If life with Prince was such a living hell then why did Jerome Benton hang around to do another movie, be on the Purple Rain tour, join the Family and subsequently join the Revolution. Jellybean at least said he stayed because he had mouths to feed.

*

For the most part, this is similar to one of Mulefunk’s questions, but helps me make a point. What exactly is Benton’s talent or skill? Where else was he going to find employment or make money doing what he did for The Time and later for Prince? I’m not saying that he is not great at it; he is the reason for Farnsworth Bentley. However, just like Jellybean, Benton needed the money, and he was willing to stomach Prince because it was, after all, living the dream of being an entertainer. Additionally, I never said Prince was Satan, just seemingly egotistical, insecure, and selfish. Even the worst bosses can offer moments when the work can be pleasing, especially if the boss is good at what he does and the employee likes the profession or career.

*

asq said: But if you think about it, Prince wrote, produced and played on practically all of the first four Time albums. He really is the original and most important member of the time even though he is behind the scenes... So for those guys to say OK we're gonna get together and do something of our own without your involvement, I guess I can understand his reasoning for keeping the name.

*

I don’t dispute any of what you are saying. And legally, he probably has the right to do whatever he is doing in this matter. But, it still seems a bit hypocritical for a man to travel the country asserting that he doesn’t do contracts or that he doesn’t like to build relationships on contracts and that he is the victim of Warner Bros., and he then does the same. Secondly, if I understand correctly, the deal was “Party Up” for a band. Do we know if Day has said, “Hey man, I don’t want you singing “Party Up” anymore? Was the trade for ownership? I’ll give you a band if you give me that song? So, shouldn’t either Day or the members of The Time have the same rights and ownership to the name and use of The Time as Prince has to “Party Up”? And, of course, I cannot ignore the legality that Warner Bros actually owns “Party Up,” but my point is that Day has never, to my knowledge, returned and said, “I would like to control or limit how you use my song.” Whether one thinks that Day or Prince got the best of the deal, a deal is a deal; an agreement is an agreement. I’ll give you a band if you give me a song, emphasis on “give.” So, if he gave Day a band, and he wants to present himself as a morally or spiritually enlightened person, allowing them to use their name is the morally right thing to do even if he legally has the right to do something else. (And even more ironic or hypocritical is that Prince seems to be determined to do to The Time what Rick James attempted to do to him. If someone mistreats me, I would think that the enlightened thing to do would be to make sure that I do not pass that negativity to anyone else.) Yes, Prince wrote those songs, but Day and the other members gave life to those songs. Does anyone other than Ike think that Tina Turner should not be able to perform songs from The Ike and Tina Revue? Should Aretha Franklin not perform certain songs that she did not write? How about Luther Vandross? What about Elvis Presley who became the King of Rock-n-Roll having never written a single song in his life? And, yes, there is a slight difference in these situations than Prince and The Time, but coupling my third reason with my second reason causes Prince to seem a bit shady to me—legally right, but still shady.

*

Again, I’m not off the Prince bandwagon. I still love him as an artist, including his current output. (By the way, I like both versions of “Extralovable.”) However, it is disappointing, if not sad, that at this juncture of life and career, Prince couldn’t just say, “Look, I’m not interested in a new Time Project, at least not how you guys want to do it, but, since this is as much you all’s legacy as mine, do with it what you will—just keep it funky.” And while I think Condensate lacks the musical fullness of the other Time records, especially in its lacking use of keyboards to fill the sound, causing most of the tracks to seem or feel a bit sparse, it is a good or solid effort with some real gems.

Go 1725topp: That's what I'm talking about. Have an answer for all these orgers who think they got an answer to everything and want hit you with the hardball questions? Intelligent answers.

DAMN! thats alot of words.........

im sure its all good-does an abridged version exist???

1725topp said:

Of course, for serious, long-time fans there is not much that most of us did not already know in The Original Seven DVD, but after hearing from their own mouths what they endured from Prince I am amazed that they don't hate Prince. I have never been under the illusion that because someone is skilled at something (art, athletics, etc...) that one is also a nice human being, even if that person creates art that articulates sentiments with which I agree. So I am not shocked hearing that Prince was, is, or can be a selfish, egotistical prick/dictator. Again, most serious fans already know most of it. But, having it told from them and hearing the pain and anger in their voices coupled with their joy and appreciation, I find their level of forgiveness and ability to be thankful for what Prince has done for them admirable if not enlightening, especially when we add the fact that they were not allowed to use their own name.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still one of the Kool-Aid drinkers who thinks that Musicology, Lotusflow3r/MPLS, and 20Ten are great to good albums, but combining the inability of The Time to use their name with everything else that was done to them causes Prince's notions and declarations of spiritual enlightenment to fall a bit flat or seem a bit hypocritical. And, I guess that I am just really shocked at how moving or sad I found a lot of the documentary to be even after having known most of the information for the past thirty years. The documentary seems to capture a raw honesty of who these men are, what music means to them, and what they were willing to endure to accomplish their dreams. And even though the documentary is over an hour long, I could have watched another hour of it. The Original Seven DVD provides a damn good view into the lives of men whose entire lives have been driven by the love of music while refusing to allow anything to destroy their connection to each other and their origins.

I still think there's more to the name thing than Prince being a cunt, he's holding out for something, be it re issue's or whatever. we don't know but will do at some point i imagine.

bigd74 said:

I still think there's more to the name thing than Prince being a cunt, he's holding out for something, be it re issue's or whatever. we don't know but will do at some point i imagine.

I think what you say is quite probable, and he has a right not to be more forthcoming if he chooses not to do so. But, his past relationship with The Time causes the name issue to raise certain questions that he, again, is not obligated to answer, but does make me empathetic to The Time and disappointed that it all could not have been resolved better. (And, who knows, maybe all of this is just a marketing ploy. However, if it is, then the members of The Time are much better actors than I thought.)

1725topp said:

rdhull said:

Im talking about Prince the supposed asshole actually gave these dudes a career. If he was such the asshole completely..completely..they wouldnt have been a band, and hence, no dvd of this discussion.

Yes, but did Prince give them a career due to the goodness of his heart, or was he, one, repaying a debt? Does this happen without Day's song?

*

Yes it came from the goodness of his hbeart. Why is that so hard to believe? He could have got some Los Angeles yahoos to fornt some offset funk band if he wanted. He chose his homegrown peers and friends. And he would have created an all male band and female group with or without Day's song. It isn't like Days song was some great catalyst in the Purple Court.

Yall will write dissertations dispelling and dismissing Prince.

1725topp said:

A lot of interesting comments and questions:

*

Mulefunk said: why did Morris Day get hooked on cocaine and break up/leave the Time?

*

I would only assert that the firing of Jam and Lewis was as much a blow to The Time as Day’s drug use. Of course, we would have to know how much did Day’s drug use contributed to the friction between Prince and Day and Prince and The Time. Do we know that Day’s drug use affected this music or the performance of the music? And while it is probable that Day’s drug use caused him to leave The Time, there seems to be enough information to make it probable that Prince’s dictatorial ways also caused him to leave The Time.

*

Mulefunk said: if Jam and Lewis loved the other guys so much why didn't they write/create a new persona for the group before now?

*

Do we know how much legal control and power Prince had in his ability to keep The Time from reuniting on their own? What is true is that Jam and Lewis continued to use members of The Time for various projects, making their work with Day on “Fishnet” basically a Time project. And has both Jam and Lewis have said, why create something else when they loved the band that they had. It seems that for them the goal and struggle was to do more Time projects, and after so long they just decided to accept the limitations of not being able to use the name and move forward.

*

Mulefunk said: if Prince is Satan Jr. why did they work with him on the hideous Graffiti Bridge/Pandemonium projects?

*

The most obvious reason is money. Two, I think that the members of The Time love being in The Time because of their love for each other and their love for music, despite their issues with Prince. Three, Pandemonium is not a hideous project. In fact, it cooks just as well as the first three Time records and may be more musically sophisticated. And four, lots of people work for terrible bosses. I would bet that most people don’t have favorable relationships with their bosses for various reasons, and I believe that despite having had favorable relationships with most of my bosses. People have all types of reasons for staying at a job with a terrible boss. And when one is in entertainment, the combination of lacking employment security and a love for what one does tends to cause one to remain with a gig, even if there are some serious negatives.

*

HonestMan13 said: If life with Prince was such a living hell then why did Jerome Benton hang around to do another movie, be on the Purple Rain tour, join the Family and subsequently join the Revolution. Jellybean at least said he stayed because he had mouths to feed.

*

For the most part, this is similar to one of Mulefunk’s questions, but helps me make a point. What exactly is Benton’s talent or skill? Where else was he going to find employment or make money doing what he did for The Time and later for Prince? I’m not saying that he is not great at it; he is the reason for Farnsworth Bentley. However, just like Jellybean, Benton needed the money, and he was willing to stomach Prince because it was, after all, living the dream of being an entertainer. Additionally, I never said Prince was Satan, just seemingly egotistical, insecure, and selfish. Even the worst bosses can offer moments when the work can be pleasing, especially if the boss is good at what he does and the employee likes the profession or career.

*

asq said: But if you think about it, Prince wrote, produced and played on practically all of the first four Time albums. He really is the original and most important member of the time even though he is behind the scenes... So for those guys to say OK we're gonna get together and do something of our own without your involvement, I guess I can understand his reasoning for keeping the name.

*

I don’t dispute any of what you are saying. And legally, he probably has the right to do whatever he is doing in this matter. But, it still seems a bit hypocritical for a man to travel the country asserting that he doesn’t do contracts or that he doesn’t like to build relationships on contracts and that he is the victim of Warner Bros., and he then does the same. Secondly, if I understand correctly, the deal was “Party Up” for a band. Do we know if Day has said, “Hey man, I don’t want you singing “Party Up” anymore? Was the trade for ownership? I’ll give you a band if you give me that song? So, shouldn’t either Day or the members of The Time have the same rights and ownership to the name and use of The Time as Prince has to “Party Up”? And, of course, I cannot ignore the legality that Warner Bros actually owns “Party Up,” but my point is that Day has never, to my knowledge, returned and said, “I would like to control or limit how you use my song.” Whether one thinks that Day or Prince got the best of the deal, a deal is a deal; an agreement is an agreement. I’ll give you a band if you give me a song, emphasis on “give.” So, if he gave Day a band, and he wants to present himself as a morally or spiritually enlightened person, allowing them to use their name is the morally right thing to do even if he legally has the right to do something else. (And even more ironic or hypocritical is that Prince seems to be determined to do to The Time what Rick James attempted to do to him. If someone mistreats me, I would think that the enlightened thing to do would be to make sure that I do not pass that negativity to anyone else.) Yes, Prince wrote those songs, but Day and the other members gave life to those songs. Does anyone other than Ike think that Tina Turner should not be able to perform songs from The Ike and Tina Revue? Should Aretha Franklin not perform certain songs that she did not write? How about Luther Vandross? What about Elvis Presley who became the King of Rock-n-Roll having never written a single song in his life? And, yes, there is a slight difference in these situations than Prince and The Time, but coupling my third reason with my second reason causes Prince to seem a bit shady to me—legally right, but still shady.

*

Again, I’m not off the Prince bandwagon. I still love him as an artist, including his current output. (By the way, I like both versions of “Extralovable.”) However, it is disappointing, if not sad, that at this juncture of life and career, Prince couldn’t just say, “Look, I’m not interested in a new Time Project, at least not how you guys want to do it, but, since this is as much you all’s legacy as mine, do with it what you will—just keep it funky.” And while I think Condensate lacks the musical fullness of the other Time records, especially in its lacking use of keyboards to fill the sound, causing most of the tracks to seem or feel a bit sparse, it is a good or solid effort with some real gems.

WOW! I'm impressed with how you broke it all down I agree with everything you wrote.

With all due respect to the OP, I also have the dvd and think that maybe we should clarify a few things for those who don't have it..

I get what 1725 is saying about P being somewhat ruthless in pursuit of his vision and how his attitude was often the source of discontent as well his actions being a key factor in the dissolution of The Time but that's only a portion of what the dvd contains. I don't want folks who haven't seen it to get the impression that the dvd is about their beef with Prince...it's not.

It's a real documentary that covers many topics. The fellas discuss their childhood, their musical influences, the history of other bands they were part of, their relationship with each other, their families/children and of course, some really funny stories about being on tour.

They just tell it like it is in a very matter of fact and entertaining way with no whining, moaning or disrespect involved. In the dvd as well as in subsequent interviews, when they are asked, they always give P credit where it's due...they just don't sugarcoat anything or talk in riddles.

So, while you can detect some regret and disappointment about the way things went down, at least for me, what impressed me moreso was the bond that still exist between these dudes despite time, distance and many other factors...some of which were not related to P.

Mostly, I just felt a lot of joy seeing this group of very talented guys reunited and still able to throw down big time without any outside involvement because in my heart, I always knew that they could do it.

babynoz said:

With all due respect to the OP, I also have the dvd and think that maybe we should clarify a few things for those who don't have it..

I get what 1725 is saying about P being somewhat ruthless in pursuit of his vision and how his attitude was often the source of discontent as well his actions being a key factor in the dissolution of The Time but that's only a portion of what the dvd contains. I don't want folks who haven't seen it to get the impression that the dvd is about their beef with Prince...it's not.

It's a real documentary that covers many topics. The fellas discuss their childhood, their musical influences, the history of other bands they were part of, their relationship with each other, their families/children and of course, some really funny stories about being on tour.

They just tell it like it is in a very matter of fact and entertaining way with no whining, moaning or disrespect involved. In the dvd as well as in subsequent interviews, when they are asked, they always give P credit where it's due...they just don't sugarcoat anything or talk in riddles.

So, while you can detect some regret and disappointment about the way things went down, at least for me, what impressed me moreso was the bond that still exist between these dudes despite time, distance and many other factors...some of which were not related to P.

Mostly, I just felt a lot of joy seeing this group of very talented guys reunited and still able to throw down big time without any outside involvement because in my heart, I always knew that they could do it.

There it is.

rdhull said:

1725topp said:

Yes, but did Prince give them a career due to the goodness of his heart, or was he, one, repaying a debt? Does this happen without Day's song?

*

Yes it came from the goodness of his hbeart. Why is that so hard to believe? He could have got some Los Angeles yahoos to fornt some offset funk band if he wanted. He chose his homegrown peers and friends. And he would have created an all male band and female group with or without Day's song. It isn't like Days song was some great catalyst in the Purple Court.

Yall will write dissertations dispelling and dismissing Prince.

Indeed, he was the first of the local gang to make it and gave his mates a helping hand, what's wrong with that.

bigd74 said:

rdhull said:

Yes it came from the goodness of his hbeart. Why is that so hard to believe? He could have got some Los Angeles yahoos to fornt some offset funk band if he wanted. He chose his homegrown peers and friends. And he would have created an all male band and female group with or without Day's song. It isn't like Days song was some great catalyst in the Purple Court.

Yall will write dissertations dispelling and dismissing Prince.

Indeed, he was the first of the local gang to make it and gave his mates a helping hand, what's wrong with that.

And as babynoz said, they're grateful for that. To me none of them seem bitter, they're moving on...

Timmy84 said:

bigd74 said:

Indeed, he was the first of the local gang to make it and gave his mates a helping hand, what's wrong with that.

And as babynoz said, they're grateful for that. To me none of them seem bitter, they're moving on...

1725 and a few others arent.

"See!? Someone said something kind of critical of Prince!! See!?"

rdhull said:

Timmy84 said:

And as babynoz said, they're grateful for that. To me none of them seem bitter, they're moving on...

1725 and a few others arent.

"See!? Someone said something kind of critical of Prince!! See!?"

True...

Babynoz said: With all due respect to the OP, I also have the dvd and think that maybe we should clarify a few things for those who don't have it… Mostly, I just felt a lot of joy seeing this group of very talented guys reunited and still able to throw down big time without any outside involvement because in my heart, I always knew that they could do it.

*

I am glad that Babynoz clarified that the Original 7 DVD is more than the band discussing their issues with Prince. I was assuming that most, if not all, members had seen the DVD and decided to discuss how I felt after hearing from the band’s mouths how Prince and mistreated them. I enjoyed every second of the DVD and would have liked for it to be even longer as I stated in my initial post. However, it did make me sad to hear how Prince mistreated them by removing them from shows and keeping them from writing and producing outside The Time. I don’t know how anybody else interprets that action, but those two things are wrong. And, again, while I do think that the band is grateful to Prince and have “moved on” with their lives, I could still hear some pain and anger in their voices. I can’t say that others did or should have heard pain and anger, but during the closing discussion when Day states, “And we still haven’t discussed our inability to use our name,” or words to that effect, there, for me, is clearly pain and anger in his voice, along with other things that are said during the documentary. Now, I never said that Prince is a punk or the DVD has caused me no longer to like him or his work. I simply stated that watching the DVD and hearing their side of the story does cause some of Prince’s notions about spiritual enlightenment to fall a bit flat to me. However, I should have also stated that since we are all human and are not perfect then I can also say that Prince is like everyone else. We all can be selfish, egotistical, and mean at times, but that still doesn’t mean that I can’t feel sad for what happened to The Time.

*

rdhull said: Yes it came from the goodness of his heart. Why is that so hard to believe? He could have got some Los Angeles yahoos to front some offset funk band if he wanted. He chose his homegrown peers and friends. And he would have created an all male band and female group with or without Day's song. It isn't like Days song was some great catalyst in the Purple Court. Yall will write dissertations dispelling and dismissing Prince.

*

What bothers me most about this statement is the last line. I hate when someone tries to misrepresent what I said and use it for their own reasons. While I don’t post as much as some, if you check any of my posts, you will find that I have written mostly, if not only, dissertations celebrating the genius and significance of Prince. In fact, I’m clear that I’m considered one of the Kook-Aid drinkers who has the nerve to say that I love songs like “Colonized Mind” as much as anything from the eighties. So to misrepresent me and connect me with the group on this cite that spends more time bitching and moaning about how Prince has lost it or how Prince hasn’t been funky since (whatever date they want to assert) shows that you are just reaching at straws for a point or premise.

*

And while Prince always had the idea of starting and writing for new bands, you can’t dispute that Day’s song was the catalyst for The Time, especially given the fact that Day seemingly had the authority to choose the band members. (Notice I said seemingly, which is what most of the evidence shows.) So, it’s not that it is “hard for me to believe” that Prince would help his hometown friends, but it seems to be “hard for you to believe” that other people in the area had talent, that their rivalry pushed Prince to be greater (by his own admission), and that in this specific case The Time was a repayment for Day’s song. And in full disclosure, when I learned of this years ago, probably around 1990, I was disappointed and disillusioned that “Party Up” wasn’t originally penned by Prince because it was my favorite Prince song. So if anyone has reason to dismiss or marginalize Day’s song, it’s me because it was one of the aspects that put a crack in the armor of the “one-man band” myth that I had grown to love. Yet, while I still think that Prince’s own talents probably constitute seventy-five percent of his success, I also realize that very few people make it alone, and most have help from others. Did Prince want to use the guys because he knew them and was comfortable with them? Yes. But, he also knew that they were talented, that they had been doing a lot of the things that Prince wanted to do with the band, and he wanted/needed to repay Day. Repaying Day doesn’t mean that he wasn’t happy to do it, but The Time is created as much as a repayment as also to provide an outlet for Prince, which is what I also said in an earlier post.

*

bigd74 said: Indeed, he was the first of the local gang to make it and gave his mates a helping hand, what’s wrong with that. Timmy84 responded: And as babynoz said, they’re grateful for that. To me none of them seem bitter, they’re moving on… rdhull added: 1725 and a few others arent. "See!? Someone said something kind of critical of Prince!! See!?"

*

It is not an issue of whether I am “moving on” or not. I saw the DVD and commented on it. Prior to this thread, I had never posted anything about Prince’s mistreatment of The Time or his mistreatment of anyone. Again, it would be impossible for you to show that I have a history of being critical of Prince just for the sake of being critical. And I never said that they are bitter. I said that I am amazed that they don’t hate him, that they don’t harbor greater resentment toward him. Maybe they are more forgiving than I am. And while I am more forgiving in my own life, I do hate to see other people mistreated, and just because Prince gave them a break as a repayment for Day’s song does not justify his mistreatment of them. So, based on you all’s viewing, you don’t see them having any residual pain and anger. I watched the same DVD and see that they do. We can agree to disagree on that point just like we seemingly disagree about the importance of Day’s song in the creation of The Time. However, what is not an interpretation and what is a straight up lie is trying to paint me as someone who loves to come to this site and criticize Prince, which is what I think that rdhull is doing. I love discourse, and I am not afraid to be wrong. And in matters where two people can see the same thing and interpret it differently, I can take someone else’s side and consider it or agree to disagree. But to lie about or purposely misrepresent what I said and my intentions means that you and I never have to respond to each other’s posts again because it will be a waste of time because you, rdhull, are obviously not interested in objective discourse but in misrepresenting what I have said so that you can be mocking and dismissive rather than objective.

As usual, much respect to Babynoz, for her comments, she is always on point. I think though, there are many fans who are the ones making more of of this (situation with the name change) moreso than the members of the 07. After watching the special on Centric last night, it seems to me they're more concerned about moving on and playing 'catch-up' in creating music they wanted to do as a returning group with all original members, over the past 21 years, but were busy with their own careers. The special on Centric focused on each member and what they have been doing for the past 20 years in their solo careers, but I didn't get too much on what Jerome was doing with his career outside of performing with M.Day, when Day was still doing shows under the name "Morris Day and the Time".

Other than that, I learned that outside of Jam and Lewis, that Monte Moir collaborated with a few known artists/wrote songs for them and Jesse was doing his thing and has always been seen as the 'rocker' guitar player for the band. Haven't watched the DVD that comes with the cd yet, but at this point, after watching yesterday's special on Centric, it seems to me the guys just want to move on, make music under their new name. I think whatever happened between Prince and the members of the Time is between them and maybe it needs to be left at that, since no one here was present at any of the meetings held between all parties involved, regardng the band's name change, to make a determination on the current status of the friendship/relationship between them.

[Edited 12/11/11 10:41am]

1725topp said:

Babynoz said: With all due respect to the OP, I also have the dvd and think that maybe we should clarify a few things for those who don't have it… Mostly, I just felt a lot of joy seeing this group of very talented guys reunited and still able to throw down big time without any outside involvement because in my heart, I always knew that they could do it.

*

I am glad that Babynoz clarified that the Original 7 DVD is more than the band discussing their issues with Prince. I was assuming that most, if not all, members had seen the DVD and decided to discuss how I felt after hearing from the band’s mouths how Prince and mistreated them. I enjoyed every second of the DVD and would have liked for it to be even longer as I stated in my initial post. However, it did make me sad to hear how Prince mistreated them by removing them from shows and keeping them from writing and producing outside The Time. I don’t know how anybody else interprets that action, but those two things are wrong. And, again, while I do think that the band is grateful to Prince and have “moved on” with their lives, I could still hear some pain and anger in their voices. I can’t say that others did or should have heard pain and anger, but during the closing discussion when Day states, “And we still haven’t discussed our inability to use our name,” or words to that effect, there, for me, is clearly pain and anger in his voice, along with other things that are said during the documentary. Now, I never said that Prince is a punk or the DVD has caused me no longer to like him or his work. I simply stated that watching the DVD and hearing their side of the story does cause some of Prince’s notions about spiritual enlightenment to fall a bit flat to me. However, I should have also stated that since we are all human and are not perfect then I can also say that Prince is like everyone else. We all can be selfish, egotistical, and mean at times, but that still doesn’t mean that I can’t feel sad for what happened to The Time.

*

It's all good. I only threw that out there because I knoooow that some peeps who have apparently taken an oath to defend P's honor to the death will perceive some slight on the part of the O7 and the hair pulling, garment rending, weeping, knashing of teeth and all manner of mayhem will ensue...

Already there's a thread in the associated forum about how the O7 is unprofessional, whining and holding some supposed grudge...wtf?

So I wanted to clarify the tone and scope of the dvd for those who haven't seen it to try and head off some drama, futile though it may be on my part.

Condensing my post the way you did kind of dilutes some of the points I was making though.

[Edited 12/11/11 12:22pm]

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Graycap23 said:

Purchase the cd.

I already have, but the docu only comes if you buy it over there.

Order it on amazon.com

babynoz said:

It's all good. I only threw that out there because I knoooow that some peeps who have apparently taken an oath to defend P's honor to the death will perceive some slight on the part of the O7 and the hair pulling, garment rending, weeping, knashing of teeth and all manner of mayhem will ensue...

Already there's a thread in the associated forum about how the O7 is unprofessional, whining and holding some supposed grudge...wtf?

So I wanted to clarify the tone and scope of the dvd for those who haven't seen it to try and head off some drama, futile though it may be on my part.

Condensing my post the way you did kind of dilutes some of the points I was making though.

[Edited 12/11/11 12:22pm]

I'm really glad that you did explain the entire scope of the DVD because I would hate someone to think that it is just The Time complaining about Prince and miss a solid documentary.

And addressing drama, even now I realize that my final reaction to rdhull is a bit over the top. I meant what I said, but I wish that I would have said it in a more constructive manner that clarifies and evolves the discourse.

Ultimately, I started this thread to express how it saddened me to hear The Time discuss some of their struggles with Prince. In fact, I was, at the time, surprised by how touched or saddened I was hearing the story since it was not new information. But, I understand that when I added what I thought Prince needed to do or should do that those comments would elicit strong response. And I was willing to debate alternative views, but I also became angry when I felt that some (not you) were misinterpreting or purposefully twisting my words. Anyway, I do appreciate your insight and clarification.

1725topp said:

babynoz said:

It's all good. I only threw that out there because I knoooow that some peeps who have apparently taken an oath to defend P's honor to the death will perceive some slight on the part of the O7 and the hair pulling, garment rending, weeping, knashing of teeth and all manner of mayhem will ensue...

Already there's a thread in the associated forum about how the O7 is unprofessional, whining and holding some supposed grudge...wtf?

So I wanted to clarify the tone and scope of the dvd for those who haven't seen it to try and head off some drama, futile though it may be on my part.

Condensing my post the way you did kind of dilutes some of the points I was making though.

[Edited 12/11/11 12:22pm]

I'm really glad that you did explain the entire scope of the DVD because I would hate someone to think that it is just The Time complaining about Prince and miss a solid documentary.

And addressing drama, even now I realize that my final reaction to rdhull is a bit over the top. I meant what I said, but I wish that I would have said it in a more constructive manner that clarifies and evolves the discourse.

Ultimately, I started this thread to express how it saddened me to hear The Time discuss some of their struggles with Prince. In fact, I was, at the time, surprised by how touched or saddened I was hearing the story since it was not new information. But, I understand that when I added what I thought Prince needed to do or should do that those comments would elicit strong response. And I was willing to debate alternative views, but I also became angry when I felt that some (not you) were misinterpreting or purposefully twisting my words. Anyway, I do appreciate your insight and clarification.

Understood...no worries,

There were a few segments that had me a bit full in the heart too. This doc is a must-see IMO.

langebleu said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I already have, but the docu only comes if you buy it over there.

Order it on amazon.com

Available on .co.uk now too.

MadamGoodnight said:

^^^ The Time had their own fans. I know people who liked The Time who weren't into Prince that way. The Time had people dressing like them, dancing like them, & they had their own following IMO. I don't think they came solely from Prince's fan base. The Time drew a new crowd when they came into the fold. Their music was different. Funny that Prince created The Time, wrote and played the music, but The Time was a different vibe, a different movement. I saw The OG 7 recently, and their crowd was vastly different from the crowd that I saw at the LA shows for Prince.

right.

Like I have said before... at the concert I went to back in 82 - 83, most of the people I knew who went to the concert... Black teens, went to see the Time. Prince was a bonus, but seriously... people went have gone to see the Time even if Prince was not there. FACT because I was one of them.

I went to see the Time and so did all my girls who were with me. There were about 7 of us. We and everyone we knew from high school, went to see the Time.

2elijah said:

Graycap23 said:

The Time is Prince's career path if he had decided 2 stay R&b/Funk only.

Agree. The Time was/is Prince, even though they added some of their own flavor/character to the image(s) they presented in their stage performance(s). Now that they're the 'O7', I'd like to see if they will maintain the 'Time' image or change how they present their music and stage presence/performances, now that they claim they are, well.... 'Princeless' and 'original'. I don't know about them being 'original' though, since they still seem to be emulating musically/stage performance-wise, everything as Prince's group formerly known as 'The Time'. Just sayin'. Still love the group though.

[Edited 12/8/11 10:21am]

okay, I know Prince wrote and performed the music. But was it a collaborative effort between Prince and the band as far as the presentation and persona of the live BAND.

Like the suits, the way they dance... which was much different than the dancing Prince did in his own performances. What about Morris's persona as an old school pimp/gigolo. What about Jerome and the mirror because Morris is so cool (and vain).

Were these ALL Prince's ideas? With all this interaction with the band and rehearsals for the shows... were these Prince's SOLO ideas created in a vacuum??

I'm curious... because seriously, these things that I have mentioned was all part of the Time's appeal to people. It wasn't just the music. There were so many funk bands during that time.

But the Time was unique... most black bands who played funk did not dress like that... they didn't dance at all, or if they did, they did the throw back dancing you saw from the Comodores etc.

Think of Atlantic Star, Midnight Star, Zapp, Confunshun, Cameo to name a few. They all played good funk music... but none of them had the personality and connection with the audience like the Time did.

^ Andre Cymone keep on talking about how he helped put "The Time" together and that it was HIS idea for them to wear the suits or whatever.

Other than that, no one really helped their stage show. They already had enough talent to do great live shows.

prodigalfan said:

2elijah said:

Agree. The Time was/is Prince, even though they added some of their own flavor/character to the image(s) they presented in their stage performance(s). Now that they're the 'O7', I'd like to see if they will maintain the 'Time' image or change how they present their music and stage presence/performances, now that they claim they are, well.... 'Princeless' and 'original'. I don't know about them being 'original' though, since they still seem to be emulating musically/stage performance-wise, everything as Prince's group formerly known as 'The Time'. Just sayin'. Still love the group though.

okay, I know Prince wrote and performed the music. But was it a collaborative effort between Prince and the band as far as the presentation and persona of the live BAND.

Like the suits, the way they dance... which was much different than the dancing Prince did in his own performances. What about Morris's persona as an old school pimp/gigolo. What about Jerome and the mirror because Morris is so cool (and vain).

Were these ALL Prince's ideas? With all this interaction with the band and rehearsals for the shows... were these Prince's SOLO ideas created in a vacuum??

I'm curious... because seriously, these things that I have mentioned was all part of the Time's appeal to people. It wasn't just the music. There were so many funk bands during that time.

But the Time was unique... most black bands who played funk did not dress like that... they didn't dance at all, or if they did, they did the throw back dancing you saw from the Comodores etc.

Think of Atlantic Star, Midnight Star, Zapp, Confunshun, Cameo to name a few. They all played good funk music... but none of them had the personality and connection with the audience like the Time did.

I've said this before: Prince may have wrote and produced the songs,it was the Time members themselves who brought this concept to life.Prince would not have been able to do this project with just any group of musicians.Morris' pimp persona is one of a kind.These guys deserve alot more credit for what they brought to the table.

I have mixed feelings about all this. As for the name, part of me wishes he would have allowed them to use the name.

And yes, as others have suggested, the are 2 sides to this story. A lot happened that we do not know about it, so we should not be quick to judge.

prodigalfan said:

2elijah said:

Agree. The Time was/is Prince, even though they added some of their own flavor/character to the image(s) they presented in their stage performance(s). Now that they're the 'O7', I'd like to see if they will maintain the 'Time' image or change how they present their music and stage presence/performances, now that they claim they are, well.... 'Princeless' and 'original'. I don't know about them being 'original' though, since they still seem to be emulating musically/stage performance-wise, everything as Prince's group formerly known as 'The Time'. Just sayin'. Still love the group though.

[Edited 12/8/11 10:21am]

okay, I know Prince wrote and performed the music. But was it a collaborative effort between Prince and the band as far as the presentation and persona of the live BAND.

Like the suits, the way they dance... which was much different than the dancing Prince did in his own performances. What about Morris's persona as an old school pimp/gigolo. What about Jerome and the mirror because Morris is so cool (and vain).

Were these ALL Prince's ideas? With all this interaction with the band and rehearsals for the shows... were these Prince's SOLO ideas created in a vacuum??

I'm curious... because seriously, these things that I have mentioned was all part of the Time's appeal to people. It wasn't just the music. There were so many funk bands during that time.

But the Time was unique... most black bands who played funk did not dress like that... they didn't dance at all, or if they did, they did the throw back dancing you saw from the Comodores etc.

Think of Atlantic Star, Midnight Star, Zapp, Confunshun, Cameo to name a few. They all played good funk music... but none of them had the personality and connection with the audience like the Time did.

I’ll put it this way, so those who think credit is somehow being taken away from the group members contribution to the creative process/the music/stage personas/stage performances, etc, because of the mere mention of their former boss. Rest easy, as their individual contributions as a band is not being taken away from them. At the end of the day, they all deserve credit, including their former boss, for what they all contributed and presented to their fans over the years. This does not mean the Time members ‘couldn’t survive without their former bosses input’. I’m not singling anyone out as to who deserves more or less. I think it's only fair to give credit to all parties involved with the creative input/stage personas/stage performances, they presented to us as a group over the years, and deservingly so. I’m sure that debate could go on forever, but at the end of the day, they all contributed something to the group.

As far as the name change, no one here was in any meeting that may have taken place between all of them, and if the Time members state all is well and forgiven between them now, then so be it. Moving forwarding is all that’s important right now.

Like I said, and I’ll say it again, I'd like to see how the future of the band, from this point on, will turn out under this new name, even though, like I've mentioned several times, they will always be 'The Time' to me (please remember, that’s my personal opinion, not speaking for others), because regardless of the new name, they’re still performing ‘as they were’ and characteristics of their stage personas are still there, and there’s no harm in saying that nor is it a ‘put-down’ to any member of the band, and that comment shouldn’t be taken as a negative.

As far as throwing in other groups from the 70s, we could go even further back and look at the sleek, suave and 'individual' styles of the groups from the 60s, or solo performers like Jackie Wilson, Frankie Lymon, Marvin Gaye, etc., just a handful who had their individual and unique style of ‘pimp/gigolo’ personas, regardless of the ‘type’ of music they sang/or performed to. Nothing new, and that comparison of unique styles of funk/r&b groups of ‘yesterday’ can be saved for another topic.

Anyway, in closing, again, I wish the 07 the very best with their music and future performances. If they choose to ‘take things a little further, creatively with their music outside of the type of music they’re mainly known for', well, I may be surprised, but I’ll still respect them for trying. That remains to be seen and as I said before, I still support them as a group no matter which direction they choose to take their music. Take care now.

[Edited 12/12/11 8:39am]